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Just remember that Thrive Market is risk free. You can take the first 30 days to determine if Thrive Market is right for you. If it's not, just cancel within 30 days and you get a full refund. So head on over to thrive. Market dot com slash Joe. All right. We're going down a UFO rabbit hole today, kids. My guests today are George Knapp. He's an investigative journalist out of Las Vegas, Nevada, and he's the one who broke the Bob Lazaar story way back in 1989.

He's been a part of the UFO community, the serious UFO community, actually really researching and trying to separate the bullshit from the real ever since then. And he's a brilliant man and an honest man. And one of the most important people when it comes to that world. And also with him is Jeremy Corbell. Jeremy has been on the show before a couple times. He is the man who produced and created Bob Lozar. Area 51 and flying saucers.

He's the director and the producer, which is a fact. It's a fascinating documentary if you haven't seen it. And it's the one that really turned me around on UFOs and made me start to reconsider it again. And then after that. He also introduced me to Commander Fraser, who is the guy who saw the Tic TAC UFO, the very famous one that was off of San Diego. We talked about that. We talked about New York Times articles.

We talked about debunkers and what they're getting wrong. We went down deep, deep down the rabbit hole with these two, including George, his history with Bob Bouzar and what it was like for him when he broke the story back in 1989. I'm talking too much. This is a good one. I really enjoyed it.

Please welcome Jeremy Corbell and George Knapp, the Joe Rogan Experience, joined by my first Bob George.

Pleasure to meet you, Joe. Great dishonor. Good to see you in person.

Great to see you, too. And, Jeremy, good to see you again. Good to see you. This is why we're doing this often. It's becoming a thing. George, I think that you're probably like one of the most important figures when it comes to journalism in UFOs. And when you broke the bog, bizarre story was that is at 89.

When was that? 1989. Eighty nine, 1989. I remember reading about it. I remember hearing about it. I remember watching clips on television and and watching countless Bob Lozar interviews. It all came out of you. I mean, did you think at that time.

What was your thoughts about UFOs before you had met Bob Lozar? And how much did it change while you got to know him and hear his story changed quite a bit? I had not really given it much thought at all. You know, probably the same level of curiosity as most people. You go about your life, you pay your bills, you go to work. You you love your family. And it's always out there somewhere. I wonder what the deal is on.

Not had not really dwelled on it until it was a day in 1987. Into the studio comes a guy name John Lear. And I had heard sort of a a little bit about him. His family was famous. His dad developed the Lear jet, the eight track tape. John had run for the state Senate and he had a certain amount of credibility with our news organization, Kaili, STV, because he had helped us break a really big story.

And the story was the stealth fighter, the F 117. He had told my boss, Ned Day, managing editor, about this amazing plane that was invisible to radar flying up and Tonopah in Area 51. We had an interest in Area 51, not UFO related, but Ned broke that story. It went national. So John Lear comes into the station one day with a stack of what turned out to be UFO documents. He plops them on Ned's desk and says, Ned, this is going to be the next biggest story, the biggest story in history.

It's a UFO cover up. Aliens are here. Technology has been recovered. Ned takes a look at it and says, I'm not doing this story. If it was true, I'd already know no about it. This is crazy. I'm eavesdropping as I tend to do. I'm a curious person, so I. As he's going out, I said Lere, let me take a look at this material. And I looked at I thought, well, this is kind of interesting.

At the time, I was producing and hosting this little public affairs show, 30 minute interview show. It would air Sunday morning at six o'clock. Nobody watches it. It would be interviewing a city councilman and county commissioner. What the heck? I'll put Lere on there and I let him go. And he told me this big scenario about secret treaties with aliens and recovered technology in a giant cover up. Some of the information sounded outrageous. Some of it seemed like it would be worth checking out.

Suddenly, the phone started ringing off the hook. I'm getting calls about people, though. Who was that guy? What was the deal on that UFO stuff? Is it real? I had him on again. Six months later and the response was bigger. Had him on a third time with a guy named Bill Cooper. I regret that. And he told him an even more elaborate conspiracy.

He's the behold the pale horse guy. Yes. Yeah. I read that book halfway through. I was like, what in the fuck is this?

Yeah, he tied in the JFK assassination and everything bases on the moon. Aliens are there right now. He had this scenario where he had seen these documents when he was in the Navy and he's going to tell the world about it. Then he's gonna go away. Well, every time he told the story, the documents got bigger and bigger. And anybody who criticized Bill Cooper became part of the secret government, including me. So we do this third show with Lear and he hints that he knows a guy who might be gone to work out at Area 51 and knows something about alien technology.

That guy turns out to be Bob Lozar. But Lear didn't give me that name at that time. Couple of months later, I am anchoring the five o'clock news on Kaili, US, and we have a nightly or a evening interview segment, five minute segment, live interview. Our guest doesn't show up and we're scrambling to find somebody to fill that hole. And I thought about Lear. So I called him up not knowing what had been going on in Lazaro's life or Lear's life.

And I said, hey, is your UFO guy? Told me about is he around? Would you do an interview?

Just turned out that Bob had been through the ringer and a lot of stuff going on in his life. He felt threatened. And he said, yes, we had a blackout his face. We do this interview and he spills the basics of the story. I worked out there at a place called Ask For. I saw nine flying saucers and an underground base. This is technology that came from somewhere else. I'm in fear for my life. Holy cow.

The phone start ringing off the hook.

My news director comes rushing in. The station manager. Is that for real? What's the deal on that? And we realized we had touched the pulse of the public in a way that I didn't really understand. We arranged to go meet Bob Lozar, my news director, Bob Stoll, all night that following weekend and put him through paces where we would ask him questions about his background and how he got the job. We spent a couple hours with him and we walked out of that meeting taking holy shit.

What if this is true? You know, this is really risky for us as journalists. It risky for our personal reputations if it blows up in our faces and we do this story and it would really damage the reputation of our news organization, which is kaili us as a jewel. It's always been a leader in Las Vegas. One of the best TV news operations in the country. We're putting a lot on the line. Well, look, we decide.

Let's take our time. Let's look into this guy's story. And then in order to understand Lozar, we'd have to look at the bigger picture of UFOs. So I started a cram course on ufology and I read everything. And I spent eight months like cramming for a final exam. That never happened. I read everything. I interviewed people that same year. MoveOn had its its annual international symposium in Las Vegas. And they're all the world's UFO people came right to me.

I got to interview them, traveled around, went to Los Alamos of Lozar, took us into the lab. We took cameras in there. He walked us around waving to people we didn't even have to stop for security, took us into the lab like it was a rabbit going through its own burrow. He knew of the place his way around. We were allowed to take a camera in there. We put those stories together, put him on the air in November and man, it just went through the roof every night of these nine this nine part series people got.

The audience got bigger phones ringing off the hook, people calling, giving us information. Suddenly, it's on something called Paronella, which was sort of a precursor to the Internet. And it was huge and it changed my life for sure. I had no idea that there were so many people out there interested in the topic. And I was hooked and I really got hooked on. Those are not only because his story personally, you know, I was interested in him.

We became friends. I saw what happened to him after that live interview. And in the seven and a half months before we went and I revealed his identity. People really mess with them. I mean, there were you cannot convey what it was like, how weird it was then breaking into his house, leaving the windows open. Messing with things in his in his home. Breaking into his car, leaving the doors and windows down, just messing with his head.

And you think that was the government that was doing that? I do. I think so.

And then so I had put out a call to people, hey, I want other people to come forward. This is before his identity was revealed. Was not explained. Yes.

I am actively seeking information from the public. If you ever worked it or a 51 or a spore, you know anything about this? You're at Nellis Air Force Base. Reach out to me. So I started getting calls and six people right in a row who had talked to me on the phone and offered to give me information, were visited right after the call. One of them was a guy who did tax returns for people at Nellis Air Force Base.

Had got to know these guys really well and got information about crashes. There was a guy who was a golf pro at Nellis who had gone on our road road trips with officers and told him about this weird stuff out at Area 51 that seemed to be from somewhere else. He gets visited and told to shut up. There was a lady who worked in the court system. A cop told me about her and I talked to her on the phone and she had worked at the court system.

But before she had worked for a company called Holmes and Nabil, which is a defense contractor. And she said she sat in as a stenographer in these meetings and heard these conversations between the government contractors and Air Force officials about crash saucers. And they would after the meeting, they took take the tape out of the typewriter and destroy it and take all the notes. And she agreed to tell me the story. It was just a tiny piece of the story.

The next day, she's visited by these two guys in suits. They tell her, look, you are still subject to your security clearance.

I hope you know that. And then they said, we know you traveled to L.A. to see your daughter and we know she comes here. It's a big desert out there. Be terrible if something happened to either one of you. This lady is scared shitless. She didn't make that stuff up.

So six people who had offered to give me information on the phone, one right after another get visited. And it it made me mad. It also made me mad that dealing with, you know, trying to fill in pieces of Bob Lazaro's life. I know there's some gaping holes. I know it better than anybody. I've had to deal with it for 31 years. But I always thought if if he worked at Los Alamos in classified projects and a scientific or technical capacity, then it would make sense that he could get hired into a program like us for as somebody who thinks outside the box despite personal shortcomings or whatever, they might bring somebody like him in to help him crack a problem that they hadn't been able to resolve themselves.

So I focused on Los Alamos. I knew he had been there. I talked to people who remembered him for being there, but the lab kept telling me, no, no record of him. He's never here. And then I guess showed him, well, look, I've got the Los Alamos newspaper. It's a small town paper. There it is on the front page, a front page story. Bob Lozar, physicist, Mason Facility, Los Alamos lab.

It's a story about his jet car. No, still have no records of him. And then I found his name in the phone book from the era when he was there. He is in the lab phonebook. He had been hired by a company called Kirk Meyer, which is a company that's a headhunter that fills positions at Los Alamos and places like that. So great. I'll reach out to Kirk Meyer. They said, yeah, we hired him.

Yeah, we've got records. Can I get it? Can I get his employment records that would show where he went to school, whatever information you guys had. Yes. Couple of weeks go by. Nothing. Couple more weeks go by. I call him again. I start writing them. I've got a stack of letters that that went on for two and a half years. And finally, by the end of it, they said he was never here.

We don't have any records that that pissed me off. It made me mad. And I think that that is really what got me hooked on the story is that I was being jerked around by government and national facilities like that.

We should explain the Los Alamos thing because the Los Alamos thing coincided with him doing work at M.I.T., right? Is that correct? That's so he's explained to Tasmania and the way he explained it to me. I don't think I'm at liberty to say what the project was, because the project, the way he was describing it, is essentially internationally illegal. What they were working on and that's one of the reasons why he was saying he explain what the project was.

It sounded very feasible, also very evil. And then it was it was basically a weapon. And then he said that this is the reason why there was no actual record of him studying at M.I.T.. It was an import that he got a degree. It was important that he understand the technical specifications of what they were attempting to accomplish.

That's my understanding as well. And, you know, it's always been the most problematic part of his background. And that's where a lot of people in the bubblies, our story, that's where they stop.

But the thing is, when you listen to him talk and when he describes thing, it's very clear he's educated.

Oh, he's a brilliant guy. But here's I had always. And I you know, Bob, you're my friend. I want to have a conversation with you about these claim degrees because I didn't believe that he'd ever sat down. You know, those days you go to a college like M.I.T. or Caltech and get a degree. You've got to take classes in something other than science. You do. You know, I could not imagine those are taking an English lit class to save his life.

But he is a brilliant guy. He ought to give me an example. In April, COBA thing is is raging. My wife and I are staying at home. We're getting packages delivered for food and things of that sort. I'm a little worried. They didn't know about contact, whether you can get it off a cardboard boxes or whatever. And I mentioned Bob in a phone conversation. I'm thinking about buying one of these you v screener systems. He goes, wait a second.

Don't buy one. I think I've got the parts that I can make you one in my garage. And a week later it arrives. This thing, he's got it in his garage, handmade. This big scanner with these U.B. things that work. He just whipped it up in his garage.

I'll remind you, you got the scanner. I got a laser. Right. You got a laser guided man. It is super powerful.

So it's like a handheld toy that he retrofitted with a superpower. So I'm like lighting shit on fire him.

I think it looks like a handheld toy, but it's actually a trailblazer. It's a toy with full noise. But he put a diode in there and it's super powerful. It can light shit on fire. But my face. So I got the laser gun.

You also got the flamethrower, though. Lozar made a flamethrower. This before your buddy Elan made no comment on that.

Yeah, well, it's a match made and made a flamethrower massive.

Yeah. He's obviously a very intelligent man. When you listen to him talk, there's no bullshitting going on when he talks about very when he's to talks about undeniable concrete things when it comes to science, when it comes to elements, when it comes to propulsion systems. He clearly knows what he's talking about. And the really confusing thing for people that are detractors is he really hasn't changed his story in 31 years.

It really is the same story. And that's really hard to do, even if you tell a true story. 31 years later, you get it screwed up a little bit. It's hard when you're calling on 30. Like, if I had to remember things from 31 years ago, that's like one year in a standup comedy 31 years ago.

I don't remember it. I beg I'm going to tell you like, oh, yeah, it was a Sunday night. And then my friend Greg go actually is Wednesday. Yeah. Yeah, it was Wednesday. Who is the host? You know, we'll we'll have it. I don't know. It's a blurry slideshow, but Bob has been remarkably consistent. The only thing that he's vacillated on, we varied a little bit is the whether or not he saw an alien or whether or not he saw someone who was looking at something that was the size of an alien, like a small figure, like whether or not they were trying to determine how large a creature would have to be to use one of those small crafts, because it's the crafts were very small in terms of like for it for a human being.

They were it was more like something that was built for a child. And he walked by a window and looked inside. And in some of the earlier discussions of it, he believed that he might have seen an alien. But he was really clear that he only saw it for literally a second as he was walking by, saw something. And again, you know how the brain works in memory. You could you can really plant false memories. Everybody wants to pretend they're memories.

So good memories are terrible.

Well, Bob admitted from the beginning, remember, with the first interview we did, I think it was June of 89. So it was a little after we did that live interview, but months before we went with his I.D. and that was really rerecorded it in case something happened to him. He was afraid he was going to be killed. There were a lot of really weird things going on and on. I was worried about it, too. I wanted to get it on the record.

And Clay case, suddenly he disappeared. So we recorded this long interview. And always he downplays stuff like that. That's an example. Yeah, I might. I saw something that was that size. I don't believe it was an alien. It was just a glimpse. May were. They're messing with my head. He also admits that they did mess with his head, that he had to they underwent some kind of hypnosis, that they made him drink this weird green liquid, probably LSD.

Well, maybe they said it was an allergy test.

Yeah. I mean, you know, to your point, Destro Quick is after 30 years, it's not that he changed his story. He's changed. So when I was interviewing him, you know, he cracked a book back open to me. It was like he was saying the science and technology is what I know. I had my hands on that. I can't attest to what I read in the documents. Yeah, I saw something for a brief millisecond through a fucking window, but I don't know what that was.

So so people have taken what he said and exaggerated it. Bob has always been skeptical of the things he didn't have his hands on. And I admire that. And he's changed as a human, as a human. He's matured. So now he's saying, okay, let me look at it rationally. I don't know what I saw through that window. I appreciate that. He's he's so straight.

Yeah, he's very straight. You know, they say various scenarios have popped up over the years about why. He came forward, there are people who believe he just made it up. He was trying to make money or he wanted attention. There are people who believe it's government disinformation to distract attention from something else that was going on out there, or they believe both of them, which, you know, they would seem to be mutually exclusive. Bob would admit that he had no business being there.

That they maybe that there were much more qualified people to work on those kind of things. Maybe he was a guy who thinks outside the box, who might give a new slant on trying to figure this stuff out that they had had for decades and had not had not been able to dupe. But we should explain that a little bit.

The Los Alamos lab story was him. He put a jet engine on a Honda. Right. And it was a functional jet car that he built himself. So he was a legitimate propulsion expert. And again, like a super science nerd, like where he got his education is what's weird, right?

I finally got an interview with the guy that wrote that article two weeks ago. So the guy, Terry English. Right.

Finally, after all this time, he come back three years late. You know, I mean, we'll put him in the movie. And I said, look, here's the point. You said Bob Lazarre was a physicist at Los Alamos. So how did you base that? You're writing a paper and he goes, Yeah. And he got picked up by AP News. He goes, If I had misrepresented that he was a physicist at Los Alamos, I would have been blackballed by everybody at Los Alamos.

They take that very seriously. He was a physicist. I reported it. AP News picked it up. They repeated it not word one from anybody saying he wasn't a physicist at Los Alamos. It's little things like that that, you know, nothing Bob has ever said. Have I ever found out? Yeah. This is a real hot.

And he did the story because the car was bad ass when he fired it at it.

When he has a history of this, he also made a hydrogen powered Corvette later on. Yeah, he's a he's a wizard. He's a very smart guy.

You know, he will admit to you that maybe he was picked for the job. They figured. All right. In case he blabs, we can discredit this guy like that Wolmar done with him. There's things in his background. He likes to blow things up. He likes explosives. He had a pirate flag on his on his house at the time that I first met him. He he liked machine guns. He you know, he had an illegal fireworks show that would go out in the desert every year that became, oh, a world class event.

He got into some legal trouble after he'd worked out there. So there's a lot of things in his life they could use to discredit him. But the people who still maintain that Bob was a disinformation plot, it was meant to distract attention out from something else going on out there. Whoever came up with that idea should be fired because as a result of Bob coming forward, that story. Area 51 is now known all over the world. And I'm sorry, but the Bob Losar version of that stopped the tale is the one that prevailed.

