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This is we're doing a podcast today with Tom O'Neil and Tom O'Neil wrote a book called Chaos and it's it's called Chaos Charles Manson, The CIA and the Secret History of the 60S.

This is a book I can wholeheartedly recommend.

I am I am deep into this book. I didn't quite finish it before Tom came onto the podcast, but it's fucking amazing. I don't want to give away too much of it in the introduction. I just want to tell you, this shit goes deep and it's fascinating. And Tom did a spectacular job and worked on this book literally for 20 years. It's a crazy story. We get into that in the podcast, but I really enjoyed it. And I hope you do, too.

Please welcome Tom O'Neil, government podcast, the Joe Rogan Experience, train my day job and podcast My Life All Day.

Tom, how are you? Good, Jeff, great to meet you, too. I've been deep into your book for the last two weeks and we'll tell everybody what it's called right off the bat. It's called chaos, Charles Manson, the CIA and the secret history of the 60s.

And I think it's safe to say that everything that most people believe that happened during the Manson murders is a tiny fraction of what was going on behind the scenes. And this is what you have essentially been obsessed with this for. How many years it take you to do this?

Yeah, not obsessed by choice. It kind of happened. But in the end, exactly 20 years, we turned in the final manuscript, I think, a day to the 20th year. And this wasn't a personal obsession with yours.

You know, writing an article, let's fill people in that you had the beginning was I was in between magazines and not working. And I got a call from an editor I'd worked with for years. And she was a premiere magazine at that point, which was a monthly movie magazine. And she wanted me to do a story on the upcoming 30th anniversary of the Manson murders, which was 1999, happened in 69. And I was like, no, no thanks.

You know, never been interested. Hasn't the story been written, you know, death? And she said, look, once we talk about it, you're going to see Manson comes up much more often in popular culture than you're aware of. Just trust me on that. And I think that if you look into it, you'll find an interesting story. I go, but, you know, what about the 30th anniversary? There's no angle. And she goes, you've done it before.

You'll find an angle. We had worked together a lot and that began to spiral into kind of madness that finally ended last last year in March when we turn the manuscript.

And that is so crazy. It took that long. I know. I know.

When I was in shutdown five years later. So you never got the you never got anything printed in the magazine? Well, no.

I mean, that's also a little bit of a complicated story, too. I got an assignment to do a normal feature, which is about three months, three and a half months.

So I got it on the day after my fortieth birthday, which is the time in any person's life where you're kind of reevaluating things anyway. So I thought I needed the money and I needed a job. And I knew that I could get into a premier magazine as a contributor on the masthead, which meant a yearly contract because all the people from my prior magazine had moved over. And once I had a good story there and this would have been the first, then I'd be set.

So I agreed to do it. And long story, a very long story short, after a month or two when the story kind of started breaking open and I started finding holes in the official narrative and pursuing them, I had met with the editor in chief, Jim Magos, and he agreed once he saw all of the documentation I had and the evidence which was just, you know, a small portion of what I ended up having. In the end, he agreed to blow the deadline for what would have been the anniversary issue of August 99.

And he started contracting me by the month and that continued for a year and a half. All I did was report the story premiere's dime.

He lost his job because of you.

Well, that was kind of what was whispered around the offices. I never heard that, you know, that was ever substantiated. I'm a little worried that it had something to do with it. He went on to a career that was fine anyway. But when the new guy came in, he demanded the story right away. I mean, I understood that. And at that point, I got a book agent through a friend and my book agent got me out of my obligation to premier.

So Premier essentially paid for you to start your book. Yeah, a lot of money. Oh, my goodness.

Yeah. And that's I'm actually because it was resolved not in the courts, but we all had to sign nondisclosures, so I didn't get entirely away with it for for nothing. But at that point, though, that was I think 2001 or late 2000. Then I was on my own. I had to write a proposal and sell the proposal as a book. So that happened next. And finally in 2005, and when we took the proposal out, it was book length.

That was two hundred and twenty pages. And my agent, who was a big shot at ICM, who was also kind of what I would do it I was seduced people into the story and get them as I was.

I was like, pretend I'm a guy and you're trying to pitch me this book in the beginning.

In the first years, just that. The trial that had occurred that had been prosecuted by Vincent Bugliosi had a lot of malfeasance in it by the prosecution, I was able to document that they planted a former prosecutor on that defense team to sabotage the defense. I found out that two or three of the principal witnesses, including Terry Melcher, who played a big part in this and will probably talk about that at some point, lied on the stand, you know, suborned themselves and in a murder trial.

And if you commit perjury in a murder trial, you could be convicted of murder. I mean, you could be sentenced to a murder. You could get a murder sentence, too, because of that.

So there was about a dozen of those and none of them happened all at once.

So if you committed perjury during a murder trial, you could be sentenced for murder for the same amount of time that someone would get sentence if they murdered somebody.

You are subject to an actual capital. You could be elected. You could be sent to the chair. Wow. And the five people who were convicted of murder in the first trial once had I been around and able to prove this in the early 70s, Vincent Bugliosi and the three people who lied on the stand in a material way, you know, in a very important way, they all could have been tried for that perjury and sentenced to the same or given the same sentence that the people who had gotten the dozens.

Now, I told you that I just got to the 11th chapter of your book. Right. And essentially what I'm getting so far, I haven't finished the book.

But what I'm getting so far is there was some sort of a CIA program where they were explain how they did it.

They they infiltrated these hippie communities and they allowed Charles Manson over and over and over again to get out of jail.

They knew that he was committing all these crimes. And instead of incarcerating careful when we say they, who's they?

Yeah, we have to kind of break it all down. Let's let's break it all down. One of the other things I found out that was very significant was that Manson had a parole officer, his first parole officer, who kind of had given him a get out of jail free card for the first year after Manson was released from prison. And this was Smith. Roger Smith. Yeah. And he was a criminologist in the Bay Area. Manson violated his parole the day that he was released in Los Angeles.

And this is one of the you think it's a little lie, but it's an important lie that Vince Palios he presented not just in a trial, but also in his book, A Trial. It's much more serious.

He changed the narrative. He said Manson had been given permission to travel to San Francisco from L.A., where Manson was paroled. Manson hadn't been given that permission. He just showed up there. They originally were going to violate them, sent him right back to prison, and someone stepped in and took care of that and let Manson stay in San Francisco. And he was assigned to Roger Smith. It took about a year and a half, but through a Freedom of Information Act process, I got his federal parole file.

And those were the kind of seeds of how I found out that Manson had this immunity from prosecution for the two years he was out of prison from 67 until the murders occurred in the summer of 69.

Who I'm sorry to interrupt, but who was Smith doing this for? Who was giving him the instructions to continue to let Manson out and to continue to monitor him?

Well, that's the problem. I didn't get the whole file and the file I got had redactions. He would report to the head office and they would give him instructions and then he would violate those instructions and there'd be no repercussions for him or for Manson. For instance, Manson was arrested in July of 1967, three or four months after he got out of prison when he was under righteousness, supervision for interfering with an officer who was trying to arrest one of his first young followers.

With that, Morehouse, who was 15 and he was put in jail, pled out. So he got a three day sentence, a new probation sentence as well. And all that was hidden like it's not in Bugliosi book. The parole officer, Roger Smith a week later wrote to the head office that Manson was doing fine and he actually recommended that Manson be allowed to go to Mexico and work in Mexico and the head parole office in the United States and says federal wrote back and they said that's insane.

He was the job that he was going to do in Mexico was serving soil for insect insecticides. I mean, it had nothing to do with and I have all these documents showing that who was hiring Charles Manson to survey soil?

It was a company in Nevada which disappeared a couple of years later.

So it was a bullshit company for. I believe so, yeah. What do you think they were doing down there? That said, I don't like to speculate because I can't prove it. All I know is just the fact that his parole officer asked to send him not only to Mexico, but to the country that Manson had been deported from in 1959, the last time he was a free man, he had violated his parole.

Then he was arrested in Mexico. Right. He was arrested in Mexico and brought over by the federales and given over to federal custody for was a drug violation and some other stuff. So why would his parole officer send him back to this place three months after he'd been released? And how do you supervise somebody who's in another country?

Can I make a summary just for people like what the fuck is going on right now? Essentially, what you're saying is that Charles Manson was a part of some sort of a program. Yes. And that through this program, they were using him and using with LSD and all the members of the family, they were turning them violent. And why why do you think they were doing this?

Again, this is where I got a real and a little understand, OK, I have to be real careful about not saying anything that I haven't been able to prove.

What I've proven is that he was getting leniency from the federal government and the law enforcement. First in San Francisco that year, the person who represented the federal government there was his parole officer, Roger Smith, a federal parole officer who was giving him leniency. Roger was also doing drug research at the Haight Ashbury Free Medical Clinic, which opened in June of 67. Manson during that period turned into the Manson that we're familiar with today. You know, the monster, the embodiment of evil as been Williams called him the guru who could control the minds of these followers so he would come into the clinic to see Roger.

Well, he went for two reasons. It was a free clinic. It was at the height of the summer of love, the summer of 67. And he would come in with the women. The girls say about five or six followers then, and they would walk behind him. They wouldn't speak unless he spoke to them. Any command he issued towards them, they would follow. And they became very well known around the clinic. And they were there principally for Manson to see Roger for his weekly parole appointments.

And then the girls were going in for STDs and there were some pregnancies and stuff and they were getting free treatment. That was the summer that the Manson family formed. And then they left in late 67, early 68 and migrated down to Los Angeles and became this killer cult.

It's crazy how quickly this all happened.

It's insane. So I don't understand. We're talking about two years. We're talking about 67. Manson is in Haight Ashbury, 69, the Tate Lubyanka murders and then the trial and then then everything else. Two years. Yeah.

And so you brought up Ann Coulter. Yes.

Ann Coulter was a government program run by the Central Intelligence Agency, originally started as something called Bluebird. In 1948, 49 morphed into artichoke and then in 1952 became MK Ultra. It was a mind control program, a brainwashing program. The CIA was trying to learn how to control people's behavior without their knowledge. Now, this is all came out in Senate and congressional hearings in the 70s. It was exposed, but nobody knew about it until 1974, when Seymour Hersh, The New York Times reporter, put it on the front page of the paper.

So their main objective was to commit to create what they call Heppell program assassins, people who would kill on command, popularly known as Manchurian Candidates, after a book that was written in 1962 and later became a movie and then a movie again, the people would be through drugs and hypnotism. The objective was to get people to go and commit an act of murder against their moral code and have no memory of their programming and be amnesiac even of the act after the fact.

Often that was just one. That was their main goal. But they were also trying to create careers, people, you know, military people that they could implant messages, send them, you know, across dangerous areas where they were at that time. It was the Vietnam War and deliver messages and then have them wiped from their their memory in case they were captured. They had all kinds of objectives. So Roger Smith was supervising Manson when he became exactly what he was able to do, exactly what the MK Ultra program have been trying to create and do.

For at that point, about 15, 17 years, when it was all exposed in the 70s and there were these hearings, first the Rockefeller commission hearings and the church hearings, and then finally Senators Ted Kennedy and Daniel anyway held hearings. The CIA admitted that they had done this, but they no one would say exactly what they did. All the records had been destroyed when the two people who ran at Richard Helms, who had become the director of the CIA in the 60s, and Dr.

Sidney Gottlieb, who was kind of the mad scientist who had supervised all the all the they had safe houses in San Francisco, New York, Los Angeles, where they would experiment on people that were lured into these apartments and houses that were either look look like brothels or hippie communes or whatever. And the people who are working at the Haight Ashbury Free Medical Clinic that was run by another Smith, which makes it a little confusing. But Dr. David Smith, who founded it, he had given an office to a scientist named Jolli West Lewis Jay West who.

Was when when the hearings occurred in the 70s, identified as a top M.K. ultra researcher, he was an academic come out of the military, have been at the University of Oklahoma University, University of Oklahoma, sorry, and then UCLA running the psychiatric divisions. He denied ever being involved in M.K. Ultra. And this was one of the moments I think it was 2001 when, you know, things really kind of shook. The course of my reporting was I learned that West had been at the same place that Manson was in the Haight in the summer, that Manson became exactly what the CIA was trying to create.

And I know actually I interviewed W about seven years before for a story I did about celebrity stalkers, that people who were obsessed with stars and then only to kill them or try to kill them. And he was an expert in violence, hypnotism, brainwashing, and he was the chair of the psychiatry department at UCLA. At that point, he was dead when his name came up in the Manson story. And there wasn't a lot of I mean, I guess there was a lot of Google then or a little bit.

But when I did a little research, I found out that there had been these allegations that he'd been involved in M.K. Ultra. He always denied it. He was never prosecuted, never even investigated. He went to his grave threatening to sue anybody that said he would have anything to do with this kind of a program. Again, through another long story. But I got access to his files, which had been left at UCLA and never they had never been processed.

When I called and when I made the request, it took them two or three months to process the papers. I went through them through the whole summer looking for a needle in a haystack. And it was intuition, gut. I just thought there might be something there. And sure enough, I eventually found it. It was correspondence between Charlie West and Sydney Gottlieb, the doctor that ran and character beginning in 1953 about Kentucky conducting experiments on people without their knowledge to get them to have amnesiacs, amnesia of the acts after they were programmed and everything that he had been accused of and denied he did.

Not only did he do it, he created the blueprint for the whole program with Gotlieb. The fact that all these kind of. Interesting research programs merged at the hate. At the clinic, and then Manson came out of it with the power to do exactly what the NKE Ultra had been trying to create up to that point I thought was worth investigating further. And that's why I kept going and going and going.

They did a lot of crazy shit back then. Are you aware of Operation Midlake, midnight climax that those were the safe houses in San Francisco?

Well, that was the brothel version. Yeah. Yeah. Were they they lured these johns into these brothels and then dosed them up with LSD and studied them. Yeah.

George Hunter White was the head CIA guy and he would sit behind a two way or one way mirror and watch the the Johns would be those with LSD. They tried aerosols or just drinks different things and then they would study their behaviors. Aerosols. Yeah. Aerosol sprays.

Really. Yeah. But that would get the prostitutes to that. No, no.

The prostitutes to get them in there and then they go to the bathroom or something. Or in the bathroom. Yeah. Again the problem is the records are so scant because Helmes or Gotlieb to destroy all the records in 1973 when the two men left the agency. And the only reason anybody ever discovered that it existed was a whistle blower, somebody who used to work for the State Department, who remembered that there were records in a warehouse and they were just financial records from the beginning of the program and 52 until the end and the possible end in 73.

And it was just financial records of where research took place, how much was spent, what kind of equipment was bought, but nothing about the content. The guy that found that ended up testifying to Congress and working with Seymour Hersh to expose it was named John Marks. He wrote the first book about M.K. Ultra that came out in the mid to late 70s called The Search for the Manchurian Candidate. And after he wrote his book, he never, you know, he spoke, did a little bit of a tour and then retreated into obscurity and never would do an interview again until I approached him in the early 2000s.

And when I told him what I had, what I had found in West's files, these documents, he agreed to meet with me at his townhouse in Washington, DC and he told me he said the reason I stopped talking or writing about this was people were camping out on my front lawn, you know, telling me that they had been victims of Ann Coulter. He goes, I couldn't go anywhere in my whole life, became crazy because everybody thought that they were subject to this because nobody knew they did these drug tests on prisoners, hospital patients, johns, hippies, people that had no idea that this was going on for 25 years.

So Marx became the authority. So he had never given an interview till he met with me. And when he looked at my documents at that point, I think I had about 10 or 12 or 15 pages that grew eventually because I kept going back to the files and getting more. He said it was the most unredacted, uncensored account of what the real objectives were and what was really being done. He had never he said if I had had that, my whole book would have been different.

