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My guest today is a columnists, a podcast or a reasonable conservative person and a very intelligent.


Gentlemen, please welcome the great and powerful Ben Shapiro, the Joe Rogan Experience, trained by Joe Rapkin podcast by. Hey, how's it going, dude? We're here. We did it. We did. Both laugh First of all, congratulations on your thinness. Thank you. Slender and healthy.


You look good. Thank you. I appreciate it. Turns out running away from my children for four straight. We'll do that, too. I literally took up running just to get away from my really old drink.


Just go outside just for some mindspace.


L.A., man, you can't get outside unless you're actively exercising. Are they coming to rescue? Oh, I could alluded to fuck a lot footlocker. Right then. Then they would be OK.


Do you run with a mask on. No. Does anybody yell at you. No. No. What do you what do you do to attract like what do you do? No, I literally just run around on the streets hoping that one day I'll be hunted down by the rider.


So I have to go deal with my children screaming at me. But, yeah, that's that's the that's the goal.


Did you try to get healthier when Kovac hit? Like, were you worried and a little bit better looking back of it? It was just I was eating out too much and then I was relegated to home is like I had to learn how to use the barbecue. Like I'd never learned how to use a barbecue, actually. And then it turned out it was actually not that hard. So I was doing for years.


I'm gonna give you some alchemy. Are you barbecuing right now? I am still doing it. Yeah. I'll give you some elk sausages. Verhoeven's enough to do kosher. Right. So I have to. Oh that's. I collect it all. Oh I have to go get the alchin. I'll have to actually like kill myself.


Is that we're gonna have to do you'd have to get the elk and then you'd have to slice his throat or something like that. Yeah. It's content tent. What's the logic behind that.


So I mean not read you fast into the biblical stuff, but the original logic was that you were supposed to kill the animal in the most humane way was the idea. Now, do I know if it's the most humane way now? I have no idea.


It's most certainly not OK, because you have to slice it up with the rabbi's man. Adeno.


Yeah, I get it. How? Back in the day, a very sharp knife going through the throat would have been the most humane way because it's almost painless. And then the blood just sort of pours out. And that's a wrap.


Right. You don't want the blood anyway because you know a lot of blood in Judaism, so. Oh, really? Yeah. So what you do when you have a medium rare steak, many at the salt, the steak really heavily is why do it this why kosher meat pretty salty.


So if you go to a steak house, you'll have to go to a steak house, kosher steak house there, a kosher steak.


And you're so deep in that event. But you're a logical, intelligent guy. Does part down now and then like, hey, juxtapose that. But it does every now and then it fuck with your head you like.


What is this?


I mean, of course, I don't know. There's a religious person alive. I mean, who doesn't eventually go like, OK.


Weird. But all right. Yeah. Racist system.


But you feel like for tradition and for just the whole Jewish culture it's worth doing.


Yeah, exactly. I mean, you you you live the lifestyle and you feel like, you know, that big a sacrifice to eat at particular restaurants. The restaurants are still good. So that good kosher restaurants.


One thing that we're seeing with society and culture in general and one thing that sort of does support the idea of maintaining these sort of rigid disciplines is that when things start to slide just a little, you lose like a little these little incremental steps.


They slide and people go, oh, God, what's the big deal? What do you care?


And you're like, I see where this is going. Like I said, this is it's going down that way. This is not going to stop its sliding.


Oh, yeah. And you suddenly end. Yeah. I live in L.A. my whole life. And the the move from L.A. being a pretty safe, fairly nice city, suburban in orientation to just overrun with with horror shows is really is a lot faster. And I thought it would be. But it it's sort of great. You're right. It's gradual decline and then it's just off a cliff.


Well, you started to see tents and you didn't see him at all for decades. And then all of a sudden I started seeing tents.


I remember I was doing Fear Factor in Skid Row in the early 2000s. We had film down there and I'd be like, this is crazy. Like, has anybody seen this? Does anybody know this? Because there was these homeless streets like you have go down these gigantic in downtown L.A., back down for people don't live in L.A. You think, oh, downtowns like downtown New York or downtown Cleveland? No, downtown L.A. was a no man's land.


Nothing's going on in downtown L.A.. It is. Now, there's. Well, it was pretty cold. It was like there was some bars and there was some really cool upscale apartment buildings, those kind of picking up. But I took my family there before Cauvin, like four months before COGAT or so we went to we were gonna go to there's a famous doughnut place there. So we said just the one. It was goofy Sunday. Things like what you guys want to do today.


Let's go get donuts. So we went to downtown L.A..


Holy shit. Oh, you literally shit human shit on the streets. Everything smelled like piss bums everywhere. And I'm like, okay, stay close to me. Stay over here. If anybody comes near you, move or move closer to me like Jesus Christ. Like this is gonna don't want him to be freaked out. But I'm like, this is not.


Well, the thing is that that sort of disaster area stuff in L.A. was sort of localized. Right. You really like I worked in the L.A. D.a.'s office for a summer when I was when I was in law school. It's been like 2007 says a while ago. And I remember they had giant tent city and had to walk from. Car, they made you park a mile away and walk it, and so you're walking through Skid Row and is like, OK, well, this is really terrible and honestly, I feel bad for these people cause I don't think the best solution for people who are drug addicted or mentally ill is to live on the street.


And a heavy percentage of people who are homeless are drug addicted or mentally ill. But, you know, is it fair for people who are living in the suburbs like this is at least localized? It's not like reaching into your life. And then over the past 13 years, like I live in a pretty decent suburban area, I'm seeing like open needles on the street and one at my house. One day there's that guy line face down in the gutter like Edgar Allan Poe.


And I thought, well, this is this is falling apart rather quickly.


What do you think caused the slide or the expansion of the slide? Because I agree with you that it was very it was very isolated. Skid Row was very isolated.


Downtown L.A. was very I remember one time we were filming in downtown L.A. and we were on a gurney or just as what you call one of those things, call we where it lifts up.


Oh, anyway, we're filming some fear factor stunt. And as we got up, we could see people smoking crack. And I go, look, there's people smoking crack right there.


And the guests on the show, like a lot of them, they fly from all over the country and they like, is that real? They're really smoking crack going, that's crack. That's a homeless person smoking crack. Welcome to L.A.. But I didn't feel bad about I felt like, look, that's unfortunate.


But this is not like indicative of all of L.A. We're just in a shitty spot because it's really cheap to film here. Right. Here you go.


You got a little gift. Get to see some weird shit why you're here.


But I didn't I didn't think it was ever going to get to the point where you're on like Winnetka off the one to one up and there's 80 fucking tents and they put a porta potty there.


They put a porta potty, which was you real building and real development here in Los Angeles, not apartment buildings. We got some porta potties. You put every underpass, she'll have a porta potty.


Thanks to Mayor Eric Garcetti, you pay attention to politics far more than I do. And and law enforcement know that. What happened? How did he get to this on this particular problem?


This actually start with a bunch of lawsuits. So the LAPD used to have the authority to move people shit if it was on the sidewalk or if you had a bunch of stuff that was on the sidewalk and they're just camping out there. The LAPD could come. They could take their stuff away and they could rouse them or they could arrest them for trespass or for loitering. And then the ACLU actually sued and they said that this is a violation of people's personal property.


Oh, and the courts will you do such good work sometimes? And the court ruled that you actually are not allowed to move people's stuff, that that's actually personal property, even in a public area. And then they got a ruling from a court that allowed to live in your car because for a while you weren't allowed to live your car. And then it was you're allowed to live in your car. So now you're basically allowed to leave your stuff on the sidewalk and the police are not allowed to move it and you're allowed to live in your car.


And then there was this sort of equity movement that said, OK, well, things in business district, but why can't they do it in like more suburban areas? Why can't they just move into nicer areas? After all, there's misery should be equally spread across the city. And that's what you see. I mean, this is there's been so many breaking points over the last year in the city. And for me, for me, my wife and I, we looked at the rioting and they shut down the entire city at six p.m. It's a county of 12 million people.


And they shut down the entire county so that douchebags could run around shattering windows, pretending that they were standing up for social justice, then shut down Beverly Hills at 1:00 p.m. on Rodeo Drive at 1:00 p.m. so that people could run up and down Rodeo Drive. Talking about capitalism sucks while tweeting from their iPhone while stealing stealing Nike's.


You know, there was two moments where I was like, this is a real opportunity for us to come together. And one of them was the moment the lockdown happened. It it felt to me very similar to right after 9/11 where everybody was confronted with their own mortality, like, holy shit.


Like we we might be on the verge of a pandemic, like in a movie where a lot of the people we know die. And here we have to be kind to each other. We have to be know this is what's important. Family's important. And I remember thinking I've never been closer to my family, never been closer to my friends, were calling each other all the time. We were it was like it was there was there was real hope in that.


I was like, if we get through this, we're gonna be tighter. We're going to know what means something, what counts to fuck standup comedy. Fuck everything else, man. What what's important is love and friendship. Then it started to get angry. It only took like three or four weeks where people started getting like they were scared. So people started getting shittier with each other online. And then I basically swore off Twitter yells like, this is just too toxic and too hostile.


The second moment more. I thought we had the opportunity to come together. Was George flawed? So George Floyd died and all the sudden you have these Black Lives Matter protests. And I'm like, maybe we could finally make a dent on racism. Maybe we can finally make a dent in police brutality. Maybe this is a moment where we can come together and realize what's important is community solidarity, that we were all in this together like this is. And then the cops need to be reformed like they can't live like and maybe we should taking into account PTSD.


Maybe we should take. Count the fact that these fucking guys are pulling up on people every day that might shoot them in the face, they might never be able to see their family and their kids. Let's rework this. Let's think this shit through.


Yeah. No. Then chaos. And then all the sudden it became like what we saw yesterday where they're breaking in the Amazon. Go in Seattle. Like that fucking guy owns The Washington Post. He owns the most left wing newspaper in America. And he's like, not good enough.


Well, he's always had a buy, like a fake IDs, you know, sort of business. His house in Washington, D.C.. It's insane. It's just it's madness. He's too rich. I totally agree with you, by the way. Like when when the when covered happened, I thought, I can't really see how we're going to split in partisan fashion over this thing. Right. Like, everybody wants to live. And everybody would also like to eventually get back to regular life.


And the better we can live, the better we can get back to regular life. So it seems like, OK, we're onboard. When it came to the Lockdown's the original lockdown's, I was like, okay, I'm onboard. I know I'm taking this thing really seriously. I've got parents in their in their 60s. I feel like, you know, I'm in good health and I'm fairly young. I'm thirty six. But for my parents and I want my parents getting this thing.


And so we're still taking this thing real seriously and I'm still learning masc around to public places and I think people should. I think that's a responsible thing to do. But it it immediately turned into who can we blame for this, who can we blame, who's doing it wrong? And it seems like there were only like a couple of things that you really can do that are obviously wrong. Nobody has a good solution on this thing. Okay. Ravaged Italy.


It ravaged Spain. It ravaged New York. Like, there are a couple of things you shouldn't do. Don't take the olds and send it back into the nursing homes. It's covered. I mean, it's like an obvious one. But beyond that, like just staying away from each other and socially distancing where I'm like this is all kind of commonsensical stuff that people have known since the flu pandemic event 1918. Like nothing nothing has really changed. And yet it immediately turned into who can we blame, who's who's to blame for all these dead people.


Maybe it's wrong to Santis or maybe it's Cuomo who who can we blame? So that was terrible. And then on the Floyd stuff, I had the same feelings like, I don't know, a single human being who watched that tape and didn't think, OK, that guy deserves to go to jail. Chavan right there, the officer in that case in the George Foyt didn't think that.


