Will robots one day be capable of raising human children as their own? I'm Holly Fry. And as the host of the companion podcast to HBO, Max's new show, Raised by Wolves, I'm speaking with leading scientists and historians to answer some of the very real questions posed by this mind blowing sci fi series from Ridley Scott Stream raised by Wolves now on HBO. Max and subscribe and listen to Raised by Wolves, the podcast on the I Heart radio app, HBO, Max Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, I'm Amy Nelson. And I'm Sam Ettus. We're the host of Eyharts newest podcast. What's her story with Sam and Amy? We both have our own businesses and between us we have seven children. And since the moment we met, we've been sharing our stories with each other. The thing is, we all know the stories of industry titans like Bezos and jobs, but the stories of women, they remain incomplete. We ask questions no one else even touches.

We are not afraid to get personal. So listen to what's her story with Sam and Amy on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Welcome to the Pectin Massacre, a production of I Heart Radio and Katie Studios' Episode eight. Truth be revealed. Over the course of seven episodes, we have examined the details of the murders of eight members of the rodent family, the investigation that was launched in their wake and what led up to the arrests of six members of the Wagner family.

Now we're going to look at where the case stands and what lies ahead. Next week's episode, burning questions on Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie's studios with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane.

When we left off last week, it was June 26, 2019, and Frederica Wagner was in the defendant's chair in a Pike County courtroom. She was facing charges of obstruction of justice and perjury in connection with the Rowden murders. Here's Federico's Néstor defending her aunt's claims. First, the prosecutors falsely believe the bulletproof vests were purchased before the road and homicides. Both sides know that it is not true. They were, in fact, purchased on May the 7th, 2016, 15 days after the date of the road homicides.

So that's to prove it. We know that there's like receipts, right? Yep. Got receipts. Got we have everything. Second, she guessed and thought that she bought them from Amazon. Now why they made a big deal about what what origin they came off the Internet. She ordered them off the Internet. Whenever you go on the Internet, a bunch of places come up, usually Amazon's the first thing that comes up. She did that a lot, but they made a big deal about it.

So they went back through her books and they found out that she did buy them. But it was it from Amazon. It was eBay.

But criminal defense attorney Mike Allen told Jeff that Frederica statements are a much bigger deal than Terry thinks.

Well, obviously, when you have a situation like this and someone involved with the people that are charged makes a purchase of two bulletproof vests, whether it's from eBay or Amazon, it's something that the prosecution would be interested in. And, you know, she apparently was before the grand jury when she misrepresented, if you will, where she bought these things from. And it's it's relevant and and also to I think it would be fair to say that the prosecution probably wanted this put all of these charges put on her to have a little bit of leverage with her to.

Do you think that her explanation of just saying, oh, I don't remember, I got it confused as an attorney, do you think that makes someone look more guilty?

Yeah, it does, especially something like this. And I know she's elderly, but she certainly seems like she's pretty sharp. But it's a rather big event in most people's lives. If they purchase bulletproof vests online or any way you purchase them, you would think that you would remember where you purchased them from. So, yeah, it doesn't make her look good at all. Ultimately, Fredricka, Wagner's lawyer filed receipts that proved she made the purchases 15 days after the slayings, this led the defense team to turn over potential evidence as required to the prosecution, too late to meet the criteria for a speedy trial.

They dismiss the charges against Frederico Wagner while reserving the right to charge her again.

Mike Allen broke down.

What all this means with respect to the speedy trial statute, it's generally you have to bring a felony case within 270 days from the indictment. I think the prosecution was running out of time.

So strategically, I think they decided to dismiss it with the option and the right to refile it again if that becomes necessary.

So she could get charged with the same crimes again.

Oh, yeah, they were dismissed without prejudice, which means that the state can refile them at a later date.

But it seems that Frederico Wagner doesn't foresee that happening, he or she is speaking to the press after the hearing, trust in the Lord with all your heart mean not to your own understanding in all your ways. Acknowledge him and he will direct your path. And as my attorney will tell you, it was just missed because I was innocent. They had no evidence against me. I never lied about anything.

Fredricka, Wagner's freedom validates what DeRay has believed all along, she has never in her life done anything wrong.