So that's one of the problems about saying, well, how much did they do or how far did they go? There's barely any record. And that's another reason it took me 20 years because I was trying to find out whether or not W had actually interacted with Manson and or the girls. I mean, I knew he was in the same facility. I knew that everybody that worked there because I interviewed everybody that was alive, most of them were still alive back in the late 90s and early 2000s when I did this, they all said, oh, yeah, Charlie was you know, we knew it was Charlie and the girls.

They come in every day or every few days to see Roger and West was their recruiting subjects. Now, West, while he was there that summer, had opened something called what he called the Haight Ashbury Project. And in his correspondence and papers that I found, he called it a laboratory disguised as a hippie crash pad. And and just like the operation Midnight Safe Out, they call them safe houses, which were disguised as, you know, bordellos and that type of thing or brothel's.

These this was an apartment that was decked out or as he called a tricked out to look like a communal hippie place. He had six graduate students and I have his letters to them before they came to work in this. He goes, grow your hair long, wear jeans, dress like hippies and lure people in there. So they ran that for the summer of 67. And West was getting people from that Haight Ashbury free medical clinic on Clayton Street and sending them around the corner to Frederick Street to participate in that.

Good Lord.

And I got the diaries of some of the graduate students who were there, and they are in these diaries said we have no idea what we're really supposed to be doing here. We feel like this whole thing is a. Cover for something else. What does Jolly want? Why is he making us bring these people in?

So I imagine doing that to graduate students, telling them to bring people in and drug them up.

Imagine telling them, well, something I'm sure they because they were also, you know, encouraged to use LSD.

I'm sure. I mean, imagine being a graduate student and this is your project on people.

I mean, that sets up even if you leave that program and go on to do legitimate work, the ethical foundations of your career are set up in such a strange way you're manipulating people against their knowledge.

Well, they didn't know who they were doing it for, and that's why they were always questioning it. So, you know, I don't know how I found one or two of them after and they were very careful talking to me.

I'm sure they probably felt like they were going to go to jail. Well, that's the thing. If any of these experiments or whatever was going on resulted in a death, there's no statute of limitations on murder.

Right? Right. I mean, that's one of the biggest disappointments of my book, is that people like W aren't alive, you know, to answer for the answer to this. And it was really frustrating for me because, again, his name was on the front page of The New York Times in 1977 when they had the major hearings about MK Ultra and identified him as the head of the psychiatry department at UCLA, a very prominent doctor, a researcher.

And he said he had nothing to do with that. He'd never used LSD on humans and he wouldn't. He said they had asked them and he said, no, I have all these letters between him and the guy who was running the program describing how they're going to do it, hide it from his colleagues. When he started it, he started at Lackland Air Force Base. He was running the psychiatry department at the hospital there in 1952 when he was there running that hospital.

That's when he started his experiments on prisoners, human subjects. And one letter to Gotlieb, he says, eventually we have to take these experiments out into the field.

Oh, Jesus. Exactly. What does that mean?

Well, if you haven't gotten through a Chapter 11 yet, you haven't gotten to the Jimmy Shavar case. No, I haven't.

A year after or maybe Jamie did a year after I was contracted with the CIA to do these experiments. July 4th, 1954, three year old girl went missing from the parking lot of a bar at about 11 or 12 at night.

And her parents was a heat wave. They couldn't sleep. They went to the bar. They brought their two kids. They let them play in the parking lot. At midnight, the little girl disappeared. They organize a search party about three or four hours later, they went to a gravel pit and.

To air out to airmen had caller to. Itinerant guys had called the police, the local sheriff, and said, there's a guy here that wandered out of the brush with scratches and blood, no shirt, and he doesn't know how he got here, who he is. The police came. His name was Jimmy Shavar. He was an airman. They did a search and they found the little girl's body not too far away. And she had been raped and murdered by this guy who had no memory of doing it.

The guy had no history of violence. He had a couple of kids and he was a flight instructor at the school. He'd been in the military for a number of years. I think it was in his early 30s. Well, guess who became his psychiatrist in preparation for the trial? Jolli West, who inserted himself into the case and then extracted his memory from him using sodium pentothal, where he admitted to the the murder. Now, in the context of what we found out West was doing and what his objectives were at that same time, it raises huge questions about this.

Was an experiment gone wrong? You know that he was part of one of these experiments at Lackland Air Force Base where he was signed up during the trial. It came out that he had had treatment for severe migraines, experimental treatment at Lackland. That's another, you know, a smaller sub chapter in the book.

But does it describe what kind of experimental treatment he received?

No, no, because nobody I mean, I have all the testimony. There was actually a trial, a retrial and sentencing. And every time it came up, it was really frustrating because he never testified. So it was either his wife or his mother who would talk about it. It was mostly his mother saying, well, all I knew was they wanted him to be involved in this two year study to try to relieve his his migraines. He would have such horrible migraines, he would put his head in buckets of ice water.

The people who described encountering him that night when he was arrested and immediately taken out of the sheriff's custody by the military police and brought the Lachlan and then back to the sheriffs, he was in a trance. The doctors tested him for alcohol because they thought, well, maybe he's drunk, you know, just a little bit of alcohol in his system. But he wasn't drunk. And after the fact, they found out that he had. I mean, I don't want to get into this because it's really getting into the weeds, but he hallucinated that this little girl was a cousin who sexually abused him as a child and he was trying to kill her.

Her name was Beth Reinbolt. All this stuff came out of the trial. Jolly West in 1955 sent a report to Sidney Gottlieb, which nobody had seen. And it was another document I found in his files announcing that he had learned how to develop the technology to remove true memories and replace them with false memories and a human subject without their knowledge, which was one of the main goals, the biggest goals of the Umkhonto program. And again, when the CIA, when they had the hearings in the 70s, the CIA said nothing was successful.

Everything we tried was a failure. It was a waste of money. We shouldn't have done it. And. Not just me, but most experts think that that was a cover that they didn't want to admit that they had developed these technologies that were effective. They also claim that they had released everything they had. I found the same report where West said that he had learned how to replace true memories with false ones without a person's awareness, but they had removed that from the report and then released it to Congress.

So that's a crime right there. You know, so there's a lot of that stuff in the book.

So the speculation is that this guy, through these experimental treatments that they had dosed him up with LSD and experimented using these MK ultra techniques and did that to him and induce some sort of well, this is speculation.

I'll go there for this. The guy had no history of violence, never been arrested with stellar, upstanding citizen. His only problem was he had these horrible headaches. All of a sudden, he shows up by a small girl body who had been brutally murdered with no memory of doing it. A year earlier, Dr. West, who became a psychiatrist within a week or two, possibly had experiences with him before, but there was no record.

When I tried to get the record from the Medical Center at Lackland, his file that his name was Shavar. I think it was as a test I was missing. So where Shaver would have been and the medical records, it was gone. So I couldn't find out whether he had actually participated in any kind of experimental program there.

So is the speculation again, this is speculation that he did commit the crime, that he was somehow or another induced into committing this crime.

Yeah, and again, this is speculation. It's completely circumstantial. The objective was to get people who would go out and do things, not even necessarily kill, that that was the ultimate goal. But to do things against their will, against the moral code. Right.

But how would they know that this child would be there? How would they know? No, no, no. She wasn't targeted. So was it just that they put it into his head to go and something anyone. Yeah.

Something clicked and went wrong. So it wasn't a precise thing. Now, now, now.

Nobody really knew what else. This was the very early days of experimenting with LSD. And in the early 1950s, West was one of the premier researchers in LSD, but he was still new to it. He had actually come out of here first, gained national attention for being one of four or five doctors who treated Korean prisoners of war, who were returned to the United States after they had made confessions of spraying the Korean countryside with illegal biological weapons. The United States said that we don't use that.

That's against the Geneva codes. And these guys were brainwashed by the North Korean Chinese Soviets. So when they were brought back after the war, less than four other psychiatrists were assigned to deprogram them. What a lot of researchers believe is that they actually brainwashed them into thinking they been brainwashed by the Koreans where they actually were telling the truth, because there's a lot of evidence that's come out as recently as five or six years ago that we did use these weapons in Korea.

Boy, you'll double cross.

Yeah. So is the speculation that Charlie Manson was basically just sort of a two bit criminal who had spent most of his life inside the system and had been incarcerated for, what, half of his life?

Something like half of his life when he was released about age 32 and 67, all federal institutions to which was interesting. Even Bugliosi pointed that out in his book. First of all, his mother was a prostitute. She kind of she would get sentenced to jail for petty theft or prostitution and she'd hand them off to her parents or other people. And by the time he was 10, 11, 12 years old, he was stealing cars, committing petty theft and stuff.

So then he was sent to juvenile detention centers and schools, reform schools all run by the federal government. And then when he committed his first crimes as an adult, which was again, car theft, the first crimes require that. But when he stole the cars, he crossed state lines so that it became a federal offense and he got in prison. Much more serious sentences. If it's a federal offense and if it's a state and he do these long sentences back to back to back.

And then every time he was released, he either violated parole or probation and they were actually strict with him in the 50s and early. Well, until 60, when he finally went to prison for seven years, it wasn't until 67 when he came out that all of a sudden it was hands off now. What do you think happened? In prison, did they find him in prison? Well, again, I'll go there with you. OK. And I kind of like what I do in the book is and I got criticism for this, which we knew was a good possibility, as I lay out.

Circumstantial evidence for a case with proof of each circumstance, but when you put them all together, that's the hardest part, is linking them, finding the bridges. OK, what I do is show what the objectives were and either the federal government's case through M.K. Ultra and then other programs, COINTELPRO and Chaos and the law enforcement in Los Angeles and San Francisco at the time.

So MKR ultra began in in the federal prisons experiments on prisoners, famously or notoriously Whitey Bulger. I don't know if you heard about this, but a few years ago it was revealed that Whitey Bulger had been a part of MK ultra experimentation in the 50s when he was incarcerated. And after he was convicted, he was claiming that he believed that all of his violence was a product of what had happened to him in prison when he was experimented upon with LSD through these scientists.

So theoretically, Manson was and the prime place where the experiments were occurring in prisons before he was released in 67 in federal institutions, they couldn't do it.

And did Manson ever talk about any experiments that took place turn? No, no, no.

He he you know, I actually have his not only his federal parole file, which was the hardest thing to get because it had never been released from 67 to 69. But I also have the one prior to that from the 50s to the 60s and all the correspondence. And he would talk about these doctors coming in to examine him and he didn't trust them and he didn't know what they were doing. And this was late 50s. And unfortunately, he never had the first names for the doctors.

There were two. One of them was Dr. Harmon. I can't remember the other one's name. There was a Mortimer Hartman in Los Angeles who was one of the early psychiatrists using LSD in the 50s.

Carey Grant was one of his patients, so. Theoretically. He could have come out of the program. Or the experimentation that began there, but, you know, I hate to even I rather. And again, it's hard to kind of synopsize all this without showing all the documentation and stuff of what was going on and where he was and how everything matches up. But you'll see that when you get through Chapter 11.

OK, so I wish I got to it, but, you know, rush to get that far.

So 1967, he gets out of jail and he how long before he hooks up with this clinic?

So he got out in March of 67. The clinic opened in June of 67. So just a few months.

Yeah. Well, Roger Smith, he was actually living in Berkeley, Mansome was, and he got his first follower, Mary Bruner, and then two or three or four more. And then Roger was the one who suggested that he go to the hate to absorb the vibes. He thought Manson might benefit from the love and peace vibes that were happening in the summer of Roger Smith was his parole officer in 67, but also was his parole officer before that.

Was that proven?

Well, no. Roger Smith. Well, his assistant could you remember that girl? Sedalia told me she was his assistant at the clinic at the Haight Ashbury Free Medical Clinic when he was running his amphetamine study in 68. She said that Roger had told her he met Manson when he was doing probation work in Illinois and. The early 60s, I eventually interviewed Roger several times, and Roger denied that, and when I went back to Girl, she was shocked.

She's like, I can't believe he's denying that that was a connection he made. That's why Manson was able to leave Los Angeles. He was sent to Roger Smith. So Roger could be his parole officer. I was never able to document that Manson had been in Illinois except for three days in 61 excuse me, in 60 when he was brought from Mexico to Texas. And then they brought him to Los Angeles to be violated in front of the judge there.

And he did spend three days at Joliet Prison where Roger Smith worked, but he was there a year or two later. So that was one of the one of the many frustrating moments where everything made sense except for one, but one very important hole, which was, well, they weren't there at the same time, at least as far as the official records show.

So if Smith was a part of these experiments and Smith was also his parole officer and did know him before he did the seven years before he got out, which is when it's speculated that Manson was possibly experimented on and Smith might have been aware of the entire process of it and was supervising him upon his release. Yeah. And so that's why every time Manson got arrested, which should have just locked him up, they would just let him go.

Yeah. Yeah. And Smith, I mean, to give you a little background on Smith, as he told me, he called himself because I was a rock ribbed Republican from the Midwest. And I came out he went to Berkeley, to the School of Criminology to to become a criminologist.

I think in 65 or 66, he was getting his master's and his Ph.D. and his special area of study was in the beginning, gangs, collective behavior and violence, and then how drugs would make some of these gangs that he had, people he was working with, infiltrate students, infiltrate to get information. Yeah, this was in Oakland and the ghettos and like 65, 66, when the Panthers were forming then and 60s late 66, he decided to become a federal parole officer while he was still writing his dissertation.

And he got assigned to something called the San Francisco Project, which was an experimental program run by the federal government to see how different.

Numbers of parole clients, case loads for her parole officer were, you know, you know, super it was about recidivism. So if you had the lowest low was 20 clients, the largest was like 50 or 60. Were you able to super I mean, you would think that 50 or 60 is going to be a lot more difficult, but it always wasn't. So Smith joined that program where he's supposed to be paying much more attention and care to his clients because it's part of a special program called the San Francisco Project.

And in fact, he was I mean, he was he was seeing Manson more than he was even officially supposed to. Things you know, it gets even crazier. After 68, he stopped being his parole officer. He was actually removed and he said it was voluntarily so he could focus more on his drugs and violence research at the clinic. Manson, three or four women followers got arrested in Mendocino. They had lured a couple of young boys into a house, giving them LSD.

Manson had sent them out up to Mendocino to recruit people for the family. The three women were four women were arrested. One of them, Mary Bruner, had the first baby with Manson in the group. And Roger Smith and his wife Carole went up to Mendocino and petitioned the court to take foster custody of the child until Mary was until her case was resolved. So they were the foster parents of Manson's son. I mean, everything was irregular about this, that actually that case is pretty interesting.

So Mary Bruner and Susan Atkins, two women who actually killed four Manson in 1969, were given they were convicted of contributing to the delinquency of minors, illegal drug possession. And without a trial, they pled out. And then there was what they call the sentencing phase, where a probation officer is assigned to decide whether or not they should be sent to prison or given probation, supervised probation. So I got access to their files, pruners and atkins'.

And in the file were recommendations to the court by Roger Smith and his wife saying these are good women, they shouldn't go to prison. Susan Atkins, who, you know, stabbed Sharon Tate.

And is that proven because she said it and then she went back and forth? Is it proven because Tex Watson clearly was a murderer? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

And so she had said that Tex did it. She couldn't do it. But this was later on.

Yeah. Her first her first accounts were that she did it. And then when she testified to the grand jury, she said that she didn't do it. She held Sharon. Weltech stabbed her later in prison. She said that she did do it. Then she changed again. She go back and forth, but she was pretty brutal and. Mary Bruner and Susan Atkins were given probation instead of being sentenced, partially based on Roger Smith's recommendation, Roger Smith identified himself as a former parole officer, you know, with this expertise.

And he said he had known both of them for two years and which was also a lie. He had only known Susan. He could have known Susan for two years. He knew her for about a year. He did know Mary pretty well. And he never disclosed that he was Manson's parole officer. And Manson's identified in these same files as the person who lured these women into crime, that they were his communal wives, that they would steal for him prostitutes themselves, for him and the other people that they interviewed.

The probation officer argued against it, saying they're going to go right back to this guy who's down in Los Angeles and continue the life of crime. But the judge released them.