You know everyone I know everybody, every single person was like, yeah that's that's real bad. Like that's you know, cops like I know tons of cops and friends with tons of cops and not one of them was like, yeah, that's good police procedure. I'm glad he did that. No one thought that. And so when people like, OK, we're going to look at police brutality, maybe we'll take a look at qualified immunity, maybe we'll take a look at police unions and the kind of restrictive covenants that they have with the cities and and how we make sure that everybody knows who's the bad cops are.


They can't get hired at different places like all those are solutions. But they quickly turn from. Well, we do want to talk about solutions. Solutions are a bad idea. What we need to do is we need to shout about everything we can possibly imagine all at once. And, you know, instead, let's have a conversation about like, was George Washington a bad guy? Let's have a conversation instead about like just completely defunding the police, one of the like a responsible conversation about things that make sense.


Well, talk about like what? We just got rid of the police. How is that discussion?


That discussion went when people were really saying defund the police in my cooler heads will prevail. But they're going to realize and I think they're realizing it now.


New York City, I mean, New York City has had record crime record homicides.


Who would have thought who would've thought de Blasio is? I mean, I would have never I would have never imagined I would look at Carcetti and go, well, he's better.


I look at Gaza City and look at the plaza on my grass said I have moved my house for dinner. He's way better than we are. WIO is groundhog murderer.


So we heard he's so you can have protests, but only Black Lives Matter protests. That one. That was that was a solid. That was that may have been the moment when I realized that we were all left. That was the moment when, like when the middle of a global pandemic, that's hundreds of thousands of people dead and an entire swath of our media and healthy leads just decided randomly that if you're protesting against lockdown, you're very bad. Right?


Then you're a racist and you're going to get people killed and you should wear a mask. And it's like, well, if I sort of agree with the mask thing, like, yeah, okay. And then you get millions of people in the streets yelling at each other and breathing on each other and spitting on each other. And you got health professionals on TV being like, well, racism is a public health threat. I guess that you can do that now.


It's like, well, what do I know? People who died in the hospital of Colbert and their family could not visit them. Know they literally died alone in the hospital of Cauvin and family could not visit them. And you're telling me that it's deeply important that we have, like, dance lines. This was stuff happening at rallies like dance lines in the streets in New York to fight racism. That's deeply important. But a daughter being able to visit her dad before he dies, that's not important.


Time of what bullshit I am for your freedom to protest.


I'm 100 percent for your freedom to protest. I'm also for your freedom to go to the gym. I'm also for your freedom to go to a comedy club. So choose. I'm for your freedom to go to a restaurant. Look, they've figured out how to do restaurants and a lot of places the servers wear masks and many of them wear face shields. You distance the tables apart from each other. You do temperature checks. You take people's names and addresses down when they enter.


So that if anybody gets sick, if there's any sort of and they they've been able to do this.


And this is right that the vectors of transmission are typically closed areas, people in solid proximity with each other for long periods of time.


Yes. The stuff where people are getting this stuff in, and I trust most Americans, not like some Americans, to be dumb asses. Some people are just dumb assholes. There's a lot of videos you can watch YouTube, plenty of Kerans out there.


How sad is it if your name is Karen and you're a good person. You're all the good tyrants out there. Heist.


I'm sorry, ladies.


I'm really sorry, but it's like this. It does. I made this point online. I got shellacked for it. But I was pointing out that most Americans are wearing masks right now. By polling data. Fifty nine percent of Americans say that they always wear a mask when they leave the house. And if you look at a map of mask wearing across the board in the places where there are the most cases, people are wearing masks. That's not I wasn't saying masks don't work.


I wear a mask. I think that the evidence shows that they do something. We don't know. They're not like full protective. They're the cloth masks are not as effective as surgical masks, which are not as effective as the ninety fives, but wear a mask. But the point that I was making is people are acting in fairly rational fashion, meaning if you think Colvert is like around you, you weren't a mask and your socially distancing. So this this idea that Gavin Newsom knows best how you ought to live your life.


I got some trouble with that, especially because California saw the same uptick as Texas and Florida and California never open. I mean, we've been here the whole time. California never really opened.


Well, we were doing pretty good up until the protests. Yeah, everything seemed like it was on an up to the Comedy Store was talking to them about becoming an essential business and opening up because they had open up bars and they had open up restaurants and they didn't really have a designation for comedy clubs. They sort of talked about it as a live performance venue. But then that puts comedy clubs at the same places, the Staples Center, which sounds crazy.


Right? Right. So, like, listen, we can do this. We can just have half capacity. Temperature checks do it right. They're doing it right in a lot of places all over the country. We can do this. The audience has to wear masks. This is totally doable. And so they were right about to do that. And then post this other thing is we were trying to figure out, like, is it protests only?


I think it's bars, too. Yeah. The thing about bars is close talk. People are allowed to rock. Yeah, they're drunk and they're on top of each other.


I think bars probably said, Jennifer, get uptight lot lots of singing, lots and lots of vocalizing churches and synagogues or main vector for this. I mean, but again, these are all things that are fairly commonsensical and we can agree on. And yet we're beating the hell out of each other over this stuff. And there's the suggestion we know what to do. If only we just did it, this would stop. It's not gonna stop, okay?


It's not gonna stop. It's it's a very transmissible disease. We don't have a vaccine as long as people are out there. It's going to continue to pass. Wear a mask if you're in close proximity with others. And that's pretty much it. The hospitals are getting better at this, thank God.


The yes, they are. And the crazy thing was that they were saying, like the you can only protest if it's a black protest. What about a protest for increasing your immunity? What about a protest for educating people to the techniques and the strategies for increasing your immune system? It is there are there out there. And there's no discussion about this amongst health professionals excuse me, amongst the politicians. If you listen to health professionals, people to really understand the human body, they'll tell you there's a lot of strategies, a lot of things you could do.


First of all, eliminate alcohol, eliminate caffeine, eliminate sugar, eliminate all the bullshit in your diet, start taking vitamin supplements, get outside, get some vitamin D, get get your body healthy exercise. Do do all these things and you will increase your immune system.


You increase your body's health. You don't hear a word that all of it is just stay inside lock. You know, we have to stay apart to keep everybody safe and cut.


The number one vector for transmission remains the home. Right. That's still the number vector in every society. Is the home people going home and giving it to each other. And when they remember four, for me, one of the breaking points in L.A. was was when they decided they were going to shut down all open areas. They're gonna shut down all the parks, they're gonna shut down all the beaches. And it's like, what is this?


Well, not only that, it goes against science because. Right. There's been papers that have been studies that show that this virus dies almost instantaneously when it's exposed to sunlight or even artificial sunlight.


Yeah. None of it makes any sense. But it does feel like bottom line, there are a bunch of gaps in American society. And then a bad thing happened and all everything just sort of fell apart. It is sort of like a house of cards. And then there's a little bit of weight put right on top and house of cards and everything just collapsed in on itself.


While people are panicking, you know, they're getting scared and then the economy's collapsing. So the economy collapsing at the same time as the George Floyd protests led people to start looting. And then people that didn't give a fuck about George Floyd or Black Lives Matter were just stealing shit.


And then this police was letting them steal shit. They were standing down in Beverly Hills and Santa Monica, literally two cops standing there.


And while people were saying to me, bashing, say, the media coverage of this stuff is just awful, the media, the media were cheering this stuff on and they were simultaneously making two arguments. They conflict with each other. One was these are mostly peaceful protests. First of all, mostly peaceful is the most. They say it's the loosest, most loosely defined, arbitrarily applied term in history. Well, if you go Jay Simpson was mostly peaceful that night.


O.J. Simpson was mostly peaceful that night for like an hour, 15. He was really not peaceful, but for the other hours between sunset and sunrise, he was unbelievably peaceful, like I've never heard this term before, where a protest turns into a vast riot. All of Melrose and everybody's like, well, it was mostly peaceful. What what is that? What is that room? So so habitants. How about you either say that the protesters and looters are two different groups of people and we treat them differently.


If your protesting, that's First Amendment activity. The minute you shatter a store, when do you go to jail, right? Yeah, that's the way they should run. Run or alternatively, if it's if you if you're saying they're the same group, then they need to be treated as lawbreakers. So I believe the first I believe you're a protester. You should be protesting. If you're a looter and a writer, then you should go to jail.


But the media refused to make that distinction and then they act like the cops are the bad guys when they come into it to arrest people who are violating license in Portland right now, they're trying to burn down the damn courthouse. Yeah, and the and the feds come in and start arresting people. And people like this, the Gestapo, it's like, OK, speaking as one of the tribe. Let me say, this is not like the Gestapo, OK?


Like the Gestapo is not famous for rolling up on people and then charging them. And then if they didn't have a charge releasing them, that wasn't like the Gestapo's thing. I'm sorry, but you decided that you want to throw a firebomb at that at the federal courthouse and your local mayor said he was going to let the police do anything. And so DHS came in and arrested Leo. Tough shit. I mean, I'm sorry. That's at some point somebody's got to restore some semblance of law and order here.


Well, it's it's a weird situation because I don't exactly understand why they're attacking the courthouse. I don't exactly understand why they're smashing the windows at Amazon. Go. There's Steve Martin right there.


They must hate these paint cans from the Gerrick. Right.


But it's it's. It went from this to the literally tear down the structure of society.


Well, this is what we get into sort of the deep philosophy point. And this is this is actually really the biggest problem right now. And the racism point is the shifting definition of racism. So I had the unfortunate experience of actually reading one of the best selling books in the country, Robbins', D'Angelo, White Fragility. And let me just tell you, a greater pile of horseshit has never been produced by a bevy of horses. It is an awful book and it is basically rooted in the same theory as Ibram CND, how to be an anti-racist.


The basic definition of racism changes in this theory. So racism, you know, we're sitting here discussing racism. And the way I define racism is probably similar. You define racism. You believe in the inferiority or superiority of a group based on race of an individual based on their membership in that group, too. Right. There'll be racism. I believe that you're inferior or your superior based on your race. End of story. Right. That's that's racism is.


So Robin D'Angelo and Eric Kendy redefined racism to mean any societal structure that results in a racial inequality is itself racist. So any structure that results in a not exact proportion between whites and blacks does not break the NBA race. Exactly. Exactly. The answer is kind of yes, except that the NBA is not racist because obviously it benefits black people. I mean, now it's not racist, except it's because the meritocracy is the reason the NBA is not racist.


But Robin D'Angelo and Kendy both suggest that meritocracy is an aspect of whiteness. They say that meritocracy and individual are aspects of whiteness because these institutions, things like meritocracy and individualism and not seeing people's colors. These just reinforce hierarchies that end with disparate outcomes. And so what they say is in order to be anti-racist, you have to want to tear down the entire system. They literally say this. I'm not I'm not really. I know that I'm not misidentifying the argument because, again, I've read their books.


The the basic notion that to be anti-racist, you have to tear down free markets or you have to tear down free speech or you have to. And what that means is, of course, that anytime there's rioting and looting, that's really just an expression of outrage at the broader American system. And so it justifies that sort of stuff. This way, it's unequal. Hannah Jones, the de facto editor of The New York Times 60 19 project lady, tweeting out that she appreciated that people were calling these the 16 19 riots.


Because once you say America is rooted in slavery and Rudan evil and a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad place, then robbing a shop is just the latest iteration of you fighting the system.


Explain the 16 19 correlation to people, if you will. Sure. So the 60 19 project is is something put forward by The New York Times. It's not good history there for Pulitzer Prize winning historians who said this is not good history. The basic argument is the United States was not founded in 1776 with the principles of the Declaration of Independence. The count in the country was actually founded in sixty nineteen with the importation of African slaves to American shores because that's in the first African slave arrives in the United States was sixteen nineteen.


So the idea is that the entire history of America is a history of a system that is endemically white supremacist and that all of the Declaration of Independence is basically a lie, that the principles of all men are created equal. That was a lie when it was written. And it's a lie now that the idea that we have rights that pre-exist government, that's a lie. All of these things are lies. The Constitution was built in order to enshrine white supremacy and no evolution has taken place.


