It's hard, but we need to go and make a formal identification of the family and the boys. I couldn't do that. Some people find it helps cause I can't do that.

You telling me my boys are OK? I accept that. But I I don't want to see them like that. I want to remember, as they were. Welcome to the second episode of the companion podcast to HBO Maxis, the murders at White House Farm in which we go behind the scenes of the TV series and dive deeper into the tragic and horrific events that took place at White House Farm that fateful and fatal night in Essex, England, in 1985.

I'm your host, Lauren Pacheco, and today I am very honored to welcome Colin Cofell to the show. Colin is the ex-husband of Sheila Cofell, as well as the father of the two youngest victims of the crime, six year old twins Daniel and Nicholas. Although Colin and Sheila were divorced at the time of the murders, the two maintained a close relationship. Though Colin had custody of their children due to Sheila struggles with mental health devastatingly. Colin was the one to drop all three off at the farm for what was meant to be a few short days before tragedy struck.

It goes without saying that Colin was incredibly close to the events that took place that night on the farm, not only did he endure the staggering and unimaginable heartache of losing his boys, but from the outset he always maintained his innocence and continues to do so. To this day, as the series shows, he was also emotionally manipulated by Sheila's brother, Jeremy Bamber, who drew Colin into his fold and took advantage of his precarious emotional state in the aftermath of the murders.

In 1994, Colin published his book in Search of the Rainbow's End Inside the White House Farm Murders, which offers truly moving insight into his experiences and emotions surrounding the incident. But he's been largely silent about it ever since. Naturally, I was very grateful to be able to chat with him for this podcast, especially since Colin says that he intends for the conversation you're about to hear to be the last time he'll publicly speak of the events at White House Farm.

Colin did, however, decide to consult on the making of the murders at White House Farm, and his insight helped shape the series into the gripping, emotional and accurate portrayal of real life events that it is today. We'll talk to him about his decision to break his silence and get involved with the project and examine the effect that the events had on him and his life, including the terrible and daunting grief that would follow. But most importantly, I wanted to talk with Colin about the family dynamics that made this crime as intriguing as it is horrifying.

The relationships between him, his ex-wife, her parents and her brother were indeed complex and crucial to understanding how the case became so controversial. I'm incredibly appreciative to have been able to speak with him. Here's my conversation with Colin Cavell. What happened that night at the farm was obviously beyond tragic and extremely traumatizing for you. I know you've previously declined to take part in other attempts to cover the case.

How did you come to be involved with this series and what made this one different over the years?

I have had a lot of approaches by different TV companies to do a drama, and none of them ever felt right. But I got this lovely email from first from Willow Groves, the executive producer, and then from Chris Mercer. And they both approached me with such respect and sensitivity when I met both of them at Willow's office in London. I just so. Yep, this feels great. It feels safe.

I took a dear friend to hold my hand who had some sort of experience in the film business. And he came with me and came away from the meeting. And then he got a phone call later that evening from another friend of his called Thomas, who turned out he just been invited to be the producer. So I know, really, because I met the wedding of the guy who came with me, which is a really weird synchronicities, but it just all felt right.

There was a level of respect, really, that I got from Willow and Chris and the fact that they wanted to put me squarely in the frame as far as making sure they got the production right. Chris said to me that although he got all the information he needed forensically from Caroline Lees Leesburg, he didn't feel he could do the program justice without using my book as well, because in Search of the Rainbow's End was written much more at the time.

I actually started writing a month after the shootings, mainly because I, Mr Ainslee, who was a detective chief superintendent who took over the case, said to me, Keep a little diary of every thought memory you've got of what's happened in the last four weeks and before so we can help to build a bigger picture. So I started keeping those notes and those diaries and that sort of slowly progressed into the book.

I set out really to clear Sheila's name because what I was seeing in the press just bear no resemblance at all to the woman I knew and loved in terms of this series and the production.

I know that in addition to Carolyn Lee's exhaustive research, the series also relied really heavily on your book in Search of the Rainbow's End as a source.

How do you feel that that enriched and enhanced the authenticity of the production?

Well, I think it gave the inside view, which nobody else could have. I mean, apart from Jeremy and Julie, I'm the only person who's still alive who could tell that story. And there was the subtle elements I was involved in helping to get the interiors and everything right. So that created authenticity and personal tales of mine, which Carroll and they wouldn't have had the very intimate memories I had of the people who are involved, good and bad, positive and negative.