Now, this was they were doing Charlie's bidding. According to the record. What they were trying to do was recruit people into the family. Yeah. And so they would offer them drugs and and sex and a lot of women and bring them to these parties. And where they screwed up is they got an underage boy who was freaked out. Right. And he was the son of a sheriff.

Yeah. And he said his legs turned into snakes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what they screwed up in that situation. And that's how they got arrested that time. Yeah.

And still they got released. Yeah.

Which is really crazy.

It's there's so many of these instances where Charlie or members of the family were arrested and then it seemed like the police officers who were holding them were being told, hey, you got to let these guys go. There's this is a higher situation is above your pay grade.

Yeah, well, a real turning point in my reporting was after I got access to medicines parole file and saw that. I mean, and Helter-Skelter Bugliosi, I think, describes two arrests that Manson got released on technicalities, you know, shoddy police work or something when he should have been violated. But what he didn't do was talk about three or four more. And if you've gotten up to Chapter 10, you've seen all that stuff later. Yeah. So when I got this record, a pretty substantial record, I took it to someone named Lewis Warnock, who was a retired judge and retired district attorney from the valley out around here, Van Nuys, because I needed somebody with the expertise and the knowledge of how things worked, because you have to look at everything in context.

Things work out differently today than they did in 2009 or 2000 when I interviewed him. But he was there in 69 in the DA's office. I brought the documents to him and we laid them all out on his kitchen table and he's looking at them. And the poor guy was very sick with cancer and talk like this. But I had the recorder going and he's looking at all the documents and he's seeing this pattern of catch release, catch release and he's going to chicken shit, chicken shit.

This is all chicken shit. He goes he shouldn't he should have gone back the first time he goes. They wanted him out. He said he was more important to somebody out than in. He goes, you've got to find out who it was.

And I go up, how do I do that? And he goes, You're not going to be able to that's. He's an informant. I know. But who should I what should I look at? He goes, well, he was working either for local law enforcement, the federal government, the FBI. But somebody wanted him out there doing whatever he was doing. So that was important. Another turning point was a bunch of years later was when I brought similar materials to Stephen Kay, who was Berlioz's co prosecutor in the case.

Couldn't stop you for a second. So the speculation, his speculation was that Charlie was an informant.

Well, and again, an informant has many definitions. It's not just informing on crime. It also can be doing the police's bidding. That's why the CIA split with the CIA or the FBI being a part of a program.

Right. Or they're allowing this. And also there's speculation that the the goal was to try to diminish the antiwar movement and that this guy was a part of the hippie movement. And then so now people would associate hippies with violence and drugs and murder and all this horrific stuff.

Well, I mean, again, this is going into the weeds, but we're in the weeds. I'll try to do it. I know that your podcasts are longer the most.

Well, we can keep going forever. I don't know where you're going to know. I'm not going to regret it. You're going to regret it.

So it's been a while since I've done this.

The book came out a year ago. And everybody I mean, I haven't been getting the calls I got when the book came out. So I'm a little rusty, believe it or not.

You're great. This is amazing stuff.

It's just hard to kind of cover all these lost ground without sounding nuts, without giving context. Yes, I understand in 1967, the federal government started, the FBI started a program called COINTELPRO in San Francisco. They opened their first office the same time Manson arrived there. The CIA started a program like M.K., ultra illegal. I mean, I'm was illegal because they were violating people's human rights by giving them drugs without their knowledge or consent. But they were also operating on American soil, domestic soil, which is against the law in the United States.

You're not allowed to the CIA is not allowed to operate here. They open something. They started a new program called Chaos. Same thing. They began in San Francisco in the summer of 67, authorized by Richard Helms, who was by then the director of the CIA. He had come up since 52, working under Allen Dulles and then John McComb, and he was the one who supervised Gotlieb and then Coulter. So Chaos and COINTELPRO each had the same objectives which were to neutralize what they believe was a revolution.

The revolutionaries that were going to create a civil war in America, the left wing, the anti-war movement, the Black Panthers and the hippie movement who kind of embraced it all. And this all began in the early 60s with Ronald Reagan had become the governor of California. And J. Edgar Hoover was convinced that the free speech movement, which began in the early 60s in Berkeley, had been infiltrated by communists from Russia and China, and they were trying to create divisiveness within the United States to start a revolution.

So Hoover started COINTELPRO and Reagan was involved with that as the governor. And then Helms started chaos. And both of them had informants who were trained. They had something called the Hoover Academy, where they had training programs to turn agents into hippies just like Johnny West for his graduate students. They grew their hair long. They learn the lingo. And then they went and tried to insinuate themselves with with left wing groups, African-Americans, with the Panthers. COINTELPRO would pit rival groups against each other.

And the ultimate goal was to get them to kill each other. And COINTELPRO was exposed in 1970 to one or two after a bunch of kind of radical people raided a warehouse in Pennsylvania where they media Pennsylvania, not far from where I was raised, where they knew that the FBI stored records and then they released it to the public. And it was the record of this operation. And the documents were astonishing because they weren't redacted, because they were stolen and then released.

There are documents celebrating the murder of one of the Panthers became really paranoid by 67, 68. There were all kinds of inner power struggles. And they thought they thought that they they correctly thought that they had been infiltrated and they suspected they were some of them killed other Panthers because they thought they were informants. But they also had a rivalry with different groups like in Los Angeles, the U.S. slaves, which is a militant group, and the COINTELPRO operatives would let the U.S. slaves think they were about to be attacked by the Panthers and vice versa.

And then there'd be a shootout. And when control was was exposed in the 70s and resulted in more hearings, investigations, they admitted to being responsible for instigating, I think, twenty or thirty killings by their operatives, chaos. On the other hand, there's minimal records of chaos. All we knew was it existed from 67, probably till Helms left the CIA in 73, and that their objective was we knew that they were doing surveillance and we knew that they were doing wiretapping and infiltrating groups.

But as far as beyond that, you can't they can't even name the chaos agent. Nobody's ever been exposed because everything was destroyed when Helms left the record.

So these groups were trying to incite violence. Now we get to the motive of the official narrative of the Manson murders, the Taylor Bianka murders, which is what the prosecutor, Vince Bugliosi, presented at trial, which was the famous helter skelter motive.

In a nutshell, Manson believed that there was going to be a race war and he wanted to incite this race war because he had convinced his followers that through messages he received from the Beatles White Album, from their lyrics, from. Biblical Old Testament prophecies that he had been told that he was going to be the savior of the world and once a race war started, he would hide his family in a bottomless pit in the desert. And when the race war ended with the blacks winning, the blacks would be framed for four murders.

They would the Manson family would emerge and repopulate the planet with their perfect offspring and dominate the blacks.

This was Vince Bugliosi. Well, he narrative or there was talk of that.

There was a philosophy of Helter Skelter at the Spahn Ranch where they lived in 68 and 69 that Manson would discuss. But whether or not it was the motive for the murders is I raised serious questions about that book.

Manson would discuss it in that way, that they was going to be a race war and that they would emerge and then their offspring. Yeah, yeah.

Except for the fact that what's so the way Pelosi was able to convict Manson. Manson wasn't at the state House when the murders happened. He had, in the official story, dispatched Susan Atkins, Patricia Krenwinkel, Leslie Kassabian and Tex Watson to the house, the former house of Terry Melcher. They didn't know who lived there, but just to kill everybody. And has Manson allegedly said leave something which he wanted it to look like blacks had killed these? All he knew was they were wealthy, beautiful whites, and he wanted to ignite the race war because if the Panthers got blamed for these murders, then the police would crack down on them.

They'd revolt. The revolution would happen. It would be it would spread across the whole world. And then when it was over and the blacks had prevailed, they were too dumb. Manson believed to be able to run the world. That's when he would come out with his followers of their hole in the desert and take over the planet. Now, Bugliosi said in interviews that I didn't have until after he and I stopped speaking, which was when he started threatening me with lawsuits and other things in the about 2067, I discovered two or three interviews he gave in the early 70s where he was asked if he believed that Manson really believed this craziness.

And Bugliosi said, I don't think Charlie believed in it. He got his followers to, but he never believed in that. He was too smart. He was a con man. What the interviewers didn't ask him in the follow up was, well, if he didn't believe it, why did he send his followers to kill these people? The first night at the Tate house, the second night in Las Vegas, as you know, upper middle class couple, the LA Bianca's, then, you know, what was the motive?

And that's one of my biggest regrets, is that I slept and they were kind of obscure. One was a penthouse interview. The other was a regional newspaper. But that I didn't have them. I thought I had done all the research. I thought I read every interview he'd ever given, but I didn't have it at hand to say, all right, then I get that because I don't think Manson believed it either. Then what was the motive for the murders?

Why were they sent there to kill? And that's what the book explores.

So do you think Bugliosi was operating with the knowledge that Manson was a part of these programs? Oh, that's the big question, yeah. Again, I lay it out in the book, so I interview Bugliosi. He was the first, not the first, but one of the first interviews I did when I was a magazine assignment. He invited me to his house in Pasadena. So it was April of 99. We spent literally six hours together. He was so kind and generous with his time.

I thought I scored. I had the prosecutor hadn't given interviews. He always gave interviews about this, but he hadn't for a number of years. He agreed to do it for whatever reason. And during the course of that interview, you know, I arrived at his house, went into his kitchen. His wife gave me a tie and cookies, coffee and lemonade. Then he and I went out to lunch in the valley somewhere. He showed me some of the sights connected to the murders.

Then we went back to the house and talked till sunset. And towards the end of the six hours, I did realize that even though he was talking nonstop and I'm recording everything, he hadn't given me anything new or different. I mean, I had just finished Helter Skelter. I read it for the first time because I'd never been interested in the case till I got the assignment. So I did what we call the Hail Mary pass in journalism, which is you ask someone if there's anything they could tell you off the record, not for attribution that will help them to get something fresh because I was still searching for an angle.

This is the first month of reporting. And then I kind of thought a minute and think goes, turn it off, turn it off. So I turned off the recorder. And he did I could tell he was debating, but then he told me something which I'm not sure if I don't think I reveal it to the last chapter is off the record was salacious, pretty shocking in the larger picture. It doesn't change anything, really. But it showed me that he had a very different account of something very important in the narrative.

And I took that away and I thought, wow, I'm going to say. Well, first, let me explain. It's it was off the record in 2005 when I interviewed him for the second time and all things went to hell and he started threatening me and with lawsuits and writing letters to my publisher trying to get them to stop the book. He wrote about what he told me and he claimed that I had dragged it out of him and embellished it and all this.

But once he put that in the letter, the lawyers at the publisher said, well, it's not on the record anymore because these documents will all be in a civil trial. When he sued you, which he said he was about to do. Not off the record, you mean? Yeah, they said now it's on the record. I mean, he is he violated his agreement with you. So what he told me was that famously an audio videotape was taken from the state house by the police excuse me, the first day after the murders, they found it hidden up in a loft videotape videotaping home.

Videotaping was relatively new at that point. Not a lot of people had cameras, but Roman Polanski did. And Helter-Skelter, Vigne says in the book that the police took the tape, viewed it, and it was just Sharon and Roman making love and returned it to the loft. Roman was in London at the time of the murders. He came back immediately and then about a week later, he went up to the house. And one of the first things he did was he went up to the loft and he never even knew that they took it, allegedly.

That's a story. I found it and took it. Vince told me originally off the record that the tape wasn't of Roman and Sharon making love. It was Sharon being forced to have sex with two men against her wishes. And he said Roman was the one who was making it because you could hear him in the background.

You know, if you read the Bible, you've read those chapters. Roman did a lot of bad stuff to Sharon.

Yeah, he seemed like a terrible person. His pretty bad.

Well, what you when you hear what he did, the reason why you never come back to the country, you go, well, OK, it makes sense. It makes sense. Yeah. It's not that surprising. He's a monster. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean monster. That's really good at making movies. Yeah. Yeah. Which we're not going to see anymore because the last one he made, which is supposed to be one of his best, they're not going to release it in the United States.

But once I had that, that's kind of the first rabbit hole I went down because I'm like, well, if this was different and the official narrative, what else might they have changed? So Vince and I were talking on the phone about every week for two months. He was so accessible. So I'd be interviewing people. And one of the first things after that that I found was the perjuries by Terry Melcher. On the stand, I found I got access to two separate files and found that Melchor Doris Day son, record producer young boy Wonder who lived in the house with his girlfriend, Candy Bergen and Cielo up until January 1st of 69, then moved to Malibu and Roman and Sharon moved into the house in February.

Melcher was the part of the motive for why the house was picked. And again, this is getting into the weeds. But it's hard to talk about any of this without this exposition. Manson and his followers up there. To instill fear and melchor by killing all the occupants of his former house who were strangers to them, I don't believe that that's the official narrative. But Melchor testified at the grand jury and then at the trial that he had three fleeting encounters with Manson, one of beach boy drummer Dennis Wilson's two there, I think, and then oh, no.

One there. And then two when he went to the Spahn Ranch in April and May of 69 to listen to them play music with the possible possibility of recording them. And he didn't think they were talented enough and told Charlie that in so many words. And then again, this is the official narrative. That's when Manson kind of spiraled and went crazy because he'd been rejected by Terry Melcher. So he decided it was time for Helter Skelter, the race war.

And again, a lot of these things don't add up when you step back. Well, why didn't he killed Terry Melcher at the house in Malibu? Because he knew where he had moved to. Why did he just go to this other place and kill strangers? Maybe Terry wouldn't connect at all that the bottom line was Terry on the stand. And in all the official accounts of this case, of which there are many, not just Helter Skelter, but lots of books, his relationship with Manson ended in May of 69.

He said he never saw him again when the murders happened at his former house. It never occurred to him it had anything to do with him or that Manson did it. I stopped believing that a month or two in and then I found these documents showing that Melcher actually had gone to see Manson twice at the Spahn Ranch after the murders. And then once all the way out at Death Valley, where they had the Barker Ranch where they were hiding when they were finally captured in the fall of 69.

Once I could document that. That changed the whole I mean, it didn't change, but it impacted the most I mean, Melchor was a principal witness again, because Charlie wasn't at the Tate House Madson. Our Bellizzi had to convict him of conspiracy, in other words, ordering people to go up there and kill. And he had to have a reason for that house. So Terry provided it by saying, yes, I did go out there and try to record them and then eventually in the question that came out.

But I never had anything to do with them again. I had no idea.

I never saw him or heard from the motivation was revenge on Terry Melcher because Terry Melcher didn't turn him into a star. Right. So this rebellious he was using. But it didn't make any sense. Right. Because Melchor saw him after the murder several times.

Yeah. And not only even if it did make sense, you're you're right. And that's why I think. Well, I think you could get away with anything then, because the antics of the family at the trial and everybody was so horrified by what was going on, nobody was looking at this critically and questioning stuff, because every day, you know, Manson and the girls are getting thrown out of the courtroom for screaming, for singing or dancing, for mocking the proceedings.

So all this stayed under the radar. But once I could prove that multiplied and then two or three more, then I knew that I had to question the entire narrative. So Bugliosi started monitoring my interviewing. This is all laid out in the beginning of the book. So by the fall of the first year of '99, I got a call from one of my sources, Rudy Altobelli, who was another important witness. He was the man who owned the house where the murders happened.

He was traveling he was traveling actually in Europe with Sharon, who had come back about Sharon about three weeks before to have a baby. And Rudy had told me from the very beginning he was very close to Terry Dennis Wilson. And the third guy, Greg and Greg Jacobsen, was another important witness who lied throughout the whole all of his testimony in the trial to fit a narrative that's needed. Rudy had told me that Vince called him.

Oh, excuse me, Terry called him and said, what are you telling this, O'Neill? No one was supposed to know about that. Vince promised me it would never come out. So at that point, I knew that I was on to something even even bigger. And then I got a call from Vince and he left a message on the machine saying he wanted to talk to me. It was important. So I called him back and he said, you know, I'm hearing I can't remember who told me.