It's known everywhere. It's been in movies and books and TV shows that it's launched a thousand different, you know, Projet products like The Hat. Yeah, Las Vegas. Fifty ones are triple A baseball team became the fifty ones because the Lozar story, the Eighty Highway is created and christened by our governor. You know that that story that Bertan that he told is now known all over the world, whether detractors like it or not. And if somebody was trying to distract attention away from something going on at Area 51, it failed miserably because tens of thousands of people made the trek out there.

Even today, 31 years later, every single day, there's somebody with binoculars or a scope or something looking for whatever is flying around out there. Every major news organization in the world, after given me nothing but grief, has made a beaten path to area fifty one's door, all of them. They've all done it. And Bob's story about reverse engineering craft from somewhere else is now part of a much larger and current series of events that we can get into.

Yeah, and that story that he told when he was on the podcast here got phenomenal response. There were so many people that I talked to that were my friends who were skeptical about that shit. They they'd call me. I would go, Hey, man, I'm starting to believe this is real. And I'm like, you should watch the documentary and then you should watch the Commander Favre interview where he talks about the tick tock, you tick tock UFO that they encountered off of San Diego because you're talking about a rock solid military man with no shenanigans in his background who is telling a story about a craft that they cannot explain, doing things that defy physics and our understanding of propulsion systems.

And quite a few people from that interview have completely changed their tune. Friends of mine who thought it was total horseshit. I've done a 180 and they're like, fuck, is this real? Then the New York Times story came out, of course, in The New York Times is showing all these images of these UFOs and these these things that they can't explain that all exhibit very similar propulsion methods or at least speeds that they can explain. They move the same way.

And there's legitimate people, legitimate scientists now. They are starting to take this into consideration, say, OK, if this is from Earth, then there's got to be some sort of a program that has technology that's far beyond anything we knew was possible. How did they do that? Is it because there's some super geniuses that the government gets a hold of? Right. When they're in college and they immediately ship them off to the desert and have to create this stuff?

Or are we, in fact, encountering something like us from the future or something from another place that has had a completely different path to technology? But it's not outside the realm of possibility. We're here. We're here sending videos through our phones to each other. You know, we're talking to people that, you know, it's being relayed through the sky. We're watching films that are instantly downloaded wirelessly from these servers. I mean, they're just the technology that we have right now is completely alien to anybody who was around in Roswell in 1947, from 1947 to 2020, in terms of the universe is not even a half of a blink of an eye.

And then, boom, things have changed so radically.

It's not it's not crazy to think that something from somewhere is far ahead of us.

Yes. So that's one of the big things getting commander flavor in that room with Bob, with Soko, because people Bob talks to, whoever he's talking with, he helps you understand what he's saying. He can go into high specify detail on stuff. But typically he's just talking to whoever's there. When when I got him in front of Commander Freyberg, all of us and Matt, we were all in the room. It was amazing because Commander Frager saw it, too.

He saw something like Bob saw it. And the way that the craft, the Tic TAC moved it, it can not be something that we have because it was clearly, gravitationally propelled. This is what they talk about. Commander Frailest saw it bouncing like a ping pong ball on the inside of a glass. The inertia being able to go back bump. And the coolest thing Bob said was, well, command favorite Dave. It could have been a subject to a time distortion.

So you're seeing it one way and they start talking about gravity amplification. It was just so cool to see them talk without an audience. What the fuck did Commander of Privacy and Bob was? It's cool that when he can be calm and chill like that and just talk to another human.

And what's crazy is what Commander Fraser is describing is what Bob was describing, the propulsion systems of 1989. They were working on Strader. It's the exact same thing. Even the way it turns sideways to move or to move off. Well, that's exactly how he's describing it. Yeah, that's which is crazy. Gimel craft, you know, we have this video and everybody says, oh, it's this, it's that. It's another plane, an FAA team.

Dude, I've talked with a dude at Boeing who he serviced these pods that it was caught on the gimbal. That thing is self rotating. It is a saucer shaped thing that is rotating mechanically against the wind. We they all know that this is has to be a gravity propelled probe. We understand the science that it takes to do it. We can't replicate and we pulled it.

So I always do that. It's OK. We have it read up. If we can't replicate it right with our material sciences, our best information at this time, we can't replicate this technology, but we do understand how it works.

Fundamentally, fundamentally, we just don't have the power to actually make it.

The material science, even just the actual physical material science, the materials its made out of. And that's what's been in the news now, metamaterials that there are materials from craft that we have. George will talk about that. But Lozar is parallel with what we're seeing today.

Yeah. And what's also really bonkers is in 89, he was talking about element 115, wasn't even scientifically proven to exist until 2013. So in 1989, you're talking about this is science fiction. He's making things up. In 2013, they actually were able to create for a brief moment an element 115, which is this insanely dense element that they believe is perhaps the propulsion system for this craft.

It was always theorized, of course, element 115, but fabricating it was an achievement. But, yeah, if you're talking about being a winner every time history writes itself, right, Bob is it's insane.

He's batton 100 percent, 100 years that he knew there was a place called S4.

There had been no no articles about that. No mentioned that. I looked for it and I called Nellis Air Force Base and ask him, do you have a place called S4 anywhere on the range? Yeah. In fact, we have more than one site. Can you tell me where they are? No. Can you tell me what goes on there? No. Well, there was a facility at Pappas. I think it was built into the into the side of the mountain.

And you can see the dirt road on the old satellite photos. Why were people going down there? And then, of course, the video, he goes out there with his friends when he thinks he's going to be killed or or he's going to disappear. And he and three weeks in a row, you've talked about on this program and they videotaped this and all the. Those who were there have verified it and it was not over Area 51. It was over Pappa's, which officially has no no facility, nothing has ever been there.

Bob knew a lot of stuff that he couldn't have known otherwise. And it's it's been proven over.

And you didn't know stuff that was disproven. He didn't come out. He didn't make up a bunch of crazy shit. There you go. Like like the William Cooper book. Right. Like, there's a lot of people that have speculated what that was all about, whether William Cooper was just schizophrenic, whether he was writing some truths mixed in with crazy things. So you could discount the truth. I mean, that is that is a real strategy that the government will employ if they know that information is going to get leaked out and they want to somehow or another discredit it, they'll connect it to really loony stuff.

That is absolutely not true. And you'll say, where did you get that information? Well, I got from behold a pale horse. Oh, Christ. Did you read all the stuff in that book? Right. I mean, so there's there's that thought, but there's none of that with Bob. With Bob. Everything that he talked.

It's it's so eerie every time you turn over a stone. I think I'm going to find out at first. That's how George and I met. I thought I was going to see these guys cooked it up. That was my first entry point in 2012. I thought they cooked it up every stone you turnover. To be clear what George has said. Bob always said there's a place called Cite for that was never mentioned anywhere at Papoose. He verified it in 1989 with head of public relations, who is a Homi of his at Area 51.

We then call 30 years later and they give us the funniest fucking answer. Trying to not talk about sports. He confirmed it every time he turned over a stone man. Every time Bob's proven right and it's it's annoying.

What was the experiment that he did with Element 115 that you guys videotaped? It was available online.

Could someone watch that? No, it isn't.

So, though. It was called a cloud chamber town. So he he had this stuff. I know people don't believe that it exists, and he never had any of it. They're welcome to believe it. But he had he had a piece of it. He didn't steal peace. The only time I ever saw it, it was in his lead shield round disk. And he had it for a while.

It was in it because it's radio. Radioactive, I think is stable. I don't think it's radioactive. That's how it was shipped to him. So it's in a good tip disk.

Protect it from bombardment because it will become unstable very quickly. That's how he says they used it in the craft. So, yeah, he had it in a pocket. And and Joe Hockey Puck looking. Yeah. Like a metal sandwich. And it's led. Yeah. Yeah, it was in this thing.

Yeah. And I showed it and I had it in the background. And one of our stories just sort of an inside joke. It's sitting in there. But Bob used to keep it in front of a particle accelerator that he had built at his home. You know, every every night scientists, every nonscientist builds a particle accelerator in their home. And he had it there when he thought he was gonna be killed. He was sort of a defense mechanism for him.

He had a right in front. All he had to do is flip a switch. And he he thought it could explode. I think he meant to scare people from coming in and trying to trying to take him out. But this cloud chamber test was the only time I think he ever took it out of this thing. And I got there right as the as the experiment ended, where they had this little chamber and it bent light. Now they were they show me the video.

I don't pretend to be a scientist. I don't try to be an expert on things I really don't know. But it looked to me like light was bending in this experiment, which it shouldn't be able to do. It's a like a laser that bent.

I've seen some of this. Jeremy, I was able to find man, this was a search of George from day one.

When I have it right now on video on me, it's in my movie, right? Yeah. Okay. So. So but basically what happened is it's so annoying. I'm like, you guys have footage of this because Bob never filmed this to put out to the public. It was to show his friends, like taking them to the test site, showed them the saucers. It was so his friends didn't think he was fucking crazy. So they film it and lo and behold, they give it to George.

It's in a Brown case. It's somewhere in his archives. I've sorted through his whole damn house, man. I can't find this tape. So then I asked Bob, is there anywhere this could be anywhere else? This is important footage, Bob, and I find it sandwiched between two Golden Girls episodes on some tape he kind of recorded over. So I got out to the public, what, 17 or 30 seconds of this cool down phase of the test?

Is that online? Anywhere it's in it's in my film.

I can put it all right. But is it online as an audio? No, I got it. I found it in these old tapes. They they couldn't find a job.

Two people take little things from movies and some to.

Oh, maybe, maybe somebody has. But I'll I'll post it man. I'll play. It's cool. It's cool. It doesn't. But Bob says he's so impressed with everything he's like Jeremy. That doesn't show the cool part of the test. It's just a cool down period. And I'm like, well, it shows you film this with your friends back then and that at least you believed you had 115. So what I have in the film, it's not definitive proof, but it shows that they weren't lying, that they filmed it.

George was there.

Bob would just assume that that goes away, that people not to see it. Is this it? Yeah, that's it. That's it.

Jimmy is the best, Jamie. So what's happening here? Explain. This looks like he's growing a plant or some shit. Right. So this is why Bob was so unimpressed with what I found sandwiched in his personal home videos.

That the disk. That's the top of the desk. Look across it. Yeah. So he was trying to show his friends, like today if he had a laser pointer.

So here's the here's the cloud you could look at over there. Jeremy, if you don't want to turn.

Oh. Got it. So so if Bob had a laser pointer back then with the principles of the 115, which he did get out and he doesn't wear the 115, this image inside of that, there's a clamshell inside of the puck.

So that's the surface. We're looking at the surface of this climb to top of this thing. Yeah.

And so he'd he'd have it in there. Now, the whole sensitivity for him is his real world implications if he's telling the truth to us about it.

I don't understand what I just saw, though. I didn't see anything. You didn't see it. And we don't read that again. It's the only piece of that tape that still exists, but it's not the only part of that.

All it shows, Joe, is that they filmed a home experiment back then. He demonstrated for his friends how light was bent by the material itself.

I understand that, but I'm not seeing that. You're not you're not seeing this. This is the only piece of the tape that still exists, but is not the central piece. Was this in the film?

Yeah, it was briefly. I didn't highlight it because it was like I did. I'm not seeing anything in this. This is what's confusing to me. This seems like nothing like nothing is going on at all.

Right. That that that's the point is that he has a long version. George, blame him.

It's my fault. But I understand. But why is this in the film then, if nothing's happening? It was a splash over when he was talking about 115. He doesn't like how Tungamah how he got it out, but it was like a Easter egg.

Jeremy wanted to demonstrate that that had been the recording get exist at one point, but that's the only piece that's left of it. I'm the guy who got the tape. So you got a full tape. I got to ask. Don't know where it is.

No, it isn't in your house somewhere. I doubt it. I mean, it left.

He's looked. I've looked. Where could it be? Dude, you should. You should see his house. I do. I looked for years, man. I went through, made him take and digitize all these tapes. I took hundreds of tapes and digitized them looking for this little two minutes. That seems like a big deal.

Yeah, it's a really big deal. Who's that? I mean, I I've got thousands of tapes from that era. And I have saved them all. And I moved them around and then I'd use them in different productions. I can't find it. I know that. That is very unsatisfactory for people. And I've been accused of making it up.

It's actually very appropriate considering the history of this stuff.

Yes, it's kind of funny, frustrating as fuck, man, cause but but kind of funny the the aftermath of Bob coming forward.

Of course, it. It messed with his life in a big way. And, you know, he was not all that much of a he was sort of a Somaya recluse anyway. But the stuff that goes on here even 31 years later, you know what it's like these fanboys. He's got people that got the bubbles are disease really bad and they still deal with him. They spend their days now, all these years later focusing on Bob, that two weeks ago somebody put something on Twitter.

It was an interview. Some of these guys had gone to New Mexico to find people that had worked with Lozar long time ago and then tried to dig up dirt. Hey, you remember working with Bob or you knew him back then? Yeah. Did he have teenagers working for him at his photo shop? Yeah. You ever seen anything weird with him and little girls? No. The guy says and then the interviewer says, well, we heard that he tried to solicit a 14 year old girl to work at a at a brothel.

And then they put this. The guy says, I don't think about that. They put this on Twitter with the headline. Bob Lazaro's solicited 14 year old girl to go into prostitution.

So who who's doing this? Just some guy online trolls, people who've got it bad. And there's so many of them that every day they post some about bubbles are. It's really good. Why God did.

Well, I think you have foe's attract a certain percentage of schizophrenics.

Totally. But this this is like so horrible the way that his story. I mean, they just. I've never seen it like this. I've never. I get it. I. Because I did a film on Bob. I get death threats because of Bob. That's that's his life.

Every day, you know. At a military guy who I had asked years ago about disinformation, you know, do you guys have to see disinformation out there to discredit the UFO story said we don't have to plant anything. UFO people do it all to themselves. I mean, they're nuts. Yeah, I had a I got a P HD and ufology, in essence, by working on that story and then subsequent stories because the public had reacted in such a way.

All right. I'm going to stick with it. But that what you run into in the topic. It's no wonder that you've gone back and forth on it. So why, you know, questioning whether is this a good use of my time? Because there's so many of them that are absolutely nuts and and psychopaths and they make stuff up and and they also make a living doing it.

Like Jamie and I were watching H and Aliens the other day.

And we're laughing. We're like like what are the qualifications of being a UFO researcher? Like, you have to have a degree.

You just have to be a bullshit artist who's willing to get on the History Channel and talk about UFO. Like, literally, you just have to know a few facts that you could spit out. And some guys were clearly reading off of a script. Like, this is to be the lowest bar for like in terms of like what does your son do? Oh, he's a scientific expert on the History Channel. Amazing. You know. Well, what does he really.

He's a fucking UFO. Researcher. Well, what does that mean? It just means he's a guy who's in the U.S. foes who can string words together in an appropriate sentence. It seems like he knows what he's talking about. So they put him on TV. And when I did that sci fi show, Joe Rogan questions everything. I lost all my faith in UFO research. And I brought it back because of your. Your documentary is what brought. And Dave Foley because talking to Dave fucking loved Dave.

I love day and. But he's so into it, man. I'm like, really. He's like, you kind of look into this. You got to look into that. You know, he's telling all all these things, Mike. All right. One more time. Here we go. And then when I watch your documentaries like Holy Shit, I'm ZnO, Grealy rekindled my thoughts about Bob Lozar because I remember being really interested in the 90s.

The topic itself discourages serious inquiry by journalists, by scientists, because you have to wade through so much crap. You know, 90, 95 percent of it is total crap. It is honest misidentifications of prosaic objects. But that five percent, it's really interesting. And that's why the government is now, you know, looking into it once again.

Nghia, it is really weird to see the government looking into it openly. That's what's strange. Like the fact that they're like the younger version of me would be like bracing myself for contactor, like it's comment that they're talking to us about it now, because my thought was always like they probably if UFOs are real and aliens exist, they happen in contact. They probably don't think we can handle it. So they probably want to keep us as calm as possible and just dismiss everything and go back to work, go back to sleep, do what you gotta do.

Don't pay attention to this. This is all nonsense. And that's what most people do. But when the government is actually openly discussing the fact that they not only have been studying this, but they have some video footage of some things they cannot explain. And they're saying this just out in public, in legitimate recognized publications, newspapers, television shows.

It's it's weird to see a very weird for me now it's, you know, 33 years that I've been chasing this and I become an I don't want to talk about me, but I mean, I've become the UFO reporter, whether I like it or not. I'm not the UFO reporter. I'm a reporter who is interested in that. The UFO stories I've done and all that time, it's been a lot. But as a percentage of all the reports that I do, it's small, right?

I'm a news guy. I chase bad guys mostly for the ITN. But those those UFO stories have gone all over the world. The UFO field is so polluted with with liars and exaggerators and fast buck artists and and people who appropriate this story for their own political agendas to make money, to get attention. It it takes 90 percent of your energy just to wade through the crap and get to the heart of facts. And there aren't that many of them.

And to figure out who's telling the truth, who's reliable, who's honestly trying to pursue the story and get to the truth, it's it's a it's a task that is difficult. And I I don't blame other journalists for not giving it a fair shake because it's not something that you do at a week. I remember saying to myself is how cocky I was in the beginning is, you know, I'm reading these UFO books and boy, this field is a mess, but there is some good information in here.

Give me six months and I'll have this figured out. Well, here's thirty three years later. I know less than I did. Now I know I have a lot more facts in my head, but all the big questions wouldn't have answers to him. I don't think anybody does who they are, where they're from, why they're here, what they're interested as in us, what the long term agenda is. We don't know that and I don't think anybody does.

I've gone pretty far out for high up the food chain as a career journalist. What what did it feel like to you when you started seeing the government actually coming out and saying, we are trying to investigate these reports. We know that there is something to them. These are real claims by, you know, real pilots, real scientists who have reviewed these things and they find them troubling.