I'd love to talk a little bit about the way Sheila is depicted, but also your relationship in the series, because even though you two were not married at the time, you very much feel the warmth and the compassion and the support that you had for her. Did you feel like that was an accurate portrayal?

I think that was done very well, because although Sheila and I were divorced and the breakdown of our marriage was a personal thing, we just found it didn't work as a relationship. But she was always going to be the mother of my two sons. And when she wasn't well, I wanted the mother of my two sons to be as happy and secure as possible. So my devotion to her is unquestionable, really. She I love the dearly. We just couldn't live together.

I never stopped loving her. And then when I was writing the book, I still loved her. And I had to almost fall in love with her again to write the book with real honesty. I couldn't stand outside it and point the finger the way the press did, for example. They just were like a bunch of foul dogs tearing at her carcass. And that made me determined to tell the story of the real woman. And I think they picked it up very well.

How did you two meet? Do you remember the second you set eyes on her?

Yes, I do. I was sitting in a favorite pub in Hampstead and I don't know, we all ended up sitting on the same table together and just got chatting. And I just thought, well, this girl is amazing.

And I never imagined someone as beautiful as her would be talking to me. So that was kind of I suddenly got very brave when I met her. That makes any sense. And she was stunning.

In addition to being a model, you also describe her as having a kind of almost childlike vulnerability. In the book. You make parallels to Marilyn Monroe.

Yeah, she was very. Gullible and naive and not really aware of danger, whether it was a threat, whether it was she just saw the world in a very open, almost childlike way.

And that's a fragility that, as you say, you see in Marilyn Monroe and I think that Cressida picked up so beautifully was that fragility and how she took everything on face value and didn't see underneath things. Although there was a point before the shootings where she started to display incredible fear of her brother, which I found very weird because I hadn't seen Jeremy for many years since our divorce.

There is a foreshadowing moment in the first episode where there's a party in your flat, and she has an almost immediate reaction to seeing Jeremy across the crowded room.

Now she's just very frightened of him. But that party was one of the twins.

And I wanted to throw and I thought it was an opportunity to speak to Jeremy, to maybe talk his parents around into a different form of treatment for her, because I didn't think what the treatment should they had provided or they bought for her was working. So I thought I could get Jeremy as an ally.

When I asked her to phone him up to come to the party, she seemed reluctant to speak to him and she actually handed the phone to me. So I spoke to him. And then on the evening she avoided him quite a lot.

And then when she wanted to go home at the end, later in the party, I knew that I'd been drinking. I couldn't take her home. I could have called a cab. I said, well, perhaps your brother could take you because he's only just arrived. And she said, Will you ask him for me? It was just very strange. She was she was very, very frightened of him. So there must have been something going on in the family beforehand that I didn't know about, something threatening.

Why is my brother here? I. I told you I was coming from the. He's not often in town. This time he happened to be so. Slightly the trees and in terms of the way in which Sheila's parents, John and Neville, are portrayed, they seem very religious, very strict and judgmental, particularly Junn.

Is that in keeping with the dynamic you experienced?

Very much so, which is why I tried to get Jeremy to sort of back me up, because I tried talking to them many times about her treatment, about her relationship with him, and also being the voice box for the twins as well, because they were getting very upset by all her excessive religiosity. This is June, not Sheila. And the fact that she was constantly making them kneel and say prayers every moment she got an opportunity to and it was she was becoming quite malevolent.

And I had to draw a line under that. She basically thought she knew best and never being a loyal husband backed her up all the way. So I was feeling a bit stuck.

So that dynamic that you described, that was one that the boys, even though they were so young, they picked up on and actually kind of manifested it in artwork.

Yeah, I didn't see those drawings till long, long after the shootings because they actually did them and gave them to my mother. Had I seen them at the time it was put in the in the film, I never would have let them go to the film because they are so disturbing.

It was Daniel's drawings mainly that he he created the sequence of drawings which portrayed the farm as a malevolent place, and then the farm becoming granny and being even more malevolent. But there was almost that they were precognitive almost like he knew something was going to happen. And then there was a delightful sort of colourful drawings that Nicholas did. And again, they were very, quite astute and how they were portrayed, it's difficult to describe them really. It was only later on when I actually showed them to a New York drawing and another guy called Greg Firth, who was leading union, who worked with Elizabeth Kubler Ross, he just laid out the whole story, said they knew they were going to die.