And that was another little game of his. He would never say Trump saying this guy said to me or one of my friends or they say events that someone told me. I heard that you're questioning my tactics and my choices at the trial. Is that true? You know, Thomas, what's going on? Here I go. Well, you know, I'm looking at stuff and and, you know, you knew where this was going.

I mean, I know we haven't talked at that point. We hadn't talked for about six weeks. I think he goes, I want you to assure me that I'll be given the opportunity to answer any of these questions. He goes, because what might appear irregular to you as a layperson can be easily explained by me as well. Of course, Vince, I'll definitely swing back around to you before he goes. And I thought this was going to be out in August.

And we were in like October, I think. Go. Yeah, yeah. I got an extension because, well, they're also saying it's a book and that you lied, that it's not a magazine. So I go, no, no, I'm still getting paid by Primerica. That was at that point. And I had no idea it was going to be a book because we're still in the first six, seven months. So at that point, I we stopped talking, Vince and I, and it wasn't until 2005 when I got my book deal that I went back to him with these questions and I thought hoped naively that I would get him to break down and say, yes, this was all a CIA operation.

I was, oh, god, no. That was stupid. Not me. But, you know, I thought, what else can he say when I put all this in front of him?

But, you know, as he must have been really freaked out by how deep you got into this.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, again, you've read the prologue to the book where we open in that scene in his kitchen where he's screaming and cursing at me and saying he's going to hurt me like I've never been hurt before and he's going to sue me for one hundred hundreds of millions of dollars. That's crazy. Well, when you get to the end of the book, you'll see the outcome of that day. And what happened when he's begging me, he's saying he'll give me a quote on the cover of my book if I don't publish this stuff.

And and then when I wouldn't agree to anything, then the lawsuit threats started happening. So I naively I didn't think he was going to break down and say I was working for someone else. I had no choice. Right. But instead, he was evasive, threatening, screaming, denying he had two recorders.

I had two recorders. He he went off the record every two minutes so we'd have to turn off all the recorders. And Vince was not turning him like that. You didn't turn your back. Oh, no. You didn't turn it off. Wait, and not. That's my record. Now this is yours.

So one minute he's screaming and cursing at me, going, do you have any idea how I'll fuck you if you fucking put this in your book and then the recorders go back on?

But sometimes they were already on because we couldn't keep up with all the off the record. Jeez. Then when I got home that night, so I walk out of the house six hours. Exactly. Almost six hours, just like the first time six years earlier. He's grabbing me by the arm because this isn't quid pro quo. This isn't quid pro quo.

But if you don't put this ridiculous nonsense in, he goes, you know, a blurb from Vince, he always referred to himself in the third person or a blurb from Vince Polio's.

He on the cover of this book, have no idea what that does. And I rarely do it. I'm very selective. I get asked ten, twenty times a day. I mean, the man's ego's you'll see that in the book that I get home that night. There's messages, comic call me and he called me. I think it's a week, week and a half, almost every day. The next morning, a few days later, trying to he would bully me and he'd say, no, no.

You know, look at what this is going to do to my family, my kids. All that went on and on and on.

So it had to be very excited by that, knowing that, like, this is, oh, there's no there's no reason for that guy to react like that unless you had them. I know. I know. And then he knew.

Yeah. So you're a cop. Not a year later, he said when we finally he goes at the very last phone call, which is a week and a half later, he goes, So you're really going to go ahead and do with this. Go ahead with this events. I'm going to report what I have. I go if you want a oh, at this point, I'd like that magazine deal. It ended. I had sold the book, so he knew I had a publisher.

I told him who it was and he asked for my editor's name there. He said, because I will be sending them a letter. He goes, I will work on this letter for hours. It's going to be a complete rebuttal of everything you argued, all of your arguments, all your points. It's going to ruin you. They're going to cancel your deal because they're not stupid. So he wrote the letter. They got it. And I think it was June or July after February of that that year, 2005.

And I got a call from my editor, he said. You got to talk to our attorneys. He goes, we have a letter from Pensacola, I told you it was coming. He goes, it's insane. It's 34 pages single spaced with 50 pages of attachments. And he goes, I've never seen anything like this. So he said, talk, talk to the attorney. So they sent me over to the attorney and he said, my first question, I'd never met the guy before.

He was my first question for you, O'Neal, is, is he?

Suffering from dementia, he goes, I was a law student during the trial and he goes, I follow that trial every day in the paper I've read Helter Skelter. He was brilliant. He goes, I can't believe the person that wrote this letter wrote that book. So maybe you were dealing with somebody who was impaired. I said he's mentally ill. And I have a lot of proof of that in the book. It's not dementia. He's finishing his magnum opus, a 20 year effort to write a book rebutting the critics of the Warren Commission about the Kennedy assassination.

I always got a book coming out, a tour. And sure enough, you know, he wrote, I think two or three more books. After that, I go, he's just I caught him. He goes, all of his arguments don't make sense. He's contradicting himself. The letter goes off in a directions that it sounds like it's written by a madman. And I go, is it going to inhibit us? He goes, Oh, no, we're selling we're opening the champagne here.

I mean, he wouldn't write a letter like this unless you got him.

Yeah, well, it makes sense. 50 pages of attachments.

That was the first letter. Then about six months later, another letter. I think there were four total. I quote some of them in the book. It was nuts. And unfortunately, he passed away in 2015 or 16. And I get a lot of criticism by I mean, you get it from how old was he when he died?

Uh, I think seventy four or five. It was cancer.

I know he was sick off and on for a couple of years, but I've been accused by my critics of not publishing the book until he died because of these threats and whatnot. And I wanted him to be alive. I wanted him to be accountable and have to answer to all this. The reason I didn't publish it when I was going to publish it was Penguin. My publisher canceled my deal in 2011 and then sued me for a return of the advance.

Which cripple? I couldn't. Why did they do that?

Well, the book was due originally in 2008, and then I'm not good with the deadline to figure that out. Well, it's a great book, even if it took you 20 years to write it.

Yeah, no, I mean, they they extended it and then in 2011, they lost their patience. And it was a surprise because I knew that the editor and the publisher of Penguin Press, the imprint who are very serious publisher, is very well known. I knew I thought that they believed in me and understood why it was still taking long. So when I got the call, it was devastating. And then even worse, as a year later, my agent got served with papers and they took me to court.

Well, never got to court. It was resolved, but they sued me for my advance, which was substantial. And I'm not allowed to say anything except that it was resolved because there's nondisclosures.

But let's just say you've I mean, you putting me on here and the advanced stuff you get is help the sales and still not making money because I owe a lot of people money.

So that was crushing and it held up the book because we couldn't take it out and try to resell it until it was resolved. It took about a year and a half to two years to resolve the lawsuit. Luckily, I got a pro bono lawyer. I was busted, broke, and then once we resolved, the lawsuit was about 2016 17, then we could take it out, but we weren't sure we were going to be able to sell it because it had this bad history trailing me.

So from 2011 to 2016, it's in limbo?

Well, it is, except I worked just as hard every single day. And then I was involved with a director and I kind of went in the book Who It Is. But I mean, I don't think it's a secret. Errol Morris, you know who he is. No, he did. Thin Blue Line. Oh, OK. Yeah, he's won an Academy Award for a documentary he made about Robert McNamara.

So they want to make a book about the Errol Elmore's. I think you had a son on Hamilton Moore. Yes. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, Hamilton was he wasn't officially part of this project, but he came to the shoots. Errol approached me. He actually is a writer for Penguin Press, an author there. He writes books too, not too often, but occasionally. And he knew about my book because they had asked him at one point if he wanted to collaborate on it with me when it was when I was struggling with it.

And he said, no, no, I want to make a movie about it. And they said, well, it's not a movie, it's a book. Maybe after so what? My deal got canceled and I was in limbo. I thought, well, I can go to arole now. I'd never met him or spoken to him, but I sent him an email, got his email address, and he called me like the next day. And he goes, Are you kidding me?

He goes, I've always he goes, I was fat because he got my proposal. He I was so fascinated by the story. And I've always wanted to do something on both Manson and M.K. Ultra. So it took about six months of legal stuff because since my book was still owned by Penguin, but the suit was happening and he helped this process, he got them to allow him to work with me on what became and was going to be a Netflix series.

He sold it. He shot out what he called a teaser. So he spent two days and this was 2014 with me one day at my bungalow where he wired it with like fifteen cameras on remote cables and the ceilings, and then interviewed me all day at the house, at my house and going through all my files and everything. And then the next day, his crew took like half of my apartment to a soundstage in the valley somewhere and recreated my apartment.

But then he used all his magical tricks like he had a camera two hundred feet in the air. It was zoom down and spin. It was beautiful what he ended up cutting and putting together. And then in 2015, he changed.

What he wanted to do with the documentary was going to be a six hour series. He had sold it and I had never signed the final contracts because I said it all. You got to give me a clearer picture of what this is. While at one point he decided he wanted to do the story of Frank Olson with my story and Frank Olson and sons, Eric's pursuit of his father's possible murder by the CIA in 1954 because of what he had found out about the Korean POW biological stuff that became wormwood, which I don't know if you saw it was a Netflix series about two years ago.

It's the last thing you know, it's the second the last thing I did. It was his first six part series that happened because I backed out when, you know, I didn't like the direction it was going so well and I fell out over that. We're still friends. And he gave me some pictures for the middle of the book from from the shoot. And he did just just Frank Olsen and Eric's pursuit of it. So that took up like a year and a half of working with him and his people to develop it, and then it all stopped and I actually walked away from money that would have really help me.

But I you know.

I was willing to give him control, but I didn't like where it was going, and I had already invested six years of my life at that point and I just thought, I can't I can't do this. And I still need this to be my vision, not somebody else's. And he was pretty upset and pissed off, but he made another good series that, you know, evolved out of my project. And and at that point was about two, 15, 16.

I just kept reporting and working to get the lawsuit resolved. And then as soon as it did, my agent took it out and he said, before I take out this new proposal, I got a collaborator, Dan Pipe and Bring Young had started working with Prince and Princess Memoires, and then Prince died in the middle of it. And because. Once Prince was dead, all this stuff had to be settled with his estate and had like a year of not doing anything.

So our agents were at the same agency. They put us together. And at first I was apprehensive because he was like 29. We weren't even alive when this happened. And I thought, what this kid going to know about this case and all of this stuff that COINTELPRO chaos and chaos him enough to teach him so much, that's going to take a year. But when I met him and I saw the writing he had done before, I like this guy is perfect.

And he was so we turned it out in a year. Well, we took it out. And Sloan, my agent, said, we've got to send it to Penguin first because. We still have that resolution that hasn't been resolved. I mean, it's all agreed to, but we have to finish what we have to do so they need to know about it. They saw the new proposal and made us an offer for the book, that malarious I know after suing me and trying to I mean, doing everything to ruin my life, they made the first offer and it matched the publisher.

We went with Little Brown. And. I said, oh, gosh, I'm not sure how much I'm allowed to say don't get in trouble.

Yeah, let's just say I said if they just give me a little bit more than little Brown's offering, I'll go with them because it was the same people and they knew everything. I would need to educate little and they wouldn't. And then I said, screw you guys, I'm going to go to Little Brown. I'm really happy with what little Brown did.

Well, that's a crazy route to get a book out. Yeah.

I mean, what it was what did it feel like when you got this, like in your hand?

It's on the bookshelves. It must feel like you gave birth.

Yeah. Or like a giant baby. Yeah.

I don't want to be overdramatic, but I kind of spent 20 years of my life doing nothing but investigating this and trying to bring it to fruition.

And there were so many setbacks and so many times that I was broke and my reporting had hit a wall. And I found out I had wasted three months pursuing one angle that ended up not holding up.

But at some point I thought, what else can I do now?

In good faith, knowing that all this stuff I've done up to this point. Is in the gutter, you know, in the garbage, I can't let that happen, and I knew I had really important discoveries. I mean, my problem was pulling them all together in a cohesive way with a final answer. And my agent started telling me around to that the mid 2000s, you know, you don't have to have resolution. You don't have to have a perfect beginning, middle and end.

You've got so much important stuff that you've uncovered about not just the murders and the trial and the corruption in Los Angeles, but the federal government, the Jolly Westlink Ultra COINTELPRO, all of the stuff he calls.

Just put all that out there, you know, and I never really believe that. And when I finally said, well, I can't I'll do this the rest of my life and have nothing when I made that kind of decision and then took on this Dan, my collaborator, and we literally turn it around in a year. It was like a dream, you know, and then when the book was when I first got the galleys at my house and then the hardcover, you know, a few months later at my shitty apartment in Midcity, that I just I couldn't believe it.

And I thought, right now I can get run over by a bus.

I don't care because there's a document that's out there now. I don't care what happens to me. And it's kind of given me it gave me a freedom, because now that I've done it and it's, you know, on bookshelves or wherever, I can go on with my life, I had hoped to go on with my life without ever having to think about this again. But then, of course, after you get calls, you get emails from people who have information.

There's so much stuff we had to leave out of the book. It's pretty long. It's a lot longer than they originally gave us. And I was telling you a few days ago, they were only going to give me 10 pages of endnotes. You know that we should call your sources at the back of the book. And I thought for more and I got 60. And, you know, that's the most important part of the book because it shows every single document where to get it.

Where I found it, I, you know, add a little bit more of information about why, you know, why it's important with all that out there now.

It's like I feel like I don't have it. I don't really need to do anything ever again. I want to I don't know. I mean, the guy they know that was Jamie. I was telling there's a guy adapting it for Amazon Studios so it could become a film.

Who knows what's going to happen, especially with a series on Amazon, like a series on how we want to.

I wanted a no no. It's scripted. I wanted the documentary, too. You're right.

I think about a film is this is such a long story. I would hate to see them butcher it.

Will you do have friends at Amazon. Will you please call? I don't know anybody. Yeah. No, no, that's by the way, they're not going to listen to me. Well you're pretty good at what you do, but they're going to butcher it. They're going to butcher it. Yeah.

No, I mean I wanted it to be a limited series. That's the way to go. Yeah. Yeah.

And when we made the deal with them, they actually bought it before the book was written. They got a copy of the proposal that we had submitted to a couple of the publishers with nondisclosures. They somehow got it Amazon and made us an offer. And this was when I was really, really broke in twenty seventeen before. I mean, I got a little advance from Little Brown, but let's just say a lot of that had to go to some other people that I owed money to.

So my agent basically said, you know, bottom line is Amazon is going to do a great job, whatever they do with it, and we can't get them to commit to a limited series or feature. And they're leaning towards the feature. If you want to say, I'll only do it if it's a limited series, you're risking losing it. I would say go for it, and then hopefully when they get this massive book, they'll say, oh, it has to be a limited series, they didn't, you know, and the guns are really still trying to do it in the future.

Yeah. Amazon, please. Yeah. The guy who's doing it.

So he came to spend a week with me about an October before he began writing. And he's an established guy, smart, good, and done a lot of films.

And he's like, oh my God. Now I know I took it 20 years. How am I going to fit this into two hours?

I can't make a scene. Well, that's what I said to him. I go, well, you go to him, you know, they trust you.

They'll hear this and maybe they'll listen because I think this can be a spec and I'll help you put this together, put it on Amazon. I'll have people in here. I'll promote it. I think this is amazing. This this story's crazy. Yeah, it's crazy. And I think it's also a really important part of human history. Imagine if the whistleblower had not come forward and we didn't know about my culture and all those documents didn't get well. They didn't find the warehouse where the documents were.

Just imagine. Oh, yeah. We never would have known about lost.

Like nobody say nobody in the program has ever come out and talked about it. I mean, I went to a couple of guys who are still alive, wouldn't talk to me cause, I mean, they always fall back. You know, we sign an oath with the agency, right. If we talk to you without permission and they're not going to give us permission, we could go to prison.

Just imagine what life must have been like for them, knowing that this is what they were doing to people.