It is a it's a mix. The most immediate reaction is astonishment because of all the years I'm chasing this. Everywhere you go, you run into brick walls when dealing with the government. That's really what got my attention and where I wanted to focus because I can't go out and wait for UFOs to show up, although I've done that. But I wanted to follow the paper trail. The government has this whole big, long history of documents that they exchanged reports, memos, incident reports about UFOs before the Freedom of Information Act became the law of the land.

And they're very candid with each other. They're not that way anymore. They hide stuff. But back in those days, they were candidate. This is from somewhere else. This is real. It's not fictitious. We need to look into this. We got to make sure it's not Russians or Chinese. And we figure out who's got this technology because we don't it's not ours. And then, of course, when Freedom of Information Act became the law of the land, all these agencies that had lied about it, nope, wouldn't have any UFO reports have to cough up thousands and thousands of pages.

They have absolutely stonewalled us and lied to the public for a long. Time, so to finally see them admit, yes, we're taking it seriously. Which I have known all along. Of course they have to study this unknown craft flowed over our nuclear missile bases. Disarm the missiles. We have fighter jets go after him. They leave him in the dust. They can fly circles around our best technology. They mess with nuclear power plants, nuclear weapons, nuclear facilities like Los Alamos.

It is a national security issue and they have been paying attention to it. They just haven't been telling us. So for The New York Times to come out in December 2017 and say, yeah, there was a program. And yeah, they've been looking UFOs. Oh, by the way, it's all done now. Well, it's still a mixture of lies and and some glimpses of truth. But I never thought I would see this in my lifetime.

I never thought I'd see this much progress. The last two and a half years has been the most astonishing time in the history of this subject. And I'll take it. Joe, there is stuff bubbling right under the surface now that is going to rock our world, I think, in the next year or so.

Do you see Trump on TV being interviewed by Sun? Yeah, it's kind of hilarious. There's very interesting things. Very, very interesting.

We're going to look at Roswell and open Roswell. I think one main Area 51.

Yeah, well, he's barely paying attention. I think he has been briefed. Yeah, I think he has been briefed more than once. You know, I think because he watches Tucker Carlson and Tucker's got a UFO people on there once a month does. Yeah, he's been he's had for the last year. He's had UFO people once a month or so, Lou Elizondo and Chris Melan and people like that. And I thought that would, if anything, that would get Trump's attention because, you know, that's what he pays attention.

Right.

That's that's hilarious. These stories about UFOs over nuclear bases and weapons facilities and things along those lines. Is that been substantiated? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. So this happened to tell me the stories 1975.

They called it the northern tier case. So we have a string of bases up by the Canadian border all the way across the U.S. from Maine to Montana. Nuclear missile facilities, they were ready to go in the darkest days of the Cold War. Those those missiles, ICBM, are ready to go aimed at Moscow and other places. And in 1975, 74, 75. One after another, these bases were visited. They thought they were mystery helicopters or something.

Lights in the sky right over the missiles. In a couple of cases, they they disabled the missiles. If we had gone to war, we wouldn't have had those missiles being able to fire. There are some indications that the launch control codes were interfered with. And then we scrambled jets, military personnel. It reported this up and the things go away. We can't catch them, whatever they were.

It clearly is a threat to national security.

Must not be for second hand. Is there an official record of these encounters? Yes.

And those documents, you can find him. Washington Post broke the story in the 70s. They had obtained some of these documents after Freedom of Information Act came forward.

And then the most recent study, bass, all SAP that we could talk about. They also really focused on the northern tier cases. And they looked up some of those guys. They found some of the nuclear missile officers and security personnel and interviewed them and they told the story all over again. There's a guy named Robert Hastings, UFOs and Nukes. He has been his specialty for the last 30 years. He wrote a book, made a film. It's chilling.

Part of what has happened is it not only happened to us, the U.S., but in Russia. So once I got UFO fever and became a UFO reporter, I traveled all over the world. And one of the places I went twice was Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union. It occurred to me that maybe we might be able to learn more from the Russians about what our government knows about UFOs than our government will ever tell us. And I met a Russian physicist who was here in the U.S. to lecture on disarmament issues at national labs.

He was getting ready to go back to Russia. He had been the national security adviser to Boris Yeltsin. He was a national security adviser to the Russian parliament. He had taught Russian cosmonauts how to spot American nuclear submarines from space. He was connected. So I had a beer with him at the suggestion of a U.S. congressman. And I said, hey, Nikolai, you ever hear any of your guys in Russia at high levels talk about UFOs? Now, I can't.

Can't really think that I. That doesn't ring a bell. We have another beer. And he says, you know, I do have a guy at the KGB who told me that they had looked into it for a while. And I thought, well, they had just the KGB, it just released its Oswald files, that maybe this is a golden opportunity to find out what they know because they are a superpower, they have nuclear weapons. They would have seen the same things we've been seeing.

So I went to Russia. We sent Nikolai over to back to Moscow, gave them a stipend, and his instructions were fine. People who were in a position to know high up in the military or the pilot of the government who have never talked about this before. And it took about eight months for him to report back and get all these people lined up. And then I went to Russia and Matto and interviewed him. And these were former. Military guys, there was a guy named Colonel Borra Sokoloff who was a goldmine of information.

He told us about a previously unknown study. Probably the biggest UFO study in the history of the world for 10 years, from 78 to 88. The Russian military empire, every military unit in Russia, in their whole military global, if they saw any ball of light, a Nobelists aircraft, UFO, anything weird like that, they had to report it to the KGB. And they're all that information went to one desk at the Ministry of Defense. Colonel Sokoloff was that desk and they had thousands of reports that had never been made public before.

He told me about 45 different incidents where Russian warplanes had chased UFOs, couldn't catch him. Three of the instances these UFOs shot him down to, those pilots died. And after that, he said the order went out. Look, if you see these things, don't mess with them, he said. Their study was for a very practical reason. These craft could do things that the Russians could not, and they wanted to get an advantage over the Americans in terms of stealth technology.

So they wanted to do what people in reverse engineering programs are doing, figure out how the UFO was work so they could have an advantage over us. I had to smuggle some of these documents back if I had been caught with this stuff because some of it was classified. If I'd been caught, I'd still be in a gulag somewhere. But I got it back. I shared it with some people. It eventually found its way into the U.S. government's hands.

And it it tells us basically a lot of what we now know about our own government, that they have always taken this seriously. And one of the incidents I'm sorry I made the long way around in that story was an ICBM base in the Ukraine. Colonel Sokoloff says that a giant UFO appeared over this base. These are missiles that are trained to go to New York and Los Angeles. They're very serious stuff there. It's a very secure facility. Giant UFO appears over this base.

It splits into pieces and then it melds back apart and and it performs this dazzling display for a couple of hours. That base is on high alert and all of a sudden the nuclear control facilities lights up like a Christmas tree. And whenever this thing was, it entered the launch control codes. The missiles were enabled. They start firing up. They're ready to go. And then, poof. UFO goes away. The whole thing shuts down. It goes back to normal.

Colonel Sokolov said his team, he and his team sent there to investigate it. They took the machines apart, could not figure out what it had done. And he told me on camera, we think that they were sending us a message that these are your most powerful weapons. But we're not impressed. Same kind of thing happened here. We don't like to admit it, but there's a pretty strong paper trail that it really did happen. Now, what is a bigger national security issue than that?

Or like the Tic-Tac? You've got a nuclear powered carrier there and other warships around it. And you got these strange radar site sightings for a couple of weeks right off the coast of the U.S.. This is an intruder. And even though these aliens, whatever they are, are not firing beams and wiping out our our cities, you have to consider it a threat. That's the job of our Defense Department. They don't know what it is, but they know it shouldn't be there and it's not ours.

And I think that's what the program is going on right now. It's a legitimate national security issue. It deserves to be investigated in spite of the larger social implications that we're not alone.

Tick tock craft are tic tac craft. God, yeah. Tick tock. You can't get away from that. The Tic TAC craft that was spotted off San Diego. It performed something spectacular in terms of its ability to go from the surface of of the water to 60000 feet. In how long?

Less. Less. Less than a second. But there's actually more to it. There was a craft member I was talking with Commander Fraser before this was public. You know, there was a craft under the water to the Tic TAC would drop from 60000 feet, is what they're saying, 60, 80. But that's the scan volume of the spy one radar. So everybody I've talked to said they were coming from above. They were coming from outer space, dropping down within a second and stopping on a dime and then making the movements come out of favor song but pop up public instead of a glass.

Then he said to me in our first talk ever, I'll never forget this because I'm talking to a fighter pilot and I got to talk. Fighter pilot. I don't know. And he says to me, it noticed me. I go, What do you mean it noticed you? He says, As I was descending rapidly to engage it, it turned its nose and began to intelligently mirror. My movements came right up by me. And he says, faster than you can see a like you can't even see a bullet leave the gun.

No. It just, bam, shut off he goes, we don't have anything like that. I wish we did. We don't. Whatever propels that is not a reactionary propulsion system. Meaning it's not pushing something off the back to get it to go full, like everything else, fire and explosion. It's a field proposal.

Like anything else, you know, you got to have something going back to go forward. Rockets. We're still using the same ones for background day. This thing instantaneously, without effects of inertia can move now. And that distortion. That's exactly how Bob described these things would work or do work in his opinion. So Commander Freyberg got to see it now. And these incursions, by the way, look there, stuff George reports on. There's a lot he doesn't as a filmmaker myself.

People tell me stories all the time, these incursions. It's not a rarity. These are happening to this day. I just heard about one in Guam, incursions over high security airspace, over our weapons systems. And in Guam, there was just recently an incursion, the Pantex facility with the igloos where we hold our nuclear weapons and stuff like that. There are incursions over these to Georgia's point. The reason why maybe all this is secret is not because we can't handle it.

People flip out. Maybe we just want to make sure we fucking get this tech first because it's a game changer.

Now, let's talk about the people that have tried to debunk this and why they're off, because they've made some debunking claims about some of these videos and about the technology that was used to track these things. That's incorrect. Where they don't they don't really understand what they're debunking. Right. So please, please explain that, because that's one of things that people are immediately going to go to. They're going to go well, Mick West has already debunked it.

And I've read the stuff that he says it's mental gymnastics to try to explain it the way he's explaining it, without recognition of the fact that these things were actively blocking radar. These things were actively blocking tracking systems. These were physical crafts. This is not like a bird now or so. There isn't a lot of the wacky theories that he has. Like, I wonder, you know, it's real weird like that a smart man can make such really bizarre conclusions very weird, almost like someone wants him to do those.

Sure. I mean, look, it's so exciting that we're seeing something and the government saying, OK, these are UFOs. We have not identified them. They have propulsion techniques that we don't have and we're not. We're just talking with the videos.

Let's talk about the debunking. OK, talk about the debunking and what his claims are in the debunked.

OK, so one that I recently like, you know, attacked because it was so ridiculous as he was saying that the go fast video, which is this, you know, object that goes along in a straight line, one of the three videos that was released, he said what was probably a bird that was his first thing to pull up the go fast video.

Yeah.

I mean, I recently went deep in to talking with Boeing experts who who work on these fleer pods. They're telling me how they work, what they can capture.

Why blame what a flowerpot is a for a forward looking infrared.

So basically on fighter planes, you have a camera.

So here's a video we're pulling in a pressure that's mounted and it's essentially recording in thermal imagery. These things are. This is not Instagram. These things are weapons systems that are highly trained to be able to accurately represent spatial awareness and to be able to target enemy combatants. That's. This is not an iPhone and Instagram. These are weapons for us. So out of the three videos, if we just look at this one, although I like the Tic TAC one with Komander favorite, I like the GMHBA one.

Those are awesome. This one gives us very little information. But the idea that this would be a bird, if you talk to anybody that uses these pods, you don't you can't pinpoint on a bird. You can't lock a weapon system on a frickin bird.

Well, look how fast it's going to work.

Here's what's so interesting is everybody can debate speed.

So this is where it's locked in on it. Right now, the weapon system is locked in on this thing and it's tracking it now. Right.

And if they got real excited when they locked it, because they this had boxed a moving target. Right. So here's the deal, though. Anything I could say about this video? Because there's not a lot of information in there. What I can say is that object you're seeing is colder than the surface of the ocean. Now, I looked up the surface of the ocean temperature at that location at that time because we had the information. It was like 65 degrees.

What propulsion systems? OK. So a bird a bird is about 100. And that's a five degrees like a seagull. Seagulls can go maybe 15 miles an hour and a half faster can go. But they wouldn't they wouldn't be colder than the ocean. They'd be hypothermic and dead. It cannot be a bird because this what we're seeing is a colder object than the surface of the water. That's why you're seeing it white.

And how fast is it going? That's under debate. There's different interpretations yet, so I'm I'll give you one interpretation about, you know, 240 miles an hour, some people say, and then they can argue, well, the fastest bird in a nosedive could go that fast backup. We have an object that is colder than the surface of the ocean that immediately gets rid of the bird theory because a bird would be hypothermic and drop like a paperweight into the water.

It cannot fly at that. So that's the piece of information I would attack that debunking with.

But this video, when you're watching that, if it is going 200 miles an hour, that's not outside of what's possible with with spacecraft or aircraft or or just planes. Right. But but it's cold. I understand it. That's pretty cool. But it is.

It does it's very interesting. But it's not moving anywhere near as fast as the tick to.

No, no, no. This is just something because this is part. And George can tell you this is part of a much bigger series of events. So like the Gimbel craft itself, that's another debunking thing. They said it's a plane banking away and you're seeing it through thermal. First of all, talk with the pilot. Not fucking.

So this is the Gimel. Yeah. The Gimbel's pulling up right now. And how fast is this thing supposed to be going?

You know, the speed, from what I recall, wasn't registered on the on the radar. It's not that it's going fast. If you talk with the pilots, it was rotating. It was spinning like a top and for like eleven hours without refueling. I mean, the thing was just sitting out there. This was not a. This is an occurrence that happened over the course of many, many weeks now when it rotates like that. The debunking theory is that you're seeing a plane bank.

So as if our military doesn't know what another plane is. Other planes look very different when you see them through thermal. This thing was self rotating and I just did an interview.

And how fast is this or rather how warm is this thing supposed to be? Is this supposed to actually be hot?

I, I am unaware. I was looking at it through thermal, right? Yeah. I'm unaware of the specifics of that one when it comes to heat. All I know is that it is self actuating. It is not something that is a glare or flare of a heat signature, making it look like it's turning the actual craft itself. Actuating.

And what is that halo around it? That's just an artifact of the of the fleer thermal. It's not the the premise that the U.S. government would tell you. All right, look, we're going to release these videos reluctantly. Lou Elizondo is the guy that got him released and then the U.S. government formally released them. A couple of months ago, the idea that the U.S. government would release it. The Pentagon says these are unidentified. And, you know, if it was a bird or a jet engine, the pilots would not have the kind of reaction that they had that you can hear on the audio.

You know, our government does not tell members of Congress, the Pentagon doesn't go to the Senate Intelligence Committee, show them those videos and say, yeah, it's unidentified if it isn't. And, you know, the reaction of the pilots, the fact that they would were forced to release it to begin with suggests there really is unidentified. Why?

And they've addressed it. Why do you think that they have addressed the fact they're studying these things? Why not just continue denying it? I think they were forced to.

And some props to Tom DeLong.

I know you guys had a pretty spirited conversation when he was here, but he created a way of using Lou Elizondo, who ran that program, came forward and brought with him those videos. I saw them two days after Lou Elizondo stepped on a stage with Tom and said I was in charge of the program. He and Chris Mellon have been sort of the engineers of getting that story into The New York Times. That changed everything, as I said, the last two and a half years.

Everything has turned on its head. The New York Times covers the story. The result is other media covered as well. They've been ignoring it forever. And that and that allowed people who keep these secrets. That pressure meant that people in Congress started asking questions two days after the story came out. I interviewed Senator Harry Reid, who was the one who got the money to create that program. That became a tip. And he said his phone had been ringing off the hook from other members of Congress who are now suddenly interested.

I didn't know there was a program there telling him, how do we learn more about this? It started a series of closed door briefings on Capitol Hill that continued to this day. The pilots like Dave Raver were hauled before Congress first and for the staff of the Senate Intelligence and then Senate Armed Services and then the elected members, these these senators who get briefed on it. And they were impressed and they wanted more pilots to come in. So it's been going on for two and a half years and two weeks ago.

Now, excuse me, about a month ago now, the culmination of Senator Marco Rubio, who is now the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, drops his bill. And it's the budget for the intelligence budget for next year. And he includes a UFO provision in there. We want Congress wants to have a mechanism set up by. Where we get regular briefings from the Pentagon on UFOs. That's an astonishing change of events. It's because the media pressure and then congressional interest.

It made it more acceptable for everybody to pursue the subject matter. It's kind of out of the shadows. And the Pentagon has reacted in fits and starts. So sometimes, as they said to The New York Times, that program ended, had nothing to do with UFOs. At first they said it did. Then they said it didn't. They've admitted Lou Elizondo worked on the program. Then they said he didn't. They said that the Allsopp, which is the other program, the mother program that became a tip, that that had nothing to do with the UFO was what it did.

So they continue to sort of lie and abuse Kate and muddy the waters. But the fact is that there's too much momentum from media and Congress and the public to hide this anymore.

You should tell Joe about how the government program up was created directly because George wrote this book about a little place called Skinwalker Ranch with the government, with studying this property. That happened because of his book, some DEA guys. Well, you should tell the story of that place. Yeah, but you. Yeah, right.

Yeah. Yes. Yeah. I think you've got to. I think you've got to a little misled on.

Tell him tell him how the governments that he started you know, from your work. It's fascinating.

Some of it, some of it stems back to Lozar. So we did that story and the series in 89. One of the first people to call me after that was a guy I'd never heard of before, named Robert Bigelow, a billionaire. He calls me up and says, I was really interested in that. I've been interested in UFOs for a long time. Can I help you? Meaning can he help fund me? I said I worked for a TV station.