So they don't that they essentially make the argument that from 16, 19 to 2020 is a continuum. Racism has gone underground a little bit, but it's still there and still it's still implicit in all of our systems. So the 60 19 project has essays blaming literally everything on racism. So disparities in maternal mortality between black women and white women, which, by the way, exist in Europe and in Canada. That's due to American racism. Traffic patterns in the United States is due to systematic American racism.


Every racial disparity is attributable to a system that was rooted in slavery. Now, the traditional notion of America is that America was founded in 1776 and that the story of America is that America did tolerate the great original sin of slavery up until the Civil War and tolerated Jim Crow up until the civil rights movement of the 1960s. And that is a great stain and a blot on America. But the story of America is trying to fulfill the promises of the Declaration of Independence over time, make those promises available to everybody.


And this isn't my argument is Martin Luther King Junior's argument when he talks on the march in Washington about fulfilling the promissory note of the Declaration of Independence. He says we're here to cash the check. Right. You issued us the check and then you didn't let black Americans be Americans. We're here to cash the check. Is the argument Frederick Douglass, the freed slave, makes in 1852, makes a famous speech before slavery is ended. He says July 4th doesn't mean anything to black Americans because we're not included in the bargain.


Include us in the bargain. The story of America is the Declaration of Independence, those principles that we should all basically still agree on because the pretty good principles. Free speech. Free assembly. All the things you see in the Constitution that those things brought about greater freedom and prosperity than anything else. And helped us overcome that sins that are present in all human societies and were present in the United States in extreme ways as well. But that's that's the counter negga, right.


The 60 19 project says that all that was basically nonsense and that America is just a history of whites keeping blacks down and that no progress has essentially been made if there is progress. It's mostly a lie. And so every disparity now can be attributed to historic disparities between white and black.


Is there middle ground?


So if we look at 1776 and we look at the Declaration of Independence and we look at America today in 2020, where there clearly is some impact and the echoes of slavery, and then after that, Jim Crow, there's clearly some impact in these deeply impoverished communities that don't seem to advance.


Yes. So to to make the argument about institutional racism there, there's a couple of ways you can read this. When people say systemic racism or institutional racism. I usually ask them to be a little more specific in what they mean, because there are a few ways you can read that. One is history has impact. Of course that's true. Right? That's true for everybody. That's true in your family history. But if you have a grandfather who went it, who went to prison on a particular charge that leads to poverty for your parents, which led to more poverty for you.


Right. People have histories. Those histories are embedded in their life experiences. And that's true for societies as well. All of that is for sure true. Then there's the question as to whether the institutions today are racist. And that's not quite the same thing. Right. Because history has consequences is not the same thing as saying the rules today are racist because the rules today are not racist. Actually, the rules today are quite not racist.


So but historically, it's fairly recent. If you go from the civil rights movement to 2020, we're really not talking about how much time was spent.


Three generations, 50 plus years, 60 years. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's adverted plus. Right. But in the world of, you know, in the past span of human history, it's not a small amount of time.


Right. So clearly there's some impact of both races. Absolutely. Jim Crow laws. So that that's where I'm saying there's a middle ground. Yes.


And it's indent. It is important for people on my side of the aisle, conservatives to acknowledge and recognize the importance of history in people's living situations now. And it's important for people on the other side of the aisle to at the same time, not attribute every single thing to history because.


But isn't there always something like that? There's always, like, extremes on each position. And the truth lies somewhere in the middle.


Yeah. But I don't think that it lies as far in in the dead center of that as people I think want it to. What I mean by that is the problems that have plagued communities in the United States, not just the black community in the United States, the problems of racism or problems of sexism, the way those get alleviated is people making better choices over time. That is the problem, that that's the way that those issues get alleviate. When Jews arrived in the United States and though in the early 20th century to talk of my people, when they when they came, they were impoverished, didn't speak the language.


They're banned from country clubs. There's open discrimination against them. They were banned from Harvard. Right. Harvard Law School had quotas on Jews.


The the way to fight against that is to make good decisions. And so the you fight against the system to make sure that the system has rules that apply equally to everyone. Right.


But you clearly see that there's a big difference between people coming over here willingly and doing so in order to better their lives versus someone whose ancestors were dragged over here to be sold as property.


Well, and then dealing with the repercussions of that being your family history and red line laws and all the other things that were put in place to sort of keep them in very specific areas, which to this day remain crime ridden, gang ridden, deeply impoverished communities.


Well, that's true. But the question is, how much of that is historic redlining and how much of that is an 18 year old kid today deciding to prep a gun and shoot somebody?


But how much of that 18 year old kid today deciding to pick up a gun and shoot somebody is based on him growing up in this fucked up environment where that's what he models, where everything around him is crime and gangs and you imitate your atmosphere, which would all humans do. Right.


But the answer is there's only one way to break that chain. What what ways? That way is to not pick up a gun and shoot somebody.


I think knowing that a simplistic way of looking at it, if you're on the outside of that community and you're not one of those 18 year old kids that grows up with the incredible influence of all the people around him, and that's all you see and it's all you know.


Well, but the problem is the only way that's going to be the thing that your kid doesn't know is for you not to do it. At some point, personal agency has to come to some.


It does, because what Tatian education and teaching them about personal agency and letting them understand that there is a way out of this and that the path they see being replicated over and over again by these people that wind up dying young, that wound up going to jail, that there are other options. There's a lot of kids that never get that other information or if they get it, they get little blips of it. But the vast majority of the information, the vast majority of the influence they get is terrible.


Well, I totally agree with this. And this is. Why? I think the worst thing that you can say to a kid is you're born behind the eight ball and no matter what you do, you're not going to succeed. That's literally the worst thing can say to a kid. What you should be saying is look at how your grandfather was born behind the eight ball and look how hard he had to work in order to get ahead and look at all the upper house.


True, though. But if your grandfather wasn't ahead, didn't get ahead, if your grandfather was in and out of jail, if your father was in jail, everyone around you is like that. If there's literally no influence, that's positive in your life. The idea of saying to a kid like that, hey, don't pick up a gun and shoot somebody. It's way that's way too simplistic. A version of their future in my in my life.


I mean, my problem is I don't see an alternative solution.


I think an alternative solution is there has to be some sort of large scale intervention in these communities to do something about what what what has already been set in motion and the momentum that keeps continuing decade after decade that I don't know what could be done.


Well, but that that's the problem is that I think that a lot of the solutions that have been proposed have already been tried. Meaning difference. Okay, so, for example, LBJ thought that the way to alleviate a lot of these inequalities was the war on poverty. And he openly talked about this. He talked about he gave a speech very famously in which he said, we're trying to guarantee equality of outcome, not just equality of opportunity, equality of outcome.


And you can't hold the race where somebody is starting 20 yards behind and then fire the gun and say, OK, it's an equal race. All right. So you have to get the person who's 20 yards behind to actually get up to the starting line that they're equal. And so the idea was we're going to fight this war on poverty and alleviate poverty largely through transfer payments and and through the government taking a forceable step in favor of alleviating people's lives.


We've been 22 trillion dollars in the war on poverty, and we have about the same number of black Americans living under the poverty line as we're living under the poverty line. By the late 70s, the the real issues that that are inter, that are creating intergenerational poverty, everyone knows this, but remains true. The number one predictor of intergenerational poverty in the United States remain single motherhood. The single motherhood rate in the black community was 20 percent in 1960.


It is upward of 70 percent today. That's not unique to black men who, by the way, it's true in the white community as well. The 45 percent of white kids were born out of wedlock in 1960. Today, it's upward of 40 percent. That is not something has happened and it is not a matter of increased racism. That's not happening because of increased racism. Right. That that is happening because there has been a cultural change that does not place tremendous emphasis for black or white or for anybody on personal responsibility and personal agency.


There needs to be a mindset change. We do this, by the way, in all other areas of American life, except for the most important decisions in the area of sports. Nobody does this routine. And there is a point Shelby Steele makes in the area of sports. If a kid is not does not have the jumpshot nobody system, you know what? You don't have the jump shot because your father didn't have the jump shot. His grandfather didn't have a good jump shot in the game is biased against you.


We say, okay, if you wanna be on the team, you're gonna have to learn to shoot a jump shot. Right? That sounds harsh. That sounds bad. But sports are different.


And here's why sports are different. Because sports, you enter them independently of your culture.


You you base what you're trying to do on the parameters of the rules and the people that you're competing against. That's how you look at it. So whatever culture you're from, you. You walk into this new thing with this very rigid set of rules.


Well, I don't hear your point line. Only white people are loser. Asians have a monopoly on valuing education or a monopoly on hard work or punctuality or anything. I think that black people have exactly the same capacity as any people of any other race to do all of these things. And those are the preconditions for success. You either meet them or you don't.


I mean, that's true for everybody, but don't for success. But don't you think that a lot of that is predicated on the environment that you develop in and the people that you're around and the the lives that you imitate and the infomercials that you have around you? Someone has to do something to influence those kids in a different way. Look, I was very fortunate when I was younger. I discovered martial arts and it kept me from being what I could have potentially been a bad kid.


It gave me something to focus on. There's and I didn't grow up in a bad environment. But it wasn't the best. There's a lot of people out there that grow up in horrific environments and they never have that thing. They never have something. They don't have a father around or they don't have a mother around or whatever. Whatever bad influences they have are overwhelming.


And they they don't. It's it's very difficult for someone to just air quotes, get their shit together.


It's very difficult for Schertz. Why to this day, there's so many books about losing weight. Don't you think everybody wants to lose weight? That's fat. They do. They everybody who's fat wants to be thin. They do. But it's fucking hard for sure. And that's nothing in comparison to changing your whole life.


But you would say about somebody losing weight. You know, it's not useful here is lamenting how bad your family has had it with regard to losing weight. Like, at a certain point, if you want to lose the weight, you've got to figure out a way to lose the weight. That's true.


This is based on the information that I have. I have this vast. Scope of information that I've been able to absorb. If you're in these isolated environments and everyone around you is involved in gangs and crime and drugs, it's very difficult to model yourself after something that you don't see in real life.


So totally true. Totally true. And that's why, again, more information needs to get into areas. I agree with a lot of the opportunities that need to be provided by education. Getting people to be educated outside their local public school would be to change able to like, move outside your crap local public school to go somewhere else would be good.


The best influences for kids that grew up in these environments seemed to be people that have gotten out and then come back and talk to them. Right. And tell them how to do it. But no system can it be done.


But to go back to the original conversation. None of this has to do with telling kids that you live in an evil country that seeking to keep you down.


Well, maybe not. But there there has been a very small amount of emphasis placed on taking these impoverished communities and figure out how to engineer them out of the situation. What social industry?


So I don't know. It's true. Yeah. I mean, the amount that we've spent on a federal level and a state level on educational programs and poverty programs over time.


But, well, on a year to year level, I mean, these are these are enormous quantities of money. This is not a month. And this is not really a money problem. It really is not a money problem in just terms of you could sign everybody a check tomorrow. The predicate. So the predicate for the slavery reparations movement is exactly this sign. Everybody, a eighty thousand dollar check. And the problem will be alleviated.


No, it won't. I don't think that's. I don't think I think they'll spend eighty thousand dollars and I'll be right back where they started from.


But I do think that there is an argument that there can be some way of engineering, whether it's community centers or education or doing something differently in these places to chip away at this problem.


So on that stuff, we totally agree. The only point that I'm making about the 16 19 project is when you teach people that they are the victims of a society, it makes it very difficult for them to succeed. The story of black America should be a story of unbelievably brave people triumphing over systems that sucked. I mean, that is the story of black America. Most black Americans do not live under the poverty line in the United States. There's a huge black middle class killer just like upper class.


Yes, there is. Let's let's simplify this if we can. Sure. Ben Shapiro is the king of the world. How do you fix Baltimore? How do you fix Detroit? How do you fix the Southside of Chicago?


