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The Rich Roll podcast tape, people, welcome to the show. Today's episode is brought to you by Roka, founded in a modest garage in Austin, Texas, by two of my fellow rock stars, Stanford swimmers, Rocha has created the world's finest performance gear and eyewear for anybody who is an athlete and needs prescription eyeglasses and sunglasses like I do historically. You've been kind of out of luck. There's just not much out there that's going to even work for running or riding a bike, let alone for team sports and forget about style.


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That's our OK. A dotcom slash rich roll roka dotcom rich roll for twenty percent off your order. OK, so today I'm back with another. I think it's our third edition of Roll On where I alongside my co-host Adam Skolnick, journalist, writer, environmentalist activists talk about various topical issues of interest and answer listener questions. Today I kick off the show with a few exciting announcements for you guys. Pretty pumped up about that.


We share ruminations on everything from Writer's Block Council culture to Kanye West and Alternative Health. We dissect the varying political ideologies of the wellness community. We explore the ways in which people are so easily swayed by the vicissitudes of the YouTube algorithm. Why we should all be on high alert when it comes to the media we consume. And then in the second part of the podcast, I answer some relatively philosophical audience questions on the subjects of finding purpose, how to better embrace mindfulness, maintaining goals, and how to navigate cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias.


I must say, I'm really enjoying this new format experiment. I hope you guys are as well. So without further ado, enjoy.


Everybody, welcome to the podcast, we're back with another episode of Roll On our Ask Me Anything format where me and my hype man, Adam Adam Skolnick break down a couple of topics. We take questions from the listeners, and the idea is just to be a little bit more contemporaneous and free form with this show.


So, Adam, how's it going?


It's going good, man. I've had it's been a crazy last couple of weeks. Yeah, well, you moved. Moved. We moved in the same building to a slightly bigger place because, you know, my wife is eight months pregnant, almost, I guess seven months. And through the seventh we're in the eighth month now. And so we moved to this place that is like so similar to the old place, but just like slightly different. It's like your mind, like in the same building.


Yeah. So your mind is like a skipped record. Usually when you move, you want to move to a radically different place. It's like easier to process. But in this case it's like slightly different. So it was it's like a trick mirror. We're living in a trick mirror, right? Well, like a parallel universe situation. You're living in a parallel universe.


Well, you're here today here. We're going to break it down before we get into it. I did want to make a couple announcements, big announcements I'm very excited about.


I have been hard at work for the last several weeks trying to put the finishing touches on a new book. It's been a while since I felt so super excited about it.


It's called Voicing Change. And essentially it's a beautiful coffee table art book that contains timeless wisdom from the podcast with layouts and excerpts from some of my favorite guests over the years, accompanied by beautiful photographs. And I'm so excited about it.


Super proud.


How many interviews project we're trying to figure out right now how many like we have, of course, like I can't put everybody in and this will probably be the first in what will be a number of volumes, because we've kind of got this down and we could put one out potentially every year. So this is just to be considered like the first one.


And of course, no matter how well I try to curate it, I'm sure I'll leave somebody's favorite guest out there.


But right now, I think we have about fifty excerpts in there with some essays that a few people have contributed. And it's going to be great. We don't have an official release date yet, but we're looking at around Thanksgiving time, hopefully coming upon printers and all of that. So yourself publishing this one. We are self publishing this one. Yeah. Congrats. And it's looking really beautiful. Can't wait to share more about it. But this you've been writing.


I've said anything on the podcast about it, but that's what I've been basically spending most of my time doing lately.


Yeah, you said you've been writing like 10 hours a day or like holed up into that. Well in in the office. Yeah.


But the problem is that I spent the better part of the the quarante, the complete dilatant until the deadline was just so overwhelming that I was put into a situation where I had to drop everything that I was doing and only write. And for whatever reason, I don't know what it is, man. Like it took that deadline and the fear of not having it done to get my ass in gear and get this thing finished.


That's what deadlines do. I know.


I wish I could be the person who just works on it two hours a day. But how long has it been since you've been, like, writing that intensively? Like, long time. A long time. You know, the first book. The last book book that I was finding. All right. Years ago. Right. I rewrote it a couple of years ago. But still, you know, that wasn't like creating a book out of whole cloth.


The cookbooks are are more like this project in that they're jigsaw puzzles where there's a lot of people involved, like I have a whole team of people who are working on this. So there's only aspects of it that are the written word. A lot of it is design and layout and all the like and curating, you know, how we want it to be presented.