I don't need any help. But he was not to be deterred. He then reached out to Lozar. They had a little he started meeting with him and pumping up for information, and that really amplified Bigelow's lifelong interest in it. He created something called Nids, the National Institute for Discovery Science, which he he made a science advisory board of the best and the brightest in both the UFO field and the field of consciousness. So they're looking at two questions.

Is there is there life elsewhere in the universe? Is it here? And it is. Do humans survive after death? And you assemble this board. Former CIA guys, two former astronauts, men who had walked on the moon, Dr. Edgar Mitchell. Dr. Help put off physicists. Psychologists are really a brilliant little think tank to take on these two topics. I was allowed to be a fly on the wall for some of it. Not all of it, but some.

And I told Harry Reid about it in 1996 and he said, can I go? And so he showed up and sat in on the meetings and he was kind of hooked.

Harry Reid was the first person I told about Bob Lozar outside of our newsroom. When I before we aired the stories he had, I had known him since he first ran for Congress in 1982. Then he become Senate majority leader. So he had always had an interest in it, but he didn't want it to be known publicly. That does not help your re-election chances. So in two thousand and five, we write the book about Skinwalker Ranch needs. That team bought the ranch.

They were on the property for seven or eight years at that point and had hundreds of different incidents that they investigated. They approached it like scientists would. They looked for prosaic explanations. They looked for gravity anomalies. They like look for psychoactive plants. Could there be hallucinations caused by magic mushrooms or something? Are the witnesses lying? They investigated the background of the family that lived there, and they found out that it could not be explained that all the range of activity there.

So it was not only a lot of activity. We're. Well, with starts with U. Of O's because that's what got their attention. The Uinta Basin in northeastern Utah has always been a UFO hotspot. Everybody who lives there basically has seen some balls of light orbs, structured craft, daylight, nighttime. In 1976, a guy named Dr. Frank Solsbury wrote a book about it, the Utah UFO display, and he took hundreds of these cases that have been collected by the locals.

There was a local science teacher named Junior Hick's who, because he had taught generations of kids science in that area. When people would see a UFO, they'd call up Junior Hicks and he went, man, go and investigate him. And he had at hundreds and hundreds of files. He gave them over this guy, Solsbury, who wrote a book about it. And he said, these are real. You know, they're going on. But Junior Hicks would disregard any high strangeness cases that came along with the U.S. POWs, anything weird, Bigfoot, ghosts, anything like that.

He thought it was too incredible any and he discarded that. Bigelow buys the ranch. He hears about these stories going on. There's one property flies and meets with a rancher. And by this time, that rancher and his family had lived on the ranch for 20 months. And they were so scared that he, his wife and his two kids were all sleeping at night on the floor in the same room because it had messed with him so badly that their property had had.

Ghost type activity, poltergeist kind of things, trickster activity, for example, the wife goes shopping to the grocery store, she buys all this food, comes back, puts it on the table, takes out, puts it in the shelves, leaves the room, comes back in. All the food's back in the bag. She would take a shower in the morning, locks the door, puts a towel and a hairbrush on the cabinet, gets out of the shower door, still locked.

Hairbrush in. Talor gone. Dad's out in the field. He is a digna posthole using a posthole digger, happy piece of equipment. He stops for a second, wipes his brow, looks back and it's gone. And they find it two weeks later up in a tree. They start hearing voices at night and in the air speak in a strange language. They start seeing shapes outside the window at night, big lurking humanoid shapes, hearing heavy footsteps outside, then hearing heavy footsteps inside.

Then their animals started being mutilated. Cows, wood.

The tracks would lead out into the snow and then just be gone. Cab's mutilated, cut up with surgical precision. Katz wiped out. Cut up. Carved up dogs that were vaporized.

Hundreds of these incidents, they would see holes in the sky like a great big hole in the sky and things flying in and out of it. Now, this rancher, college educated guy grounded a strict religious guy thinks the government is trying to run of office property. So he's out there at night lurking with a gun, trying to catch whatever government agents are doing this stuff. And it's not government agents. It was something else. They start seeing UFOs of all shapes and sizes.

The first one they saw was like a they thought it was a Winnebago. This ranch is a beautiful place and it only has one way in and one way out. They see these two lights that look like headlights down in the third homestead. How did this guy get past the house here and get down there? He must be stuck. Let's go down and help him out. The lights start coming toward he and his son. Then they go up into the sky, up over the trees, and then, poof, gone.

These different kinds of orbs, the white ones that were intelligently controlled, not fireflies, not bugs, blue ones that would go they seem to touch the the fear center in your brain. They'd get Nerem.

They look like a little bigger than a softball made out of glass with a swirling blue liquid. Scared the hell out of the animals. And then it scared the hell out of the people, too. This literally drove them to their knees with fear. These red orbs that would stampede the cattle, they lost so many cattle that they began to think that they were going to go under. They had these four prized bulls and jumping around. But there's a lot of stories there that these four prized bulls, two thousand pounds each behemoth's very expensive animals because they were raising Semmens.

All cattle had them in the in the corral. And the husband and wife, they always felt like they're being watched. He says to the wife, as they're driving to town, man, if something happens to one of those bulls, we'll go under. We'll be done. They come back a half an hour later. All four of the bulls are gone. They jump out. They're freaking out. Where did they go? Did somebody steal them or their rustlers?

Looking around all over the place in this corral is a metal trailer where they used to store tools. And there's only one door into it. And it's it's locked with this heavy piece of wire. The door's still locked. The wire is still on there. The guy, just as a last resort, he looks into the grating on top of this trailer. And there's the four bulls inside. Door's still locked. They're all crammed in there. Now, you can take a forklift.

You can have a team of 50 people. And they couldn't get those bulls in that trailer. But there they were. He yells to his wife, Hey, honey, they're in here. And when he says that the bulls wake up as if. Out about a trance kicked the door down and all got out. The Nids team, which had been on the property for a couple of years, that point fly in. They'd been in Las Vegas.

They fly back in. They look around. They check out the animals. The whole corral, which is made out of metal, had been magnetized. So whatever technology was used to get those bulls from the corral into that trailer left a magnetic signature. They were there on the property.

The NYTs guys for several years, Bigelow owned it for 20 years. But eventually they gave up whatever this thing was, this intelligence. It did not like being stalked and it played tricks on them. And they never made the stuff public because what are you gonna do, write a paper about this? Who's going to print it? You can't make a a documentary about it because they weren't there.

Is there any evidence? So while all this we're saying those cattle mutilations, I guess that's some evidence, but that's the only evidence of cows. And we can mutilate cows. What what about all this other stuff, like for the first 20 months when the rancher is there?

They don't have any evidence because he's not a paranormal investigator. They're not taking photos or something. They wanted to go away. So they don't have any evidence of that except for what the rancher told them. But then they talked to the larger community and the same thing has been happening to all the neighbors. Guy lives next door, had lost all his cattle as well. Seized the craft. Sometimes these craft would float around. They looked like stealth fighters with Christmas lights around them floating around silently.

Again, I guarantee you have an elf. Not not really. I mean. So Bigelow puts up cameras all over the property, and you had them focused here where some activity had happened before. The thing moves over here. You move the pop the cameras and focus there. It goes away toward the end of the study. Whatever it was that was there, ripped the one of these cameras were ripped to shreds. They're up on top of a telephone pole, 30, 40 feet in the air.

And there's wires that are all secured all the way down the telephone pole. And they noticed that one of their cameras goes out. They figure, well, there's another camera on another poll that should have a view of whatever it was that tour, this up, some kind of animal, whatever. Well, whatever it was, was invisible. And I know it's very frustrating. It certainly was for them and for me to try to write about it in that this thing didn't want to be cut it want to do demonstrated that it was there, but it didn't want to have evidence.

The calf that was mutilated was in. I know it's it's it's a lot to handle.

Yeah. The calf that was mutilated. It was a Sunday morning. It's 10 o'clock on a quiet morning. It's daylight. The rancher and his wife are there by themselves. They're tagging newborn calves tag their ears and they tag this one right by the ranch house 50 yards from their home and they go off across the property. It's a clear day. It's unobstructed that their dog is with them and makes a noise that points them back toward that first calf that they had tagged.

And the and the dog indicates that something's wrong. And they see the mom cow is dragging its leg and going around in a semicircle. It's in distress. They go running back over there. And this calf had been completely stripped of flesh. Nothing left but a hide and bone. And one of the femur bones had been ripped out and thrown on the side. Well, they call in the Nids guys. They bring in trackers. There are no tracks.

There's no human tracks. No no vehicle tracks, no animal tracks. The thing had been completely stripped of blood. There's not a drop of blood on the ground. It's gone. Seventy five pounds of meat gone again over time period of 30 minutes. Is there a team of commandos that comes in and does that special for us to go? Yeah. And there's this is there's evidence of this. Yeah. Photographs. Yeah. Yeah. Can we see that?

Yeah. Where is it. But I mean, I made a movie called Hope at the Skinwalker. It's in there, right? Is that the only place? Yeah, it's it's inspired some other places. There's photos and videos.

I mean, it's said that. I'm with you, man.

We had a speculation about like, why why would they do this and why would they do the cattle mutilations? Like, what is. Yeah.

Is there any speculation that some so some of it is a demonstration. I mean, it seemed to be a demonstration to get their attention. This trickster element has been reported in other places around the world. There's no hotspot quite like skinwalker. And I know how weird it sounds. There's no spot like that because it's never there's no spot that's been studied to that extent. The Nids guys were there for while big loan the property for 20 years needs was active for seven or eight.

Then another secret study funded by the government came in under an organization called Bass. That was the money that Rete got. You got 22 million dollars that went to Bigelow as a contract and they hired all these people and fanned out all over the world to try to find UFO information. But other related phenomena, things that wouldn't seem normally to be connected to UFOs, but which are a guy from the DEA had read the book and became interested and he asked for permission to go to the property.

This guy's a double P HD, a brilliant rocket scientist who had seen it and thought there were national security implications, the hole in the sky in particular with things coming in and out. He wondered if someone was using technology to make these things film that hole in the sky.

Now that again, that's when the rancher is there by himself. So he's not it's not a UFO, guys. Right.

I understand. But is there any evidence of anything weird, anything other than mutilated cows?

Well, let's say they the video of the camera that was torn up by something invisible, they had something that is so in the video, you could see the camera being torn apart.

You can't see anything. You can't there's nothing you can't see anything you can see before it happens. It's normal and afterward.

So I think you're how much time is taking place between before and after? I can't remember. But I mean, could that be hoaxed? Yeah. If Bigelow wanted to. But again, they weren't there, too, in the beginning, at least for Nids. They weren't there to to try to prove that aliens are visiting. They're just trying to figure out why all this weird stuff is happening in one spot. It mixes in a lot of Native American law that got mixed in the picture.

But it's been going on in that you went to Bhasin for 200 years. Why? Don't know.

I mean, our government has studied the matter. So, like, what is evidence? It's so frustrating to me, too, when I was introduced to the skinwalker thing through George. Man, I'm with you. Like, what's the evidence? What's going on? The weight of evidence is when we talk to people in the area and they all have these commonalities. Some people died of exotic cancers from burns from above where lights came down. It hit them.

And that's evidence. Their face is completely irradiated and they fucking died.

So there's the cows, the show. Yeah. So you have a scientists like Dr. Colomb Kelaher.

Hold on for a second. That's where they found it. Look at that. Yes. What in the fuck can that that is so caught? No. Did they scan the area to look for another spot where it could have been slaughtered before it was moved to this area?

That's what they concluded, is it had to have been taken somewhere and slaughtered and then brought back. But now Pluto's that little larger.

Please, can you just zoom in on that? Because that doesn't look very surgical to me. That looks like wolves.

Yeah. There's no just just OK. They actually did an analysis and it was done with two types of metallic tools.

But look at all the jagged edges. They said that. So they took samples and they sent them to pathology labs. Didn't tell the guys what they're looking for. You tell us what you can see. And they the pathologists said that two instruments had been used. One was a heavy machete type instrument that had been hacked. And then there is a scalpel that had surgically removed a lot of the flesh underneath.

It looks like something killed it. And then they moved it to that spot. I mean, if I had to guess the way it's eaten, though, I mean, it looks like he was eaten.

Well, there's no teeth marks. There are metallic marks.

Meaning they like a slice sliced, OK, and there's something sharp sliced.

So I think the bigger point is this was happening on this ranch with owners prior to owners, prior to owners. I think I got to talk to a lot of people. So here's the deal. The connection of this to George does this thing. He reports on this for for 20 years that the government is now studying this ranch rate because of deployment or because of all this weird stuff. Why is the government spending money through up to study this ranch and other things?

And that's where it gets really fucking interesting. What happens after with our government programs?

And that's what, you know, this sum is before you two, that this image, like the jagged edges around the rib cage that's supposedly sliced, that looks like hacked. Hacked. OK.

I mean, look, it could let's say it's people doing this, you know, to farmers to get them out of there. Let's say it's some program. I mean, although the cattle mutilation thing you gave me a stack of documents this big has been studied by the FBI. It was it's happened all over the country. No one has ever been caught. Not a single person has 10000 case with all the same types of cuts.

I mean, this is not my ex.

I've seen a lot of that. It's really weird. There isn't really where and the lack of blood is the weirdest part of it because if see like what makes sense to me.

Is that something killed that they they butchered it, they chopped all the meat off of it, and then they removed the carcass from that area and dropped it off there? Yeah, that's what it looks like. If I had to guess, that's what Nids thinks. There's no way that it was killed right there because you're seeing fresh, clean hay underneath it everywhere. There's no blood. Which doesn't make any sense at all.

I think the question is, is this a government program? Is this something or is this a scare tactic? It's been happening since the 50s.

Like what are weird scares act. It's a click on that one below it, Jamie. That the brown one with the green. Yeah, that one, please. Thank you. That's that's a weird one too. Like that there's like a hole cut out and there's a bunch of these they found all over the country and was weirdness like organs removed. But the weirdest part about it is it's almost always there's no blood. Yeah.

I just investigated one which I never thought I would do, but I got a call from a guy in Texas that to see it physically. Yeah. So right before lockdown, I go out and I'm like, this is so wild. I got to check this out. The guy calls me. It's a pretty freshie one at this point. Now, I'm no expert, but I went and got samples and took him to labs and this sort of thing to see if there were tools used.

So you got here's my experience that he gave my pictures of this.

Yeah. I feel it on your phone.

I'll show you after I got my. Yeah. So I got Redfoot. Great fucking photos. Weird.

Well, listen, man, Syb airdropping to me now.

We'll send him to Jaymie and we'll put it up on one screen so other people could say, OK, OK, so let me after the show is not going to help us, OK?

While you're looking, I'll tell him about one of the theories about the calculations that Dr. Kelaher, Dr. Colomb Keller developed was that somebody is tracking the spread of like mad cow prions through the food supply and that they've been doing it under the guise of UFO since no one would take UFOs and cattle mutilations seriously. They just do it in helicopters and they're instead of just stealing these cattle, they're tracking how far this these indestructible prions travel through the food supply. Because it's in cattle, it's in pigs.

It gets fed into chickens and things of that and feed. It's in deer. It's called chronic wasting disease. And in some circles, it's just weird.

Well, quite frankly, wasting diseases is not a that's a different prion disease than mad cow.

Well, it's a variation. Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease, I think, too. So the same kinds of things in different species. It is indestructible again. So you hit a deer that's got this and you grind it up and you feed it to pigs. The pigs get it. Yeah. And then. And then it could be passed on other species and it shows up in different ways. Kelaher was exploring the idea. Well, whether or not it might be the cause of Alzheimer's or a version of mad cow in humans.

Do you? They're all going to you right now. So this is a read it. Oh, it says downloading. So. Oh, I'm downloading them and then.

Right. Right, right. Are you on the Wi-Fi? No, but it's coming through here and it's about to go to you, says welding. Got it. I mean, I guess this does highlight because this is my very limited amount of I send those to Jamie.

Too gimmicky. Yeah. Everyone up on air drop Gemzar. So I had to do that right away. Threated role as airdrop is open. I don't see bras, bro. Hold on. There you go. Young Jane.

So this is this is the stuff that you physically encountered. OK. You physically saw this cow. And I'm looking at these images right now. And we're going to show them short in a second. And this is you said Texas. Yeah. So where where in Texas.

Oh, gosh. What is the name of it in the panhandle. Yeah, I'm blanking. So, see, here's the deal. Oh, yeah. That's it. So I made the movie based on George's work of the same title, Hunt, Hunt for the Skinwalker. Right. And that movie was telling this story about how the United States government was studying this property land because a UFO is. And weird stuff that. And weird stuff included things like cattle.

Pull up this one. There's a lot of weird images, man, this the skin removed around the face. Right. So this is Mightiness Skull. This is my first chance to see this for myself, because last time I was on your show, it was the ones in Oregon had just happened up at that ranch. And I thought, well, OK, if I'm ever going to do it, now's the time to do it. So I go I get this call.

Now, remind you, this is a rancher. This is like this is their livelihood. It's this huge, huge area of land right there. Stop right there.

They're a very religious community. Nobody we go out to the middle of this land and in the middle there's this dead cow. No blood, no blood. And he had seen it prior. And the reason he called me is because in my movie, you could see the special kind of slice, like a jagged slice that is common to these types of things they think are real mutilations. And he is looking at it. He's like, that's exactly like in the movie.

And this is a straight shooter. He's a religious guy. He had to ask his pastor if he could even, like, go on camera with me. It freaks him out. So he sees this now. He sees dead animals all the time.

And he saw this cow you said before, accidentally.