Oh, yeah. It's so that's such a strange way to also these people are agents for the federal government. I mean, what kind of precedent does this establish?

Well, most of the people doing the research were subcontracted. Researchers at, you know, medical personnel at prisons. And in the case of Jolli West, he was first in the Air Force and then he was in university settings. And Jolli was you know, once he got to University of Oklahoma, he was experimenting on patients. And in one of his letters to Gottlieb asking for more funding, he's saying working with psychiatric patients actually benefits us because people can't.

I'm not quoting directly here, but he was making the argument that there are weird behavior wouldn't be noticed by anybody at the hospitals because they're psychiatric patients. So these people are getting LSD, which is a pretty powerful drug and other drugs he was using and he was hypnotizing them in some of many of his experiments without without their knowledge and their psychiatric patients. I mean, it's worse than Nazis. Your mind is, you know, the next most important thing besides your soul.

And they're tampering with it. You know, one of Charlie's colleagues, the guy who actually took over the department when Jolli in 69 came out to UCLA from Oklahoma, said to me, because I again, I would do this with people. I would show them all the documents. And he said he always was was one of his best friends. He'd known him for, I think, 45 years when W died in 1990.

But he said to me, Charlie, it doesn't surprise me that he would have done this. This is the Jack Ruby's stuff, which I guess you haven't gotten to yet. Charlie with Jack Ruby, psychiatrist.

Oh, Jesus. It's a whole. That makes sense, too, right? Yeah. Jack Well, actually, I won't spoil it for a photo of Jack Ruby out in the hall.

I did. I was impressed. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're going to get to about 30 or 40 pages on Jack Ruby and Jolly. Well, I just I don't want to spoil it for you or for the listeners if they haven't read the book yet. But Charlie West inserted himself into the Ruby case after Ruby was convicted of shooting and killing Oswald in the spring of 64 before he was going to testify to the Warren Commission. He had never told he had never testified at his trial about why he killed Oswald.

His defense argument was that he had epilepsy and he had had an epileptic fit and shot him and was amnesic of the of the shooting.

Holy shit. Yeah.

So that fits right into the narrative like a key.

Well, this gets better. So W inserts and pull that microphone out towards your face.

Oh sorry. That's all right. So we're just getting to this. Yeah. Yeah I move. So W inserts himself into the case, gets a sign through his connections to Ruby's new lawyer, Hubert Winston Smith, who's a whole other kettle of fish, but anyway goes to the Dallas County jail and I think it was April of 64 to examine Ruby in preparation for not the Warren Commission testimony, which she was giving in a couple of months before his next trial because he had gotten an appeal for a psychic.

Review and West, who had told Sidney Gottlieb in these early letters from the 50s that part of his experiments were inducing insanity and a person without their awareness, West goes to examine Ruby emerges from the county jail and there's press waiting for him. And he announces that within the preceding 48 hours, Ruby had had a psychotic break. That was irrevocable, Paul. It couldn't he couldn't return to sanity. He had audio and visual hallucinations during the exam. He said Ruby hid under a table because he thought there were people in the room trying to kill them.

Told W that he could hear children's screams outside his jail cell as Jewish children as they were boiled alive and well said he's completely insane. That was the day I mean, there was no evidence of Ruby being mentally ill prior to W's exam. West was along with him in the cell and then treated him for about six months when Ruby finally gave his testimony to the Warren Commission. So Earl Warren, Chief Justice Warren, who was head of the commission, flew down to Dallas with Gerald Ford, who was in Congress and on the commission, and Arlen Specter, the young Arlen Specter, who was an investigator for the Warren Commission, who eventually came up with the magic bullet theory.

He called it the magic bullet conclusion. Anyway, the three of them, you know, put Ruby under oath and Ruby babble was incoherent, grabbed Arlen Specter, who was like him, Jewish, and he said, don't you know that killing Jews?

And and they've killed my brother and cut off his legs. I hear them being tortured outside my. So they couldn't use anything less. That was one of his objectives in his uncle to research was to make people induce insanity without a person's awareness.

Was there any contact with Jack Ruby before he killed?

That was again, that was one of the things I can't tell you how hard you know. Oh, you mean black or you mean worse.

Anyone any one that could have done something to get out to kill Ruby.

Ruby, to kill me, to kill Ruby. Ruby had a lot of connections to organized crime and federal.

He was part of which later merged the anti Castro Cuban effort to overthrow Fidel Castro, which was run. It was Operation Mongoose by the CIA. It was an illegal assassination program. Ruby denied being in it. And that's in the book. I found out that again through West Papers that I got access to. Ruby admitted never that he stalked and killed Oswald on the orders of anyone, but that he was working with these people who were suspected of being involved in the assassination if there was a conspiracy.

And he had never admitted that to anyone. It's only in West File and was withheld that.

So let's break that down.

So for people that don't know the the the primary theory of who was responsible, if there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy, and one of the thoughts was that it had to do with some sort of a CIA operation to overthrow Castro.

Yeah, well, there was also the Warren Commission concluded that Oswald acted alone. There was no conspiracy. Allen Dulles Dulles, the former head of the CIA who was fired by John F Kennedy, was second in command to Judge Warren and the commission. Richard Helms, who was actually George W employer for M.K. Ultra, was the liaison between the CIA and the commission. So Helms knew that Ruby, who they call their most important witness in their investigation, the Warren Commission investigation, because he was the one who silenced the killer, there could be no trial for Oswald because he was dead.

So they tried to learn everything they could about Ruby to see if he had had any meetings with Oswald prior or if he had connections beyond the superficial ones to organized crime. Was there something deeper? The commission, which I believe was, you know, a joke from the beginning, it was set to determine I mean, they said in the beginning their objective was to prove that Oswald acted alone. They came up with that conclusion. But after the first intelligence Senate intelligence hearings in the in the early 70s that exposed M.K., ultra chaos, COINTELPRO, primarily the Frank Church hearings, how they found out that Dulles and Helms and others had lied about the CIA's involvement with Oswald and with their own agents who had had these peripheral we don't know if they were peripheral or not, but definitely encounters with Oswald, they withheld all that.

So the House voted to have what they call the House Select Committee on Assassinations that began in 77 and 78. They released their report, which they concluded there was a probable conspiracy to kill Kennedy, that Oswald did not act alone. And, you know, there's lots of books about that. Yeah. And in their findings and then later, the two of the head of the committee, Robert Blakely, wrote a book where he said that that Ruby had acted on behalf of the conspiracy to silence Oswald, that he had stalked him, premeditated the murder, and that the whole thing was part of keeping the secret.

So was w a part of that? You know, again, I can't prove it. I wanted to find out if W had had any encounter or any, you know, interaction with Ruby prior to Ruby committing the murder. Couldn't find that. And that's the kind of thing that maybe there's no evidence, maybe it happened, but there's no evidence.

But I wasn't going to put it in the book and I exhausted every resource I had, you know, because that that one has always been so puzzling for me, because here's this guy that's not connected to the murder, allegedly, and then steps forward and shoots Oswald in front of everybody. Yeah. Sentencing himself. I mean, like, there is no doubt about it. You're the guy who did it. Everyone saw it. You're going to go to jail forever.

Why would you do that?

Well, the first report, which was fabricated by his first lawyer who admitted this years and years later, he told Ruby to say he did it to spare Jackie Kennedy from having to come to Dallas for a trial of Oswald that was made up, made no sense. And then Malcolm Bell I was assigned to the case was I mean, Ruby fired like three lawyers in the first couple of weeks. The Melbourne Ballet took over and took it to trial. And his argument was that he had had an epileptic fit and didn't know what he was doing.

And when he was grabbed by the cops after he shot Oswald, he said, hey, I'm Jack Ruby. What am I doing here? What are you doing to me? Don't you know who I am? Because he knew all the cops.

My argument in my book is it's important. My most important finding is that a CIA contracted agent or researcher for mind control became the most important witness to the Warren Commission. He became that witnesses Dr right before he testified and told his story. I go. That should have been disclosed, obviously, to the commission, but they're not going to say it because it's a secret program.

Right. And then he goes crazy and then he goes crazy.

I got told by a couple of the people who were nobody on the commission would talk to me that was alive when I started pursuing them. Gerald Ford wouldn't talk to me. Arlen Specter, I think I mentioned that to you before. There's an interesting I approached Arlen Specter, who was running for re-election. This was 2002 and told him I had new information. And he said he had always maintained, you know, he he he met a lot of money off of his books about justice and the magic, you know, defending his magic bullet bullet theory.

He always said, if anybody comes to me with new evidence, I'll look at it with an open mind. So I sent him a persuasive letter.

Well, his people, they finally said, all right, if you have these documents showing that this doctor who treated Ruby, you know, and within the 24 hours he lost his mind, Specter will look at them and then decide if he'll talk to you, fax them to us. And at that point, that was 2002. I lost the magazine story and I didn't have a book deal. So I was operating entirely on my own. I said, I can't send this stuff to you because it's my smoking gun.

The letters between Gottlieb and was describing all the experiments. So finally, Specter agreed to talk to me on the phone for a few minutes and it was amazing. He called me from the Senate floor while they were waiting to vote on. Whether or not they were going to invade Iraq, this is 2002. So we were only supposed to talk for a few minutes. And when I explained what I had and what it showed West had, you know, been involved with at the time he treated Ruby, he said, well, if you're not going to send the stuff to me, I don't know.

You know, I need to see it. And I go, well, I can't send it to you. And he said, Well, you want to meet me because I told him I was in Philadelphia visiting my folks. And he he was from Philadelphia, too. He says, I'm there on the weekend. I'll meet you Saturday. I have a squash game at the Wyndham Hotel. Meet me there.

Christ squash. So we had a meeting set up for like three days later. And this is something I'm always second guessing about. I made a decision.

I don't think I got to I don't think I ever really got paranoid during this. But Specter had been a long term senator. He was running for re-election. And it was the first time in his career that the polls were against him, that his opponent was they were predicting that he was going to Specter was going to lose here also, you know, defended this magic bullet theory forever. I mean, more people known for the Kennedy assassination than anything else.

I thought. So if I do meet with him and I saw these documents, maybe it was grandiose to me, too. I thought he's going to go, oh, my God, I need to be part of their, you know, exposure. Because if he didn't and walked away from it, I thought they were important enough that he would know that that would you know, once they were publicized and he had the opportunity to say, hey, we need to look into this and didn't, he would look bad.

And I thought, well, maybe he's going to two things. He's either going to use it for to get publicity, have a press conference and help him in his reelection, or he's going to use it to be the hero of it and run with it before I published a book. And then I'll just be a footnote, you know, to all this, because he took it.

So I canceled the meeting the morning of I called up his press secretary and his cell phone like the three phones I had for him. I said, you have to tell Senator Specter, I am so sorry, but there's an emergency. I've got to go back to Los Angeles. I actually was scheduled to go the day after on Sunday. So it was a lie. And I didn't talk to anyone. I just left the message and I said, I'm so sorry.

But obviously I've worked so hard to get this meeting. It's embarrassing, but I have to go back. So I left my parents place to go to the post office because I had been there for three months. I was actually writing the first version of the proposal at their place to get away from my friends and, you know, all the distractions in L.A. and I was only going for like fifteen minutes ago manof that press secretary calls. I told them I was leaving, so tell him that I just went to the airport and and I apologize.

I can't lie to a press secretary.

I got to so I go to the post office and I come home fifteen minutes later and she's like as white as a ghost.

I go What. And she goes, Senator Specter called. You mean the press secretary? Because I know he called himself. He wanted to know what happened, why you changed your mind and why you were canceling. And I had the light on. I don't lie. I go. But I lied to the senator. You know, he was a big deal in Pennsylvania back then. And so I don't know if that was a mistake on my part.

I think, you know, 20/20 hindsight, I should have done it and taken my chances.

I did what he would have done. I know that's a very powerful man.

And if he thought that he was in danger, you could have fucking driven off a cliff.

I never I mean, I really didn't try to think like that through all those years. I thought like that.

When it comes to Arlen Specter, I mean, do you know how deep that guy had to be in on that to come up with that kind of magical theory so bad, the fact that that actually gets debated and the fact that it never gets brought up, that there were more bullet fragments in Connally's body than there were missing from that bullet. Yeah. And the fact that anyone who knows anything about guns. Right. And if anyone has ever shot a gun is seen with a bullet wound.

A bullet shatters bone wood, it looks like would look at that fucking bullet and think that bullet went through to human beings. Right. Right. And the fact that the reason why they had to make up this theory in the first place was because a guy was hit by a ricochet on the underpass. You know, the whole story behind that.

Well, here's what I did. I tried not to lose myself any more than I had to in each compartmentalize area. I was going into this with the Kennedy assassination. I just did a superficial because like Manson, I was never interested in any thing, so-called conspiracies. Yeah. I had never cared about Kennedy or the John F. Kennedy assassination. But once I found out that West was connected to Ruby and again, that was a moment that I was like, oh, no.

I mean, first it was West and the CIA. And then I'm like, and Ruby, how can I not look at the Kennedy assassination? So I kept my focus narrowly just. On Ruby Oswald, where Spector I looked a little bit of the magic bullet and agree with you, but I never did a deep dive into a lot of that stuff.

Well, they had to come up with that theory because there was a guy who was hit under the underpass and he was hit by a fragment and no bullet hit the curb and the a piece of the curb hit him.

So he had been injured and they recovered that bullet and they realized that that had been a shot that had hit that area. And so then they had to attribute all of those wounds to one bullet. Right. So they had different bullets. They had the bullet that was the head shot. They had the bullet that hit the curb. And then all the other injuries had to be attributed to one bullet. Yeah, not only that, there's a different description of the frontal shot.

There's a shot when Kennedy you see Kennedy grabbing his neck, right? Well, in the hospital in Dallas, it's described as a frontal shot when they fly the corpse to Bethesda, Maryland, they describe it as a trache hole.

Yeah, I've read some of that. There's so much so much about the missing brain. Yes. And then on top of that, the Bullet S. writes a book I know to justify the findings of the Warren Commission. There's a great book called Best Evidence by David Lifton. And that book got me down a dark road when I was in my 20s. That's what got me really freaked out about conspiracy theories in the first place, because I would always thought that conspiracy theories were for dull minded people that didn't spend much time thinking or reading.

You know, they just like they'd like to think that there was a bunch of people just controlling everything was the same way.

Well, then you find out about M.K. Ultra and Operation Midnight Climax and all this different shit. Lobolo this is real. This is definitely real.

Yeah. Like what. And then it makes sense. Like there's video footage of I believe it's, I think it's British soldiers with a dose them up with acid and sent them out into this field. Have you ever seen the video. I have not seen that. See if you can find that, Jamie. There's video footage of soldiers on acid and this is like archived footage of black and white. They did experiments on these soldiers in the 1950s. Yeah, they've been doing it for a while.

I mean, once Hofman had figured out how to make LSD and they realized what it could do to people that they didn't know. Here it is. Watch this. Following footage from 1964 experiment testing the effects of LSD on British Marines. You could see it. You don't have to turn around to it's on the screen right here. So this is in what did say, 1962. So to sixty four.

Sixty four there is December of 64.

So these guys are all wandering around on acid. And so they they dose them up and then they send these poor fuckers out in the field and they're just freaking out and they don't know what's going on.

Where'd you find this. Oh, this is online. Yeah.

Yeah, you could, you could. It's on it's on YouTube. But look at these guys just laughing and these soldiers lying on the ground laughing hysterically, covering their eyes and all archive footage. Wow.

I don't want you to play it now, but is a volume or is it all silent? There's probably a little boy. You don't remember any volume, but look, they're climbing trees and cherry. Yeah. So this is archive footage.

Yeah, right. This is they knew what they were doing to these people and then they filmed them. And this is what they got from Imperial War Museum in London. Original footage.