But but, you know, I've done a fair amount of writing recently, so I'm excited about it. Yeah, that is exciting. Back in the back in the writing mode, we got the first time in a long time you got the muscle warmed up.


Do you find that like as you've started getting back into it, that you're finally finding a flow or that you find a flow? Or is it always is it always hard? Like how is that process for you? Well, what's interesting about that is I actually have have really had a hard time getting back into it for whatever reason. Like, I hate the word, you know, writer's block, but for reasons unbeknownst to me, it has been quite a challenge to just put my butt in the chair and do the thing in a way that I haven't experienced before in my life.


And I was starting to get concerned. Like, maybe I just am not into doing this anymore, or maybe I've lost my touch or maybe I'm getting old, and I had a discussion on the podcast with a neuroscientist recently, this guy, Andrew Kuperman, who's all about like how the brain works. And I laid this out for him until I was like, what is wrong with me? Because then once the deadline became real and I was able to, like, appreciate the gravity of the situation I'd created for myself and started working on it, now it's all I can think about, like everything else is a distraction.


I don't want to do anything but do this. And it made me think like, why, you know, why am I wired in this way? Like, yeah, that's part of my addictive nature, because, again, I'd like to be the person who just does it in a very balanced manner. But it's an immersive experience, you know. Yeah. Somebody who writes books all the time and is writing a book right now, you know, and you're in, you're like all in and it becomes your entire universe.


But I find it's always hard, you know, like I just finished the finally finished the first draft of this raw this Roger. I call that and call the first draft of the raw draft of this manuscript of this talking about a novel. It's a novel like Talk about imposter syndrome. I've had that the entire time, like, you know, like because I did write a novel before and that's what got me an agent. But we didn't sell it.


And but this time it's not even nothing about my life. It's not semiautobiographical. I found one was. So it's it's it's it's challenged me in ways. And it was I was also avoiding it. I always had these reasons why I shouldn't start it, you know, like, yeah, I didn't have the research done. I didn't have time to do it because of this. That the other thing. And then when quarantine came with Jonathan Franzen.


Exactly. And then there's that.


Well, I know I'm not Jonathan Franzen. Don't worry, spoiler alert.


But yeah. So finally getting that done. But like each almost every day, finally towards the end, once you get to the point, you can see the downhill to the finish line, it becomes a little easier. But like it was hard almost every day. And what helped me was that Stephen King interview with in The New York Times magazine, David marches as it marches and marches, know he does these great. I think he's the best interviewer in print media.


And he used to be in New York magazine. Now he's at the Times magazine. And Stephen King was he asked him is does it always do you know when you have, like, a great book on your hands when you're writing as they always feel terrible? Yeah. And if that's Stephen King saying, that's very comforting. It's very it is very comforting. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.


I'm trying to get Steven Pressfield on the podcast. Have you read War of Art? No. Turning pro. I haven't. Oh, my goodness. Those are the manuals for unlocking all of this stuff.


Yeah, yeah, yeah. You should definitely check that. I need to. He's the dude when it comes to that stuff and he lives in Malibu.


I've been gone back and forth with them. Oh really. Oh you'll get him on the shows. Yeah.


Yeah that's perfect. The other the other announcement that I wanted to make is that we're right now contemplating some version of a subscription service for the things that we do here. And I put a survey up on the Facebook group page for the podcast. So for those of you who don't know, there's a Facebook group rostral podcast. You can find it on on Facebook.


I'll put a link in the channels to that with a few questions, because it's something that we're putting a lot of thought into. And if and how we do it is going to be very much dependent upon all of your feedback and input. I don't want to do anything that that isn't going to, you know, satisfy the kind of things that the audience is looking for from me. So excited about the work that we're doing there. The idea would be that we would be able to offer some premium things beyond just the podcast will always be free.


I'm always going to do the podcast the way that we're doing it. But what else can I do to be of service and contribute to this community?


And how can I be a more present communicative member of the community as well, which is where my head's at.


So it's kind of like a remote retreat, like doing what you do in the retreat mode.


But yeah, it would be like, well, how about a monthly Zoome call with everybody who's a subscriber? What about a bonus podcast episode? Every month, you know, things like that and and just taking everybody's temperature and pulse on what they would be interested in.