And that really freaked me out, but now I can see it, there was one drawing that Nicholas did the day of the party and it was all about the party, lots of balloons and streamers and a table full of food.

And I was portrayed on one side of the table and they were portrayed on the other side of the table. And my feet were firmly on the ground and their feet were nowhere near the ground. It was like they were leaving. But Greg saw these drawings. He said, well, that's a sacrifice. And there's blood on the floor. The other things they said, it's like it's a sacrificial altar and they're leaving. And there's an element in the drawings that show them actually crossing to heaven.

He drew this four days before he died. That's incredible. They go I go into much more detail in the book. You have to remember, it's 35 years since this all happened.

I cannot imagine what you went through personally. And I should think that when people can't imagine that kind of trauma, that it's easier to sensationalize it or to, you know, fall into cliches. But the scene where you're told about the loss of your ex-wife and then the boys, it just felt like a knockout punch to the gut.

And Mark fell on the floor, which, you know, I was actually sitting down when they told me. But, yeah, it had dramatic impact. And they have to use those sorts of things, devices. But I'm sorry I interrupted you. No, no, no, no.

You described that impact emotionally as feeling like you were underwater.

Well, it was like this huge, heavy, suffocating blanket had been thrown over me and and everything became sort of paradoxical. It was like a slow motion, fast forward blur. Given the insight of hindsight, I can't imagine the emotions and grief that you must have processed in terms of having brought the boys to the farmhouse. Can we talk just a little bit about the time around, the actual event? Did you wrestle with a tremendous amount of guilt because you left them there, even though it was with their mother and grandparents?

I think like so many people who have been through this kind of trauma and you're the survivor, you do get survivor guilt.

And the thing that I beat myself up with a lot is, was if I was there, I could have saved them or could I had I still be married to Shield or I think Jeremy would have waited for me to be there, too, because he clearly knew that in his parents wills that everybody had to go if he was going to get the family estate. What I didn't know until later when I saw Nevilles and Jeunes Wills is that the twins had to reach the age of 25 before they could realize the estate.

So they were all in his way.

Do you think that Jeremy had knowledge of that?

Yes, I'm sure of it. And there's also suggestions from talking to Neverwas secretary and to June sister's husband that he was planning to make changes to his will.

He was going to have to do something very unpleasant that he didn't want to do. And that's all I've heard. So one can read things into that. We will never know exactly. But the suggestion is that he was going to change his world and write Jeremy out altogether and report him to the authorities for something or other that he knew about. And of course, Sheila's mental state would have made her the ideal target, honestly, on some levels in terms of making her the suspect and a victim.

Well, it was very convenient for him because it was at a time when very few people had any real understanding of mental health issues.

We were all new to it. So as far as the police were concerned, Jeremy was concerned. Everybody was concerned. She was just a nutter. She was doolally. I didn't understand it, but I knew I had to do something to help her. One thing I did notice was how much better she was when she wasn't didn't have any contact with June. But I think Jeremy also when he came to that party of mine, he didn't seem to know as much about it as I thought he would.

And so he was milking me for information about the illness. So obviously, the parents hadn't talked to him about it, but I think he saw it as a wonderful opportunity to sort of turn things around to his advantage. Well, definitely in that time period, too, there wouldn't have been very open discourse about mental health or mental illness.

No, and they basically went to a psychiatrist that had treated June for her own problems and they thought he was the best thing to do.

You know, went to a private psychiatrist and and paid for him to treat Scheeler as well. I've looked into the whole thing a lot more and discovered there's lots of other options. And my girlfriend, Heather, had some personal insight into the processes of psychotherapy. So she was trying to get me to help Sheila because she was another one who was very concerned about the impact of the illness on the twins.

Did you agree with the diagnosis of schizophrenia in terms of Sheila?

I didn't understand it very much at that time, nor did pretty much anybody else who's basing on my experience of what I was seeing. And I was seeing a woman who was.

Feeling imprisoned by.