OK. So here's the unpopular view. But it happens to be empirically correct. The first thing you have to do is you have to load the place with police. You got a load, the place, the police, because you stop crime. Once you stop crime, then businesses are happy to invest in those areas and get businesses to invest in those areas and provide jobs unless the crime is gone. You need, in fact, one of the reasons that you have such a vast differential in racial crime in the United States is because of white racism.


Here's the point. The Jane Leavy, writer for the L.A. Times, has made you write a book called Ghetto Side. She points out that the reason that black crime was so high in the early 20th century in late 19th century is because basically white communities said to black communities, you're on your own. Right. Enjoy. And so the crime rates ended up spiking because there were no police there. You have to make sure that law abiding people are protected, the law abiding businesses are protected, that people want to live there, that people want to invest there.


You have to have a re-establishment of faith in churches where you need social institutions outside of government that are promoting things like family. You need you need more than one of the reasons anymore companies in these areas is they can offer educational opportunities to kids, internships, deals to go to college and then come back and work for us for a couple of years. They need opportunity the same way that opportunities built anywhere else on Earth. You need to provide a safe space for business to work and for free speech to flourish and for education to be valued.


You need to go and you need to make clear to every kid. If you graduate high school, then you will have a shot at college, which, by the way, is 100 percent true today. If you're a black kid and you graduate high school with any level of achievement, you'll have a very solid shot of at least going to a community college. And if you score even decently on the S.A.T. is of going to a very high level college.


Right. Affirmative action programs are extraordinarily common across the United States. But the first message is we are going to ensure that law and order prevail here, a safe space for life, liberty and property and ownership of private property. And we are going to make sure that you, as a law abiding citizen, have the opportunity to succeed because the biggest obstacle to young black kids growing up in the inner city, again, is not history. It is in the moment the drugs, the crime, the fact that there are no fathers in a lot of these areas.


Roland Fryer, black professor at Harvard, he's done excellent work showing that actually the number one factor in allowing kids to to rise is not even having a father in the home and how many fathers there are generally in a community. So you can you can have a single mom, but there are a lot of other male father figures around that helps fill in the gap. Right. These are practical things, giving kids the ability to pick the school they go to.


They don't have to go to the local crappy public school. If it's a local crappy public school, it be a solution here. But this all starts with the notion that it is not racist in the slightest to suggest that law and order have to prevail and that law abiding people should be protected in their exercise of their rights.


I think you're 100 percent right on that. And I think although that might be. Unpopular opinion. I agree with you. I think that is very important. Now, what do you do in this environment when you look at the way people distrust the police now in particular? I mean I mean, I've been reading stories about cops going to five guys burgers and they can't get served because people won't serve cops. And this idea that all cops are bad and this is a really, really disturbing perspective to me because you're seeing what's happening right now in Chicago.


You're seeing what's happening right now in New York where you have this massive uptick in violent crime because it's perceived that the police presence has been diminished greatly.


So how do you reaffirm the trust in in in law enforcement? And what do you do to reform law enforcement? Because clearly, there are some people that are cops that should not be cops.


Yes. That there are a few things that you can do right off the bat and that people right, left and centre I've sort of talked about. And one of them is that you can abridge qualified immunity in certain areas. Qualified immunity is the idea that you're not liable to civil suit if you don't do something bad has specifically had a precedent in law. So you could do something bad. But as long as nobody else has done the same exact bad thing before, you're not subjected to civil liability.


You could that experiment. It's a little complicated to qualified immunity generally means that if I do something bad, then as a police officer, if I act within the scope of my general reasonable authority, you can't sue me for it the actual way they do something bad.


What if you shoot somebody while you're operating? Right.


So so the the reason the qualified immunity, as currently understood under Supreme Court doctrine is too broad is because the standard used to be you would have to act as a reasonable police officer if you acted as a regional police officer and you took a reasonable action that somebody went for their waistband. They had an object in there. You didn't know whose gun you shot them. Right. You wouldn't presumably be suitable because that's still reasonable. You track a guy down, you shoot em in the back, you know, and then put the gun on him.


That presumably would be suitable. Right.


He'd be personally liable, stolen. So the the the way the Supreme Court has done this is they brought in qualified immunity to such an extent that you can still buy land, you can still get away with some bad stuff and not be sued for it. So that needs to be curbed. That's one thing. Second, police union contracts need to be utterly redone across the country. Police union contracts right now protect a lot of bad cops. Right. But because the police unions are designed to protect the members, the members of the unions, like any other union, you know.


And so what that means is that police unions I'm not a fan of public sector unions generally, but police unions need to be abridged in their ability to protect cops who do something wrong. Third, you need to have a national registry of cops who are disciplined for violation of procedure so that they can't just leave LAPD and then go work for a Ferguson PD. Right. So right now, those are some easy things that you could do right off the bat.


But the biggest thing right now, the biggest factor in terms of lack of faith between police and in citizens really is the media, because there's been a lot of talk about the racial constituency of police forces.


The majority of the LAPD is minority. The majority, the Baltimore P.D. is minority. I believe that a huge percentage of the of the Chicago PD is minority. So it really is not about, you know, lots of white cops in black neighborhoods in Baltimore. It's a lot of black cops in black neighborhoods. And that has not solved the problem of people mistrusting the police on an endemic level.


But it's an inherently difficult job. It's a rotten job.


And I mean, I've I've nothing but for good cops. Those are heroes. And the vast majority of cops are good cops in their heroes.


Yeah, I've read a meme the other day that's very accurate. It said if you have a hundred and thirty good cops and 12 cops, you have twelve cops that are bad. You have 12 bad cops if you have 130 good cops and 12 bad cops. But the hundred and thirty won't do anything about the 12 bad cops. You've got hundred and forty two bad cops. Yeah.


And I think that. That's right. Yeah, I think that's right. And I think that it is also true that our standard of what constitutes a bad cop has in some ways become much more stringent. So, for example, there are cases that become national stories in which a cop was labeled a bad cop. He wasn't bad cop.


Right. But there are bad cops for sure. Look, look, here's a great example. The the cops that pushed down that old man. And whereas in Buffalo, New York. Zerwas Yep. Granted. Scholte Yep. That's fucking crazy. And that's white on white crime, right? I mean, as a white guy pushes this old man down. And the most bonkers part about that was the way the president reacted, like the way he felt some seemed funny.


Maybe he was antifa. Maybe he's undercover.


Like there was literally the worst possible reaction to watching an elderly senior citizen get pushed down by a young, strong man.


I mean, President Trump had the worst possible reaction to a Vegas slot thing. I believe the reaction. Yeah. I mean, unknown doesn't Trump having that reaction said, look, I'm I'm a big supporter of law enforcement.


I have a lot of friends that are cops. I know a lot of a lot of people from martial arts that are cops from the UFC. I know a lot of cops from jujitsu, knew a lot of cops growing up from all the different martial arts disciplines that I engage in a lot of. Cops get involved. There's a lot of good cops, there's a lot of good people out there. But it is a fucking insane job. And so many of them have PTSD for sure.


But I will say that one of the great myths is that the big threat to the black community in the United States is law enforcement. It's just nonsense. It's not only nonsense, it's counterproductive nonsense. And you're seeing it.


But it is a mantra. It is a threat all the time. It is on a data level, an extraordinarily small threat. Law enforcement and law enforcement is a threat to black life on a generalized level is extraordinarily small. The Washington Post database last year showed a grand total of 15 black Americans shot unarmed across the United States in a country of 42 million black people.


The problem is, when it happens, it doesn't matter what the statistics are. If people see, though, that's you. And that video gets shared 200 million times. It looks like there's 200 million white cops killing a black guy.


And this is why I say that the media's treatment of this stuff is just her. It's not just the media. It's it's social media. Social social media has blown this stuff up. And it's gotten to the point where if you say that's a horrible situation, that's also an anecdotal situation. Here's some data. If you present the data, it's like, well, you're are you ignoring people's lived experiences? That's racist. How can you present the data?


The data is the data doesn't take into account the full story. Nobody takes into account an awful lot of the story, which is why it's called data. Right? I just don't. Anecdotal evidence is evidence of an anecdote. It is not evidence of a broad national trend, nor is it evidence that taking a broad national policy, like cutting back funding to the police in a time of rising crime is a good idea because you saw a video on YouTube.


Well, I think I'm sorry, Mary, that's a terrible idea.


But when you look at these videos, the positive side, if there is any positive side, is that it's they're accountable now. And this has been going on forever. If you talk to people that are black, that grew up in poverty stricken areas, they will tell you horrific stories about being abused by cops. And I think the numbers like 25 percent more likely a black person or brown person getting any sort of interaction with a cop is 25 percent more likely to become physical for them to be abused.


That's that's real. Right. When you look at the statistics of them being killed, yeah. White people get killed more by cops than black people. But there's way more white people.


No, no. Even on a percentage basis, when you have to use the control group of crime, you can't use the control group of raw population since to look at people who are in situations where a deadly interent interaction is likely. There've been multiple studies that show that black people are not in more danger of being shot by cops than than white people. But it is true that low level uses of force between cops and black people are worse than low level uses of force.


Cops and white people, right. That's the Roland Fryer study. There are a few confounds that have yet to be sort of worked out.


I think probably why people are less likely to believe that the cops are going to kill them, whereas black people are probably convinced the cop's going to kill them. I mean, might that might play a factor in why there's more white people being killed by crime.


That may very well be true. It may also be that low level uses of force is maybe a force, maybe disparate. If you think that the cop's likely to be a racist, then you might be more likely to resist the cop than he might be more likely to rough you up.


So it's it's very difficult to rub out the confounds there. The one thing that we know for sure is that the greatest threat to black life, just like the greatest threat to white life, is members of your own race killing you. Like, if you talk about actual murders, white people are killed by white people, black people, arguably black by people, you know, mostly.


Right. It's interracial. Right. There is there's very little interracial crime, like black on white or white on black in the United States. There's a lot of intra racial crimes, a lot of white people victimizing white people and black people victimizing black people. And the question is, how do you stop that? This is why and if you saw this interview is kind of an amazing interview. Terry Crews, the actor. Yeah, he was on with his own.


Don Lemon, Don Lemon and Don Lemon is doing the Black Lives Matter. Sloganising and Terry Crews says, well, all lives matter. And Don Lemon says. But no black lives matter. Doesn't mean all black lives matter. Right. But, Terry, was it all Black Lives Matter? He said, no, no. Not all black lives matter. Only Black Lives Matter. Only talking about police brutality right now. And Terry Crews is like, why aren't we talking about all Black Lives Matter?


Because if Black Lives Matter means you withdraw cops and we're drawing cops means more dead black people, then why wouldn't those lives matter to you? And this is where the sloganeering gets in the way of actual progress because where ideology hits facts, right?


Exactly. It gets very weird. And Terry Crews was called some terrible names for that. But then a video surfaced of Don Lemon from 2013 chastising Bland's like me on that. He sounds like me talking. Sounds exactly like you.


It's hilarious. Pull your pants up. Get your shit together.


You know, like he's literally saying things like don't have babies out of wedlock. All right. Stay in school. Which, by the way, again, all of this is commonsensical and true for all races. It is not just black people, young white people in Appalachia. I need to get their shit together. Yeah, everybody needs to get their shit together again.


Young white people in Appalachia dealing with the same thing. What's around them all the time is crime. People taking pills, everyone having babies out of wedlock, people impoverished. No hope, no no potential for escape. I mean, not that I agree, but the first. It has to change the fact.


So my dad had a when when I was looking to get married, my dad said, the way that you get married is it's not that you find a girl and then you decide to get married, you decide to get married, then you find a girl, meaning that you have to sort of make up your mind that your own that you're in the mode of this might be where we'd disagree the most is a good way to get hooked over the wrong lady, bro.