So excited about the work that we're doing there. And again, that's another thing we're all keeping us posted and more will be revealed.


That Facebook group is cool. It's fun to see everybody interacting and connecting on their own terms, but with content inspired by your content. Yeah, I mean, the idea there is I wanted to make a place for the community to do its own thing outside of myself, like for it for those people to interact with each other and to be able to see that happening is. Cool.


What's funny is after I had Doug Evans on the podcast, then it just became like a whole portal for people sharing about sprouting and everybody was, you know, exchanging their tips and where they get their equipment and what their sprout's look like.


So I thought I would bring in some of my own sprouts. The funny thing about that is Doug got me doing it. I got these canisters, which you can see here. If you're watching this on YouTube, they're just basic glass. I think I got everything from Sprout Man's Brauman Dotcom. They have a little grated top on them. And I have now more sprouts than I can possibly do anything with it. I literally had to stop sprouting because they started to overwhelm much, much too much eating sprouts all day long.


Did you evict you from the kitchen? No. She's excited about it, actually, because I've taken an interest in some version of home economics for a change. So she's very supportive. But I got a whole rack up in our kitchen and I've got a process and it's very satisfying because it's all done.


It's also it's first of all, it's super easy. Basically rinse these things overnight and then you or you soak them overnight and then you rinse them like two or three times a day for a couple of days and they just do their thing. And these are lentils. So these are those are lentils here. This one's like a mix. I got these, like, containers. It's that pop lids on them and I put them in the fridge and weight loss tips for anybody out there who's looking to drop a few pounds.


Doug told me that he basically just eat sprouts all day.


I was like, how is that possible? Like, are you starving? Like, aren't you like. So I thought, well, I'll try that. So for the past couple of weeks, like throughout the day, I'll just munch on sprouts as a snack and they're actually incredibly filling. You can only eat so many before you max out. And my gut definitely had to adjust. It took a little bit of time and now I'm pretty adjusted and it's become habitual.


Like I'll just eat sprouts throughout the day. Yeah. And it really does modulate my appetite and I'll eat a normal dinner. But there's been days where I'll just eat sprouts during the day and then I'll eat dinner and I've been fine.


So you are like going in the full transition to Bunnie. I feel like it, yeah. It's high five that run through the hills anyway so yeah I'm enjoying it. So you got it. You've got to get on it. It's cool. You know, April really wants to when you're pregnant you can't eat sprouts. You can't. I didn't know why, but really I'm sure it's one of the baby books that enjoyed reading so far, but all different kinds of sprouts.


Yeah. They say stay away from sprouts, but that might be sprouts you buy in the kit in the in the store because E. coli is somehow more prevalent sprouts. So I think if you make it yourself, maybe that's not as much of an issue. I think the fear is I don't know. But but I suspect the fear is that, you know, they can go bad. And so if you eat a bad patch, that could be problematic or dangerous.


Yeah, I don't know that there would be anything in sprouts that haven't, like, turned that would be unhealthy for a pregnant person. But I'm not a doctor. Don't listen to me.


No, don't worry. We're we're sticking to the baby books. We've got to we're you just we're installing blinds in the new place and they can't you can't have the cords got to be cordless, which is elevated everything price wise about two X because and yesterday we were talking about it like, well, maybe we could just go with cords. And she's like, I'm like, where does it say that we shouldn't have cords? She goes literally every baby book.


Oh, really? And I'm like, oh. So only one month ago, one month until. Well to you.


So September ten. Yeah, yeah. Coming up quick, I think it's going to be September eleventh because I'm December 7th. Yeah. So I think we're going to be the tragic holiday boys. We'll see. More will be revealed.


Steve, what do you want to talk about.


I thought we could talk a little bit about well let me set the stage. So as many of you know, the last couple of months of the podcast have been pretty heavy. I've done my best to tackle some very serious subjects, everything from racial injustice to systemic racism, food, injustice. You know, really the most pertinent, important topics of our time that we're grappling with. We have a bit of a respite. This week. I put up Kevin Smith and his daughter, Harlequin's Smith, super delightful, fun conversation.


But I've been spending a lot of time kind of reflecting on, you know, how to best communicate and advocate in this space. With the understanding that it's so fraught and because we put these forecasts up on YouTube, you see the comments and you get a sense of what's landing for people and what isn't. Not that YouTube comments are a reliable source of constructive feedback, but I do know that for a lot of people, it's been challenging in terms of how to communicate publicly in the most effective way around these issues.