Her family's beliefs about her and again, was when I was speaking to this guy, Greg, first, and he looked at all the drawings and ask a few questions about the relationship between me, the twins, Sheila's parents, and he said to me that it's highly unlikely she was schizophrenic, that she was carrying June's illness for the entire family.

She was the scapegoat in many ways. And that fits in with the fact that when I kept seeing her away from her mother and father, kept her away from the farm, she started to get better. And on top of that, I was so help to support her with finding her birth mother because she was adopted and her first contact with the birth family was with her uncle, her birth mother's brother. They became very close and he's still a very dear friend.

When she actually met her mother for the first time, the real mother, the biological mother, it was like. Ray of sunshine, she's suddenly blossomed and all the weight and the woes of the relationships and the family and ethics lifted from her shoulders. I'd never seen her look so happy in her life as if there was no illness at all. From Ridley Scott, director of Alien and Blade Runner comes his next sci fi masterpiece, raised by Wolves, the epic new HBO Mack's original series that The Wall Street Journal calls utterly absorbing Earth is on the edge of extinction.

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Tell me about the attempted release of the nude photos of Sheila and when you found out that Jeremy was behind it?

Well, he actually didn't release the photographs because thankfully, the tabloid press that he was trying to sell them to didn't want to know. But they decided to make a story of it anyway, that he was trying to sell naked photographs of her because he thought he could make a lot of money. Photographs he was talking about that he'd found in his mother's bureau were ones that she had found in Sheeler's. And there were pictures that she and I took of each other the day after her first pregnancy was terminated.

And we've been out sunbathing in the field and he made it. There were porn photographs and that she had been doing porn work as well.

And that was not the case from Sheila's modeling portfolio. Told you, you can see every detail.

This is definitely your sister, Bambam. I should know, Michael, we came to you first.

But, you know, the other papers were wantonness. So if you don't know, this is definitely of interest to us.

How much interest or how much you asking? 20000.

And those photos are actually going back to that day, that was a huge issue with June as well. Yeah, yeah.

Because when she had that termination, June, and never decided it was time, we didn't have a relationship anymore, you know, trying to do that.

We know better thing she had to get away from the farm, how she couldn't bear the way her mother was being around. So she said, let's go and somebody that's a lovely day. So we went a few fields away from the house where her mother couldn't see us. So she came looking for us in her car, then came bumping angrily along the across a field towards us where we were both laying naked and got very, very out of hands and out of control.

And then when we got back to the farmhouse in private, she was saying to she was she was the devil's child and really laying into her in a merciless way. And I think that was the beginning of some of the damage that started to impact on Sheila.

And that was even before you two were married. You ended up getting married. Did you ever feel truly welcomed or part of that family dynamic?

I was there. I was tolerated. I was not what they would have chosen for their daughter. I think they would have liked her to marry a young farmer. There was always a time that never was trying to get me interested in farming. And he were walking around the land and talking about this crop in that crop, the cattle or whatever. And also I was working class and that didn't really fit with their ideas and an artist and an artist.

And Sheila and I were very much in love with each other.

And she got pregnant again very quickly, but then miscarried because she was worried when she had the termination that it would damage her and it did weaken her internally and she was unable to carry a child naturally. So after two miscarriages, the third intended pregnancy had the twins and they applied a stitch to help the cervix support the pregnancy. And that's how we got the boys. But it would become such an obsession with her to be a mother once she'd lost the first one at her mother's instigation.

And she just the obsession almost became something that drove us apart because it wasn't about us anymore. It was about her need almost to prove herself capable of something that June wasn't. That's my take on it. Whether I'm right or not, I don't know.

And did that create a dynamic in terms of June and Neville overstepping their bounds in terms of your marriage and the grandkids?

Very much so, yeah. They thought they could do anything and what they didn't realize when they actually did want to try and take custody of the children, there was a point to and to take them away for a weekend.

And we had other plans and she tried to overrule me and I said, no, they are staying with me. She didn't think I had.

And there was no real respect for me. She was just snowballed. Everybody really. They're trying to find the right words. You know, it's just like being hit by a steamroller sometimes in terms of that dynamic, it seems, at least in the series and your book, that Jeremy had a deep insecurity about his parents attention and a need for validation. Do you think he was ultimately threatened by their interaction with Sheila and by the boys?