She's not capable of it. And, you know, if she thought that her kids would have done something bad, she would have recommended that they turn themselves in for anything.

I mean, she she loves she she loves by what she says, she loves sport.

Which is what? Well, she gives all the glory to God.

Angela, Billy Jack and George Wagner were charged with aggravated murder. Angela Wagner's mother, Rita Jo Newcome and Billy Wagner's mother, Frederica, were both charged with obstruction of justice and perjury. Newcome was also charged with forgery. All six of them pled not guilty. And our justice system presumes innocence until guilt is proven.

But one thing that doesn't help, Fredricka, Wagner's case is a revelation by the prosecution at a pretrial hearing for her son Billy in 2020, the state submitted evidence showing that the night before Fredrica testified before the grand jury in 2018, she had searched the Internet for information about penalties for perjury.

Here's our anonymous Wagner family relatives. She shared her thoughts with Jeff.

Do you think that his mom, Billy's mom, Frederica, do you think she had any involvement?

I believe that it I believe she could have. Yes, I believe that she definitely. I don't believe she tried to stop it. You know, I don't believe that she I believe is anything she probably would have encouraged it and her son to do what he did. Others, like Rowden, family friend Stefan, thinks that Frederico wasn't just involved in the murders, but could possibly have orchestrated the whole thing.

I don't take her for a dumb woman at all. She's a businesswoman. She's probably shrewd. She's the head, the monarch, you know, so the monarch is usually the one that that has their thumb on everybody. She's wanted the control over everything.

Seems to me like. To investigative journalist Jody Barr, the alleged involvement of Frederico Wagner upends conventions of who actually could be capable of being involved in murder.

I think this case, if it ended today, as it is alleged, I don't think there is anybody on this planet that could look at those people and say those people look like a family who could slaughter a human beings if you ever thought you knew what a mass murderer looked like. I think this case in Pike County is showing you have no idea.

So here we are four years later, two of the six defendants are free and four others are in prison facing death penalty charges, accused of killing eight members of their own family. Here's Stephanie, followed by Jeff. As it stands now, the trials for Billy, Angela, Jake and George Wagner are slated to begin in the next few months that are really understand this case and where it stands and what's to come. We'll have to examine some of the most important points in the 5000 pages of discovery documents that list the prosecution's evidence.

There are more than thirty two thousand files of evidence in this case. One of the exhibits in the prosecution's arsenal is related to Billy Wagner and his copy of the 1999 movie The Boondock Saints. The film is about two brothers in Boston who exact a form of vigilante justice by murdering mobsters and other criminals. It's extremely violent and over-the-top, but the big takeaway for this case is that the brothers in the film use silencers on their guns, a method that members of the Wagner family are accused of using to execute the rodents.

As we covered in the last episode, a homemade silencer was discovered at a farm once owned by Jake and George Wagner. But DeRay thinks the connection is tenuous at best. I read that and I had to laugh. I had to work so hard. OK, so you have to remember that this was a very organized, brilliantly done execution. This is something that you wouldn't learn on a DVD. I'm buying with a military background. Navy SEALs, I mean, whoever did it was brilliant.

They're professional. These people are not professional killers. Mike Allen told Jeff that the DVD could be a building block in the state's case, you can't watch a movie and learn how to wipe out an entire family. That seems like a stretch. What is your take on that?

Yeah, I don't think they could introduce it for the for the proposition that that's how the Wagners learned how to do that. I think if the state introduced it or attempted to get it introduced, it would just be kind of peripheral to like, hey, you know, somebody in that family watched that movie or that movie or bought that movie. And it's a movie about vigilante justice. But I would certainly cry, at least because apparently in this case, the allegation is silencers were used and they were used in that movie as well.

So it would be one piece of evidence that they could add on to other evidence, be a piece of evidence if admitted that they could talk about in closing argument. So, well, not determinative in any way, shape or form. It is evidence that could be helpful to the state.

There's a mountain of other evidence, the prosecution plans on using one that stands out as an Excel spreadsheet that contains 519 entries of messages about child custody.

I spoke with McGowan about it.

Another piece of evidence that's been talked about are these Excel spreadsheets.