And there's a lot of fear from certain people who don't want to get it wrong, don't want to misstep, don't want to offend. And the result of that has been to retreat from the conversation altogether. Which doesn't help now, right? And you've decided. Obviously against that, from the beginning, you were very clear that you wanted to address the situation from the beginning. What do you think is the inspiration to retreat from it? What are people besides just fear?


Is that is it the idea of being canceled or like somehow being called out?


Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of calling out right now. There is a robust cancel culture afoot, and I think people are terrified of getting a taste of what that experience might be. And look, it's complicated because on the one hand, the the you know, the public forum is holding people accountable for things that need to be addressed and spoken about.


And in many ways, that culture has led to some of the changes that we're seeing right now.


At the same time, I think it's important to provide people a little bit of breathing room around this who might get it wrong initially. You know, Bill Maher talked about this in his closing monologue a couple of weeks ago that, you know, we have to encourage people to participate in this rather than discourage them from raising their hand and saying, you know, I want to be part of this as well. But I'm afraid.


I mean, I think. I agree with you, I mean, there's there is a danger of you don't want to become the new McCarthyist, right? Like where all of a sudden you can't if you say the wrong thing, you're branded a certain way and you're out, you know, because that plays into. People who want to keep things the same as they've always been, it plays right into their hands, right? Because now you've elevated them as the people who are more in touch with free speech, which is, you know, definitely an element of this of this country that's you know, that's of all the things I mean, I'm of all the things America has been good at.


Free speech is one of them. I mean, it really is. So so it's probably at the top of that list. So it's it's core to the culture here. That's why people like coming here. You know, look what's happening in Hong Kong right now where overnight that gets the light switch is turned off. So when you cancel people to to the you know, based on there's some things that happen that are legit. But when you just cancel people because they said something the wrong way or all of a sudden, you know, things and their whole careers is now in jeopardy, especially if it's really a misinterpretation or a matter of perception that is dangerous because you are playing you are pushing people away.


That could be a contributor to making things better.


Mm hmm. Yeah.


And I think it's more nuanced than just cancel culture. It's just being reprimanded publicly. You know, the way Bill Maher put it, he's like, you want to be a good ally, but not too good, or you're a white savior. You want to use your voice, but you shouldn't make it about yourself. You know, the rules are complicated and it's almost like you have to thread a needle or walk this tightrope. And I think a lot of people are just like I don't like no matter what I do, it's not going to be right.


And so I'm just going to. Opt out. Yeah, and I agree. I mean, look, there is the argument to be made that we wouldn't be where we are in terms of confronting racism finally and more definitively if it wasn't for the orthodoxy of the left right. So now the fact that there are hard lines of of how to behave, which are kind of anathema to people of my generation, Gen X, which was like we wanted to rebel against those rules all the time, like when you were supposed to behave a certain way.


We wanted to behave a different way. Right. But now this generation is all about behaving the right way and signaling the right things and communicating the right way. And and so that has gotten us to this point where we're actually making some progress or it seems to me seems to me that we're making some progress because because people are are are holding politicians feet to the fire and and other public people, you know, people who have a public platform, their feet are being held to the fire or they're they're stepping in line because they want to do whatever it is.


There is a line and people are lined up to do it. And so it could be this orthodoxy which. Can be construed as as somewhat dangerous if if it continues going forward, like six moves down the road for now has put us in an unprecedented position in terms of tackling racism in America and confronting it head on. So it's there's that. But then there's also the thing is, well, if you continue to narrow it, then then are we going to make the real progress we want to make or should we widen it and allow everybody to be a part of it?




Well, the strictures have become so constrained, you know, and as a fellow Gen Xers. Yes, you know, it is true. It was all about individualism, a rebellion against control systems. But the locus of that control was always governments and organizations, whereas now the control mechanism is diffused across the population. And to the extent that there is value in weakness, because it's waking up this awareness inside of ourselves about grander problems that exist outside of our, you know, individualistic dispositions.


At the same time, the extremist aspect of weakness, I think, is is very toxic. And the downstream implications of that type of policing of speech and behaviour is not in service to the best interests of liberalism. Right. Because liberalism is this ideal that we want to aspire to where it can be. People of different thoughts and beliefs come together to create a society that is mostly free and open. Right, right. Right.