Well, you make a life decision that you're at that point in your life when you want to make a decision along those lines.


Get married when you love a girl so much, you're willing to do something so fucking stupid that you want to get married to her because getting married to her is hell is we're going to get married.


Less painful to you than the idea of losing that person? Because I. Look, I think marriage the good thing about it is that there's financial protection for the family financially, particularly when there's children involved. I think that's what is the most important thing. You know, I think financial protection for the children. Look, I grew up without child support. My father was a deadbeat dad. So I know what it's like to be poor because your father doesn't support you.


I think that's horrific. I've seen it in many situations. I know many people that have been the victim of this. It's disgusting. There are a lot of shitty men out there that don't take care of their kids. White, black, Asian. It's universal. That needs. I think that is where the legal definition of marriage and protection of children and protection of the woman wants to take care of these children financially. I think that's significant when it comes to bringing the state in to somehow another solidify your love, like, you know, I love you, you love me.


But let's bring in a bunch of fucking people we don't know and write it down on paper. That's nonsense.


Well, I totally agree that, obviously. But the point that I'm making is that when you want to make a change in your life, you first have to commit that. You want to make the change before you make the change.


Well, sometimes you meet someone. That's why you want to make a change for them. OK. So not to get new marital advice here, but like that.


But I have some you know, I've been married for for 12 years at this point. Thank God. Very happy marriage. We have three kids. And the the reason that I say you have to make up your mind that you want to get married before you get married is because you look for a different set of factors than if you are. If you are if you make up your mind, you wanna get married. We're going to look for is commonality of values.


Who is the person you want to build your life with? Do you share interests? You share a vision for the future. Whereas if you sort of fall into it, then you can fall in love with somebody you don't share any of these things with. It makes it a lot more difficult later on to actually the life through.


I don't think you fall in love with someone that you don't share values with. I think you think they're hot and you want to fuck them.


Well, let's legs this stuff up pretty regular. Wow. People are selling. People are indeed. Zulay will do. People tattoo their eyeballs and they do a lot of dumb shit.


You live in a world. I don't know. That's not my world. I don't have any friends with eyeballs tattooed.


But people make mistakes with they get attracted to someone physically. And, you know, particularly men are. And I guess women too. I'm just not one of them are attracted oftentimes by people they think are sexy, but are a bad choice in terms of a life partner. Right. But I don't think you fall in love with those people. They just become. How many is married a girl just because they thought they were hot?


Well, there are a lot. A lot. A lot.


But some men, period, such as Jews, like the drug of sexual attraction, is the most sold drug in the United States. It sells cars. It sells homes.


It's literally it sells lifestyles, pornography. But what is that?


I mean, when you're seeing a woman with a short skirt on and long legs walking like like lustfully around a car, what do you what does she what do you say?


You're saying if you buy this car, maybe you can fuck this girl. That's what I'm saying. Well, cause the worst fucking false advertising we have in America.


This is why when it comes to marriage, I think that it's important to actually put your large head before it, before your other one. You know, Jonathan Heit in his book, his book called The Happiness Hypothesis. A great book. Terrific. Right. And he talked about this. He talks about the fact that people make a very large scale mistake about marriage, which is they think that the passion you feel at the very beginning is what you're gonna feel 40 years in.


And that's not the way this works. It starts off whether you're passionate love level for somebody, meaning like lust and how much you wanna get him in bed and how much you want to be with them all the time. Is it like one hundred and you're and your level of kind of committed love. Right. That that level of love where you have shared values that matters to you like this much. And then over time, after about like two years, the passionate love starts to decline.


And by the time you're 60, then you better have shared values, because after 60 years, it ain't gonna be like it was when you were 20. Right. So you have to have in mind what things are going to be like a few years down the road, which is why I say you should be thinking about what your life together is going to be like before you fall into bed to get that sound advice.


But wow, at sea, that's where I disagree, because I don't think there's anything wrong with falling into bed with someone that you're not going to live the rest of your life with. That's where you and I probably disagree.


Yeah. I mean, I think that it is a bad idea generally. And again, I think that it is a bad idea because a lot of people out there that have had some really good times, those bad ideas higher, and it may be that when I die, I look back. And that is one of my great regrets, my friend.


But let me just say that that I think that the the thing that that has been foregone is in my life at least more than made up for by the relationship that I have with my wife. So I can all go anecdotal there.


But I also was I'll go data driven, which is the longer you live together with somebody before you get married, the higher divorce rate after so that the divorce rate after real if you've lived a long time with somebody, then you get married.


There is a higher percentage chance you'll end up divorced. It's interesting. I wonder whether it is because of the open window syndrome.


Like people feel like, OK, I lived with you for three years, why aren't we married yet?


We marry you guys like the windows open. So though I completely committed.


So once the guy does sign off, she's like, why did you do this five years ago?


Well, there's some of that. And also, it feels like everybody kind of settled. Mm hmm. Right. Like, if it was if it was I'm still committed to this. I only get married right now.


Maybe they just did mushrooms together and realized they really love each other again. Different world like was it, you know. Yeah. I have a different experience for everybody else.


I dated my wife for three months. We got engaged. We're married within ten months. We married for twelve years. Well, versions when you're married, it's a world screening.


It clearly works for you. I've tried to be open minded with basically every kind of way that people live their lives, including like couples that live with other couples.


And they wife swap, which is I feel like that's complicated. I mean, I'll be honest, complicated. I was think those people are trying to I I know people to do that.


And I almost universally believe they are distracting themselves from their life, their distract themselves from either their career, they're fulfilling their potential, whether it's as an artist or as a creative person or as a person who's pursuing a discipline. I really believe that a lot of times and people complicate their lives, multiple sex partners. And a lot of times what they're doing is they're doing it. They're distracting themselves and they don't realize it at the time. They're just keeps keeps getting pulled into this direction, pulled in that direction.


It's because you don't have a primary focus on something that's very important to you. Yes. You know, and it doesn't mean that you have to be with this person for the rest of your life. It doesn't mean we you have to only be with one person when I see a guy that is, you know, involved in swinging or something like that. The balance in a bunch of different gals. Trust me that you that you're going to waste time, man.


You know, there's not enough time in this life.


I mean, it's weird to have this whole conversation together, but it is true that if you want to be good at a thing or be successful at the thing, you have to commit to the thing. Yes. And so that's true whether you're talking marriage. It's true whether you're talking an occasional success or whether you're talking career and people, you know, making bad decisions because distractions are distractions, distractions, distractions with every discipline.


And I think relationships are a discipline and a lot of ways. I totally agree.


I mean, it is true that, you know, you have to make the pre investment and you have to. You have to make the commitment that you're going to continue to invest in the relationship as time goes on. Yeah. And then that's where people fall off the wagon. So I see a lot of divorces round your three men as that passionate love. Yeah. And it goes down. And the companionate love is the name of the term when the companionate love starts to rise.


People like. Well, yeah, but compendia loving as much fun as the passionate. Love it. Of course not.


Of course not. No, this is the way it works.


Well, that's nature's biological trick. The ultimate biological trick is like, look, when we were monkeys hiding from eagles, OK? You had to fuck as much as you could and spread that seed around because you likely only had five or six years on this earth.


Right. And you're dead at age 32. You were trying to just get as much of your DNA out there as you possibly could. That's still inside of us. That program is still inside of us. And that program is when you see a man and he's with a beautiful woman, but another beautiful woman walks by, is like looking at her and thinking, you know, maybe I can do better. That's a thing that is programmed into your DNA.


But you have to understand what that is. If you're a man and you understand what that is, you go, oh, this is nature and it's dirty little trick. Dirty little trick. Trying to get me to spread my seed. Brett. Brett Weinstein.


He illuminated this in a really interesting way. He's saying to me, what's the difference? Scene, beautiful and hot.


And I said, I don't know what is the difference? He's like, beautiful is someone who you look at. You're like, wow, that person looks beautiful. That's lovely. They have a beautiful face or wonderful eyes. They look great.


Hot is someone who's wearing like a short skirt and their tits are popping out. And you look at that person, you go, this is an opportunity for us to spread my DNA with no commitment. And that's what that is.


That's that's the pull and hot. That kind of hot is what's sold that cheap, quick, fast food sort of thing. That's what porn is. Porn is all hot. Porn is not beautiful. It's not. And I don't think porn's bad either. But porn is all hot. It's all dirty girls. It's all your stuff. Mom, your dad's off playing golf. It's that kind of shit. You know, it's like, you know, you're the pizza guy.


You show up and two girls are having a pillow fight. Yeah. That's it. It's your it's your lizard brain versus your prefrontal. Clark, actually. It's your monkey brain. It's that monkey that wants to hide from the eagle.


That's what it is. It's like it's like I could just do this real quick.


And across the board, you're going to you're going to have a better life. May not be a hotter life. You can have a better life. Use the prefrontal cortex a little more often.


Yes. Unless you're Hugh Hefner. I don't know if he had a good life or not.


He seems there's some people who work with him near the end. You know, it's going miserable and don't think it is the end.


I'm sure he is miserable. He's an 80 year old guy hanging out with 20 year olds. What the fuck do you have to say to these people? Right. It's like you were talking about with O.J. Simpson.


O.J. Simpson had a mostly peaceful, mostly peaceful day. Well, his life is mostly annoying. The time when you're a years old, you only get to fuck those 24 year olds for like, well, how long can you last?


I mean, once every six weeks, I think.


Well, he's on probably all kinds of drugs that keep his dick hard. But I would imagine, like, he couldn't run on a treadmill for 20 minutes. Right. Right. At that age. So how is he gonna have sex for 20 minutes?


So if he even if he's having sex, like, it's probably exhausting, then the rest of the day he's just listen to them talk about tick tock and all kinds of other stupid shit.


It's like he's like lumbering. Frank Sinatra is here with a banging and everything inside sight is like those were good old days. I was wearing a robe.


I had a pipe. We were having fun on a TV show. And, oh, I am my own channel. He had a Playboy channel for a while.


Yeah, I think it's the image of it is way more interesting than the actual act of living that life.


Yeah. And I think that, again, that that goes back to, you know, every bad decision people make is is tied into this is the image of things looks way better than the actuality of things. It's true in politics. It's true love. And it's true in a lot of things. Yeah. And so you actually have to look at the actuality of things and you don't want to be an 80 year old guy live with five 24 year old girls.


You just don't think I lived in hell. I guarantee you. I bet his life was mostly annoying. But every now and then was having sex as was 24 year olds is probably like, I can't believe this is real extreme.


But then 30 seconds. Yeah, I can't believe this perfect body. And I get to live with this wrinkly sack of rocks and he has a body.


He gets to have sex with this beautiful, perfect specimen of of a female human being.


And then she's like, buy me stuff. And he's like that God, this is all he has to do. You make me famous. Yeah. Yeah. Worked out great.


Well, you know, I'm gonna grab a bite by the end. It seems like it's pretty dingy. Dude, I went there. I don't really think a marijuana policy project thing there.


And it sounds like a lot of policy says that. A lot of policy already.


But one of the things he did was like we were wandering around like an AA summit, you know, like when I go to Heritage Foundation and what it sounds like, it was it was a fun night.


Well, whatever, remember know there was a lot of marijuana I smoked.


It was quite a blurry evening. But I remember thinking, like, my God, this Grado is so outdated.


Like it had like a fucking old ass phone there. And I'm Mike. How much. How many people fucked in here?


Like, how weird is just by generations of human residue. And yeah. Yeah. And maybe not like the best times either.


You know, it's like a lot of it, it's it's just it's what you think it is versus what it is yet. Well you know, let's all work out of life. It is. Let's work on and thinking about what things are rather. Yeah. What we would like them to be because it's accepting reality is is a hard one. Definitely realities and real tough one.


Yeah. That's a problem. It's a problem with advertising too. Right. Because advertising shows you and social media and social media as well. That's another the other Jonathan hype book, The Codling in the American Mind, which is amazing. And it is really illuminates and I'm waiting for my kids to read it.