Apparently, they had hundreds of entries of cataloging the messages about child custody and Facebook screenshots regarding it. What does that tell you?

Well, it tells me that could be part of the motive in this case. And that's pretty strong evidence of motive if they're keeping all these things and screenshots. And it seems that they were kind of obsessed with his desire to get custody and control. It would be circumstantial, but circumstantial evidence sometimes can be very strong evidence. Just because the evidence is circumstantial doesn't mean that it's not good evidence and strong evidence. But, you know, it's like you're dropping, you know, pebbles into a pond.

Every little pebble makes a ripple and, you know, you build on those things. And at the end of a day, at the prosecution does it right. Every little bit helps with respect to building a case.

The discovery documents also include information about a person that some speculate could be an informant. Jody Barr told us about trying to track down this source, the name of the informant has not been published, which is why it's bleeped in his interview.

Only thing I know is. That was a name given very early on who I was told did business with Chris Rowden, I was never able to even find it. This person exists. I guess they did. This person really does exist. But when I was given a list of names of people who could have potentially either been involved in this, knew about this, this is one person I tried to track down and find over at Sciuto County, which is just across the line from Pike.

And I was never able to find this person, but I was told that this person knew Christina intimately. As far as you know, they were together a lot and they were in some business ventures together. But again, I was never able to find this person or to verify anything that was ever told to me about them.

Prosecutors for the case claim another confidential informant told them of a specific meeting at Frederico Wagner's home, it occurred with the other accused family members and allegedly included talk of, quote, taking revenge on a special agent. Then Attorney General Mike DeWine and Pike County Sheriff Charles Reeder. The revenge was allegedly planned if her family was arrested. Jodie Power dissected these claims with Jeff. It just seems so careless that the people accused of this would be bringing outsiders into a home, although we don't know who the confidential informant is, but that they would risk getting caught if they were so skillful in pulling this off that they would bring outsiders in to have discussions like this where there no one admitting it, essentially.

But secondly, you're talking about taking hits out on the chief law enforcer in Pike County and the chief law enforcement for the state of Ohio.

But that's an interesting point, that it doesn't really compute that if they were like ninjas and they could do this elaborate crime, why would they be so sloppy then to have these conversations with with other people? When I see confidential informant in this sentence and a part of Bigos, I wonder if one of the Wagners has rolled over and is helping. This investigation is still something. I know there bits been of plea deals already made here, some charges dismissed.

But you've got to wonder who is this informant? Because if it's a member of the Wagner family and I think that's a twist no one saw coming. Let's stop here for a quick commercial break. We'll be back in a moment. Will robots one day be capable of raising human children as their own? I'm Holly Fry. And as the host of the companion podcast to HBO, Max's new show, Raised by Wolves, I'm speaking with leading scientists and historians to answer some of the very real questions posed by this mind blowing sci fi series from Ridley Scott Stream raised by Wolves now on HBO IMAX and subscribe and listen to Raised by Wolves, the podcast on The Hurt radio app HBO, Max Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, it's Laura Wasser.

You may know me best as a divorce attorney and the founder of the online divorce service. It's overeasy. I'm Johnny Raines and this is the It's Overeasy podcast. All's fair for me. The aspect of marriage that's troubling is that it's a contract that's governed by the state. And I don't want the state to have control over my personal affairs. But if there's anyone in the world who might be able to convince me otherwise, it would be our guest today.

Welcome to All's Fair.

Marlo Thomas and his excellence, Phil Donahue, that also I was talking to somebody the other day, Marlo, and they told me that before. Phil, you dated Henry Kissinger and David Geffen, is this correct? Well, I went out to dinner with him, let's say that. OK, all right, fine.

All's fair with Laura Wasser on the I Heart radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. The discovery documents also have two thousand nine hundred eighteen pages related to DNA evidence. Mike Allen spoke to us about the role DNA could play in the case.

I can tell you from dealing with DNA evidence, both as a prosecutor and as a defense attorney, that's not good news for the defense. If they've got almost 3000 pages of DNA evidence, evidence that would have been sent to the lab and comes back, they've got to have something. I mean, I would be shocked if they didn't have some credible DNA evidence against at least one of these defendants, probably more of them. That's bad news for the defense.