And when and when we're we're being regimented in in such a way that openness is called into question. Yeah.


You know, and I think by it also or who want to keep the status quo.


Well, also the extreme aspects of weakness also just further entrench and solidify the the conservative point of view, because people look at that and just think these people are out of their minds. It's absolutely true. Also, it now, like the new punk rock thing to do is to be conservative. So there's that aspect, too, like if you don't really want to piss people off, you become a you know, that's true. Like young people who want to piss people off and be the radical.


Now, like when we were growing up, no way wouldn't be Republicans doing that. Right now it is Republicans doing that.


Beyond that, the true heterodoxy is happening online. That's not a part of the mainstream media or news culture that we're that we're seeing on cable news. Right. The ideas that are trying to address these from a perspective of greater nuance and understanding are happening in long form conversations, you know, across podcasting and YouTube. Yeah, agreed. But it's it's almost like both are happening. You know, that's that gets us into this other kind of place. I mean, I went before we go in there, but before we get into kind of the wellness and and rabbit hole and all of that kind of to get us there, when I think about when I think of the cancer culture and public shaming and and the orthodoxy of speech and and and political thought on the left and the right, I think of kind of the Balinese philosophy of tree to Karana, which is all about cultivating harmony with yourself and with God or the universe, however you want to describe it, harmony among people within the community, in the family and harmony with nature and the environment.


That's what it was all built around, because it was this culture that came up on this small island, its own kind of Hindu culture that developed with animist beliefs and Hinduism and and this culture developed because all we have is this island. So we need to make sure it all works, you know, like the way we channel the water to the rice fields, everything, the way we interact with one another. We are now in this place where we want to eradicate and destroy.


And I understand why, you know, like it's because people have felt that they're trying that their lives are in jeopardy, that they're being eradicated or not heard or and destroyed and attempted to destroy. But shouldn't the aspiration be harmony, you know, like and within Balinese worldview is this idea that you can't you can't destroy the dark thing, the evil thing, it can never be destroyed. The best you can do is cultivate enough light that you have a balance and that's what you can do.


And that's not just within society, that's within yourself, because we all have kind of these dark thoughts, right? I mean, that's just part of the human condition. And so they do it through meditation and through rituals that are performed on a daily basis and then within a village and and within the island wide. But we it's something that I think a. I was been thinking about that this week, that would be a good place to get to if we can consider how do we cultivate harmony with ourselves within the community and and with nature, because that should that should be the driving force.


And if you do that, there will be no place for people like the current president or, you know, right. Figures. There will be no place for them.


They'll exist because you can't eliminate that. But you can't they won't have the oxygen. But when you do this other thing where you try to eradicate them, they become like demagogues.


They become bigger, not smaller. Well, I think the problem with I mean, it's a beautiful ideal.


I think the what makes translating that notion or laying that template upon America as we see it right now is the fact that we we have systems that need to be reformed before that's functional, because that idea, as beautiful as it is, gets conflated with all lives matter or, you know, I don't see color, you know what I mean?


Like it's like, oh, harmony. And I think. In order to get to that place first, we need to drill down on the systemic aspect of these problems and what's driving, you know, the kind of unconscious forces that are creating problems that lead to the disenfranchisement of people of color. Right. And until we do that, we can't deal with the harmony part.


No, I think that that's the needs. Like, so do you want the orthodoxy? Because that'll get which which is the place that gets us there, though, like the orthodoxy has got us this place where we're confronting it head on. Is that going to be enough to actually get to the systemic root of it? Or do you need to build consensus? And if you need to build consensus, then you can't do that with just the orthodoxy. Right, right.


So you need to have. Yeah. Now I understand what you're saying.


Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, consensus is the way forward. Right. But right now we're creating demagogues. Yeah. Yeah. My fear is that my fear is that this polarization is only going to escalate and that really is driving a rift that makes this problem all the more difficult to solve. Right. And if you come across I mean, I'm I'm with the conversation of systemic change and we need to get there. But if we if if what drives us towards getting there is this idea of we we have to live in harmony because we do live here and we need a unity of purpose.


We need a unity of purpose. So it's not so much trying to culturally appropriate the body's worldview and put it here. It's this guiding light, kind of like this idea that that there is something to be learned from all these different cultures that have cultivated something that does seem to work for people and for community. I mean, not that it's an ideal place, but it's it's something to think about, like a philosophy to think about. And how can that be applied here?