There's no doubt that children never were very fond of Sheila and the boys. They loved them to bits, never in particular. I think she had a very good relationship with her father. Jeremy, on the other hand, had a lot more friction that he didn't want to be a farmer, but he was being coerced into becoming a farmer.

You know, they wanted to pass on the business to their son.

But he I think he you know, he had seen his father able to be very generous with meals and drinks and things like that and basically never worked very, very hard to achieve what he achieved.

Jeremy wasn't willing to do that same hard graft and resented any sort of parental control.

Now, I know most teenage boys do, but it seemed to be deeper than that and making him insecure. Yes, probably.

Did some of that, do you think, stem from the fact that he was adopted? I think so. Apparently when he went to trace his parents, everyone was trying to make out that they had they come from terrible backgrounds that children, Jeremy. And it turned out that Sheila's experience of finding her birth family was very positive. Jeremy apparently found his family and they they worked at Buckingham Palace. His father and mother both worked at Buckingham Palace. So when they were pregnant with him, they put him up for adoption.

When he found them, they didn't want to know. And apparently they had since married. So they had become a couple that married, become a married couple, had children, and they didn't want to know about the one they put up for adoption. So I think that was going to be devastating for him. And then there's going to be enormous resentment towards Sheila and the twins for the happy outcome for them and the awful outcome for him. Going back to the series, though, I know that the book was very cathartic for you, was being involved with this series cathartic as well?

I was kind of irritated that it was happening at all, but I knew it had to. And I was very keen that if it was going to happen, it had to be done well and by the right people, I knew the right people were doing it.

I think it's enabled me to draw a line under it fully, because as a result of that, I went back to the original book to republish it and realized that it always felt a little unfinished. So I wrote two more chapters which cover the last 25 years. So in that sense, it's cathartic because I was able to tell the story of how that event has impacted on the people who are now in my life, those who are not even on my horizon.

At the time it happened, which is my wife and my daughter, I would been wonderfully supported by both of them.

But I needed to talk about the whole issue of how do you tell a five year old she had once had two brothers who have been killed and for her to still feel safe in the world? There are lots and lots of questions which it threw up, which I needed to address and the choices I made since then. So I was able to wrap the whole thing up in that respect. And I think that's where there was a catharsis.

I've read that you never want to be considered a victim, never in these events.

I always think it's a choice. We are victimized by situations, events that happen in life.

But the role of a victim is a choice. I think you can actually embrace victimhood. And I've encountered a lot of people who fiercely defend their right to be a victim. But it just didn't sit well with me because I think that one can go far beyond that. And once you just sit with the role of victim, you kind of limit your life completely. Whereas I said, no, that's not me, I can't do that.

And in a way is open so many doors that I've been able to reach out and help other people who are struggling with similar issues of loss and trauma and convince them that they don't have to go that route. There are a lot of organizations that feed on victims through good intentions. They want to help people.

And I didn't want to be fed off by anyone makes any sense.

So, yeah, the series was cathartic. It was. They enabled me to draw a line under the story. Hopefully this will be the last interview I ever do about it.

Well, I'm honored. We did a we did a kind of a press launch day for the series, which I got involved with. And they asked me, how do you feel about the series? And I said, I wish it had never been made, but I'm glad it has and it's been done.

Well, we spoke with Paul Whitington, the director, and he said that he would not have been a part of this had it not gone forward with your blessing.

And I think Chris is the same with that. Chris Mercer is he said I couldn't have done the story justice without your involvement, but I think every person involved had enormous respect for the project. Everybody I spoke to said that they'd never been on a set that was so harmonious that.

It was almost like they're on hallowed ground that they were having to do this very, very carefully and lovingly and I've made some great friends out of it.

I can't imagine, though, that even though it was handled in such a respectful and honestly, the word that comes to mind is a delicate way that to sit down with your now wife and daughter and watch it must have been daunting.

It was difficult. Sally came to watch my we went to a private screening. There's just the two of us sitting in a room watching six episodes and she'd never read the book.

She's not wanted to go much into my past life, understandably, but she sat with it and made some interesting comments and things that she never realized happened and so on.

But they have been enormously supportive.