He was out shooting B.B. guns with his kid. And he's on this big part land and he sees this down bull and he goes over to it. He's looking at it. And it's unlike anything he has ever seen in all of his years before, had surgical cuts. There is no doubt somebody killed cut up this animal with those classic like the ear gone, two types of tools, like a scissor type. But in another way, I tried to cut it.

It is not easy to cut. So they had sharp tools. And then there's like a very thin slice kyp kind of cut. So I got to take it, get samples, take them to labs and try to see what type of tools did this. How did they do this with no blood on the ground and all the soil around it was dead. So I was like, well, why is it all dead? Is that a natural thing?

So I took soil samples and took them to a lab. And again, I'm outside of Mike's.

This is weird to me. But I think they're it's a real phenomenon. Somebody is killing these animals. Something someone whatever you want to say, it's something someone is killing these animals in a highly specified technical way that has been repeated since the 50s on our FBI has studied it. He has shown me so many reports of these in association with disks that saucers.

Did this guy have any association with disks or songs or anything?

No, he's just a guy that owns the land.

Just found this cattle three weirdly, weirdly mutilated.

Somebody killed it. Yeah. And he's like, is this demonic? Is this some sort of Satanist thing? I said, I don't think so, man. This goes back in history.

Like I'm looking at the cuts is specifically they're very unimpressive. What does that is? Does only a laser did it or some sharp scalpel?

No, it was like it was like a serrated one was a serrated tool, another.

That's the thing I'm saying. It's like something that we could do. Oh, absolutely. We'd have to somehow do it, though, on in Texas land where the guy would shoot you in the face if you go and try to touch one of his cows. That's the other thing. No one's ever been caught. Never since. What's weird? Yeah, it's weird.

It's frustrating to know. I've been to the ranch, the skinwalker ranch in the basin more than two dozen times. I've never seen anything. I've interviewed neighbors. I've interviewed the scientists. These are P. D level guys who had seen this stuff. A lot of times they'd have cameras that fail. I mean, it's you know, you've heard that story before. And this is very convenient that it happens just when some giant disk shows up. But it does happen that their car batteries would die in the same spot, whatever it was messed with them.

And maybe it's humans, maybe it is human technology. But no humans were ever found to be doing this stuff. Nids was there for all those years. They didn't want to tell anybody about it. They shared the information with me. But you can't publish it. There's no real physical proof. So they just left it there. And I had tried to do a documentary. Ended up I talked him into let me write a book about it. But, you know, if if people if you're looking for physical evidence and solid proof and they don't happen.

What is the what's the primary thing? Are there any primary theories of why they do this to cows? Why someone's doing this to cows? You know, you need to catch somebody and ask him. I mean, you know, that's that's that's really. Look, man, it's weird that no one's been caught. It's investigate the unexplained. Don't explain the investigate. That's what he always says. And it's like I wouldn't think I would ever be interested in this, but some other.

Cause you said they got a fresh academy mutilation and they you know, they're associated with a UFO phenomenon. Sure. I'm going to look into it. What I find more interesting is what's happening now with the government study that started here at Skinwalker Ranch, Orsa, the one that was in The New York Times and where the information is going now. These are new times. Things are starting to drop to the public.

And what is starting to drop? Well, they so the skinwalker story, lack of physical evidence, though there may be, comes the attention of the Defense Intelligence Agency. This guy, the scientist who sees it, he goes to Bigelow, they go visit the property. He looks around, he has an experience. He's not there 15 or 20 minutes. And something appears inside a house that only he can see. He doesn't say anything about it. Goes back to Washington, meets with Harry Reid in a skiff in the capital and two other U.S. senators.

He presents them as the proposal for a study of UFO shows and related phenomena, not just like a tip looking at flying saucers that encounter a U.S. military, but something more expensive. They put out a contract. Bigelow bids on it, creates an organization called Barth's again that puts together a team of experts of 50 or 60 employees, and they start studying it. They go around the world, they interact with other governments. They get their files. They send out teams to hotspots to try to figure it out.

Looking at whether there are connections between what we call flying saucers, possible aliens and all these other different phenomena. The program goes on for a couple of years and somebody yanks the Yanks the funding and get this, the reason that the DEA suddenly became worried about all this weirdness that was being reported at the skinwalker and elsewhere is because they thought it was demonic. And they thought if this comes out that we're studying this weird phenomena, A, it's going to end up on the front page of The New York Times, which it did.

And B, we might be invoking Satan in here. These were fundamentalist Christians in the Pentagon who pulled the money because they thought it was the devil. I'm not making that up. That's hilarious.

And the program now continues. They keep reporting that it stopped. It hasn't stopped. The U.S. military has been studying UFOs since the beginning. In every branch of our military, they continue to do so. And now every time they get caught in a lie. So it is continued. Tell them about it.

It is continuing. So it all stops. Money was taken away. But the ATIP program, which was what Lou Elizondo headed up that looked just at military UFO encounters, continued. Pentagon says it was ended. It did not. It continued for a couple of years. And after the New York Times story comes out and creates this furor, it got funding and it now has a structured organization. And it is looking into cases where the U.S. military sees these things and off the coast of Virginia.

They've been seeing this stuff. I think Frager talked about it when he was here, these beach balls with the cubes inside of them. And they were sitting there for hours off the coast right where our warplanes would go out for training exercises as if they wanted to be seen. And it went on. There were 70 or 80 witnesses during 2015, 2016 pilots. Some of them were willing to talk about it. Some weren't. It continues to this day.

Now, the program is on more solid footing now. Congress has been informed and they want to expand it and get more information. We are told The New York Times is working on another follow up story to look into reports of what Lozar said, crash retrievals, reverse engineering, the existence of these metamaterials, bits and pieces that grandpa had stashed in a barn somewhere, whether it's Roswell or other alleged crashes that took taking it seriously to figure out if there is something about these materials that we could not have have created.

So the bass program, the awesome program, created a baseline of what we know about the state of our technology right now in different disciplines, lift and propulsion, things of that sort. They commissioned 38 papers. That would be the baseline for what the state of human knowledge was in 2009. And and those papers were were published on a an internal Department of Defense Web site. But they'd never been made public. Six of them have now leaked out.

And I brought along two more for you that have not been made public.

So these are these are like scientific reports based on the government's study of UFOs case that they commissioned these papers. Only a handful have been released to the public. George happens to have a copy more so you can bet you're going to be the first person outside of the program other than me to see that.

So what is it? They're called a dirt. This is a defense intelligence reference document. This paper is on metamaterials. So. How you could engineer existing Earth materials, where you could duplicate what you're seeing up there? None of these papers are two of them actually mentioned aliens or UFOs. They're strictly on what the state of our knowledge is or was. As of 2009. And they reference aliens and UFO only to his papers. And how do they reference?

Well, there's one of the papers that looks at the physical effects of people that come into contact with these unknown craft. And it's sort of like the effects of radiation or microwaves. There are physical effects, hundreds of cases that have been investigated. And that's what that paper looks at. And that's already out there.

Yeah. The harm that is done to the body, what they call up close proximity to a UAP, which is a UFO. There are known effects to the human body that are horrible. And there was a study that focused on the witnesses. They do know how close encounters like military people and then how it negatively impacted their body. So each of these reports as he obtains them or as people find them, they're very illuminating to what our government know.

There was one that looked at how you would track a hypersonic vehicle traveling through space. How difficult would it be? Now, it doesn't say UFO. But it's looking at things that really travel fast, that are coming in from space, interact with Sphere. How would you track that? Now, when that paper was written in 2009, we didn't have hypersonic weapons. Now the Russians claim they've got them. And now it's very timely because we're in a rush to develop those things.

So that was one of the papers that I made public last year. And I interviewed the engineering professor who wrote it. He wasn't writing about UFOs. He was writing about the state of knowledge about hypersonic weapons systems back then. It's a similar thing for metamaterials. That's what this this paper is. How would you engineer materials so you could travel through space that would have say you shoot it with microwaves and it could develop a certain special property.

So just to put into context, maybe because, you know, here's the deal. Our government has now admitted there are UFOs, that that's the world we're living in there. Unidentified objects or craft that seem to outpace outmanoeuvre actively GEMAR radar systems even go over. Our military installations have high sensitivity. There are incursions. All of this is now said it's a different world we're living in. However, the next thing that people are talking about now is, well, we also have materials we call metamaterials, materials associated with UFO craft.

They might even go as far as to say we have whole materials craft from somewhere else.

So when they're saying we have materials associated from crafts, are they saying that they have a crash?

Yes. Yeah. How put off? Who is a physicist who worked with Bigelow on both Nids and Bass made a presentation in Las Vegas in June of 2018 where he says, yeah, we've got these materials and we're trying to figure out where they came from and how they wind engineered because some of them appear to be multilayered that are beyond what is known as engineering capabilities of humans. It looks like they would have had to been made in, say, zero gravity of space.

And we don't have any manufacturing plants up there. He implied that they came from crashes. Doesn't mean it's a UFO from Zeta reticular. It's crashed from somewhere and we don't know whose it is. So they're trying to figure out whether we can duplicate it or not. And I've got a bunch of samples and. Ah. Have you seen any of this? No, I haven't seen Bigelow. And how have you.

I've seen what people claim. So the Army now has these metamaterials that were famously put in through the actually the Coast-to-coast show was called arts parts. I took his lossiemouth. I did. I was able to obtain them briefly and have five scientists from New Mexico that I knew material scientists, physicists interrogate, as they say, the samples for numerous days. I don't believe that I had access to the best equipment. We didn't find anything extraordinary. Other people have said right now the army has.

When you say you didn't find anything extraordinary. Did you find anything ordinary? No, they weren't. Is it. These are the materials here. That's the exact peat.

One of the exact pieces that I had in my hands and worked on with my team. And I filmed it all. But right now, because of TSA, they've made a deal with the army. And I think the army has these parts. But I feel like we're missing that. The big note here, the big note is a few years ago, UFOs are still laughable. Military doesn't look after that. Turns out we have programs that do. I'm suspecting and maybe you can talk more about it, that the next piece of information is that there are reverse engineering programs, which will then make everybody have to look at Lozar story a little bit differently.

Once again, if we admit that we are trying to reverse engineer either materials or actual craft from somewhere else, intelligently designed. Metals or craft somewhere else. If there were a crash retrieval programs for vehicles with we don't know where they're from. That's going to make me look at Bob story even more even more differently, right? It is not a big if. I mean, if if. It's an interesting time.

It is. But I mean, there's no indication that they're willing to discuss some retrieved craft. Right.

Yeah, I think that's a heavy lift. So supposedly The New York Times are working on that story. I think it'd be pretty hard. More than supposedly they are. Yeah, they are. They've been asking people about this stuff. But I mean, to get that into print, to get it passed or editors, that's a hard deal.

Our last extra trust summiteer from the bottom of a wedge shaped craft in the late 1940s made of 26 alternating layers, one, two, four microns, dark, smooth. So I said that bismuth, bismuth and 100 to 200 microns of silver, magnesium, zinc alloy, each of the six pieces received from the U.S. Army source were formed with a curvature that tapered.

So basically, they're saying there's no process that we know of. That would create this alloy layered in that type of layer system. I actually have a piece out about this. It's not kind of how they did samurai swords.

Oh, that's cool. Yeah. I'm not sure that does as alien of any kind. But it is of unknown origin and.

Well, Jack Vella has like 20, as I said last, Jack fucking Valla. He's got like 27 samples of things associated with crash retrieval. So if anybody has an archive of this stuff that's being scientifically interrogated right now. And his studies do show isotopic ratios that are not from this earth. So he's confident with his research.

My big point, he's confident with his research. Of what? Well, you'd have to talk. You should talk with Jack. But he read.

But what is he confident of that you can say that he has that he has alloys that came from UFO crashes or a run off.

Has anybody independently analyzed those things? Yeah. He got a home. He had a presentation. Yeah. Whole teams of people.

How come this isn't like public knowledge was?

Listen, The New York Times got to get you've got to get got to talk with Jack whether you have him as a guest or not. Get to talk. How old is Jack now? Getting up there because he's in his 80s. Yeah.

I'd probably have to go to him. Right. What has he said? He's strong, dude. Whereas Sarah Cisco specifically. No.

Yeah. What's he had. Yeah. Here is the thing. This program is ongoing. It doesn't have to find aliens. There are legitimate national security reasons to be looking at who these who's flying these craft. Things are still being seen over our military installations. And our our Pentagon wants to know who's flying them. And that's a perfectly legitimate inquiry. Regardless, a little green men. No one wants to say they're at the Pentagon, that we're investigating UFOs and aliens.

They're just investigating. Where did these things come from? Are they a threat? Can we duplicate that technology if the Russians or the Chinese get this stuff before we. We do. If they can do what the Tic-Tac did, it's a game changer. So they want to know how whose it is and how we can duplicate it. And that is a perfectly legitimate inquiry, whether there are aliens or not.

What is the most compelling piece of physical evidence to you? I don't know. I mean, I don't know that we have physical evidence other than if Bob Lozar story is true. We've got craft out there that we did make. I mean, the idea that we have stuff that we're reverse engineering to figure out how it was made, that would be that would be the clincher.

I remember reading about Jay Allen Hynek when he was running Project Blue Book. Now, he initially started it with the intent to debunk all of these stories and come up with some sort of rational explanation that could pass off the general public. Swamp gas. As time went on, he became a believer. And I thought that was really fascinating. And then after Project Blue Book closed, he was very open and public about it. I'll give you one of his cases from Project Blue Book.

It's April 18th, 1962. The original explanation is it's a meteor. It comes into a atmosphere over Cuba. It goes all the way up the east coast of the U.S. When it gets to New York, it turns left. It takes a left turn, goes all the way across the United States. At a couple of places, it slows down. It's picked up on radar. Jets are chased after it. They can't catch it. It keeps on going.

He gets to Utah. There's a little town called Eureka and it lands lands in Utah, knocks out the power to the whole town. Then it takes off again. That's a heck of a meteor. It gets over near Mesquite, Nevada, and explodes. And this thing, the explosion was seen for hundreds of miles is so at Las Vegas and Reno. I had interviewed a team that went out there to look for pieces. They thought it might have been an airplane that exploded, supposedly never found it.

A meteor that travels, takes a left turn, slows down lands, takes off again. That's like no meteor I ever heard of, but jail on Heinrich's team from Bluebook in their files. That's how they explained it away.

The best evidence for me, because, look, I'm just curious about this. This is just one of those places where all the answers aren't there. I want to know, man. So the best evidence for me, because I ask that same question to everybody. It's it's the fact that we're being lied to. That alone we can prove that we can prove that our government intelligence agencies have actively partake in lying to us about the UFO subject, that there are craft of unknown origin that fly with impunity in our airspace globally and throughout history.

And so the fact that they are lying and have been lying, that makes me I'm like, why you lied to me? Then I want to find out. So for me, that's the greatest evidence that there's scientific studies on this stuff and everybody's hushed. The farkash about it. Why is it like North Korea had leapfrogged?

That's 50 years ago. So all of a sudden, you know, that's our enemy. I mean, who is operating this craft that comes in from outer space, drops down to sea level dorks like the tick tock was docking with a USO, an under watercraft, and it outpaces our military jets. You got to be dead to not be curious about this. So that's the greatest evidence to me, is the fact where we've been lied to as an American population and we're just starting to peel back layers that this shit Israel and our militaries worried about it.

Well, if we hadn't been lied to, at the very least, they haven't felt it. Well, if they don't have real evidence other than this stuff that we're discussing of this is all they have. I don't know what they would tell the general public. Totally. Also part of the problem.

Yes. What do you say? You know, as I said, this is an amazing time. We're getting closer to knowing what the government knows, but that doesn't mean we'd have an answer. Right. I don't think they know either.

That was always my take on. It was like, why would they talk to the government? Like if you came from another planet and you were looking at us as weird territorial chimps with nuclear weapons, what would you why would you pick one group and then talk to them as opposed to just the general public? Why would you. Elected leaders, would they really be important to you? Like, it doesn't make any sense at all. I never really bought bought into the stories that there'd been a formal meetings or anything.

I think the government is as clueless as the rest of us. They have more information because they have the sensors to collect it. They have a giant apparatus, sensors that detect things coming in and out of space and radar somewhere. There's a giant pile of information that we have been able to see. But it doesn't mean that it answers the question. This this thing has been with human humans throughout history and it's always just tantalizingly out of reach, you know, used to be golden shields and that be swords and flaming chariots.

And now it's flying saucers and it looks like technology that maybe we could someday achieve. But it's always out of reach and I think it will remain out of reach.

Well, there's the one thing that Bob talked about from some of the documents that he had been given when he was working at S4 was that they had actually taken a part in engineering human beings. And that is to me, like if you if you wanted to say, well, what's what's the things going to get people to roll their eyes the most? Well, you would say, well, the aliens came down here and they the. They got a hold of the lower hominids and they accelerated the evolutionary process and they created human beings, people, a lot of people go get the fuck out of here.

That's crazy. But if you look at people, one of the weird things about people's how much we vary, we're so different. Like not like any other animal. Like other than dogs and dogs are the way they are because we've fucked with them as we manipulate them. We are the dogs of the rest of the world. You know, if you really think about it, we're so different than every other primate. There's not even anything close to us.

And I know there were some other human species, you know. How do you say it to Dino? Right. There's Neanderthals, Homo floresiensis, which was those little Hobbit people.

There have been a bunch of other humanoids, but nothing that came close to what we are.

And if you look at ancient ancient primates and us, the leap between them and us is so quick. The doubling in the human brain size over a period of two million years is just bonkers. Like, they don't know why. They don't know what happened. They have no idea. But if if that really is what happened, they said, listen, they're going to get there. But we can help. Like Woods is Liz's jump in because these things like, look, chimps are still chimps, right?