There's just no way of getting around it because DNA evidence, if extracted properly and analyzed properly, properly, it's pretty much lights out if they did it correctly. So I think that's problematic for the defense.

Here's Stephanie, followed by Jeff, in addition, the report also lists 1170 crime scene photos, cyber forensic reports of the Wagners, their cell phones and their computers, and hundreds of pages, citing reference to the recovery of firearms and ballistic testing. In fact, at the pretrial hearing for George Wagner just a few weeks ago, we got a glimpse into some of the evidence they have. So this hearing was for a motion the defense was making to get George Wagner, the eldest son, released from prison on bond.

In response, the prosecution laid out some of the evidence they have against George Wagner, basically as an argument to keep George behind bars. One of the lead detectives on the case testified that he and his team have real ballistic evidence connecting firearms used in the homicides with guns believed to be owned by the Wagners, including a 22 caliber long rifle, a 40 caliber handgun and a 30 caliber gun.

Prosecutors also pointed to evidence that shoe prints from the exact same shoes purchased at Wal-Mart by the Wagners to allegedly frame Dana Rodin's brother. You remember James Manly were found in dried blood at two of the crime scenes and get this, in fact, receipts for those exact same shoes. There are very specific Wal-Mart athletic shoe were found during a search of the Wagner property in 2016. There are also over 8000 recorded statements from interviews with George Wagner, who claim there really was no issue regarding custody between Jake Wagner and Hannah Roden over their daughter Sophia.

And that, we know, is just not true. Right.

So with all of this, the Wagner still continue to declare their innocence. Is it really possible that they did, in fact, have nothing to do with it? Well, recently, one of the Wagner's lawyers made statements to the press saying that a loose custody arrangement between Jake Wagner and Hannah for their daughter, Sophia, was being formalized by another attorney in Ohio at the time of the killings. But due to the fact that Hannah was murdered, the agreement was never formalized.

So it's not permissible in court.

I spoke with Delray about her second cousin, Jake Wagner, to see if we could get any more information on the custody arrangement between him and Hannah, wrote.

Do you know anything about like they were trying to get custody of Sophia before the murders? I don't know anything about that. OK. Yeah, I was just curious.

Yeah, because you hear a lot about that. Yeah. I never heard you know, I talked to my aunt a lot. That was that was never mentioned. So do you think that that is fabricated as well? If I'm hearing you right, I don't believe that it has anything to do with it. I don't believe there was a custody battle. I think that's another made up lie. What makes you say that? Because I never heard anything about it.

I mean, somebody did it. But we don't know who and we are for sure, it wasn't the Wagner family. It's a tragedy and most of the people that I talked to, they're all thinking it's drug related. Something that had to do with drug trafficking, we don't know if it's who knows, it's a mystery.

We found it strange for a woman who covers her family's case closely not to know anything about the custody issues that other family relatives disclosed to us before, even stranger is something else that was presented at George Wagner's most recent pretrial hearing.

Again, he's the eldest son. Prosecutors pointed to a screenshot of a message from Hannah wrote in to one of her friends. In this message, she's discussing the Wagners attempt to force her to sign forged custody documents, the ones that we've talked about in previous episodes.

Now, get this, the screenshot was found on the Wagner family computer seized during the investigation and again, allegedly the Wagners got it by hacking into Hannah Rodin's Facebook account.

The message is nothing short of chilling. It reads and I quote, I won't sign papers ever. It won't happen. They'll have to kill me first and quote. It does seem clear that the Wagners were sort of obsessed with custody and control of Sophia. And in speaking with people close to the family, this actually wasn't the first time custody became an issue. Christina Howard's sister, Tabi, was married to George Wagner for several years. The two had a son together but eventually split up.

According to Christina, following their divorce, the Wagner family tried to force Tavey into handing over custody of their son. This is Christina's recollection of events.

She spoke to Jeff about it somehow or another. Angela, like, manipulated her with different papers to sign and stuff, and they had to have the signing over the rights and custody to George, where they had money for expensive lawyer Tabitha. And and so they had custody up until, you know, they got caught and stuff for the crimes.