Well, if we have films like that from our government, you're not going to see them. Of course they were. If they weren't destroyed, they're locked up. I mean, that was another big eye opener for what's kept from us. At one point in 2011, I had a researcher at The Washington Post, a woman there who has been there for years. I could get myself in trouble for this, too. I won't say her name. But anyway, she's very well known and she's their intelligence researcher.

She works with all of the reporters at the Post on intelligence stories, national security stories. And she had someone at the CIA and their information department who would confirm or deny stuff with her. And she said, I completely trust these people. I've been working with them for ten years. I'll ask them about Jolli West and see what they have on them. And I said, all right, before you ask them, don't tell them because she had the documents, I'd share them with her.

Don't tell them what I have proving that he was part of them. Kalicha, just say you're working with an author on a book who wants to know whether because I already done a request and I got we can neither confirm nor deny. Yeah. And she said they don't. They'll tell me the truth, like they're not going to give me a neither confirm or deny. We'll just say we have something and we can't tell you if we can or we have nothing, but we'll get the truth and see what they have.

So a week later she lets me know and she said, they said there's nothing. He never participated in the program. There's no record. And I go, well, I don't want to say her name. I go, well, I don't. I think you should be using them anymore because they're not reliable and you know that because you've seen the documents, so she had to rethink that. I don't know. You know what she did after?

Well, that's that's the way they can embed themselves with reporters by letting me think that I'm your friend. Look, I'll tell you the truth, right? OK, this is it's a complicated world. We're out there trying to keep people safe. And sometimes we've got to crack a few eggs to make an omelet. Right. But don't worry. I'll let you know. I mean, I'm your friend. Don't worry. If there's some wackiness, I'll tell you.

Yeah, that's hilarious. Yeah.

And then I said to her, ask about reports. And we haven't even discussed with Watson. He's the guy that claimed he had infiltrated the Manson family. Oh, you haven't gotten to that chapter. No, no, no, no.

Is that after 11? How many chapters are there?

13, including the epilogue. Yeah. Yeah. Hell of a book. Yeah. I mean, there were a lot of spooky people in and around the Spahn Ranch, in and around the family. And this one guy, Raev Whitsun, who was a spook and unfortunately was dead by the time I started.

People don't know spook is CIA. Yeah. Yeah. And people don't know what that means. Yeah.

I didn't know what it meant before I started this. I don't know. I mean, maybe if I thought about it, but I wasn't interested in the strange terminology.

I know. Yeah, well it's like a ghost. You don't see them. There's no trace, no record. And this guy, that's how he lived. And I had found out about him in my reporting. First, I got to his attorney and then to some of his close friends. He lived in Los Angeles and then he disappeared for months doing undercover work. And he said we never he wouldn't even tell us who he worked for.

But his wife and daughter who were in Sweden and other people who said it was the CIA, he told before he died a couple of years before his death, three or four of his closest friends, including his attorney, that he had worked on an operation and he wouldn't tell them who, but he had infiltrated the Manson family prior to the murders. And it was his dying regret was he could have prevented them, but didn't. He also said that he was at the crime scene after the killers had left, but before the police had arrived, which was like a four or five hour window.

And I was able to confirm not that he was there those five hours, but that he was missing and that the police set up a watch at his father's house who he was living with to try to figure out what was going on. He ended up helping Colonel Tate, Sharon Tate's father, who left his job in military intelligence to help the police in the investigation. He even dressed up like a hippie. He dressed up like a hippie. And so to rave and rave was a really hardcore right wing guy.

I mean, he was racist. And his daughter sent me pictures of him and she said once he died, in fact, this is how serious this guy was. He divorced, reave, divorced his wife, who was a Swedish model. First, he sent her and his infant daughter back to Sweden from the United States in 61 because he thought there was going to be nuclear war. And then in the mid 60s, he told his wife he had to divorce her and he couldn't have any relationship with his daughter because his daughter was his only vulnerability because of the work he did.

That would be how they hurt, even if they lived all the way in Sweden. So the daughter Liza, who I've never met, but we started talking on the phone and she started sending me materials, didn't meet him until a couple of years before his death. He reached out to her, said I couldn't have any relationship with you because of my work, but I want to do that now. So he flew to Los Angeles, introduced her to all of his friends, and after he died, she went to his apartment and went through his things and found a picture of him dressed up as a hippie.

It's in the book. And I mean, it's hard to tell, but it's in a parking lot and the cars are all like late 60s models. So, again, this is one of the parts of the book where I work so hard to try to prove a definite link.

I interviewed probably twelve or thirteen Manson family members and I'd show them that picture and they'd say he look like any number of guys that that came in and out of there. They come for a day to screw us. The women would say Charlie would bring guys in and we didn't know if they were the ones who were providing drugs or who they were. But yeah, maybe or maybe not, you know, and they were all high most of the time, too.

You got to think that Charlie's ability to constantly get out of jail also must have added to his delusions of grandeur because he felt like he was above the law, because he really kind of was.

Yeah. When the sheriff would go under the spawn ranch, he would threaten that. He'd say, I got guys in the hills with guns pointed at you. Yeah. And that's all in the book. And I've got the document in the notes.

And he would give he would give everyone acid and then either take a very low dose himself or not pretend.

So do you think that this is something obviously we're in speculation again, but something that he learned how to do from Smith?

That's the question. What would David Smith and Roger Smith were looking at? Was personality change lasting effects? Of LSD on the personality, and especially David did something, he called it the psychedelic syndrome. He did this study. He was the one who ran the clinic. And it basically gave Charlie West an office at the clinic to recruit people in the summer of 67. And then Roger, he gave him office space there to conduct what he called the amphetamine research project in 68 and 69 at the period that he was still you know, he was they called him the friendly fad in the Haight because everybody knew he was a federal government person, but he grew his hair longer and grew a mustache to try to blend in.

But everybody thought he was a narc, and I guess he was.

But David's line of work after his mice research, which people can read about in the book and mice and violence, was trying to figure out why some people were more susceptible to LSD and having a personality change they were doing. They would screen people that this was volunteer testing allegedly for personality traits. They were trying to find out whether people had precipitating factors in their subconscious. They were actually doing chromosomal studies to taking blood and seeing how the LSD effect the chromosomes and why some people would, after one trip, have a complete ideological change.

They would go from being, you know, normal teenagers or 20 year olds all of a sudden believing in mystical stuff and losing the ego and all the kind of stuff that Manson was trying to find when he was attracting followers who were more susceptible, who were more suggestible. And that was the research that they were doing at the clinic at the time. Another finding in the book. And I wasn't the first one to find it, but I found more evidence of it.

The clinic famously opened. It was nonprofit and it was funded by the government. And David Smith admitted that he took funds. And that's one of the reasons he gave. He told me he gave jollying office. There was Charlie was well known in the research community. He knew that Charlie would attract government funding, but they were only supposed to be a service to runaway kids and hippies and people who couldn't afford health care. They weren't supposed to be doing research.

They weren't supposed to be doing experiments, but they were the entire time. So it was it was sold as a nonprofit health care facility when it was actually a research center for the federal government. And this is interesting. And this could you know, people might think I'm crazy, but it raises questions. My book came out in June, last June of 2019. The clinic was open from June of 67. It closed in September of last year, I think it was.

It shut its doors for the first time in fifty. No, 52 years. Three months after my book came out. Yeah. Oh, jeez. And that's one of the biggest disappointments of the book is, you know, because I couldn't answer the question bit the largest questions, I could only present, you know, a case for why it sure looked like it might have happened this way, that way, the other way. I was hoping that it would be kind of a call to action, you know, that other people would pick up the ball and run with it, you know, and again, maybe it was my naivete, my grandiosity.

The second man, it took you 20 years. Now you're in a rush for these people to take up the ball.

Now, I wanted some serious journalists, especially in the cities where these things took place. I mean, I exposed some pretty serious corruption and the DA's office in 1969 and one of the until the O.J. trial, the biggest trial in the history of the United States, you know, the one that got more coverage than any other trial until O.J. and I can prove that it was fixed from the very beginning when they switched the lawyers and planted evidence and perjury and stuff like that.

A former prosecutor in charge of Sharon Tate or excuse me, of charge of an without without here, and they fired her illegally appointed attorney, brought in someone who would play ball.

Yeah.

And I have the documents and they went to a judge who was complicit, who agreed to this. And I found all these documents in a file that I wasn't supposed to have access to at the sheriff's office, but I got in the back door. So through some of the retired guys that got sick of me bugging them for information. But I thought somebody from the L.A. Times would do it. You know, a follow up, you know, just go to verify, confirm or refute my allegations.

They gave me a pretty good L.A. Times, gave the book a pretty good review, but no stories. I thought there'd be news stories. Maybe I was stupid.

Maybe now maybe San Francisco.

I mean, there hasn't been a story on, you know, the fact that the clinic closed three months after David Smith is still alive. Roger Smith. Still alive. What about are they? I don't want to say we're right if you talk to either one of them, though, since that was the other thing, we were sure we were going to get lawsuits.

You know, little Brown was braced for it. I mean, when Bugliosi, he was already dead when I sold it to them. So they weren't so much worried about his family, although his family, they did say, you know, we could be sued by his family because they own Helter Skelter and they could argue that you diminish the value of helter skelter, which I hope I did. And I'd love to have that argument in court. Not a word, but there are, you know, a dozen principle people in that book, many of them not public figures like Roger Smith.

David Smith, to an extent, is because he became very well known. Not one of them has either threatened a lawsuit, contacted me, the publisher. I defamed a lot of people. And I think, again, thank God I've got the 60 pages of notes because I think they know they can argue the points that I'm making. Everything I have exposed is documented. That's why I was so careful about not putting speculation in the book about not putting stuff in there that I hadn't substantiated or corroborated.

But I don't think the book made a big enough splash for them, helped him out. We're helping right now. Thank you. Thank you. That's what I think. I mean, if I had to guess also the fact that they can't refute any of the facts. Yeah. It's probably better to just let it die. In today's news cycle, things go in and out in a period of days. Like who killed Epstein? He didn't kill himself.

Yeah, right.

Boom, gone. No one cares anymore. covid-19 I Jesus from a lab but might have been in it. And it just keeps going on and on and on. No one's going to think about who killed Charles Manson today. We're worried about quarantining and yeah, I mean, social distancing.

Tarantino's movie came out and there were a ton there's tons of press on on the family members. Where are they now have this or that? And again, I maybe I was just stupid thinking my book, it's all OK. You know, I got a lot of good reviews, a lot of good response, but it didn't do what I wanted it to do, which was to make a change.

Didn't have enough publicity, Tom. I didn't know about it. I didn't hear about it until Greg. Greg told me about it with Wild Eyes.

Greg Fitzsimmons, I should say, my good friend introduced and your good friend introduced me to the thing. And Greg is not a person who pitches things to me. So when he pitched it to me. Yeah. And he pitched it to me full throated, I was like, wow. He's like, dude, it's fucking crazy. Yeah.

And then I got into it for the record, best guy in the world. That's my guy. He's at the end of the book, but he's pissed off because I didn't name them. I just thought I'd identify him as a neighbor who came and consoled me at a really bad point and gave me some good advice. So when you get to the end of the book and I'm the neighbor comes by walking is too little stupid dogs and asked me to ask me if I want to come along.

And he gave me I mean, he's younger than I am and he gave me like a dad pep talk about hanging in there. He's great. I love him. He's the best.

When the book came out and no one did try to sue you or no one did come after you, were you concerned that maybe it hadn't gotten the push that you felt like the subject deserved?

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I was happy because I've never published a book before and they had a team assigned to it at the publishers. And, you know, we got I mean, we got a lot of publicity, but we didn't get newsmaking publicity.

I think part of the problem, Tom, is that it's a deep book. Yeah, it's dense. You got to get into it to really piece like. Yeah, there's a couple of times where I had to go back over things and like try to piece it together and like, there's a lot going on and a lot of people to follow.

I know. I know where we're going to put a character list up at the front.

That's great. Listen, it's worth doing. Yeah. Yeah. Give the juice is worth the squeeze. Yeah. When you get to the where I'm at just beginning Chapter 11, you just like holy fucking shit.

Yeah.

Yeah it's yeah it was frustrating. And again, I mean the bottom line for me was I'm just so happy it's out there in the public realm because that would have been I can't imagine dying with this either being sent into a dumpster or somewhere.

Nobody seeing the stuff, because I think a lot of it is important.

Well, you were pregnant for twenty years. That's what I don't have any kids. So, yeah, that's a good analogy. I gave birth. Yeah.

So let me ask you this. What what is the speculation in terms of Berlioz's connection? Was he given a narrative?

Was did did you do you think that they still want to answer that?

Yeah. So this is. All right. I'll start without the speculative part, something I can prove. OK, he was compromised when he was given this case in 1969. It's in the book he got I mean, he has family out there, but they know about this.

He. Was involved in a couple cases, the first one before the trial that are crazy. I mean, when you see the stuff that happened between him and I, you know, all those years later, it makes sense when you see what he was like before he became famous. So in nineteen sixty five, he had his first child, Vincent Bugliosi, Jr. He decided that he wasn't the father, that the milkman was the father. And back in those days, you're too young to know people used to deliver milk to home.

Yeah, I remember hearing about it. Yeah.

So he believed that the milk man was the father. He was an up and coming deputy district attorney in Los Angeles. And for about, I think, 12 or 16 months, he stalked his milkman trying to get him to take a blood test to prove that he fathered his wife's child.

Jesus Christ, it got so bad that they had to they stop letting their kids take the bus home from school. They had two young kids. They didn't know who he was. He wouldn't tell them who he was. All he would say was I was on the milk. Man had left the job a month after his wife found out she was pregnant. Then his wife then in his delirium, decided that he was fired because he had gotten, you know, clients by people who delivered milk to pregnant.

So he was writing them anonymous letters following the kids. I actually this is one thing I did hear. I heard from the little girl who's now a grown woman. I read about this in my book, and she sent me a letter and she goes, You only got half of it. He said he terrorized us. He said, My father actually said my father had a nervous breakdown. She said he came to my school and picked me up and he took me to a toy store, bought all these toys for me, whatever I wanted, brought me to the house.

And he had a driver and he left me at the end of the driveway. My mom came out and I was like, so happy. I was like five or six years old. I had all these gifts and she goes into the house getting to the house. So what happened was Vince got caught. I mean, he eventually was stalking them. He sent his wife to the house to beg the milkman's wife to get her husband to do a paternity test.

And I've got all this from all these civil depositions when it came when the milkman sued him later. So then the milkman eventually got his brother in law to follow events from one of his statements which put the car outside the house. He sent them letters like they changed their phone number. He goes, oh, I noticed you change your phone number. That wasn't nice. I mean, nuts. So the milkman followed Vance, his brother in law.

They got the plate number, found out who he was and that he was at the DA's office, called his personal attorney and the personal attorney called Vance. And they had a meeting between Venz, the milkman, the milk man's wife and Mrs. Bull EOC, and then admitted that he had been stalking them because he thought it was his wife. He had USDA's investigators calling this guy a material witness in a murder case to follow him, get information, private information.

And so Vince said he would pay them one hundred dollars and never do it again. And the milkman said, we don't want your money, just never bother us again. So that was all about the end of 68, early 69. The DA's office knew about this. He should have been fired immediately. Instead, he gets the biggest case at that point in the history of Los Angeles, the Tate La Bianca trial. This is where we got speculative.

You have a guy like Vince who's compromise. He'll do what the highers up tell him to do. And if you read in the book, Evl Younger was a district attorney at the time. He was a shady guy who'd been in the process, which was the predecessor to the CIA, trained in espionage. I won't say too much. It's in the book. That's where we got speculative. If Vince was answering for something, the explanation is because he didn't go into this case clean, he had to do what he was told.

That makes all the sense in the world.

Yeah. After the Tate La Bianca convictions and 74 Helter-Skelter came out the book, and to this day it's the best selling true crime book of all time. And it's a wonderfully written book. I mean, I could take a page by page and show you stuff that's completely fabricated and made up and that contradicts the real record. But, you know, best seller. And that same year, Vince was going to run for district attorney and the milkman and his wife had never told anyone, I guess.