They're still murdering each other. There's still Taron monkeys apart and eaten them alive. They're still doing the same things they've been doing for thousands and thousands of years, whereas we're living in condominiums and watching cable. You know, it's like whatever has happened to humans has happened so that the advancement is so unique. It's so different than any other animal.

If we really have been visited since the beginning of time, since history, if all those biblical stories and all the stories from the Bhagavad Gita and all these ancient texts that do talk about the Mana's and flying crafts and beings that come down from upon high, if all that really is aliens intervening with the biological evolution of human beings, how fucking weird are we?

You know, I mean, if you think about how we're we are, period. I mean, maybe that would kind of explain that there were some stupid science experiment.

Well, you know, people say, I want disclosure. I want to know we're ready. We can handle it. Are you sure you can handle that? True. I mean, are you sure you can handle it? Because we don't know exactly what it is that can be disclosed. But what if it turns out that we're an agricultural product, you know, that we are being harvested for something or we're being allowed to to breed in kind of a serious science experiment?

Let's see where this goes. And then when it's time to end the experiment. I mean, I'm not sure people can handle it. Look at how they've handled it.

Well, if you would think about if if aliens coming down and interfering with weapon systems and interfering with nuclear launch codes and things along those lines, like if you think about the uptick in alien sightings and activity post Hiroshima and Nagasaki, that would kind of make sense.

Like, all right, these fucking dickheads, they've gotten to a point where they can do some really crazy shit and they literally might ruin this whole thing. They figured out how to light the match.

Like, if you if you take this primate, this animal, and you embed it with these superior or at least more evolutionary advanced genetics, then you manipulate it to a point where you make it weaker but smarter, far more curious and obsessed with innovation. Just leave it there. Well, it's just a matter of time. Like, how much is that time? Is it a thousand years? Ten thousand years. Over time, they're going to figure out some crazy shit because they're just going to keep working together like they do.

And then boom, bombs go off like, all right, we've got to signal these crazy fucks and figured out how to split the atom. We got to get down there and keep a closer eye on these people.

I'm open to that possibility of that being the case.

I mean, it's this weird, craziest idea. No, there's crazier ones being put out today. Just the big bang is the craziest idea.

We all agree on that. That's the craziest thing. The whole universe came out of. Nothing smaller than the head of a pin instantaneously creates everything you see in the night sky. Okay.

The technology that shows up that may be reverse engineered or crafter bits and pieces. You know, I sometimes equate it with let's throw us were aliens. Let's throw us a cell phone into a chimpanzee cage here. Have at it. See how you do for a while. I don't know that we're ever going to figure this stuff out.

Well, more than that, it would be like let's let's take a chimpanzee and let's manipulate its brain and leave him with a bunch tools. You know, give it give it some things and see what it comes up with and then come back and try again. I mean, maybe Neanderthal was like, well, you know, they're. I'm gonna get any further past this, like this this project. We need to scrap it. Start with something new.

I don't think that's not.

Look, we do weird shit to animals. I mean, we study them and we you know, I was just talking to a friend of mine about zoos, about how bummed out I was when I went to this Wolf sanctuary, cause everyone is like, oh, it's amazing to see these wolves that they've rescued. I got there. I saw a bunch of castrated wolves that were living in prison. I didn't think it was cool at all. It freaked me out.

I got really depressed.

I, I think what you look at, what we're willing to do to chimps.

I mean, I remember going to I forget maybe it was Denver. I forget where it was the zoo, but there was a zoo where there was this monkey that was in a cage that was screaming, just scream like he was going crazy. Was a small cage and people were walking around.

He's just. And I was like, he's probably going mad. This is not how a monkey's supposed to live. They're supposed to be in the jungle, in the wild, you know, harvesting food and living with other monkeys. Not supposed to be alone in a cage where these other weird primates walk by and stare at it. And it just overwhelms all of its defense systems and survival systems. We're willing to do that to things that we know, or at least slightly intelligent, like what would be willing to do weirder, more advanced experiments to primates to create.

And how do you tell a population, if you do study UFOs is the government and you find out, okay. Shit, they're graphed in. They're coming in. They're probably studying us. Like, how do you fucking tell people that, like, how are people going to react? And the way that it's so compartmentalized? That's been the best proof to me as well. If I've talked to somebody who's worked on a project and they're like all I saw was a supercapacitor in 1974 and I know this was not something we made.

He was told nothing else. He just saw a technology that was more efficient than anything he had ever seen. Should the idea that people are funneling this information, whoever is funneling it and protecting this information, as we see how all SAP and atrip didn't get special access permission. That's a special type of program. They knew about crash retrieval programs, so they said we want to compare notes and information with other UFO projects. They were denied access.

The door door was slammed in their face when they tried to ask Senator Reid, who was Senate majority leader, had asked for permission to create it as an essay pay special access program so they could get access to other goodies.

And they said no, like other retrieval programs, material program stuff that Bob is talked about. So just the fact that it's it's so hidden, even within its own mechanism, that they won't allow this scientific team to work on this project. It tells me, as Ravi says, something's up. I mean, something's up.

Well, that was one of the weirder things about Bob's description of areas for. About how compartmentalized everything was about.

You know, one group worked on metallurgy. The other group worked on propulsion. And they didn't share information.

It pissed him off so bad, man.

Well, it was what the way he described best. Is that scientific research, the way you progress is? Everybody works together and it doesn't happen in a vacuum. So they were literally trying to do scientific research without the scientific method. They were trying to withhold information from them and only get them to concentrate on one aspect of this project without the whole group coming together and getting some sort of a comprehensive understanding of what these things are.

Bob said he wasn't the most qualified person to do the job either. Freaked him out and he didn't have the right materials even.

Well, I think they probably look, let's assume they are alien spacecraft. They probably knew that no one was qualified. They probably knew that we did. We just really have no idea, especially if they had been working on these things for decades, like Bob assumed they had been. They probably had gone through the best scientists that they could. And they realized, look, no one has any idea. Let's get this out of the box. Weirdo puts jet engines and Honda's.

Let's get some some straight look. There's a lot of very strange people out there that are incredibly intelligent that, you know, might not fit into your standard educational, you know, Bundall or category of research scientist or whatever.

You might just be a weirdo likes to shoot guns and make hydrogen powered Corvettes. Maybe that's the kind of guy that's going to see something that maybe other folks haven't seen yet. I think that's entirely possible. It's also possible that they used him to discredit the idea of crash retrievals forever. You know, let's bring this guy and show him some stuff. Let him spout it out, then we'll we'll cut his legs off. But the problem is, the reason why he spouted it out was, you know, it was so clear that they had nothing to do with that.

It was his wife having an affair and he had. Top secret clearance because he has top secret clearance. They're monitoring all his phone calls. They find out that the wife is Bang and her flight instructor. And so they say, Liz, this guy's going to be unstable. We can't have him work there anymore. They suspend his working privileges and he freaks out. And then he takes people to see the craft, the launch sites. He takes a look.

They do this at a certain time period. Every week I'm gonna take you down there. He takes his friends down there. They get busted. They get arrested.

It's just to the actual verifiable facts of his being caught. The whole phone call thing, the fact his wife was having the affair. There's no way they're playing that kind of for DHS. Is the fucking government there, dude, goofy?

If I found out that Bob Izat was lying to the world, I would be the first person to tell you. There's no reason I wouldn't. That was the whole reason I got into it. That's why I contacted George back in the day. I wanted to know if he was fucking making it up with Bob and I out a test you for whatever you value my opinion at. I have been with Bob in his life. Met everybody, his family.

The closer you get to his inner circle, the more you understand that he's telling the truth. And never once have I found something where I'm like, you're a fucking liar. Never once.

Yes. It's a weird thing. Like the only thing that people kept point to in the podcast is that he was getting migraines. But my he had migraines, migraines earlier that day. I mean, it wasn't any you could tell he would stop and he had winds. And, you know, he just didn't like the idea that he's going to do this thing, that he knew that millions and millions of people gonna see him talk about this for hours and hours.

And he knew it was all going to come back up again. All the investigation, all the people fucking with him, all the attention that he had avoided. Another important point is this is not a guy who profited off of this story. No, this guy told his story for 31 years and didn't profit off of it.

The migrant might have been McDonald's. His wife was furious at me because when I brought him over, I. I could just get some in your stomach manic. So I think it was bad food, but it could have been that end the pressure.

But the pressure and the pressure was DNA was you know, he didn't know you. He didn't know if, you know, you're just going to, you know, start asking him about, you know, his wife cheating on him. And, you know, it's like it's stressful, man.

Oh, listen, I get it, man. I mean, that was one of the good reasons why we had dinner the night before with my buddy Andrew Schultz. And I brought Andrew along, too, because he's a really smart guy. And it's just just please just pay attention, this motherfucker. Tell me what you see does if you see some bullshit, you see some weirdness. Let me know what you say. Nothing. He's a I don't know what that guy's telling the truth.

That is fucking crazy.

You know, Andrew's a comic, but a really good one and a really smart guy. So his I just want to, you know, again, outside the box have some guy was not obsessed with UFOs at all.

Have him come and you know, and Andrew asked a bunch of questions and he was at the bar before when Bob and I arrive, we go to the bar. I didn't know who Andrew was. Right. And then Joe walks in. Hey, Andrew. And he had been sitting right next to so as Joe was putting spies out, that was a good move. But, you know, it's so frustrating.

It's fun. And I think I would stop at George been doing this 30 years. It's like you always get one step forward. And look, we all want to know if this stuff is true, but the weight of the evidence is so heavy now with the government programs and everything that you've been involved with. It's just an exciting time. And I think I learned more in this last year than all the time before. And I think that that's going to continue.

I don't think we're all of a sudden going to say, OK, this doesn't matter anymore if this is real.

Yeah, I'm not counting on any answers anytime soon. We may know more about what the government knows, but that's not the ultimate answer. I mean, what if it turns out? These are not aliens. They live here. There's some other intelligence that we can't see. They can reach in like rats in a l'eau, in a cage and poke. Pull us out once in a while or do experiments to us. And it's their planet. And we're living in this tiny slice of reality and don't realize what's going on around us.

There's a UFO - UFO? There's a UFC fighter, a woman named Angela Hill. She's a bad-ass. And her grandfather is Barney Hill.

Oh, shit.

Oh, shit. And I didn't know until after the podcast - her and I did a podcast together just talking about her fighting career. And then at the end of it, she goes, oh, there's one thing I forgot to bring up. This is like after the show is over. I'm like, what? How did you forget to bring that up? That is so crazy.

Her grandfather is one of the most important characters in the history of UFO abduction, Betty and Barney Hill, who were a couple in - New Hampshire?

Yes.

Maine? Or New Hampshire? And they get abducted, then through hypnotic regression tell this crazy story of... They lost time. Their car stops. These this UFO shows up. And then they have this classic abduction story that we have heard time and time again. And I had this conversation with someone where they were saying, do you believe in these UFO abductions?

And I said, I don't. I don't believe in them, but I don't not believe in them either. I don't. I just keep a blank slate with this because... And their take was like, wouldn't you think more people would talk about it more though?

Why would they do it that often? I go, how many unique occurrences would have to take place before it be common knowledge? How many times would people have to be abducted before you would believe? And what would they get out of these abductions? And look, we know what we're willing to do with chimpanzees or gorillas or any other primate orangutans that we find the wild. They run experiments on them. They capture them. They do things to them all the time. Why wouldn't something that's infinitely more intelligent than us abduct these two folks that are driving somewhere, Betty and Barney Hill? Why wouldn't they? You know, why wouldn't they experiment on them? There they are right there.

These are people that don't want attention. I mean, it's a interracial couple back in the 50s or 60s?

Right. It was probably in a lot of parts...I mean, it wasn't until I found out until 1967 or 68, like while I was alive, that interracial couples were allowed to marry in the entire country. So, Betty and Barney Hill, it's kind of funny when I'm looking at Barney. He does kind of look like Angela.

Oh, you see that genetic...

I don't know. Maybe I'm just looking...

Have you seen the new Unsolved Mysteries one on abductions, the new Unsolved Mysteries reboot?

No.

Oh, dude. Great case. Yes.

The other case that fascinates me besides this one. But that one surely fascinates me because it's the original. But Travis Walton.

Yeah. Yes.

Yeah. That's a weird one, man.

It's a it's a solid one, too. I mean, I've met Travis a few times and his story, like Lazar's, does not change. There are additional witnesses. What he went through is comparable to Bob. I mean, he was called a liar. And basically I think his friends were accused of murdering him. And that's a solid case, I mean...

It's a it's a really weird one, too.

Another great case. So, I met two of the girls, Salma and Lisel, and you remember that school were like 80 kids or something? I might get some parts wrong. Eighty kids saw these craft come down. And the BBC came the next day with Dr. John Mack, head of Harvard Psychiatry.

And he's the one who wrote that book, Abduction, which I read.

Yeah, this is what got him, like. So these kids see this craft come down in South Africa and at the Ariel school. And I actually got to spend a weekend with two of the primary witnesses, one that was three feet away from - she's telling me there was a being there. When you hear what happened to them... Now, the BBC did film that the next day. You did have Dr. John Mack going in and testing all the kids and trying to seek consensus on what they saw. But when I met these two women later in life, I can't dismiss what they're telling me. It's like you telling me you went to the grocery store. Why am I going to doubt you, man? That's how matter-of-fact they are about it. They don't know what they saw, but they know - they know exactly what they saw. They just don't know the implications of it.

Well, John Mack experienced a lot of blowback from that book.

Oh, yeah.

You're talking about a guy who's - was he employed at Harvard at the time?

He's head of Harvard psychiatry. Yeah.

And so he writes this book about UFO abductions. And I actually found out about it from my friend Maura, who worked with me on Newsradio with Dave Foley. She actually was reading the book. She's like, this is right up your alley. She goes, It's so crazy. Like, I didn't know what to think. Somebody recommended it. But along the way, she's like, these stories are so similar. It's crazy. Like there's all these different people that don't know each other from all over the world that have really similar stories, like if this thing is happening, again how would anyone know and how many times would they have to do it? And why would it be common knowledge? Like if if they have the ability to come here from another galaxy or another solar system and they can penetrate our defenses and hover over a place and abduct someone and run experiments on them and put them back there with some sort of a distorted memory, which it seems to be part of the story, and many of them that their memory is at least partially wiped. And they come back very confused. Like, how many of those would take place before we would all know about it? I mean, you wouldn't have to do it that often. There's 300 million people and they do it once a week. Who the fuck is going to know? Like, how are you going to hear about it?

What's the, what's proof? What is the level of proof for those cases? This phenomena is elusive. It wants to show us glimpses of itself and glimpses of other realities. But it doesn't want us to be able to prove it. It's as if it's trying to tell us. It's like a learning curve.

You know, that reality isn't what it used to be, that it's way more complicated than you might think it is. That's sort of like what we got out of the ranch, that it's putting all these different weird phenomena together when you can't really prove any of them. It's trying to tell you something. So what can you learn from it?

What's your take on Whitley Strieber?

It's it's a mix. I think he's a brilliant guy, and I think he did have some experiences. I don't know that the experiences continued. You know, you get mixed signals from him. The fact that he is a great novelist, a horror novelist -

Complicates it.

Complicates it.

He, he thinks about this stuff on a different level. You know, it used to be that we all thought it saw that alien on the cover of his book Communion and and figured it was a space alien from some other planet and that he's on a whole different level about what they might be now.

What does he think they are?

And in essence, gods. I mean, Jacques Valle had said, if you can manipulate space/time, if you can create your own gravity, like the craft that Bob was talking about, you could be from other planets. Other solar systems. Other times. You could be time travelers. You could be from other dimensions, or all of the above. Like Dr. John Mack had suggested that abductions and these strange experiences in connection with them suggest that we're part of a galactic neighborhood, a cosmic neighborhood, multidimensional reality that we haven't got our heads around yet, and that it's important for our ultimate survival that we figure it out.

George is right. I just you know, George, George has been. Remember, he is a journalist that broke mob stories, corruption stories, political corruption. I mean, just last year. I mean, this guy's been doing this for 30 something years. UFO has defined him because the world at large has defined him by the UFO. That's because of the stigma. Now, of course, he's made lots of headway. And not only does the coast show like our bell, but what he's doing now is kind of cool.

After 30 years of studying this and filming with people on news, you get to drop. Twelve seconds, one minute and a news report. He has a Akashic record of everybody ever involved with claims about this stuff. Throughout the last 30 years. And he's been dumping it all online. So all of his collective wisdom over the years of what could this fucking be? He is now starting to release those archives. And so this is for me, it's a very exciting time because like the Lozar interviews, there's so much more out there now that he had under his station.

What do you keep that George called mystery wire dot.com? It's a I work for Caylee. I I'm still part of the team. But since the beginning of the year, I'm focusing most of our attention on that, producing new content. But all the stuff that I've stashed at home and elsewhere is going up on there. Dr. John Mack will be on there eventually, because I got to interview him, too, while he was still alive.

And he was hit by a car.

What is this? Jim, it was a new Area 51 photographs taken by Private Pyle.

Oh, that was pretty cool. Yeah. They flew over papoose, like, you know, it's like you're allowed to do. Now you can get you can get clearance to get by it and have a really good camera. But here's what's so funny. It's like people that aren't convinced will never be convinced. They said, oh, there's new photos of Papoose Lake and we don't see an installation. And I'm like, oh, you don't see an installation that was built to not be seen from the air.

OK. I mean, it's if people don't want to, you know, follow this shit or understand that they're always going to see whatever they want to see. They follow me. Yeah, OK.

I was it back. You looked at me blankly. I was like, well, you having an argument with someone is not there. Oh, OK. You like arguments. You so you're not seeing. Oh yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. My point is this is just I'm, I can't banging my head against the wall because I don't know what the real truth is.