I think maybe this year is a good time for my twelve year old just to understand that this is this is a real issue with children that are comparing their lives to these for.


Oh, here's here's an example. I wanted to show you something. I haven't actually put this up anywhere. But this is actually important because this is so goddamn crazy. I want to show you something. This is something that my daughter did. This is my daughter's ten. Okay. That's her. Look at that. Oh, my God. That's a 10 year old. You're right. Sannyasin you're like a 20 year old right there. Exactly. How is that possible?


How about my 10 year old daughter?


You're watching YouTube make up tutorials. So she used the fucking app.


She used an app that turning Huerter into. It turned her into a woman. Like, what the fuck is that? So like when you're out against like that, what is that? How are they doing that? And who's doing that?


So if you're a girl and you are overweight or you have you don't like the structure of your face or, you know, whatever was bothering you, you have acne and you see a girl like that and she's she's like, can't believe I'm graduating high school elo. Well, what do I do now? And you see this.


That's not even her. Right? This is my 10 year old. She doesn't look anything like that. Like she showed. She's like, Daddy, look, this is what I look like.


I know that is not what you look. What the fuck? That's not what you look like.


And so I had her go through this with me and show me what she did. I'm like, show me how you do this. Like, what are you doing? She's using some weird app like. Like. Was it Chloe Cardassian, the one who changed? Who had.


Yeah. Yeah. That. Yeah. This is it's such a recipe for failure. It really is. It's such a recipe for failure cause you're always going to fall short of that. It's one thing to shoot for better. It's another thing to shoot for the unobtainable and shouldn't be upset when you can never reach the unattainable.


But it's sick. It's sick because you these people don't even look like that. And then you look at that and you go, why don't I look like that? Like they don't even look like that. Right. Amount of people that actually look like that.


That that image that I just showed, you know, is so small and so on attainable.


And then it has broader societal ramifications because then it turns into stories about, well, OK, well, society doesn't accept me for the way that I am society values that look. And that means society is flawed. And it's like, well, how about this? How about like people are flawed societies flawed. You're flawed the best you can.


Everything is flawed. Everything is flawed.


But that's not even really what the problem is. What the problem is. We've created a technology that we're not equipped to manage. We're not equipped to navigate social media. We didn't grow up with it. We didn't evolve with it. This is some it's involving us now.


No, it's true. It's 11 percent true. I and they've built these apps that are specifically designed to be addictive. Right. I mean, they're specifically designed to prey on certain parts of your brain that are you're not really in control of that are mostly subconscious. And that is scary stuff for sure. I mean, you can be manipulated by it, by that stuff.


It's very, very easily. Very easily. My kids my kids aren't getting like I seriously will not give them a smartphone until they're probably mid teens, late teens. Will they get a gun first? Probably.


Probably. Yeah, I feel like it's better logic.


And me, I'd rather that my thirteen year old know how to shoot than my thirteen year old not to browse porn. Yes, I think that is good logic. You know, what's it really that's a real issue with boys. Boys that have access instantaneous. I mean, if you give a booming phone, you're basically saying here little fella, go watch people fuck karez, they're gonna that's the first thing they're going to do when you're not around.


And there are all sorts of studies that demonstrate that this leads to relationship and sexual insufficiency later. And it ain't good. It ain't good. I mean, this is not an argument to ban porn or anything, but like the way that it has integrated into so many really young people's lives. I'm talking like young teens right now. What percentage of American males you think are addicted to porn at this point?


It's a giant. It's got to be fifty percent. Right. It's got it's got to be extraordinarily high percentage. And none of that is good for relations between men and women. And you got this weird dynamic where it used to be that the feminist movement sort of recognized what social conservatives did, that this is pretty objectifying and not necessarily great for women now and then.


It's like now it's in sex workers, which is weird. It is weird that they went completely the other direction. And I just thought, in what what do you Haefner fantasy did women decide that all the women at Hugh Hefner's mansion were actually super duper empowered? That that does not seem like the most super empowering lifestyle? You make your choices, man. It's a free country. But my wife's a doctor and I feel like that's more empowering than like getting screwed by an 80 year old for for, you know, pocket change ends.


And what kind of car he buys her was a doctor. She can get whatever car she damn well, please, my friend. What happened?


It would happen that that became like empowerment, like how to.


Whereas I think there was a shift and it's a shift that's happened throughout American society that went from the notion that men were acting like pigs and they should stop acting like pigs to what if everybody acted like pigs? And so instead of just saying that standards exist and people don't live up to them, but the standards are actually not a bad thing, we just decide, you know what, we don't wanna be hypocrites. We're getting rid of all standards whatsoever.


Everybody shouldn't have standards. And if you believe that anybody should have standards, then you're a hypocrite. And when all the standards go, then everything goes. So, like, I actually kind of agree with the original feminist idea that men were kind of acting like sexist jackasses and they should stop that. But the solution to that was not OK. No women should imitate men at their worst. And that's a free or better society. Like, I just don't think that that's against free country.


Do you want the legislative level? But as a cultural matter, I don't think that leads to a lot of human happiness.


I look at it like some sexual televangelists. That's what I look at, like pornography. Look, I think that you should be allowed to rip people off with a really obvious ruse, like if you're one of those late night people.


Can put hands on people and raise them from the dead. If you're one of those people, I feel like God, that's so obvious. It's almost like a good little pitfall to have out there in society to teach people that some folks can be deceptive.


And I feel like really manipulative women that trick old guys into marrying them and then take all their money. I feel like that's set since DRL evangelist's.


Yeah, that's deserved. At a certain point you're like, OK, I sign off on them on stupid.


Yeah. You didn't see this coming. It's like this a great country. You don't really think you can make money doing pretty much anything. Like when people say it's hard to make money in this country, there are a lot of people making money a lot differently. Yes. In this country. I mean, for God's sake, Colin Kaepernick is make millions of dollars kneeling for the national anthem, it feels like, and calling America racist while cash in the check is a great damn country.


Well, we're now getting into the weeds. I just want to talk about girls rep and dudes.


I know you did, but I wouldn't go back there, man. It's okay. But the Colin Cavanagh thing. All right. Don't you think that at least some good has come out of him doing that where it sort of raised awareness for police brutality? Just let it just put it to the forefront. Let people like let people understand that this is a problem.


No, not at all. No, no. Because I think that he made a serious error, which is that the most positive movement in American social history have been ones that don't kneel for the flag, but say in the name of the flag, you should do x ray to Martin Luther King said in the name of the flag. Civil rights are necessary. Booker T. Washington said in the name of the flag, civil rights are necessary. Then, say the American flag stands for racism.


Jim Crow to the Americans flags us for something beyond that. Live up to the American flag. But here's here's my track. The American flag is like DenTek of police brutality is, first of all, is bullshit. But second of all, it's actually divisive on an issue that does not need to be divisive. Like nobody is in favor of police brutality, nor should anyone be.


Right. Here's a counterpoint. Why is it trashing the American flag? To take a knee? Isn't that in some ways just another gesture of respect, like you're not doing what everybody wants you to do, which is put your hand over your heart. But you're doing something that's also respectful and silent. You're not standing up and going, fuck the American flag, fuck these people. You're actually taking it to another level of respect. You're taking a knee.


You're bending the knee whether you're doing it. For something that you want to talk about later, saying, I'm not going to stand up because this is my way of acknowledging the fact that there have been a lot of people that have been mistreated by police and murdered by police. And this is how I do it. This is how I treat racist police killing black people. I take that moment to take a knee like, how is that so disrespectful?


Like, how is that any? It's a just a silent gesture. It's not uniform. Like, it's not doing this thing that everybody else is doing. But you're doing something that's very respectful. You're taking a knee.


Well, that's certainly not the way that he intended when it first started that way. I mean, if you want to interpret it that way. Well, how do you know what his intention? Because he literally talked about it. I mean, he says that marijuana is a highlight that he said. But he said America is a systemically racist country. He wore socks with pictures of cops as pigs on them.


Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.


Colin Kaepernick is a terrible spokesperson for this movement. Like, again, like these at this.


You mean people that have taken a knee. And don't you think that if you just look at the gesture itself, is taking a knee even more respectful than standing with your hand over your heart?


I mean, then I imagine millions of us would routinely take any for the American flag.


I mean, the idea wouldn't if that was the thing you had to do, if the if the. But again, this guy decided to stand and put his hand over his heart. Really, it's just it's sort of a traditional thing where we're arguing over.


Well. I mean, it isn't the way that it was originally expressed. It sort of morphed over time, right to the point where it doesn't necessarily mean what he originally meant.


It's not like he's going for you while everybody else has their hand over their heart in silence. But he he's taking a knee.


He didn't mean it is an F you. I mean, there's no question that's what he meant it as he. And it wasn't even over something that actually made sentence, like you understand, in the civil rights movement, when people are raising the black power fist at the Olympics to say, like we're fighting for civil rights, Jim Crow is still in operation around the country. Right. Carl Cameron taking the knee to symbolize that America's police are systemically brutal and racist is just it's factually untrue.


And to attribute that to the American flag is really kind of nasty.


But he's not a statistician, right? So he's looking at things like the Eric Garner case or, you know, which is a terrible one. Right. There's there's cases that you see, like when the guy's just selling loose cigarettes and a stray noise from the store. It's a terrible case. You see something like that and that motivates him to do that. And I know what you're saying, that these are anecdotes. And this this doesn't encompass the full statistics of cops vs.


black men and how it what what exactly is happening. But that's not his area of expertise anyway.


He has he has an that. So let's give him a spokesperson for a move that where he has no expertise is a weird thing, that he didn't get plenty of people to talk about this with actual statistical. Right.


But if your knowledge a famous person and you do decide to take this big stand publicly like that after you get benched for Blaine Gabbert.


Yeah. If you get blank bench for Blaine Gabbert and take millions of bucks from a major corporation, kersley a brain. Is that the Glenn get them? Yeah, that the immortal Blaine Gabbert, the Hall of Famer Blaine Gabbert. And he's about now Blaine Gabbert was an NFL quarterback who shocked. I mean, he was terrible and they benched Colin Kaepernick form and was after he got benched that he started doing the kneeling for American flag.


I am a pretty good gig sports broadcaster who knows nothing about sports. This is it. People try to talk to me about you. Just blame me. But if you'd explain it the way that you're explaining it, meaning we're not living up to the American flag, which is why I'm kneeling. Mm hmm. I wouldn't be arguing with it. He didn't explain it that way. That wasn't that one. The weight went down. But it's just him.


What do you think about God?


There's certain guys that like lock arms during the American Prometa. OK. Locking arms. Okay. But kneeling is bad.


Well, no, what the way that he characterized his kneeling was bad. Okay. Meaningly. But what about other people that kneel if they characterize it differently means different thing. Okay. Right. I series.


Meaning like what it originally was is what it was to retcon what I meant at the time. He was the first to do it. Right. Right. And then he and then he made millions of dollars for his bravery. And I don't think it takes a whole hell of a lot of bravery to be benched for Blaine Gabbert.


Take a knee, make millions of bucks from Nike, which proclaims Blaine Gabbert fellow was terrible QB rating. I really need to know. Not a not a good quarterback is the answer. So is Colin Kaepernick. I mean, I don't. As an athlete, is he not good?


He's a terrific athlete. He's not a very good quarterback. OK. So, I mean, he he had one fantastic season. He led the 49ers to the Super Bowl. And then, like a lot of kind of one hit wonders in sports. People kind of figured about season two and his QB rating started to decline. But I mean, look, bottom line is that the making him the spokesperson of the movement where he really I don't like the idea that you are going to attribute to all of America a sin that is, number one, anecdotal in nature.