Do you think that she was obsessed with having custody of all of her grandkids? Oh, yeah, definitely. Why do you say that? Tavey like whenever she would try to reach out to George, like, hey, can I come visit my son? And Angela would get on there and be like, oh, he's not your son anymore. Would tell be like, oh, you might. He gave birth to him but I'm his real mother because I take care of him and all these just nasty things.

And Christina told us that in the aftermath of Tabi in Georgia's custody battle, Hannah Rowden contacted Tabi for advice on how to deal with their own custody issues with the Wagners.

I knew that Hannah was struggling to keep custody of Sofia because she went to my and my sister were pretty close. And, you know, Tavey straight up told her like a if they present you with papers, do not sign them. Give them to a lawyer first. Let the lawyer read it over and proceed from there because they will try to steal custody of Sofia, even if they are trying to act like their understanding. And all of a Saud's do not listen to them because they will screw you over.

Christina's account of George Wagner and Tabby's dispute, in addition to everything we've heard about Jake Wagner and Hannah Rowden, clearly lays out a pattern of deceit and control when it comes to custody. But when Jeff asked directly about George and Tabby's custody battle, she soundly refuted Christina's claims. I want your side of this. People say that like George had a custody situation where he tried to get custody of his son, Jake, maybe a similar situation. People are saying that, like, Angela was just obsessed with getting the kids and wanted all the control of the children.

You know, I don't I don't.

I don't believe that. I don't believe that. I know she loved him. But I don't believe she is obsessed. I think she is a normal grandmother and she was an excellent role model. Well, we don't know all the details of George Waggner and Tabby's custody case. There is evidence that the Wagners did deceive Hannah Rowden by trying to convince her to sign fake custody documents here. Stephanie, followed by Jeff, It seems being locked up in prison hasn't even stopped the Wagners for one second from trying to manipulate those closest to them.

As we discussed earlier in September of 2019, Angela Wagner tried to discuss case strategy, even influence testimony from prison. Prosecutors also claim that Angela Wagner called her mother, Rita Newcome. She's the one that's accused of forging those custody documents. She called her several times and basically asked her not to testify against the family and also told her how to explain away the custody documents that she's accused of forging. As a punishment, a judge suspended Angela Waggoner's in jail, phone and mail privileges, Mike Allen told us that this is just another blow for the defense, any criminal defense attorney that is doing their job.

And I'm sure every one of these criminal defense attorneys are doing their job. They tell their client from day one, do not under any circumstances discuss the case on the phone because you can guarantee that the conversations are being taped. Prosecutors can use those conversations. If the person is talking about strategy, makes some kind of admission, intimidates witnesses, the recording doesn't lie. And that could end up to be some pretty strong evidence against her at the end of the day.

George Wagner has also raised eyebrows for an odd request he made after five months in prison. He asked to be transferred from general population to solitary confinement. Usually solitary confinement is given to a prisoner who either is a threat to other prisoners or who may be in danger in the general population. Mike Allen told us that George had a different reason is stated.

Reason was that he wanted to be able to study the Bible in peace. That's a little unusual when inmates ask for solitary.

A lot of times, although they may not say it, they're asking for that because they've been threatened and, you know, they want to make sure that their is safe as they can be in jail. But when I read that, I kind of wondered, is that the real reason? I mean, you know, you just have to wonder what the motivation is.

So how does all this evidence add up? How strong is the state's case against Billy, Angela, Jake and George Wagner?

I'm a criminal defense attorney. I used to be a prosecutor. And as a criminal defense attorney, you know, I never say never as far as, you know, your chances in front of a jury. Having said that, the evidence sure seems strong and we don't know all the evidence and all we know is what's public. So the old adage that a prosecutor can indict a ham sandwich is true. But smart prosecutors don't indict cases that they don't think they can win beyond a reasonable doubt.

And I think Mike DeWine, who was in the driver's seat in this thing, there's no way he would have indicted this if he didn't think he could prove it or ultimately someone could prove it at the end of the day. Let's stop here for a quick commercial break. We'll be back in a moment. Hi, I'm Ali Wentworth. How do I grow a teenager in a pandemic? Well, that's exactly what I want to find out in my new podcast.