George, is it was it a struggle to talk about UFOs and yet maintain a serious career as an investigative journalist? Very much so. You know, I thought I had the support of my news director and the station at the time. And, you know, they were encouraged by the reaction from our audience. It was it was big and then it expanded and went all over the world. But I think they worried that I was going too far down the rabbit hole.

So I had to be careful. I mean, for me, it is not my religion. I'm not chasing this because I've got a hole in my heart where God should be. It's a story. It's always been a story. And so I try to be careful and not commit to a position. It's space aliens. It's interdimensional, as I'm following what evidence there is. I'm listening to witness testimony and trying to figure it out. And and over the years, you know, I have been all over the world to chase this down.

In the end, lot of the answers are the best information was right in Las Vegas because of Bigelow and the organizations that he founded. All that expertise came right into my backyard. And Harry Reid being the sponsor to the program, that became a tip. I mean, I've been fortunate to be a fly on the wall and and to gain their trust in it. It's tricky. You know, it's tricky because so many people find this to be crazy and ridiculous.

And whenever I do a story on not related to UFOs, it's about some crooked politician or cops or something like that. And people are mad at me, which happens often. They bring up UFOs.

That's the UFO guy. How seriously do you get to it? But I've had the support of my employer and I'm thankful for that. And, you know, I get to be a little more creative on coast to coast because it's a four hour show and and you can let people go. I don't have to be judgmental about it when I'm reporting as a regular news story, you have to be more careful about what I include in it. But, yeah, we're putting all that stuff up and it's been a fun ride.

And there's a lot of times I've just want to walk away from it. Like you, I get disgusted by it. Yeah.

Have you have you noticed in your world, the world of investigative journalism, that attitudes and opinions have changed about UFOs?

Very much so. I think, you know, I go back to The New York Times story that changed so much. So I had no known that stuff. And when I found out they were going to do it, I had known about the program. It was under way. I said, hey, why do I get to do this? Because I've known about all this time. I kept quiet about it because that was my agreement. I'm going to do the story.

They said, no, this is Bigelow. Senator Reid and Tom DeLong had asked me, don't do that if you do it. The New York Times said they'll back out. And so I sort of don't want to say took one for the team, but I realized I'm not The New York Times. They were gently letting me know I'm the UFO reporter. If I do it, nobody is going to pay attention to it. If The New York Times does it, then everybody does pay attention to it.

And they did they did that story than The Washington Post and Politico. All the news networks did stories of press all over the world. It is now acceptable for reporters to dig into it. You have to be careful. There are still liars and scammers out there who will mislead you. But there is information that can be pursued by reporters. And I think that's made all the difference. It made Congress more comfortable with exploring it. And our world is different from that.

It was two and a half years ago.

I think the people that were in control of this stuff also in the 60s and 70s, they're not around anymore. So you're dealing with now people that are in government, involved in the military that grew up in the age of the Internet. And they have a different perspective about these subjects.

The free flow of information they see, everything is there. Why is this? Why is anything? I think younger people just have a different perception about UFOs in general. I mean, I think that you're you're not dealing with the post 1947 people that were, you know, talking about it back in the day, were they? And also the attitude of the way the military and the government interface with the public mean mean they they could come up with the most ridiculous deception, like the Roswell case is one of my favorite ones.

I used to have a a bit about it, about how crazy it is that they say they print printed in the paper.

We've recovered a downed saucer and then the next day, Zazzle, whether that's like you don't know the difference between a spacecraft from another dimension or another planet or a weather balloon that was made in Ohio.

Well, it's same question now. Dave Craver doesn't know the difference between a Tic TAC and this weird craft and a seagull or something.

You know, he won't engage those. Saying, you know, arguments, he just won't do it. He's a fighter. I didn't give a fuck. Well, it's the other thing that he was talking about that we didn't really get to is that that thing not only was recognizing that he was there, but it was jamming. It was doing some sort of act of jam, trying an act of war.

This is the other paper.

I want to tell you about it. It does mention aliens. So it's a it's it is a recalculation note.

If I'm in trouble for I'm not I know they're not classified. It says unclassified. Just doesn't generally run out of this room right now. It just recalculates how likely it is there are alien civilizations in our solar system or how likely. So it's about the Fermi paradox.

It's really Drake equation. Drake equation. So they have done this. And a year ago about they tried to figure out how many planets are out there, how many are inhabited. This is a reworking of their calculations. And again, I can't read it.

I think it's your intelligence reference document introduction to this statistical Drake equation. So this is something that they they created for the Defense Department. Yeah.

So they could get an understanding, you know what the baseline of our information is about all those different topics I told you about. And then this one is how likely is it that we have galactic neighbors and how close might they be? Yeah. And the key question, how far are they?

It comes to an answer. It's like 30 pages into that. But you're the first person outside the program. Wow. To see it. You better.

Sure. This is okay. Yeah. It sounds like I'm going to get visited there. Yeah. Well, how far do they think they are?

I hope they they get it for you. And again, I'm one of the reasons I become a journalist, so I don't have to do math.

So that's one of the cool things now that's happening is because of the New York Times article and really because, you know, you had Bob on and a favorite people are talking about this in the Zayat, guys. I've had more people, serious people come forward to me in the last year of my life than ever before. And it includes soccer moms and just people that just I want post the documentary.

Yes. Ever since the Lázaro documentary, you know, and people found out that I kept my word to Frager and didn't tell his story. New York Times told that I kept all that, you know, people started to trust me with, hey, we can keep his mouth shut if he needs to. People have come forward to me in droves since the Lazaar movie. And of course, it's like soccer moms and people to just say, I don't want to be known.

I just want somebody to hear this because my husband would think I'm crazy. Let me just tell you what happened. Me and I Mattila. And what are they telling you? I mean, Joe hits everything you can imagine from seeing craft that are right there, right in front of him to, you know, abduction stories, which I don't get into because it's too crazy for me. But the reporting sightings encounters all UFO stuff. That's why they call me.

They don't call me for other stuff. Right. But also very serious people, people that have worked or do work within our military and say, I had an encounter, there was an incursion. I know George dealt with this for 30 years. It's just it's just new for me that the the amount of people coming forward to me and telling me their stories and giving me documents and stuff like that, I'm going to be careful because a lot of it's got to be bullshit.

Right. But a good handful of it is power.

A lot of it is, you know, it's like bait to real to discredit discredit you. He says, oh, you think, oh, yeah, it's just crazy people. It's crazy people. And some of it might be more organized than that. The eRate your your show, Joe. Since when Bob is on there, I know what, what happened to Jeremy as a result of it. I get a little bit of the blowback because people are interested in the topic, but it's amazing how much of an impact it's had to kindle people's interest really in that story.

But in others on the general topic by way. This paper says, though, with a 75 percent probability, the nearest extraterrestrial civilization is located in between thirteen hundred sixty one and thirty nine hundred seventy nine light years from us.

So there there you go. Wow.

And the way they travel, that ain't shit. No. So. And that's lunchtime.

And that's such the important part of it. Remember, timeout non reactionary propulsion systems. Everybody like ten years ago, everybody's like, OK. The universe is vast, is probably an intelligent life, forms out in the solar in the solar systems in the universe. But they aren't coming here. Right. But then you look at what Bob said and how gravity wave amplification would. And then you look at the testimony of like commander favor and how those craft move.

You see how the Gimbel moves. And then you start thinking, well, distance doesn't matter anymore. That's just us saying physicists were right. Well, hold on. Physics has changed as our understanding has changed. So now we're looking at a propulsion system where distance doesn't matter, man. That brings us all much fucking closer together. If any of this is true.

Yeah. If any of this is true, this I mean, there was a lot of naysayers back in the day that were, quote unquote, UFO experts that had more traditional ideas of how they traveled there, like Stanton Friedman. He had his hot potato theory that they just did it in short bursts, like very fast travel and short bursts you could tolerate. But if they and he didn't believe in Bob are, too.

But I always felt like there was some weirdness there, like UFO guys. And researchers are so used to people being full of shit that everyone but them's full of shit. Right. And that's what I felt like with Stanton. Let's stand to discredit Bob's education pass and all these different things, I believe. Yeah. But I don't know. I don't think you know him. I don't think you talk to him. I don't think you get in the other.

You just just empty out. Empty out all your predisposed notions of who the guy is and look at it.

What if he's telling the truth? Like what if he's telling the truth? Does that place actually exist area? As for. Yes. Does he have some weird knowledge of it? Yes. Did he really work at Los Alamos lab? Yes. Did people who worked there remember him? Yes. Does he know how to navigate the building from the inside? Yes. Was there a fucking article in the newspaper where he built a fucking jet car and it said he was a physicist at Los Alamos lab?

Yes. These things are piling up. Stanton, I wish you were alive. I wish you were alive because he was a really smart guy and was also obsessed with UFOs. But again, these UFO experts all believe that everyone else is full of shit.

I had a 20 year dialogue with Stan Freedman and I respect the hell out of him because he really plodded away and really plowed the ground on the topic. And General tried to make it respectable, but he had a blind spot about Bob. We had multiple face to face conversations and exchanged letters over the years.

Did you ever say what if he was telling the truth?

Yeah, I have said that to him. And he can't get be hit beyond the college degree stuff. That's the stopping point for him.

And you bring up, like, I'm sure Bob told you the same story, told me about working at Los Alamos lab and his education, and I did, too.

I did not tell him that story, but it would not have mattered because Stan didn't hear any of that stuff. All the things about how does he go out and know it's going to fly on Wednesday night and take friends out there three weeks in a row and then record it on video. Right. Doesn't want to hear that. Why? Just just didn't hear it. Why not? It he made up his mind. That's not good.

I thought scientific and I can understand like I might. E-mails and correspondences and tax are a dump truck for conspiracy. Like every everybody thinks I'm some fuckin believer and they can just hit me with like fucking five G Cobbett stuff and I'm like, Jesus Christ. And I try to push that. So it's people that actually know me, my friends and George too. We're like the person that's hardest to convince that your story has validity. We ask for documents, for military background.

We we bet people. Right. He vetted Lasar. I vetted Lasar. It's not like we're in here. Oh, we want this to be true. Tell us your story.

But do you understand that's why the skinwalker rantz thing does nothing for me. I understand. I knew I'd tell them. Yeah. It's just I don't, I don't see anything there. Yeah I see a dead cow.

Yeah. There were PGD scientists on that ranch for 20 years, some part of the time working for the U.S. government, trying to figure it out. They would have experiences they can't Documentum they realize that nobody's gonna believe it. It was very frustrating. But they tried to look for a bigger picture of what it was trying to teach them. Why? Why is these performances? And that's how they could consider them like performances. They're not just UFO is popping in here just because it's a portal or something.

They were showing glimpses themselves for a reason, because if they didn't want us to see them, we wouldn't see them. It's like the Tic TAC, there's the Tic TAC sitting around. It's it's been there for a couple of weeks zipping in and out. We can't quite get a radar bearing on it. And it's sitting there waiting for Freyberg to come along and then it kind of reacts. Oh, is there somebody else here. And it zips away.

You know, it knew that we were there. Given its capabilities, it wanted to be seen.

But why that's the difficult thing is, is can you accept? So if this UFO thing is real and there are these intelligent craft stuff, can we accept that it is aware of us, that it is aware that we have cell phones, that it is aware that we want to monitor it and if it's highly advanced wherever it's from. I don't care if it's fucking aliens or the Kent North Korea. I don't care who it is. Right.

But if they're that advanced, if this technology if there's any weight to it, which there is. Then we have to know that they are aware of us looking at them and that they can work from a technologically more advanced standpoint. Right. I mean, I have to accept that skinwalker all that. It was hard for me when I when I started doing the film and worked with George on it is hard for me. Whereas the concrete evidence I see come out of favor, that's concrete damage.

The documents. That's what he first showed me. His documents. Documents. Great. That's hard evidence. So I know and it's hard to accept some of that, but I'm not going being excluded it like I didn't exclude Bob. I want to find out the truth. I'm not going to exclude it, investigate the unknown, don't you know?

So the you know, there might be some scary explanations ultimately that that they live here, that they can see us and read our thoughts and were in the shower and were sleeping. And they're watching and they manipulate us on a micro and macro scale that it's their planet, not ours, that we're an agricultural product. That's scary. The other thing that's scary is what if we are totally alone? You know that there were the only life in them in anywhere, that this the only inhabited planet.

Some people believe that. I don't. But that's pretty scary, too, because you look at how we take care of ourselves and stop. Very well, you know.

Yeah. It's the whole subject is such a weird one because you spend a lot of time on it and you start thinking. Am I just wasting my precious energy here on nonsense? Like.

But then you hear like one of things that Bob told me that was so strange was when we were doing the podcast, he was saying that they think that one of them was really old. It was from an archaeological dig.

And I was like, well, why do they leave and spacecrafts around? Are they leaving spacecrafts around? So I could let them figure this shit out.

Yes. Yes. You think that. I think so. That's amazing.

Said throw in the cell phone into the monkey cage here. Help yourself. Knock yourself out. And we see these displays. You know, if they didn't want us to see them, we wouldn't. They have stealth capability. We can see them right there and not see them on radar. We can see them on radar, but they're invisible.

You know, they you could only see them sometimes through through thermal. So as our military devices get better detection. UFO sightings are going up. And it's because we now can look at them purely through thermal heat signature compared to just, you know, fly.

Some of them don't display a thermal heat signature absent of some of them do and some of them don't, do they? They display different forms of propulsion.

I don't know. Don't know.

We'd have it's seen as extremely varied. You know, is that there's anything you can imagine. And more this cop just called me a month ago, and he's not a UFO guy anything. And he had an encounter, he claims, that was so extraordinarily strange, like non aerodynamic, something impossible. He saw something impossible. They come in all shapes and forms. It's just that as we look more, we're seeing more. I think our technology is increasing.

And maybe because our awareness also we're starting to be more curious, our government and our scientists.

I think the scientific community should engage this topic. You have stuff to study now. Michio Kaku famously recently said the burden of evidence about these not being extraterrestrial craft is now on the scientific community because there's such a weight of evidence now. That there are craft our governments working on it. The Russians are working on it. And the Chinese are working on it. Those that we know up for sure. That's been told to me directly. Senator Reid said that was one of the reasons he started the program, because he had indications that those other governments are trying to figure out the same stuff that we're figuring out.

And if some of us can master that technology, the Russians get it. Chinese get it.

Before we do, it's it's we're in trouble or the aliens come down and smack everybody around.

So what do you what do you what do you think, man? After kind of, you know, doing three rounds on the UFO stuff, you know? What do you think's up, man?

I don't. That's the problem. I don't I don't. I just sit back and I wait.

You know, I think when you look at Frager's favors, what would favor saw clearly there there's evidence there's there's not just evidence that it was jamming, tracking. There's them trying to figure out what it is. There's the incredible rate of travel where it can go from 60000 thousand feet to above the surface and like literally a second. And they don't even know how fast it really went because it takes a second for the radar to to register. That's that alone is just bonkers.

Like, what is that like? What is that and how do you dismiss that?

And no sonic booms as an example. So that would a trans medium craft is one that goes through space, air or sea, and it doesn't have the same displacement as you'd normally have. That would be a gravity propelled craft. No sonic booms, no splashes of water. Yeah. So it's I I'm just curious what where you know. Before you were you've been back and forth on the topic, you know, has George. So if I get so fed up with this, sometimes I'm never going to learn anything that was fucking crazy.

Well, there's just so many people out there that have an interest in discussing it, too. When they do these lectures, they tour and they do these UFO conferences and they just get together with other bullshit artists and they make a living. It does happen. And it's a part of the curriculum. It's part of the problem is that there's there's money to be made in this. And you realize that when you interview these so-called experts, you know, we sit down and talk to them.

A lot of them are just they're knuckleheads and they don't respond very well to scrutiny.

Luckily, he's a journalist, journalist with a day job. And, you know, I'm also I'm just a filmmaker, not just a UFO researcher, you know?

You're kind of obsessed with, oh, I'm going to be completely honest. I am I'm I'm not happy. How do you not be mean? It's the one of the most compelling subjects that the human race has ever known. Are we alone? Yeah. And if we're not alone, is is something as advanced to us as we are to ants, you know? And that is obviously there's. If you follow the string of evolution, things become more and more complex, and in the case of primates, it become more and more intelligent, more and more capable of manipulating their environment.

So if we extrapolate and we go a thousand years from now or we take ourselves to a totally different environment where you don't have the same sort of tooth and claw competition as you have here on Earth, I mean, maybe they exist in some sort of a planet with a completely different ecosphere, a completely different series of medals and and different propulsion systems get invented first long before fire. I mean, maybe they're just messing with some stuff. This is very different than us.

Maybe they live in a more stable environment where they don't have to worry about asteroid impacts and they've had a steady chain of evolution that's gone on for millions of years. I mean, we don't we really don't know.

Just think about a civilization that so much as a hundred years older than us. Right. Especially now. Look how far we've come in 50 years around this stuff. Fifty years ago, a cell phone might be considered witchcraft, you know, and the the rate of change is exponential. Something hundred years or a thousand years older than us could have technology. That's basically magic.

In a million years in terms of biological life on earth is really nothing. It's nothing. We haven't even been alive for a million years. Humans haven't been human for a million years. So just think what goes on a million years from now. The other thing that always trips me out is the archetypal alien.

When you look at it, it's like if you took cavemen or you go back to chimps and cavemen and then humans, you're seeing this pattern of their heads are getting bigger.

The muscles are getting smaller, the body's getting less hairy. Well, if you keep going, what do you get? You get an even bigger head and muscles that are almost nonexistent. These like look stick bodies.

But they still maintain that sort of iconic primate shape. They're kind of primate like where they walk on two legs. They have two arms. They vary the amount of digits they have on their fingers. They have heads that have predators eyes because the eyes face forward like ours. Like, are we looking at what always happens to life? I mean, if if life exists the way it exists here and that it always gets to some point where some really intelligent species starts to manipulate its environment, and then it starts to look like that where they develop technology, where they don't need brute force anymore.