South side of their family, what had happened four or five years before, but when they saw that Bentz was trying to be the most powerful law enforcement person in the city of Los Angeles, they went to his opponent and said, you need to know this. This man cannot get this job. So they told the opponent and they had a press conference.

So the milkman and his wife went public, then responded by having his own press conference and telling the reporters, here's here's what happened. The milkman, we believe, stole three hundred dollars in cash from our kitchen table when he was on the route. So I was just doing a personal investigation and the reporter said, well, did you hire I mean, did you contact the Pasadena police? Because I just wanted to do it on my own. And then as other people pointed out later, he was doing this.

This was 65. He was doing it through the end of 68. The statute of limitations on theft, burglary, robbery is three years. Would he even if he found out that he had stolen the three dollars, they would have been able to prosecute it. So the whole thing was alive and lied to the media and he lost. So then he lost that election. Then he ran again after Helter Skelter came out for attorney general of California. At that point, the milkman and the wife were going to go public again and say, hey, we have even more to tell about this, which I think is what the daughter wants to tell me.

She actually hasn't gotten in touch with me. After the first email, I said, I want to hear what you have. And she said she has all these documents. But then a woman named Virginia Cardwell said she was going to go public, too. She came out and said, Excuse me. After. Vince told the world that the milkman had stolen three hundred dollars, him, the milkman and his wife filed a civil suit against Vince and Gail, his wife, because Gail also publicly said with Vince in an interview that that's a truth that was all about this petty theft.

They sued them for defamation and they settled and Vince paid them, I think it was 12000 dollars in cash and hundred dollar bills. And, you know, part of the agreement was they weren't allowed to talk about it. They couldn't say they'd gotten any money and he would only give it in cash so they couldn't trace it to him. I ended up getting all the documents. It took a long time, but I got them. Then when they went public again, when he was running for attorney general, they were subject to, you know, being in violation of that.

But they said he can't, you know, then we'll tell everything he doesn't want to tell. He lied under oath and deposition. So did his wife about the stalking. So and 73, Vince had an affair with a woman named Virginia Cardwell. Virginia Cardwell was Catholic. She got pregnant. She told Vince that she was pregnant with his child and then said she had to get an abortion. And she said, I can't get an abortion on the Catholic.

She was a single mother. He said he would set it up. He had a doctor. It was still illegal then.

And he he gave her the money to pay the doctor. And then he called her and she said she had gotten the abortion. Everything was fine. Then he called the doctor, violating Hipple rules. The doctor said, Actually, I've never heard from this woman. I didn't give her the procedure. So Vince went to her house and beat the hell out of her.

And I've got all those depositions, too. He just according to her story, to the police, because she she reported it. He dragged her across the hair, the floor by the hair, sat in her and punched her and punched her again in the face, told her she had to get an abortion. She miscarried. After that episode, she went she went to the Santa Monica police as soon as he left and reported it. And nobody would have known about it.

But a reporter saw it on the, you know, the police wire service or whatever. So the next day it was on the front page of all the L.A. papers that Vince Bugliosi had been accused of, battery of a woman who said that he wanted her to have an abortion and she wouldn't. So Vince went to the police, told them she was lying. She was a client, that he had had one phone consultation with, never met her face to face.

And she was trying to embarrass him because he wanted her to pay him two or three hundred dollars. He defamed her like he did the milkman. He he made up a story. And worse this time, he told that to the police. This was in their investigation of the battery. He lied to the police that it had not happened. But here's what happened the next day after the newspapers reported it and Vince said it was a lie. And he told the police that Vince went back to her apartment with his secretary and a typewriter and he held her hostage.

I know that sounds crazy. It's in the book at the end. How hostage for, I think three or four hours begging her and then bullying her. And he might have hit her then, too. I can't remember to go to the police and say that she had made the whole story up. His secretary was there because once he got her to agree to do it, she rolled up back, dated Bill, the bill for the money and had Virginia sign it.

Oh, my God. So Virginia finally agreed to go to the police. He said, look, you're going to be charged with filing a false report, which is a felony. Well, it's a misdemeanor, but it could go to a felony. And you but I can take care of all that. I've got the connections to the DA's office in Santa Monica, which he did, and he did take care of it. So she called up the Santa Monica Police Department to say she was coming in to report that she had made the story up because she was angry about this money.

And the cops said right away he knew that something was wrong. And the tremor of her voice, he said, will come get you. And Vince was on the other line and she got no, no, no. He saying, no, no, no, they can't come here. So she said, no, no, no, I'm coming. And they said, OK, we'll see you when you get here. And then they dispatched two cops to her apartment.

Now, this had never been public before. I found out it did become public about what happened. Vince got away with denying it. The cop that went to to see what was going on and to get her guy named Michael Landis. He was retired in Santa Monica. I got his name from the reports. He said, oh, yeah. Then was at the house. He wouldn't let us in. He said he and his partner, Robert Steinberg, were there and she's cowering behind them, crying.

And we got her out of the house prior to the station. And she told the the the story that it was fake that and he said, but we saw him. There she goes. You have no idea how. Dangerous he is. I didn't I made it up, please, it was a false report, so she got charged. The next day's papers reported that this woman had come out and admitted that the whole thing was made up. Nobody said anything because the cops didn't talk to the reporters about things being at the house.

And then, you know, he prevailed. He won. Then when he ran for attorney general of California in 76, Virginia Cardwell went public and then then said told the same lie about her. He had never seen her face to face. She was trying to get two or three hundred dollars from him for a phone call or not pay the money for a phone consultation. He lost the attorney general's race when she went public and again with the milkman and mistress.

Then she sued Vance. Same thing. He lied in the depositions. And then when he got caught with the other people who could show that they had been together and there was a history that they had had an affair for like six months, he resolved it and paid her a substantial amount of money to go away. So this was the kind of person who when I told Vince I was writing about this in my book, he's like, well, number one, I can't talk about either of those cases because they were resolved.

And there is nondisclosures and I go to events. You know, that's not true because, I mean, no one, Virginia is dead. She had died, so she can't see you. And she went public and so did the weasel's that the milkman and the mistress. And I wouldn't you know, I'm not interested in your sordid, you know, personal life, but it's relevant because I'm arguing that you committed crimes and the prosecution of the Manson family, suborning perjury, hid evidence, you know, manipulated the defense by planning an attorney.

So if I'm going to, you know, try to make this case and everyone's not going to believe it because you're Vince Bugliosi, you know, this prominent prosecutor, author. Well, I have to show that there's a pattern in this behavior. Not only that you're lying under oath and the depositions in these two cases before you settle, but you also lie to the police and the Cardwell case and you lied to the papers and both. If I have that in my book, then people will be more prone to believe that you do the same thing in the state law Bianka trial that you would, you know, break rules to win your convictions.

Did he have a ghostwriter for Helter-Skelter? You know, he had a collaborator, Kirk Gentry. Yeah. Yeah.

OK, so that makes sense. Yeah.

And I sounds like an insane person. Insane person would probably not be able to make such a coherent book.

I know he had every book he wrote. He had collaborators. He so the Milk Man's wife in her deposition said that when Gail Vance's wife came to her house and knocked on her door and said, please do this, my husband's making me crazy. We know that he's the milkman isn't the father of my my boy, but just do it to make him stop. And the milkman's wife said, we're not we don't want have anything to do with you people.

Just leave us alone and go away. And she goes, You don't understand. My husband is mentally ill. He goes, he'll never stop this. There's nothing I can do to get him to stop at the end of our six hours. I don't remember if I put it in the book, I might not have. He said to me, you know, Gail thinks I have some psychiatric issues and she's been trying to get me to go to a doctor forever.

So, you know, I'm not saying that this is a reason some of this stuff might have happened, but I do you know, I don't even know why he would tell me that. Oh, but yeah.

So I think that he was able to be manipulated because of these loans, because he was so compromised.

Yeah. Yeah. Completely makes sense. That makes sense. Holy shit.

He had a family, a whole other secret family, daughter and a mistress. For the next 30 years I interview the mistress. I didn't put it in the book, you know, I didn't think it was necessary. I guess now I'm telling it. But it actually got reported after he died because the mistress had told a few other people I'd known about her for years. And I knew he had a daughter who was, you know, at the time of his death.

She was in her 30s.

I think now to go back to the Manson killings, what was the motive to to hit that house if it wasn't to Doris Day son? What was his name again? Terry Melcher. If it wasn't to scare Terry Melcher, what was the motive like?

Why did they kill Sharon Tate and the people in that house?

Here's why it took so long to finish the book, to write the book. I had conflicting theories. You know, in the first couple of chapters, I lay out the evidence that it was a drug deal gone wrong. Right. It involved Billy Doyle and Charles Toco and these guys who were dealing drugs out of the house with Voyt. Check for Kaletsky, you know, one of the victims, Polanski's friend, and possibly allegedly Jay Ring the hairdresser.

I lay out that case and then we bleed into the. Part where. Well, wait a minute, what did it mean that Manson had this immunity and why would Terry Melcher. Lie on the stand, I mean, why not say he saw Manson after yet undermines the argument, but I thought the bullet he could have I mean, Manson and the followers did everything they could to get themselves convicted at trial. They didn't put on a defense. You know, they carved axes and therefore had shaved their heads.

The girls skipped and laughed in and out of the courtrooms every day when they finally testified during the death penalty phase. Susan Atkins. Then she said that she stabbed Sharon Tate.

And you think they were dosing them before the trial? I can't go there.

I mean, it makes sense if they're laughing and dancing.

Well, my if we're going to speculate again, I believe that other objectives with personality change, using drugs, hypnosis, et cetera, and making it fix, making it stick, these doctors were trying to learn why some people do. They are precipitating personality factors that made them more vulnerable to using LSD once or a few times and all of a sudden just losing all sense of reality. Not everyone had that experience, but some did. And that research began in 1962 in Los Angeles.

There's a whole chapter, there's a few chapters, but there's a whole chapter that we left out of the book. And what if we do do a follow up? It'll be in there about another guy who's not even named in the book, who was one of these LSD researchers. And you're interested in hyperbolic chambers and all that stuff. Hyperbolic chambers.

Are you mean sensory deprivation? Yeah, well, that's. Yeah, I have one. Yeah. OK, it's not a hyperbolic chamber. OK, well this was always a hyperbolic and no hyperbaric. Is that the same hyperbolic. That's the increased oxygen. Yeah. Yeah. Cover injuries. Yeah.

Well so there was a group it's a fascinating would have been a fascinating chapter.

There was a group of people, artists, educators and but they were all kind of like beatniks and stuff that lived on Topanga Beach in this community that a lot of abandoned fishermen, shacks that had been there when the PCH went up and like the 30s and 40s, there was this whole community of homes, mostly ramshackle homes that were inaccessible except by one road, I think, Topanga Canyon Road. So a bunch of people like migrated there who wanted to they were almost like communal living and.

There were, I think about 30 of them and they renovated them and there were beautiful little places, they all got destroyed when they turned that into a park and I think early 70s or mid 70s. But one of the guys there, Paul Rowan, was an LSD researcher at UCLA doing the same kind of research Wes was doing, but as early as 62. But unofficially, he and I don't know if you know who Oscar Gengar was. He was one of the first doctor psychiatrists in Los Angeles who got LSD from Sandos for his patients.

But there was a group of these people that lived there, and one of them was named Perry Bivins. And he was a diver and he was a trust fund medical student, a lot of money, and he built a hyperbaric chamber and put gases in it. His objective was to try to learn a way to dive. They were all deep sea divers who are a bunch of these guys dive to the depths of people hadn't. Dove to before by learning how to deprive the brains of oxygen for a longer and longer time, they got access to LSD.

They were the first ones. Supposedly civilians in the United States have access to LSD, you know, not through military or CIA experiments as early as 1954 or 55. And then by the early 60s, everybody who knew knew where to get LSD from this community. And Tex Watson moved there who was the main killer in 68 and lived among these guys who were doing this early research into mostly the one guy, Paul Ryan, personality change. It's I mean, it's so complicated about why it's important that Watson was with this community prior to joining Manson and what happened to him as far as his personality change, even before he met Manson, which was the summer 68.

But I guess I'll save that for the next chapter.

So so the the motive, though, to get back to the motive. Yeah. For the official motive was a double. I mean, Bugliosi said in his closing arguments that the main motive was to ignite Helter Skelter, a race war. The motive was to instill fear in Terry Melcher because he had rejected Manson. So you're saying, well, then if it wasn't those, then what was it? Right. All right. If you look at the COOH COINTELPRO objectives, which was to to diminish the you know, to neutralize the left wing movement, to make them look horrible, evil, bad.

And this is what drugs are going to do, your kids. The kind of outcome that this this these murders had was to make the hippies the boogeyman, I mean, the biggest boogeyman in the United States history, I don't know forever, but at least until the 70s became Charlie Manson. And when Manson was and his family were identified as suspects the first week of December 69, I mean, it was like earthshaking because all of a sudden nobody knew who had committed the murders, that the case was open from August 1st to December.

You have photos on the front page of every paper in the world of these hippie women, you know, nursing children living communally who are accused of these horrible, brutal slayings.

And the argument was and what the reporters were reporting was they had gone crazy on LSD and free love and that hippie ethic. And that was the same thing, chaos and control people were trying to do. They were trying to damage the youth revolution, the youth. Why do you think they targeted that house, though?

Uh. So Jagga Hoover, when he had the COINTELPRO operation, he wrote an excuse me, an L.A. agent wrote a memo to Hoover saying, What we have to do this is when they were mostly battling the Panther. I mean, trying to neutralize the Panthers in L.A. was go after the whites, the elite whites, the Hollywood whites who are supporting the Panthers or something called the White Panther Party that began in L.A., 67 or 68. Jane Fonda, Warren Beatty, Cass Elliot, those three were actually under surveillance by the FBI.

They were part of this group, Donald Sutherland, and they were basically a support Leonard Bernstein. They supported the Panthers. They raise money. So in this one memo, which I think it was the winter of 68, it's I got the date in the book said that what we have to make the whites think is that when the revolution finally happens, when the blacks rise up, they'll be lined up with everybody else and slaughtered. So if you look at that memo that was part of their operation, which was to they did it by sending letters, making, you know, the white scare.

And so that I hate to speculate, but I think people will draw that conclusion. If you read the book that this could have been a chaos or COINTELPRO operation to.

Turn, you know, the world, the nation, the culture against hippies, the left wing, the Black Panthers, and they picked that house because it was high profile, because Sharon Tate was in it actually when Sharon Tate was there with her and Polanski.

And that's one thing that Tarantino I don't think he showed the parties at the house. They were like the social center of Hollywood. It wasn't just the movie people. It was the music people. And Terry Melcher and Candy Bergen lived there for two years before that was a party house.

Everybody went in and out of there, kind of represented the elite of of of movies, music, Hollywood, you know, white people.

So that would have been a very high-Profile place to target, because all the people in that community, in the Hollywood community would then also be aware that that was a spot that they had been to all these high-Profile people had been there.

Yeah, it's like Joan Didion wrote in her book, The White Album, that the morning she learned about the murders and she knew most of the victims, she goes, it occurred. She goes, I knew that the 60s had ended. They were over. I mean, there was also Altamont and I mean, not a whole lot else, but that was like a cultural watershed moment.

But the La Bianca killings were fairly random. Yeah. And that's a regret I have.

That house was just up for sale, you know. Yeah. Just really recently I heard really cheap. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they changed the number on the street still.

Yeah. Yeah. Not, not this yellow house.

I know the lobby of the House. What really drives Bill is. Yeah.

Oddly enough I knew it was for sale so I was really interested not to buy it, but I was like, wow, that's crazy. Like imagine someone buying the house where that the killings took place. But it was so long ago. Yeah. It wouldn't be that creepy for some.