And number two, cannot be attributed to America's highest ideals. You're doing it wrong. If you want to fight police brutality, say America is not living up to her promises. Say that the promise of America. Like there is a way to convert every successful social movement in American history has done this. The gay rights movement did this. The gay rights movement said, listen, everybody in America has been guaranteed a certain level of freedom and we're not being guaranteed that level of freedom.


Right. The freedom to pursue happiness is not being guaranteed to us. We're just asking that we be left alone. Leave us alone. It took time, but most Americans. Came around that perspective, that the same thing holds true on race, the same thing holds Trump police brutality. If you make an invocation and you say to Americans as Americans, I know that over time, my fellow Americans are going to come to realize that they need to live in accordance with the fundamental principles that founded the country.


That's unifying. To say that the American flag is inherently non unifying is is really bad. Like to the point where you now have college campuses where you fly an American flag. There have been cases where people are asked to take it down. It is too divisive like that. That's a net. That's. That does seem crazy when you say it's anecdotal that, you know, he's reacting something that's anecdotal, but there's many of those anecdotes and then you see them over and over again.


The problem is there. So there's there's so prevalent. There's so many videos. So this is my friend Joe Schilling is a kickboxer and his entire Instagram has been dedicated to bad cops over the last 12 months, just showing all these videos of bad cops. I mean, yes, it's anecdotal, but God damn, there's a lot of anecdotal.


There's 330 million police interactions every year. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's what was the initial interaction that want what was his motivation to do that? Was there in a single instance of police brutality that caused him to do the crime?


Remember which season he did this sort of in three, four years ago? So I'm I'm trying remember, I don't think it was the Michael Brown situation because remember, there are protests in the NFL over Michael Brown, which was actually a bad anecdote. Like that was a bad one for people to pick. People were doing the hands up, don't shoot. That didn't actually happen.


But he actually tried to grab the gun from the cop. He forgot the car. He charged the cop by witness testimony. All the witnesses were black.


You know, the Eric Gardner one is much cleaner, right? Well, the Eric Garner one is cleaner in terms of police brutality. It's not super clean in terms of racism or even cause of death. So this is one of the problems. Police brutality, police brutality for sure. It's kind of like it, actually. Yeah. I'm warning people now that what happens in the George Floyd case with Derrick Chavan, like they should be warned upfront. I want this police officer punished.


I think everyone wants the police officer punished. The defense is going to make a case that the police officer is not responsible for George Floyds death in exactly the same way that the New York police officers made the case that they were not responsible for Eric Garner's death and that the autopsy, the initial autopsy tends to support that.


So what that suggests is not that Derrick Chavan is good or clean or decent, but if you're gonna charge him with murder, that's that's a hard charge to make. Just on a legal level, some morning people now have that because the move, the next move will be. Obviously, the system is racist if Derek Chavan doesn't get convicted of first degree murder. It's gonna be very hard to convict him. I think you're charged with second. It's gonna be very difficult to say.


Charged with second.


Right. Because it first would mean premeditation. Right. Third, while he was charged with third originally and then Keith Ellison, the A.G. over there, elevated, it's a second degree. I think it's very difficult to make the case for it for second degree murder.


Well, were you pulling up, Jeremy? Something was. You know, I had a part of when this actually started in 2016, he started that. Let's keep it going. He started by sitting and people started getting video of him sitting in pre-season was starting. So then talk to a teammate. They discussed kneeling was the best thing for him to do at the time. You remember do you know which incident kind of kicked it off? But so I was gonna play a video of it, so I had to hear the actual first video of him talking about him donating a million dollars to a local community.


I think he had guns drawn on him, which is probably what stung.


OK, here's him talking about that.


And I've been very blessed to be in this position and be able to make the kind of money I do. And I have to help these people have to help these communities. It's not right that they're not put in a position to succeed or given those opportunities to succeed. And as far as taking a knee tonight, Eric as well as myself had a long conversation with me boire, who is a military and. We're talking about how can we get the message back on track and not take away from their take away from.


But keep the focus on the issue. As we talked about, we came up with thinking because there are issues that need to be addressed. There was also a way to try to show more respect. OK, that's better, obviously.


So that's him. Scroll down for a second, because I think that's his. That's 2016. So here's another look at this one. I'll get the one right below that. Okay. This is the one I'm talking about.


I'm not going to stand up to show pride and a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color. That's the center right there. So that's a different visually different than it was four or five days after these statements were made.


So he said he changed after talking to someone he made. Oh, OK. Right. So the initial explanation is the one that I was talking at.


OK. So he revised his feelings on it and then. Well, that's not reasonable. It started with these companies who had guns drawn on him by cops for being one of the only black guys in his town. Yeah, that seems super reasonable.


What he said there about how the second take on military. Yeah, that's been our military, rather. Yeah. Although he recently released a video that sort of goes back to the original explanation suggesting that America is endemically and systemically racist, which just which is a problem.


That's a hot take right now. It's good. It's very popular. Yeah. No, that's that's a big one. Yeah, it's the big one. Yeah.


Well, how do you think we get back on track? How does how do we find balance?


I always hope that things go really far in one direction and then really far in the other direction and sort of listen, I hope we end up in the same place I always end up, which is we gotta learn to leave each other the F alone. I mean, seriously. That's that's the only way this is going to work, because we either have to decide we want to share a country and live together with each other or we have to decide.


We don't know if we want to live together and share a country, then we have to stop basically making crazy demands of one another. And there's what the cancel culture is all about. But we've got we've got to stop that. We've got to recognize that people may not agree with you. People may do things differently than you. And that's OK. Like, as much that it's like like Kalat Colin Kaepernick stealing. I don't think you should be blackballed from the NFL.


If I were an NFL owner, by the way, hire him in a second. You know, the kind of press I'd get for hiring Colin Kaepernick, I'd make a boatload off of Colin Kaepernick.


That's a great deal. So how can people aren't doing it?


I mean, I assume because he's not that great a quarterback. I mean, like, if if he were Tom Brady, I think that he would be getting a contract. He also I mean, there was that whole situation last year with Captain Nick where he where he wanted to do tryouts for the NFL. And he sort of broke the NFL rules and doing the tryouts anymore. And it filmed it a certain way and all this sort of stuff. But look at him as a backup quarterback, because here's the thing.


He's going to please one half of the population plays the other either. He's amazing, in which case you have got a winning team and a great story, or he gets sacked every other down, in which case half the country shares a controversy sells. That's for sure.


But how do we I mean, this is probably one of the most racially divisive times in my memory in my lifetime. I don't remember things being everybody's worried about everything being racist, every single thing that anyone does. Syrup is racist. Pancakes are racist.


Oh, it's evolved into all the ESD, Trader Joe's store. You were telling me earlier, while it's a Trader Joe's, it's called Trader Joe's. Right. Which is not racist, I guess.


But apparently they they have Mexican products that they were calling trader hoses and some board person in their basement decided to create a petition that got signed by some four hundred other board people about why it shouldn't be called trader hoses, because that's racist. So apparently it's cultural appropriation. If your Trader Joe's and you make a burrito, but if he called Trader Jose's, then that's I think they called it exotic sizing. Mexican idealising. Yeah.


It's making me them exotic and other. So trader just bolted down. Trader Joe's going to is going to not do this anymore.


17 year old called out a 17 year old called Trader Joe's.


Now the chain is dropping offensive labeling closer to home, like how many Hispanics were picketing outside Trader Joe's being. Now that I saw that Trader Joe's a beer.


All right, listen, I'm Italian. Do you think pop genos. Is that really you know, I mean, is that really an Italian who made that company?


Like, how many how many different like different pizza companies and all these? I would love to see Italians.


I'd love to see the racial breakdown of the people who signed this petition. I would bet 90 percent of them are white.


You're 90 percent white, live in the suburbs, hate their parents. What did you say? What was the word they use for exoticism?


Zida scientists. Yeah. Oh, my God. That is so adorable. Exotic sizing. I was talking to you about Rick Bayless, who is a famous chef of Mexican cuisine, who is a white man who who adores Mexican food. I mean, I love the guy I love. Listen to his videos. I love Mexican food. So watching this guy's videos, it's like I love someone who's really into something. You know, I just get I get a kick out of even like this.


A guy used to watch on PBS. That would make furniture with the ancient tools. I could use like like ancient like difference. Old timey saws and chisels and shit. And he would make these wooden chairs and tables and furniture. This is right. I mean.


But he kind of looked like that. But he was he was really dressed like an old timey guy. And he had this old timey shop and he would make the stuff. And I loved watching him. I don't give a fuck about his shitty furniture. I don't. But what I cared about was the fact that this guy was really passionate about his thing and it was very attractive to me. And I feel the same way. And watch this guy, Rick Bayless, talk about Mexican cuisine.


He loves it. He takes regular trips to Mexico and learns how to cook these dishes in the traditional way and then talks about it with his great passion. But the guy just got shit all over. They were just like, you're culturally appropriating. You shouldn't be doing this. You're a white man.


I mean, just this generally cultural appropriation is bunch of horseshit. And the reason it's a bunch of horseshit is because, you know, it's the best in life. All the things that are good from ever, everybody else's culture's like.


The reason I live in major cities is to go to all the different restaurants from all of the different cultures. Yeah. Why is cultural? I am so confused as to why cultural appropriation is bad. Cultural appropriation is the greatest thing that has ever happened to planet Earth, yet siloed off into our own little culture.


You know, much things would suck. You would just be terrible so that this kind of. Yeah, this kind of stuff is just crazy.


Ubinas me nuts. Look, I grew up teaching Taekwando, which is a Korean martial art. I learned to speakout in Korean. I had to speak all the techniques in Korean.


Hate Koreans clearly. I mean, that's clearly the problem. I culturally appropriate the shit out of my childhood. Yeah, exactly. It's this is all this is all crazy. There's no there's no apparent end to it. Like, there's no limiting principle. There's no limit as an element.


I read a column this morning by somebody who was in The Washington Post saying that we should just keep changing the name of everything, like literally forever. We you just keep changing the name of everything she said. You know, there's this town and I think I found the non offensive name for the TAMBRA. I found something else that was offensive like three years from now, which changed the name of the town. There's no case. We are living in 1984.


Right. Your wheel talk about renaming everything.


People will find a way. They'll find a way to be mad.


Well, here's my here's my controversial statement. OK, OK. If you make controversial statement is if you have to go this far to find things to be offended over, there's not that much to be offended over. If you have to get go so far that you have to be offended by trader Hoess, you've got nothing going on in your life. There's a dramatic demand for being offended and acting like a victim, and they're just thinks it like they're actual victims in this country.


Yes. And internationally, they're seriously actual victims. Yeah. But we don't focus on any of those folks. Right. We focus instead on, like, the dumbest bullcrap you ever heard about, about renaming libraries. And listen. I'm fine with you. Want to you want to take a Confederate statue and put it museum. Finding those guys were jerks. They're terrible people. Find you all for it. But you're talking about. We're going to fix the world by renaming Washington, D.C. because Washington was bad.


What'd you do lately? Did you do what Washington did? Look, I understand we don't put up statues to people for all the bad crap they did. Martin Luther King had a real bad record with ladies. Okay, we don't put up statues to Martin Luther King because we are saying he was great with women.


I think everybody was bad with women back then. Everyone had periods. Human beings suck. Okay. So either get rid of all the statues or recognize the human being source, obviously. For sure. There are gradations of suck.


But remember back when they were tearing down the civil war statues and Trump in always wisdom's like, what are they going to do next? What about Lincoln? What about. They're going to take down George Washington and is like, oh, he's so crazy. Meanwhile, that's exactly what they're doing. That was what they were doing. I mean, in Chicago.


Well, actually, that was actually Christopher Columbus, who was legitimately a bad guy.


He was. I mean. Yes. And also, everyone was bad. Like, literally all the people were like enslavement. Brutal, brutal treatment of people. Right. Fairly commonplace. So do you think is there's an argument to be said that maybe we shouldn't celebrate those bad people anymore, that we know what they are. Now that we know what they really, really.