So their bodies slowly but surely shrink and become something that's just not reliant on a muscle strength, but rather on telekinetic ability, the ability to express themselves without words and thoughts. And that's one of the things that Elan said when he was talking about his neural link, which is, you know, if you want. If there's a fucking alien on Earth, it's that guy, right? You go.

And he's talking about putting some sort of a device into people's skulls where wires will go to different parts of your brain and you'll be able to greatly improve your ability to access information.

It will increase your bandwidth of information substantially. And in his words, you'll be able to talk without using words. You know, when you look at aliens, the iconic alien has a slit for a mouth.

Very little nose. Giant eyes and an enormous head. Well, if we allow ourselves to become some hybrid or some symbiotic computer cyborg type thing, isn't that what we're gonna look like? Aren't we gonna let me. Maybe those things have weird skin because we realize, like, you know, regular skin kind of sucks. It gets zits. You get cancer. You know, it's penetrable. They've already figured out a way to make some sort of a hybrid of spider silk and human skin.

That would be bullet proof. I mean, this is something that they've they've done research on in the lab. I mean, whether or not it actually gets to a human body, you know, who knows?

But when you look at those things, when you think of that iconic alien shape, it does remind us in awe. It reminds us of the process of evolution.

It looks like what we could be like.

It causes a lot of people to wonder if they are time travelers. Yeah. That's us in the future. Coming back to see when we screwed up planet Earth or something like that.

We could be or it just could be their their their life that's gone further than where we are.

And they know the process and that's how they were able to confidently manipulate our genetics. They're like, well, they're gonna get there anyway. I'll just step in and jack up the process. Maybe we don't have a million years, maybe because of where we live in terms of our galaxy. I mean, this is a legitimate shooting gallery. There's like some stupid number, like nine hundred thousand near Earth objects that could end us there in.

The miracle Growbag heard Mitt Romney go to try. Maybe they're looking at this and like, hey, we've got to give these people steroids. I did not grow in quick enough.

Like, let's get in there and get it so that they can legitimately get to a point before they get hit. And we've been hit many times while we were, you know, going through this process.

But get to a point where we can accelerate their their evolution. I mean, I don't know. I mean, it sounds crazy, but so do we. Bullets sound crazy, you know, car sound crazy.

Electric car sound crazy or it's OK to talk about crazy things, right? I mean, we can be sure it's.

Couple hours ago, NASA made an announcement that they thought they had found evidence of or indications of a parallel universe. And I know if you saw that article or not, but they thought that I don't know if they're theorizing that time. Operated in the opposite direction and that parallel universe. Now get your head around that one.

Can't Benjamin Buttons go back in time? You've been watching Baby Dark. That's a great show on Netflix, though, is it?

I saw the ad, the the image for it when I'm scrolling you straight up.

It's like in a different language, but they translate to the lips, move a little differently. But man, it is deep. You have to have like take notes as you watch. It's about the Mobius loop of time with ultimate dimensions. Blew me the fuck away. It's great. It's great.

Yeah, it is the ultimate. Who knows. Question. But God damn, I wish more people from as far would come forth. If Bob really did work with all those people and they really were brief. The same way he was, if we could get more of those people to talk. That would be utterly fascinating.

Well, your show has a big reach.

So maybe this time somebody will hear straight out vote for anybody ever reach out to you that claim to also have work with Bob at us for a bunch.

Yeah. And to verify any, you know, you know, they could not be verified.

And in fact, I think they were lying to me and bodysuits people down all the time. So this guy is fucking standing on UFO stage line bullshit. I mean, you know, so no, he hasn't even he was hoping one other and play what. However, I have had people that work at Area 51 confirm parts of Bob story. One in particular saw him coming off the jet where he says he saw him coming off the Jannik flights. I said, will you go on record with me that you met Bob there on the tarmac?

No. Why? Everything we did there was confidential. We couldn't even tell our wives. Why would I go on record with you?

And if he did go on record, you'd probably get harassed or arrested or he can't even tell you what he ate for lunch out there.

You know that. So. And one of the guys is real excited to talk with. Just recently passed away. He actually started the bar that was at Area 51. So everybody told the bartender stuff. He started as a flower fund because no one would send flowers to wives when people died out there.

But my point is, people have come forward to George. To me, a lot of people are lying, but it adds up over time.

And I got more than two dozen people who have come to me with bits and pieces of the story who had worked out at Area 51 that I confirm who were out there, security people who had seen a disk under a tarp in a in a hangar.

Different people that work there at different times, 50s, 60s, 70s and 80s, who had little pieces of the story not to confirm Bob. And then there was one that I pursued. I don't know if you want to keep going on this, but I pursued this guy I was trying to find in the early 90s, people who were in a position to know about what goes on out there. And I found one. And he had he'd been active in the nuclear weapons program.

He had worked for e.g. Angi. He had easy G had the contract to manage Area 51 from the beginning, all the way through the first thirty or forty years of it. And so I started basically stalking the guy. One of his sons was a state senator. And he had told me he confided to me that you got to ask my dad about UFOs and aliens. And another son had been FBI agent. So I stalk the guy introduced myself.

There were a couple of public events where I would just show up and he finally got competent enough in me to invite me to his home. And he start gets out these scrapbooks and he showed me these stories and clippings and photos from the nuclear weapons program. And I'm watching and taking notes and stuff. And suddenly he closes the book and he goes, You're not here to talk about this nuclear weapons, are you? I said, no, not really.

And his wife walks in and she says, Oh, you're not going to tell him that stuff. Yeah. And then he started telling me then over the course of two years, I would meet with him, have a cup of coffee somewhere. I couldn't take notes. I couldn't record anything. But he told me the story. Now, this guy actually is someone that you've had reference to on your show. Remember any Jakobsen or book about grief?

Yeah, well, it's the same guy, but the story they told me was different than what he told her. He said that they eventually told me that they had a live alien out there, that I could not go public with this until after he died, that they said that they had craft, that it was a special spot originally was at Indian Springs, which is now Creech Air Force Base. And then it was moved Area 51 when 51 became active, and that it was a very small group that tried to analyze this stuff.

They didn't know where it was from. They didn't know how we obtained it. He said this thing was alive and well and that they eventually were able to communicate with us and told me that he was gonna make a videotape and he was going to make it available so that after he died, I could have it. Well, suddenly, two or three years later, it totally changes his story.

What had happened was there was a congressional investigator. His name was Richard D'Amato, and he worked for Senator Robert Byrd and he oversaw black budget projects. And he got onto this UFO story from Whitley Strieber and. So he was assigned find out what the deal is. So he went around the country, talked to different researchers and came to me and wanted to know about Area 51. And Lozar. So I told them a story and I told him about this guy and he got permission for this guy to violate his security oath and talk to him about it.

And they had multiple conversations and they went to the founders of GMG, the company, and. And it became a dead end. But after that congressional inquiry, this guy completely changed his tune. So he made up this story, which is the one that you heard from Annie Jacobsen, that what crashed at Roswell was a Russian technology Nazi technology flown by the Russians containing a little concentration camp victims who'd been experimented on by Dr. Mengele. Completely ridiculous story.

But I think he got scared. He was a real guy in a real position to know and had shared with his family some of this information. I think the story that he told me was legit. But if they made the tape, which I think he did, I didn't get it.

How much time has been wasted talking about bullshit in this subject? Oh, on centuries.

Centuries. That's part of the problem, isn't it? People just make shit. Yeah. And the more fanciful and ridiculous the bad, the better. Unfortunately, people pay more. Do you hear that and consume it?

I had an operation one time after the Lozar thing, somebody who was targeting me and he had other people helping him. That kinda convinced me that he had worked out there with live aliens. And I'm getting letters from his supposedly written by his neighbors. Hey, you got to check this guy out. Doctor, I'll just say X. He was taken away by armed security in the middle of the night. I think he has something to do with aliens and from out of the blue.

Then suddenly I am at a planetarium event and I'm going to speak about UFOs. Some event at this community college. And the guy shows up in a men's room. Hey, my name is Dr. X. Standing there at the urinal. You're not doing a story about me, are you?

So now who are you? What? This was a concerted effort to get me to believe that he had worked out there. It went on for a couple of years and of course, it was complete bullshit. When I finally did dig into his background, I was able to document where he had worked and what he'd been doing through most of his life. And it was just like a fantasy role playing thing. At least I hope it was.

So it's really hard to find a credible people. I'm super lucky to have Jared as a mentor because when I go latinum, I should be going right. He's like, I already gone, you know, left a decade ago. Idiot. You know. Check this out. So but I don't think a lot of people have somebody like George who can tell you what the bullshit is and prove it to you before you go down the wrong path. So you're right.

This field of research or whatever, it's filled with curiosity. That's the good thing. Human desire. Everybody everybody in the world has a UFO story. No, somebody else who does. So it's a common link between us all. But it is filled with charlatans, kooks, freaks and schizophrenic. Sure, you could say that. Mainly, it's filled with good intended people who are curious, too. But having people like George over thirty five years, you know, not making a major mistake.

Report the news, break stories open. I'm grateful for that because it makes my job a lot easier. I can filter the bullshit much faster. So I'd say, yes, it sucks. There's a lot of kooks and crazy people in this field. But mainly there's a lot of curious people who are good intended.

I'm encouraged by what's happened in the last couple years. I mean, not only the information coming out of the government because it's a little more solid than what you typically get from UFO people, but also by the new wave of people who are now interested because of your show, because of what's happened since The New York Times story. There's a whole new generation of people who are suddenly waking up and paying attention to it and are reading all the books and trying to figure this stuff out for themselves and also go into the process of said separating wheat from chaff.

I'm glad to see that there's a new energy in it. And ultimately, I hope that those folks, if not me, will be able to get some answers on this someday.

Well, as preposterous as we would like, if we want to sleep well at night, we'd like to pretend that it's impossible. It doesn't make any sense.

Just when you'd look up, you'd look up. You see infinity. You see hundreds of billions of stars just in this galaxy.

And this is one of hundreds of billions of galaxies. Of course, there's something out there. It's really just of course it's not. If it's not, do you think it's. Of course. Of course.

There's no fucking way. There's not. Whatever happened here that created us is likely to have happened in an infinite number of different forms all throughout the cosmos. The real question is, can they come here? And the real question is, if they have come here, what, where, where from and how and and how much how much interest do they have in us and how long they've been paying attention to us and how much of the ancient scriptures were really about that, like, you know, I mean, everybody's shit all over Zacharias citizens interpretations of the Sumerian text.

But what if he's right? Like, would have he's right. Would have the on anarchy really were creatures from another planet that came here and manipulated primate DNA to create people. And when you see those those ancient Sumerian, those clay tablets that were created where you see like a large godlike creature with a humanoid monkey creature with a tail sitting on its lap and its tiny thing and the image of the solar system with the correct amount of planets and the sun in the center and all even you realize this was made six thousand years ago.

What is that like? As much as people love to mock, you know, his his books. What is that like? What are what are these things? What is it?

I mean, obviously we lost some technologies because, I mean, I'm not an architect, but the stones that are pressed together, almost like they're molded all around the world in these like pyramid structures and. You know, it's my understanding that we we cannot create that now today at would as such perfection. That's incredible if that's true. Is there a technology that we have figured out and then lost and we're just in a cycle of that?

Or was there intervention that was most likely? There's been some catastrophes that set humanity back. There's a lot of evidence that points that. There's a lot of evidence that points to this period. I mean, in Graham Hancock and Randall Carlson have done an amazing job of illuminating that on this podcast. If you go back and listen to the those episodes, there's real physical evidence of asteroid impacts of meteorite meteors hitting Earth somewhere in the neighborhood of 12000 years ago.

And that is also when you go to this this period of construction, there's there's things that look like they could be older, that are built differently, particularly in Egypt, than a lot of other parts of the world. And then you find this layer of. It was a called trite night, Trenda night. What is the Triniti, Triniti, Triniti, this nuclear glass? Well, you find that stuff all over. When they do core samples and it's always around 12000 years.

And then the the almost instant changing of the ice age. The floods that followed, I mean, all the stuff that's detailed in the Bible like the floods and Noah, that coincides, they believe, with these impacts and that these impacts happened in a radically changed the climate. Killed an enormous amount of people. Probably set technology back thousands of years. And then we are the product of this sort of slow reboot.

Could there have been survivors that a small group of them that survived and now are more advanced than us? It's a breakaway civilization. Also an interesting question. A lot of people have explored. I don't know.

Yeah. Who knows? It's it's one of those, again, time-wasting, mother fuckers.

We just. Yeah. I should go down the rabbit hole to the end of time. You know, it's central human kind of questions. Where are we on the food chain? Why are we here? What what's the reason for this? Maybe.

And what is our reaction going to be if something visits?

I mean, if something does really hover over the with Trump wins the re-election and they're like enough in some gigantic, you know, city sized UFO hovers over the White House and we realize like, oh, OK.

I know people say we're ready. We want to know we're ready. We can handle it. Look at the handlin covert, you know, freaked out people are over there. We're not ready for anything.

Maybe if I saw that what you're describing, I mean, I'd love to see it a mothership. You know, if I ever saw something like that, like Val Kilmer in that movie, The Roller Rink, if I ever saw that, I'd probably just be like, cool job done. That was fun studying that.

You would. Oh, man. You'd be like, we got to get a camera crew out there on Netflix.

I guess he'd be driving there with your window rolled down. How do you want to see it, man?

Oh, honestly, I just I think it would freak me out where they think it's like, oh, shit. It's probably different seeing it than hearing all these stories from people, which I'm I'm open to. Everybody's contacting. That's fine. Yeah, but seeing it yourself. I yeah. I don't know how I would react, but maybe I'd just be like it would be like you're on drugs.

I think, I think you'd be like you're on psychedelic drugs. I think seeing it would would shift your perceptions so radically.

I bet your brain would overload. I bet it would be really hard to wrap your head around just seeing it.

Qualified reporters, you know, like policemen. This is one I keep bringing up this guy, man. His mind when he saw this impossible thing and I believe him, he he did see what he what he said. He tries to describe it in terms that make sense to him, but he struggles because it was so odd. The crowd was just so odd. So I don't know if you ever see one.

Let me know, though, because I'll let everybody know. Believe me, you would. Yeah, I would. Yeah. Yeah. I don't see shit.

I'm like the Inspector Crucell in my back and he'll probably see it before us. But maybe.

Well I would be really interesting. Like George, you been looking for a long time. We'd like to talk to you.

I've wondered, you know, what would happen if even less than aliens or whoever they are by if somebody were to say, all right, we're gonna show you, we're gonna open the hangar doors, you can go in and see the sport model that was are touched. Right. You can't ever report on it again.

Would you take that offer? Probably, yeah. I think I would, too. I shut my mouth. I just will not see it. I mean, selfishly and I'm admitting this because you're going to find out if I say no fuckers.

All right. If I say no, I tell everybody, well, then they're not going to show me anyway. And if I do show it and I tell him, then then I can tell people they're not going show me anything else.

Yeah, it's it's a hard one.

Oh. Do you have family members that you trust? You know, somebody that you trust that has reported something like that to you.

No, no, no. Not that I could think of. Not like a good friend.

I'm trying to remember no one. Nothing. Nothing.

Where, you know, there's there's things that people could get wrong right now. There's experimental aircrafts. Like I remember one first time I saw a stealth bomber was after September 11th. We were working out in Palmdale doing Fear Factor, and that's near Edwards Air Force Base. And I saw one of those things fly by. I was like, holy shit, it's the fucking it's the j'étais or something.

I mean, it just looked like it looked like storm troopers, like it didn't look like something from this world.

When you see that. Have you seen a shuttle flight? It's crazy, man. You look at one of the things like, that's a UFO.

Like, I felt like we were in some sort of strange movie, a Star Wars movie. It was wild scene, that thing fly across the skyline like, wow. But I knew what it was.

You know, I think if I really saw an actual UFO, I bet I bet your brain would play all kinds of trick. Sonja, in terms of perception and trying to interpret it especially, there's a very quick thing.

It was like, sure, you would roll that through your memory, your member would fuck with you all kinds of different ways. You would have all kinds of weird, distorted ideas of what you saw and how you saw it. What it exactly looked like would be so hard to get a super accurate like recall a ball memory of what that thing is, some of the most interesting UFO cases or were high strangeness as mixed in.

So it's not only seeing the craft, but then a lot of really weird peripheral stuff like your on mushrooms or goblins, like in a shooting gallery, the Hopkinsville case or, you know, other kinds of strange creatures and phenomena. Maybe it comes with the territory.

Here's what I noticed. Somebody called me and they said, I don't want to be known. I just want to tell somebody, oh, you're seem accessible. Let me tell you my story. Don't report. Okay, cool. Got it. They'll tell me they saw a UFO like a disk or something big. Not like a ball of light. Something big. And I'll be like, okay, cool. Is that it? Is that where your story ends?

And almost every time there's something much more personal, much more strange that occurred almost every time. So you have to imagine people are okay with reporting UFOs to you or whatever they can say. I saw, but I think UFO. But a lot of people aren't telling the full story until you really dig and find out because it makes them uncomfortable. Time, distortions, creatures, beings. So I don't know that if any of that's true, you know, if these if these experiences go beyond the hardware of the saucers, this sort of thing, then it gets more complicated.

And on that note, gentlemen, we've passed the three hour mark. Believe it. Thanks for having me, Joe.

My pleasure. Thank you for everything you've done over all the years. You've made a gigantic impact on on me and my perceptions of this whole phenomenon and I think in the UFO community at large. And thank you also, Jeremy, for your documentaries, which brought me around. Thanks, Joe. That's awesome, man. Thank you. All right.

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