We know the house on the other side is the former convent that Katy Perry's been fighting in court with the nuns of the church to buy. This has been going on for a couple of years. I don't know if it's been stolen by a convent. Yeah, yeah.

It's a it's a big, beautiful home that have been turned into a convent like a retirement home for nuns. And when the church really hit hard times financially, they told the nuns they were going to have to leave there because they were selling it. So the church, I think, sold it to Katy Perry and then some of the nuns hired a lawyer because they didn't want to leave. I can't I mean, I didn't look too closely at it, but I just know that the whole thing is in dispute that's there.

And that's on the other side of the lobby. Bianka House. Oh, wow. So the whole area is haunted.

So did they did they target the lobby house for any reason? All right.

So the book is about 500 pages long. Five hundred pages long. I didn't put anything in there about the lobby case and what I learned.

We also, you know, withheld our chapters on the RFQ assassination.

So, Jesus, you know, that's all connected to it's twenty years of reporting.

I mean, in the Sahan assassination of Robert Kennedy, it was the same cops investigated at same district attorney's office, prosecuted it. And if you want to take a deep dive into that, you know, Soren's amnesia of how he ended up in the pantry that Jesus Christ.

But I actually filmed an episode of Fear Factor at that hotel. Oh, yeah. Hotels being used now for that. And I walk through that pantry. Yeah.

Know you can see the very area. I was there, too, you know, it's torn down now. They made it public. I mean, they built a public school, but there is a crucifix carved into the floor, the cement floor where Robert Kennedy, Robert Kennedy fell. Oh Jesus. Yeah. So I think I remember that somehow.

Yeah.

So the stuff we kept out about our graphic that'll be in the next book if we do it. But there's incredible power. Oh, you're doing another book, Tom. I don't want to be Tom.

Have 20 more years to live, man. I know one thing. I wouldn't do it without my collaborator because he speeds it. I'll get. Yeah, you get it done in four.

You've got so much information already, right? Yeah.

So the lobbying could killings of the lobby and the killings. Again, this is stuff the vents kept out. And again, the reason the book so hard to write is one theory would conflict with another. Right. So if the Tates were killed for, you know, cause COINTELPRO high profile neutralize a left or a drug deal gone wrong, what about the LA Bianca's? Well, the LA Bianca's were an upper middle class couple that lived in Los Villas and then wrote in the book that they were randomly targeted because.

Manson had been to the house next door quite a bit when someone named Harold Truelove there and knew the layout and supposedly went to kill Harold, who first got to Harold TRUEs House, which was empty, and then went next door tied up the lobby. And a couple left the House and Senate techs and Tex Watson and Patricia Krenwinkel and Leslie Van Houten in to kill them. What Vince wrote about what the investigators found out was that Lenno, the father, had gambling debts.

He also had embezzled 200000 dollars from his family company and the original investigation. The two teens were separate. The LAPD assigned to different units, one of the tape murders, which was much larger, and one of the law, Beanca. And they announced within a couple of days that even though the crime scenes were similar, you know, same weapon, multiple stab wounds, blood writing on the wall, pig, pig. They didn't think they were connected.

They thought that somebody had done a copycat of the first night's murders to throw off investigators. I make an argument in the book that I think the police knew exactly who did both murders from very right away. It'll be too long to get into here, but all the evidence that I accumulated is in there. And I'm not the first one to say that, but. So then why were the law Bianco's killed?

You know, what Vince kept out of the book was not only was, you know, Lenno in debt to his family, but he had a meeting on August 9th with his family that they had told him he had to come in his two brothers in law and his mother, who operated the Gateway Shop. It was called Gateway Markets. They had a string of supermarkets that was pretty well to do, except that Lionel kept stealing all the money. They had a meeting on August 9th where they were going to make them sign over all his shares, leave the family business.

And on August 9th, he didn't show up. He went with his wife and their boat to a lake where their daughter was visiting a friend. So the daughter and her friend could water ski, didn't even call the family to say he wasn't showing up, came back that night and was killed with his wife, then kept that important meeting out.

He also kept the depth and the degree of of Lenos debts out. So. And this isn't in my book, we didn't have enough room, you know, I mentioned them, you know, because it's an important part, but I don't talk about what I found out and why it was important. There's a much better case that that Lena was targeted. You know, the argument would be, well, who would ever hire Manson to kill someone? Well, you know, Manson wasn't as dumb as he seemed, you know, and they needed money.

This is why I don't want to speculate. And again, it's not even a chapter in the book, so I can't really show you what I've got except to tell you one other, you know, argument that Vince made for why he thought the lobby anchors were killed by the Manson family. I mean, they were actually right with their first theory. It was a copy of the night before to throw off investigators, but it was the same killers.

The police were wrong when they thought it was two separate killers, which I don't think they did is he said we could never establish a connection between the two groups of victims. So there was the Hollywood set at Benedict Canyon, Cielo Drive, and then there was Leno and his wife across town in Las Vegas. And we worked so hard to try to determine if they knew each other at any encounter, thus tying them together. And we couldn't. That was a lie.

Leno got his hair cut from Jay Sebring, the victim. He was in JSI Rings appointment book that's in the police reports that I got access to like my first or second year when I begged, persuaded a cop to let me come go through his files in Palm Springs.

So he very well might have been to that house, to the Cielo Drive house. Yeah. Yeah. So they they knew that social circle.

I don't know about the social circle, but he could have you know, who knew?

I mean, Sebring was a very high profile hairdresser. He was. Yeah. And it was very expensive. It was very expensive.

Yeah. He charged. I mean it was expensive back then. I think it was just twenty dollars. But most men got their hair cut for like a buck or two back then. Yeah. It was an exclusive and he was a hairdresser to the stars. He was Sharon's ex-boyfriend who was still supposedly in love with her. Roman stole her from him and he was with Sharon, you know, the last night of her life. Yeah.

I mean, there's other stuff that didn't end up in the book for space reasons. And also one of the most important things I found out, and this goes to your question about why why this house or why that house that's not in the book. But I talked about it before I found this out. Too late to get on the book. I was able to confirm it the night before. Sharon Tate, Jay Sebring, Boychick Rakowski and Abigail Folger were killed in Cielo Drive.

The four of them had dinner at Jay's house down at the bottom of Benedict Canyon. That's all on the official story. Jay had them to dinner. Amos's butler made them steaks and they ate them in Jay's bedroom. So the four people were in the bedroom. This is August seven, the night before the murders. What's not in the official version, but I found in the police reports is Jay had gotten cable TV, which again, a lot of my critics said there was no cable TV in 1969 in Los Angeles.

There was, of course, a lot of money. Only a few people had it. But you had it. Jay, Sharon Abagail and Forecheck had their ice cream dessert served by Amos the Butler. He went back downstairs.

They were going to watch the movie, and then all of a sudden there was a whoops, sorry, a power surge.

And the lights went really, really bright and dimmed and they lost the cable. So Jay called. Paul Greenwall, Paul Greenwall was a law student whose father was J.s attorney, and he and he was an electrician. That's how he supported himself going through law school. And he had done all the wiring for Jay. So he called Paul Greenwald. And this was a Thursday night at like nine o'clock. And he said, can you come over here? We're trying to watch a movie.

And the cable went out and I don't know, there was a surge so passa.

I can't I got a date. I've been trying to get this day for months. I can't blow her off. And Jay's like, OK, that's all right. We'll do something now. So in the official narrative, nobody reported the surge or losing the cable. But in the official narrative, Jay stayed there. Sharon and Boychick and Gabe Abigale, I think, went to the Dasia club. And then Sharon was there for a half hour and somebody took her home and then Jay went to the club.

What I found out from a police interview of Paul Greenwall, the kid who was called to ask, he told this to the police and then he confirmed it to me 30, 40 years later, when I found him and interviewed him, he said I went to the house either Sunday or Monday after the murders because my father sent me there to get a suit for Jay to be buried in. He goes, I got to the house and I wanted to see what had happened to the wire since I had put all the wires in and I did a circle of the house and I found the wires cut.

He goes, I picked them up and I looked at them and there were like four cables and three work because these were deliberately cut. I could tell by the gradation and and the angle. And he told the police that he said so the night before they were killed, somebody cut the wires and it couldn't have been a gardener because it was nine o'clock at night. And he said from what Jay had told him about the power surge, like all the lights got really bright and then dimmed because that's what happens when you do.

I don't know anything about electricity.

The police didn't follow up on it. Or if they did, I couldn't find a record. And I found that I was in Cornwall and I said, you know, your police report, which I have completely upends. The prosecution's argument that these people were random because Tex Watson the next night cut the wires at the Tate house, the phone wires, and then they went into the house and killed everybody. So unless it's a coincidence that 24 hours before the same four people at a different location have the house wires cut by somebody who might have gotten spooked by the surge or something, they weren't random.

They were being targeted. So that raises questions about that, undermines that the randomness of it, that they were strangers to their killers.

But there's no conclusive thing that you can point to that says this is the reason why they were targeted now.

Oh, wow. Right now. Yeah. What a book, what a journey you've been on, man. I'm very happy for you. Thanks. I'm happy that you did it. I mean, it has to feel like an amazing accomplishment after all those years. Yeah, I only have this book.

Yeah. Yeah. And again, I mean, I more than anything in the world, you haven't gotten to the end of the book. There is a murder in there that I think the Manson family committed that was covered up by the law enforcement because it's screwed up, would have screwed up the prosecution. I want that looked into. There's also at the end of the book, there are these Tex Watson audiotapes that I found out about in 2008 when Watson turned himself in, when he found out he was alerted.

And in Texas, he was at his parents house. They called the police, called the local sheriff who was Texas cousin and his parents and said he's wanted for questioning in these unsolved murders. And this is November 29th. Nobody had been identified publicly as suspects. The police were just starting to figure out that these people had killed their victims. So two LAPD flew down to Texas. Watson was brought into the station, questioned by the LAPD, put under arrest.

They had to extradite him so that the sheriff, their Texas cousin, put him in a cell. The family call up a lawyer, Bill Boy, who had actually represented a tax on a college case when he stole a typewriter from a college and a prank. Bellboy told me in an interview in 2008 that that day he had text tell him the whole story or Charles, as he called them, about how he met Manson, why the murders were committed, how they happened.

He said he spoke to me for 20 hours and he goes, I've got all those audiotapes in a safe in my office. He told me that in 2008. He said he also described other murders that the family had committed that hadn't been connected to them.

So right away, when, you know, I'm in 2009, I'm working on it that long. I thought other murders, that's important to me. But more important, did he tell his attorney? Why the murders really happen, you know, why they picked those houses, you know, this was the first account. That was recorded, the next one was Susan Atkins about a week later, after she had gotten her new attorney that the prosecution planted, they audio taped her telling her version, which became the official version.

So Watsons would predate that by a week.

And when I found out that they were in that safe and he's telling me this on the phone that way, he can't play that to me because that would violate Watson's attorney client privilege. But I thought I have to ask. So I said, is there any chance, Mr. Boyd, I could come down and listen to those tapes? And he said that's when he realized he shouldn't have told me. He said, oh, well, I. I couldn't do that without Charles Watson.

Charles permission. I got you still in touch with me as I write to him every now and then he writes me he didn't represent him at trial after he was extradited. And I said, would you please ask? So that began three or four months of me pestering him. He would never take the phone call. And then finally, after four months, I called up and his secretary said, oh, I'm sorry, Mr. Boies in China on business today.

And I said, well, you have to tell him I'm not going to wait anymore. I'm going to write to Charles and tell him what he told me. I go if there's other bodies. I mean, I didn't let them know that I was more interested in the motive story, but I said if I was interested in this, too, I go if there's other bodies or victims out there who have never been connected, even we don't even know if the remains were uncovered because there's a lot of evidence that there might have been people killed out in the desert and buried there.

I go. I need to know that. And she said, OK, I'll tell them. My phone rang like literally thirty seconds after I hung it up and I had caller I.D. and it was from his Texas office goes, this is Billboard. You cannot call Charles and tell him I told you that. I said, Mr. Boyd, you haven't called me back for four months. Because what I'm telling you now, you can't do that. I go, well, are you going to, you know, get his permission?

Because, yeah, you just have to be patient. I go, I can't wait anymore. He says if you do that and you tell him, I'll deny ever telling you. I said it's all on tape. I tape that call because you didn't have permission to tape that cargo. Yeah, you gave me permission at the beginning. And that's on tape, too, because God damn you journalists.

And he hung up on me, you journalists. He lumped in with all of them.

You know, he said, my wife his wife is a TV anchor. He does my wife. I know how you people work. I go, you gave me permission. It's on the audiotape. Wow.

So he died six months later on the treadmill.

Oh, my God.

I'll be thinking about you and his his firm went bankrupt. And then it was until two or three years later. And it's all in there, the back story. But I finally went to try to get the tapes again and found out he had died. I found out that the tapes were in the possession of the trustee who was, you know, waiting for the bankruptcy to be of all resolved. And it took me three or four months of back and forth and to try to get them to release the tapes to me.

And I made an argument for why they weren't protected anymore. Again, long story short, I was sharing information with the deputy D.A. in Los Angeles who I thought was friendly. He was until he wasn't. And he was handling all the parole hearings of the Manson family guy named Pat Secura, the woman who was in charge of the tapes, the trustees said. If Secure calls me and tells me that it's OK for me to release them to you and explains how it's not a violation, I'll do it.

I said Alaskan's. So I asked and he said, absolutely, I want to talk to her. And I said, great. A day later, I got a call from security because you're not going to believe that she's releasing the tapes to us like you. He goes, Yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't worry. I'll let you hear him when we get home. She asked, I knew right then I had lost any kind of control. And sure enough, no one.

The trustee had to notify Watson's new attorney. Watson put up a fight in court. And it's you can read about in the L.A. Times. I reported on that for about a year. For about a year. It went from the local court to the state Supreme Court where the judge finally ruled that the LAPD should have the tapes. They sent two officers down to get the tapes. And 2013, they came back and then nobody at the DA's office would talk to me anymore.

The promise that had been made that I would be the first one to listen to them reneged on those tapes. A million journalists have made Freedom of Information Act requests for them. They won't release them. They're locked up. Leslie Van Houten attorney wants them. He thinks it'll help her at her parole hearings because he thinks there's information on there to show that she's been telling the truth all these years. He's gone to the state Supreme Court through other courts.

They blocked them down twenty hours, first account of how and why these murders occurred and they're not releasing them. I think it's because the truth is on their holy shit.

What is that truth?

I don't know. Maybe. I mean, yeah, you've got a wide audience. Maybe other people will come forward. I would just be happy if some paper like The Time, L.A. Times, The New York Times, Washington Post assign some reporters just to go through my reporting and see if I've made shit up or if it all plays out and then does a little bit of additional reporting.

A lot of these people are dying. You know, they're getting all, but a lot of them are still alive and they could be interviewed.

Well, I hope they do, Tom. And anybody go get this chaos, Charles Manson, the CIA, the secret history of the sixties. Tom O'Neil. It's amazing.

Tom, let me say one more thing, please. If people want to see the actual documents, I have an Instagram and a Facebook page where I put them up. There's also excerpts of my interviews with Puleo, see Manson, some of the really important stuff where I put the audio tapes up. So what, you can't get in the book or even on the footnotes you can see online if you just Google my name, Manson and Instagram or Facebook.

There it is right there. Mascoma. Yeah, yeah. That's the Charles Manson.

If you scroll down around tons of that stuff. Thank you so much to my pleasure. I love shake hands.

Yeah. Yeah. We shake hands. You got we got tested right before this. I know it's a requirement for coming in this room. Yes. I'm happy that you don't have it. I know. Thanks for let me know that. I mean I was so it was a distraction for not being nervous about this. Worried about my test results.

Well we got it and we got the book. And I really appreciate you, man. That was really, really a lot of fun. I really, really enjoyed it. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. All right. Bye, everybody.

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