And I was very aware and my daughter came along to a cast and crew screening and I said, oh, I'm so sorry, this has had to be part of your life. Then she turned to me and she said, Dad, you're the strongest man I've ever met and probably ever will meet. And that completely blew me away. That's the antithesis of a victim, so that must have been confirmation brought tears to my eyes. Do you feel that the series did justice to not only the essence and the truth of the events that occurred, but also in depicting the real life people who were part of them?

I think it did pretty well going through the various characters. Freddy Fox as Jeremy is scarily like him.

When I met Freddy before he had his hair dyed and everything.

My first meeting with him, I just saw he had a real insight into the man and his personal experiences of people like Jeremy, and he was able to apply that.

But I knew from that moment on the day that he was really going to be the right person to play Jeremy. That was one of the most important characters. Mark Stanley. Lovely. Nothing like me at all when I was 32. But that's great. Doesn't matter. Cressida When I saw Cressida playing Sheila at that time of Sheila's life, that was also scarily real for me.

I was quite shocked when I first saw her and never were well portrayed. Mark Eddie as Stan Jones, nothing like Stan. Stan was tall and thin, but Mark captured Stan so beautifully and such a great performance from him.

Generally, the people really did capture the essence of those people I knew.

I can only assume, Colin, that there was a tremendous amount of personal responsibility. You felt once you agreed to be a part of the series in terms of really doing justice to Sheila and the boys in terms of how they were depicted. Are you at peace with that? Do you feel that you've been able to accomplish what you set out to accomplish when you agreed to be a part of the series?

I think I had to acknowledge the restrictions of simplification for dramatic purposes and that they couldn't cover the whole story. Such a complex story and even six TV hours.

So it has been simplified a lot for dramatic purposes, but they covered the forensic evidence meticulously. The story had to be modified and simplified a lot to fit it in, and some events got moved around, which is a little frustrating at times. There were elements that I would have loved to have seen in there, but my big concern was not being portrayed as a victim. But initially they had to work from those stereotypes, Jeremy, as a sort of slightly malevolent presence, who is seducing this man who just lost his family.

But the strength comes out the mark. He brings it out very well at the point with with the twins funeral. And he stands up to everybody and says, right, I'm not putting up with this. And the strength starts to come out and the transition has to happen. And as Freddy said to me, they had to be a contrast between Colin and Jeremy in the casting.

So somebody who I might have chosen myself, who is a lot more like me as a 32 year old, would have been too much like Freddy. So there are good reasons.

But I think on the whole, I think it worked very, very, very well. It achieved what I hoped it would achieve. But what I think I most liked about the whole thing when I saw it was it was the phrase I like is admirably restrained. It's left the viewer to do all the work. And I think that's unusual for true crime drama.

And at the end of the day, what do you hope that people will take away from your story and the series?

I think they will take away viewers of courage.

Of my character, of the less senior police officers, of going against the tidal wave of opinion and that it is possible to stand up to the Giants, and I think giving me the last word was.

A lovely gift, in a way, I think it does give people some sense of hope. There have been times over the past months when I thought I've been condemned myself. To a life of hatred, and I knew that hating like that in the end to kill me, but now with this result, I do feel maybe. I'm going to new beginning, not because Jeremy's been found guilty, I can't take any pleasure in that. But because the truth has been spoken and Sheila's name has been cleared.

That brings us to the end of Episode two, I want to thank Colin Cofell for coming on the podcast and talking so frankly and candidly about events, which must still be incredibly painful to talk about. I can't express how appreciative I am to have had him take the time to give so much of himself and his past to this episode.

Next week, I'll be talking to Carol Lee, writer of the 2015 book that shares the same name as the HBO series and upon which much of the series was based. A highly regarded biographer and author, Carol has previously written extensively about the story and tragedy of Anne Frank, but also about another one of Great Britain's most notorious crimes, the Moors murders. We'll talk about why she was so drawn to the White House farm case, her methods of researching it, and the deeply disturbing evidence that turned the seemingly open and shut case on its head.

The murders at White House Farm, the podcast is a production of Biomax and I Heart Radio hosted by me Laurinburg Pachuco. The podcast is produced by Ethan Fix, well written and researched by Mischa Perlman and engineered, edited and mixed by James Foster. If you haven't already subscribed, rated or reviewed the murders at White House Farm, the podcast, please do so at the I Heart radio app, Biomax, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And of course, be sure to watch the series itself on HBO Biomax with all episodes available to stream now.