Go ask Ali. I'm asking experts to help me answer that question. For example, are quarantined teenage girls more apt to Instagram nude photos, or are they somehow going to end up on the dark web? Are teenagers getting ripped off by their new virtual education? And how do we deal with their overwhelming anxiety and uncertainty? And are they losing empathy? I'll be talking to experts and friends like my friend Brooke Shields. She'll reveal how her complicated sexual upbringing has influenced how she is as a mother to teenage girls.

It's a new world and how we raise these young humans in it determine our future. So let's share some real experiences with all new episodes releasing every other Thursday. Listen to go ask Ali on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Imagine this, you've been playing football for years, dreaming of going pro, and then it happens, life as you know, it changes with a phone call.

I finally got that call just through, you know, I'm ready. Go, go, go. This is Keegan Michael Key and welcome to Drafted.

This podcast series follows eight players as they enter the twenty 20 NFL draft. This is their real life as it unfolds in real time. And each player tells his own story unfiltered. I'm not a first rounder. I'm not even the top three rounder. This is something I've been dreaming about. I've been doing this for my son. We go behind the scenes before, during and after one of the biggest days of their lives, and we relive every detail from the players perspective.

Please join me on the first step in their journey to greatness. Welcome to Drafted. Listen to Drafted on the I Heart radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. We've been covering this case for over two years, and in that time we've examined not only the details of the eight murders themselves, but the multiple theories that have surrounded them. We looked into the speculation of a drug connection. Discoveries of the murder scenes are now advancing the theory that killings could be related to a drug cartel.

The Rodin's had a pretty sizable crop of marijuana plants on their property. So, you know, there were indications that they were involved in some drug deals and drug trade with marijuana.

We explored the rumors of small town revenge.

There had been reports of scuffles with other people in public in its message. And he's talked about, I'm going to break his fucking legs and not curb stomp his ass.

We also investigated a series of eerily similar killings.

We have had a double homicide for children left alive. This is very similar to the rodent case. We had heard that there were other people who were shot, No.9 execution style in their homes. And when you're looking at the Rowden case and then you see these other cases in a county that small, you start asking yourself, what the hell is going on? It doesn't make sense that this is happening there unless there is some sort of common denominator.

But in the end, it was some of the people who are closest to the rodents that were arrested for orchestrating the brutal, cold blooded massacre at the center of this case or members of the Wagner family, whom we believe the evidence will show conspired together to kill these eight people. As we struggle to make sense of the crimes, we've listened to the impassioned arguments of family members who insist that their relatives are innocent, our family joke is that there's no way that Betty Crocker in the Doughboy's could ever go to an extreme of murder.

Somebody did it. But what now?

We've heard first person accounts from relatives that support the primary motive in this case, Hala and Kate, with the little girl, there was a custody battle and Hannah was allowing Jake to see her. And it just set him off to the point where, Jake, he had made the comment that he were going to kill her. But there are some who are simply torn when the Wagners were arrested. You had your 50 50. You had people that said, yes, I knew that they did that.

And then you've got people that say there's no way those people did that. I don't think anybody will believe that. You know, a family could have put together such a tactical hit on another family that they had created life with. It's still too difficult to accept and too hard to believe.

Many in the Pickton area believe there is no doubt that the Wagners plotted this horrific killing spree.

People wanted to paint the sort of feud between the rodents and Wagners as something like Hatfields and McCoys doesn't make sense to me if they are innocent, because who else would do that?

Whether the Wagners are innocent or guilty doesn't change the fact that the lives of eight members of a revered local family, the rodent's, were taken on April 22nd, 2016. Dana Rowden, 37 year old mother, grandmother and nurse, living in her brand new home. Chris Rowden, 40 year old loving father and grandfather. Dana and Chris's oldest son, 20 year old Frankie Rowden. Frankie's fiancee, 20 year old Hannah Gilli, who is in bed with their six month old baby Rukia.