I think we just talk about the bad people. Like, I don't think we're the only good people in history.


I think they should have a statue of Ganga's Khan. I don't know what his country. That was good. That had good results. Well, he opened up trade to China.


OK, if you wanna put up a trade to China statue for Ganga's, he also the Trade Federation, 10 percent of the population. That's true enough. And what impregnated the other 10 percent is something that is I'm finding everybody literally raped his way through.


The point of a Christopher Columbus statue is not all the bad things he did to the airlocks. The point of a Christopher Columbus statue is we are glad the Western civilization came to the Western Hemisphere. I kind of agree with that principle. I think it is a good thing that Western civilization came to the Western Hemisphere. And yes, there's a lot of brutality and yes, there is a lot of cruelty. We talk about all those things. But this notion that the only cruelty that has ever existed in human history came at the behest of Western civilization, that everything was recently in paradise before Christopher Columbus came, that Christopher Columbus doesn't deserve a statue in specific, that we should.


That that, like, either make the argument that everybody was a product of their time and therefore no one deserves a statue or recognize that when there's a statue of Christopher Columbus, we are not honoring how he treated the airlocks. No one ever thought that we put up a statue to Christopher Columbus because he was really sweet. Natives on the other end of that, right, that nobody so what is the purpose of a statue like when you have a Christopher Columbus statue?


Look, what is the purpose of that statue?


We not we all know who we is. We all know what he did. Why do we have an enormous bronze version of him in the middle of a park?


I mean, presumably to say that Western civilization arriving here was a good thing or to have the conversation.


I mean, that's that's it's a monument to an historical event. Right. Right. Or it wasn't. Columbia University is named after Columbus. Right. The idea of America as Columbia. Right. Which was an alternative name for America, was after Columbus because he was a discoverer.


Well, that's a weird one, right? We're we're named after America vis Puchi, who nobody knows who the fuck that guy.


He got lost in that time. He's still live in laws. But there is this idea that he settled in that we and it's really of high irritation to me that we are now the only good people who have ever lived. Everyone who came before us was just a horrible person. And we are the only good humans we've ever like. Isn't the world lucky to have us? We're the only people who have ever lived are completely sinless. And we can look from our perch at the top of morality, at everyone who came before us and say that those people were all garbage compared us.


Now, there were people who were garbage compared to us, but I really don't think that Washington was among the people who you can say it was garbage compared to you. Like, I don't think that you living in 1770 are a better person than George Washington. I think you stand to top the legacy the George Washington hell built.


Well, I have news for those people that we're trying to break into Amazon go. History is going to look back at you like you're a piece of shit. The people in the future that would never shatter property and never spray paint things and never attack people for filming things with their cell phones, they're going to look back at these violent actions and they're going to look back and they're not going to be kind. They're the same. I mean, it's every single generation, hopefully, if society doesn't implode.


We now have nuclear war. Every single generation is going to learn from the mistakes of the past and hopefully improve. That's what we're hoping for.


And we should be happy that we can look back on a lot of these people and say we understand now how deeply flawed they were and what was wrong with George Washington or what's what was wrong with Thomas Jefferson, although he did, you know, draft the Declaration of Independence. He was a slave owner. And this is one of the contradictions of our society in our culture, that we fathered kids with a slave.


I mean, yes, yes. I mean, you don't have to shortchange the evils of human beings in order to recognize either the direction of American history or recognize the good things about people. People are a little more complex than I think we want to think of them. Yes and no. And this is one of the arenas that this sort of gets back to the point about the system. If you recognize that human beings are capable of great sin and also capable of doing great things.


What you really want is a system that that. Of checks and balances that prevents people from gaining too much power to hurt other people. And what you also want to recognize is that the flaws of human beings are not necessarily the flaws of the system. And that just changing the system is not going to change the underlying flaws of human beings. Which means actually we have to think through the policies that you're promulgating before you implement them.


Clearly, if you say this, you're not paying attention to what happened at Chass or Chope because they had it nailed. It was paradise for a short period of time. That's one of my favorite stories. Great of this year, because these people basically took over this gigantic chunk of Seattle and said, we're gonna show you how it's done. They wind up being the police. They want a beating the fuck out of people who did anything they didn't wanted to do, including film things they wind up see.


You saw a murder. You saw massive graffiti. You certainly saw borders. There were borders put up. They kept cops from coming and they kept a lot of people from coming in and up. Journalists beat up journalists. They took over private property. So they appropriated private property, these not buildings they built. They didn't make a deal. They didn't barter. They didn't have some sort of a beautiful, mutually beneficial agreement with these people that own these buildings.


Now, fuck you. They took them over. They took them over, start spray painting shit all over them.


It's crazy, but it shows you like your child, like childlike idea of what you can do. That's better. You don't take and you don't really understand that the founding fathers really did put into play into place all these checks and balances to keep someone from abusing power.


And as much as Trump would like to overcome all that you see time and time again, he's a great example in many ways of how this system really is beautifully engineered from 300 fucking years ago because the founders didn't understand the problem of human nature, which is people want power and they want to hurt other people very often.


And you still need government in order to do things. But there better be broad scale agreement on the things you want to do or a a small majority of people can really hurt a huge minority of people. Right. There's what they called tyranny of the mob. Right. They were they were much more afraid of this. And that's stuff that is worth remembering, you know, that the tearing down that system because you want to build something more beautiful, if it looks like Chaz or Chope, then anything less is idealistic.


They have blinders on. They have this narrow tunnel vision view of what they think is utopian future could be.


I think they think that human beings are can be fundamentally transformed by a different system. So they look at the problems. And one of the biggest problems we have in American politics is the myopia with which we look at the United States. So when you're dating somebody, it's very easy to see all the problems with the person your dating when you're married to someone. It's certainly easy for my wife to see all the problems in me, and there are plenty.


But when she looks at all the other people and she's like, okay, well, he's less flawed than the others, right? When you look at the United States, it's very easy to see all the different flaws in the United States because, of course, they exist. This is a society filled with humans, 330 million of them. But when you look abroad and you look at other examples of civilizations over time and then you look back at the United States, I think maybe the system isn't quite that bad, because the fact is that for all the problems we got, the biggest problems that humanity faces and has faced are not happening in the United States.


They're happening everywhere else. China right now is shipping weaker Muslims on trains after shaving their heads to concentration camps where they are being forcibly sterilized. There are actual problems on planet Earth. That is not to say there are problems in United States, but they are not the same in terms of degree and they are not the same in terms of scope. And to pretend that the system of the United States needs to be ripped down from the inside and that if you build a beautiful new system, you will shape humanity such that we are all saints and no sinners.


You had your mind.


I agree with you. And it's it's the weaker situation is shockingly undiscovered.


Oh, my God. Well, it demonstrates that when people said never again, they were full of crap. Was full of crap. I mean, it's not true. This is one area where the United States should absolutely be taking a leading role. Is obvious that China is a nefarious actor. China's been stealing our technology. China is it. The Chinese government is attempting to extend its rule of tyranny over Hong Kong. They just objected seven point five million people to their direct tyranny in violation of trading.


And the response has basically been muted from the Western world. Did you see that? Did you see that video of the the Chinese ambassador in Britain being asked on the BBC about that tape? No, I didn't. It's fantastic so that the BBC interviewer shows him the tape of the people being pushed onto trains. Right. And he says, what is this? And the Chinese ambassador says, I can't see it. I'm not sure what you're talking about.


He's literally seen his screen is huge right behind him, like he's looking right at it. And he acts as though he can't see it. And then he starts talking about the natural beauty of the region.


Right. He he he he won't he won't deal with it. He won't he won't explain what it is.


And the rest of the world is just like, well, you know what? This is where, you know, in the sporting world, the whole story that's undercover in the sporting world is the is the blowback on that the NBA gave to Daryl Morey, the Houston Rockets GM, for saying free Hong Kong. Right. You can't get anybody in the NBA to condemn China while China's subjecting a million leaguers to abject slavery. Mark Cuban just had an exchange with Ted Cruz the other day where where he is going after Cruz for something.


And Cruz said we'll just. Will he question Cruz? Cruz? Balls or something, and Chris came back and say, well, do you have the balls to condemn China? And Cuban said something like, well, you know, I don't want a I don't want to get involved in the internal affairs of another country. I thought, well, that's that is not internal affairs question. It's one thing to say I don't wanna get involved in the tax rates of other countries.


Nothing to say. Shaving people's heads, shipping them on trains to concentration camps where you force them into labor and or sterilize them. Seems like not an internal issue that you're not allowed to criticize. Really?


Yeah, that's a big one. But the China thing is so crazy because so many, so many business interests have this connection with them and so much of the money that they generate is because of China.


I mean, the NBA films, there's oh, it's there's so much so much of our culture, the kowtows to China. We're so connected to them. That's one of the things that we really found out from this pandemic, is how many things are built there, how much VR medicine, how much we rely on China.


It also demonstrates the lie of the idea that if you trade with somebody, then they're going to liberalize. And that was that was something that was pushed over the last 30, 40 years real hard, which is we'll help them out economically. We'll have mutual trade. It'll be good for both us and the liberalize, because once they realize it's good to be part of the world economy, then they won't be tirades anymore. Instead, they just took all the chips off the table and said, no, actually going a double down on this and we're gonna get more tyrannical, not less.


I mean, she is the most powerful Chinese leader since Mao is incredible. We don't have much time.


You have a heart out. And one minute. I just want to know, what do you think goes down in November and how hopeful are you for the future? Because it seems to me like we're fucked no matter who wins, because the chaos that we're seeing, the civil unrest we're seeing, it's going to either accelerate or or or or spread one way or the other.


So I think that if we're going to hold together, we have to make a decision either. Fundamentally, the American system is good but flawed. We need to work on the flaws within the system or fundamentally, the American system sucks and was rooted in slavery, bigotry, I mean, to rip down the entire system. The latter is not really a great recipe. So we can have normal political arguments within the former or the country is toast as far as what goes down in November?


Look, right now the polling data says Trump gets skunked. And then right now, the polling date has got Biden up 10. Twelve points in the polls.


But didn't the polling data in 2016 say that Hillary was going to steam roll on the national data, not on the national data? They were kind of right. So on the national data, the final real Clear Politics poll average is like three points. Hillary won by three points in the popular vote. The state polls were really were really wrong, particularly in Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania on this one, because Trump is universally losing and like all the swing states and is in spitting distance in Texas, he's got a lot of ground to make up right now.


Biden is running almost the ideal campaign. He's not alive. He's a not alive person. And as it turns out, beating a dead horse is actually kind of tough, right? I think that that because he's not threatening, he's fundamentally non-threatening. You look at Biden, do you feel threatened? But I don't feel threatened by Biden. The man is not alive. You can't threaten me with a corpse. Right. And so and so Trump, who is innately volatile and looking for something to kind of as has his own worst enemy, is his own worst enemy.


Like with Hillary, the untold story of 2016 is that Trump didn't win. Hillary lost. And people hated Hillary's guts. And the stat proves it is that people who hated both Trump and Hillary broke for Trump pretty heavily right now. People who don't like either Biden or Trump are breaking nearly universally for Biden because Trump is so off putting. And he said for a long time, politics is about the art of making it hard to vote for your opponent and easy to vote for you.


And Trump is fairly good at number one, and he is awful. He has got awful at number two, making it easy to vote for him. That that's that's a toughie.


Well said. Thank you. Ben Shapiro. Always good time. Always enjoy seeing you. All right. That's it. Bye, everybody. Thank you, friends, for tuning in to the show. And thank you to our sponsors. Thank you. To policy genius. If you need life insurance but you're not sure where to start. Had the policy genius, dot com policy genius will find you the best rate and handle the process completely. They'll get you and your family protected and hopefully give you one less thing to worry about.


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