Frankie Rodin's three year old son, Brentley, both of whom were spared Hanami Rowden, 19 year old mother to two year old Sophia and her five day old newborn Kylie, also spared Dana and Chris, his youngest child, 16 year old Chris Junior, who had just gotten his driver's license. Christina's older brother. Forty four year old Kenneth Rowden, father of three. And his cousin, 38 year old Gary Rowden, who is staying with Chris Senior that night.

It is horrible to this day, and Dana and her family will never, never get to celebrate birthdays, you know, and have parties and get togethers and barbecues and stuff like that. It's it's it's terrible. It just really hurts my heart. In all this, it's sometimes easy to forget those whose lives were spared that fateful night, but who lost everything in the process, the Rowden children, its two families really have been destroyed.

And at the center of that tragedy is, you know, are these kids whose families are torn apart and lost.

So is the one that is losing the most at this point in her life because she's lost her mom's side of the family. She's lost her father's side of the family and she is in child protective custody or no one knows where she is. She has lost on both sides. She's lost both of her families. This is supposed to be happy for her. This is her childhood. The tragic legacy of the Rodin murders continues to loom over the town of Dayton, Ohio.

Whatever happened that morning on Union Hill Road know it impacted a lot more than just those eight people who were killed. I mean, you've got their family members and you've got people in that area. You're going to remember this forever. This is never going away. My family was a part of this horrible I mean, just absolutely awful after that. They are destroying this other family completely. They have changed the family's life for the rest of their lives so that then, you know, I'm like, well, you know, ours has changed as well.

You know, we get tortured daily with the thought of how our family could have done something like this. And we still have love for them. I do feel so terrible for the world and I have always wanted to be able to express how sorry I am. And just because we still love Angela and Jake doesn't mean that we are sorry for what they done on. With trials for Billy, Angela, Jake and George Wagner potentially just months away, the residents of the Pikes, an area sit in anticipation, awaiting an end to the most gruesome chapter in the town's history and a conclusion to Ohio's most notorious murder case.

I've been in the system for over 50 years, and that is extremely rare, that you got four people, four defendants facing the death penalty. What will happen is anyone's guess if they walk out of that courtroom without any convictions. I just can't imagine how the Rodin's go on in the public, too. I mean, how do you go on not knowing for sure exactly who did this? Oh, it's going to be broken hearted, it's going to be broken hearts.

I honestly think that that the Waggoner's is it's going to a mistrial, its search for the truth. And, you know, that old proverb from Shakespeare, the truth will out in the end. I believe that is it applies to this case. The mystery will be solved. The truth will eventually and inevitably be discovered. And it looks like that's the way they're heading. I, like everybody else, want to know I want to know how the story.

Reach out to us and our social media outlets with questions. We're on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter at Paten Massacre. We look forward to answering your questions in upcoming episodes. Pectin massacre's executive produced by Stephanie Lydecker and me, Courtney Armstrong, editing and sound design by executive producer Jared Asten Additional producing by Jeff Shane and Andrew Becker. The Python massacre is a production of I Heart Radio and Katy Studios. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

Hi, I'm Kristen Holmes. I've covered campaigns, Capitol Hill, the White House and everything Washington for CNN. But nothing tops the importance of this upcoming election and my job is to help you make sense of it all. Welcome to Election 101. For the next 10 weeks, we'll figure out the electoral process together. I'll talk to experts, historians and some of you will address the safety of and voting, inform you of deadlines and make sure you know all your options.

You'll learn why voter registration is different from state to state and even from person to person. I'll help you figure out how to watch the debates a little more closely and how to get a better read on what the candidates really stand for. Yes, this election year is different and this is a different kind of podcast. Election one. One was created to help you learn how to make the most of your vote this November. Listen to election one of one every Wednesday on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Paper Ghosts is a true crime podcast that investigates the search for the person responsible for the abductions of four missing girls in neighboring New England towns for more than 50 years. Each case has remain unsolved.

Every day is like being lost in limbo. I pray every day that we find Lisa so we can go on. It wasn't until this past year that things took an unexpected turn. Breakthrough answers to decades old questions and witnesses finally ready to talk. I don't think that's the first time I can describe what he's wearing. It's only a mile away. Jesus, Mary and Josephine. I hope that's brave for many of you know what I think it is? Listen to paper ghosts on the radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.