Shifting gears a little bit, I wanted to talk about how all of these ideas impact the wellness and alternative health community, because one of the things that I've noticed that I think is super interesting is the way in which the wellness community itself has become a certain aspect of it, has become radicalized or prone to more conspiracy oriented ideas. And I've been spending a lot of time thinking about why that is like there's a strange Venn diagram when you look at the wellness community and how it overlaps with certain political ideologies.


I used to think that these things lived in separate universes, but now everything is political and recent events have made that truth all the more so. And in thinking about it, the conclusion that I'm that I'm arriving at is that I think I think at its origins, wellness, wellness, the wellness movement, if there is such a thing, grew out of the roots of alternative health ideologies and. Those notions are the result of people taking attempting to take better control of their own health trajectories and also a healthy distrust of the medical establishment, like don't just go to your doctor and get a prescription, like here are some other things that you could potentially do that might make you a healthier human being.


And over time, I think that bred a healthy distrust of certain institutions that perhaps don't have the best interests. Right. Individuals in the patients. And I think that's good. And now that seems to have metastasized in ways that are potentially unhealthy. Yeah, it's like embedded within this kind of wellness community that is is becoming more and more skeptical of things, especially with this pandemic and the CDC and all that kind of thing that you're talking about. Right.


And wellness, is that what you're getting at, the fact that online there is a healthy portion of the wellness community that is basically doesn't believe. The coronavirus stats doesn't believe that it's as dangerous or yeah, I mean, I don't want to go down some crazy rabbit hole about conspiracy X, Y or Z. Yes, that's not the purpose of why I brought this up. But I think in general, yes, like there's a there's a receptivity to potentially wrongheaded ideas right now among the wellness community that I think is new and different and something to be aware of.


I think that it comes it's because it's because they've been, you know, all of this stuff that we are seeing now, fake news, whether it be from the health side or just general fake political news or whatever it is that only works because there was a period of time when we were lied to and blatantly misled by the FBI, by government institutions, by Dow Chemical, whatever it is. I don't know if you saw the movie Dark Waters about the whole Teflon situation, which I think it's Dupont, actually, that Mark Ruffalo movie.


I haven't seen it yet, but I'm familiar with the case. Yeah. Yeah.


So, I mean, there is this route that that is kind of toxic, was toxic to Piana, and there's a healthy distrust that comes with that, whether it's a chemical company or a pharmaceutical company or an oil company.


And and so this is all a result of that. You know, like in the 50s when Village Voice was founded and then all these weeklies in the 60s kind of ad, which was heavily tied in with wellness stuff, some of them were, you know, very much connected, kind of they they popped up all across the country. These are weeklies. It became a movement. And that was because the mainstream media wasn't to be trusted. They were kind of spinning the party line.


That's not, you know, so that that's hasn't changed. That that distrust of these institutions never left. Now it's just changed shape and form and into a much more powerful force, which is which is digital media and social media.


Yeah, it is weird that everything is political now. Yeah. There used to be politics and everything else, but now there's nothing that isn't part and parcel of a political discussion. It is weird.


I don't know whether that's good or bad, but I feel like. It's not bringing us together. No, I think it's serving to really create distance between ourselves and our fellow man. It's dissonant. Yeah, no question. And I don't know what the way forward is. I'm a free speech proponent. Yeah. But I think there's also a responsibility that comes with having a platform. And I spent a lot of time thinking about what are the kind of conversations I want to have, who are the kind of people that I want sitting across from me.


And it's not just anybody like I put thought into that, because people are paying attention. They're listening. They're watching. And when I see others shirk that responsibility for the sake of views or clicks, I think that that that.


That is irresponsible right now, especially in a time that's so fraught. My hope is that everybody would be mindful of the types of conversations they're having. And I don't think it's enough to just say, well, I'm just I'm just having a conversation with somebody who doesn't mean that I agree with them. Of course, I've done hundreds of interviews. I'm not going to agree with everything that the person sitting across from me says. There's going to be healthy disagreement, but I think that's different.


That's entirely different from having somebody on who's coming from a, you know, a perspective that might get a lot of attention but is potentially harmful, especially in a moment where lives are truly at stake.


Yeah. And you're in charge of your platform and you can make those decisions. And but what happens when those are when it's more systemic than that, when it's an A.I. that is teeing up video after video to people? Right. Well, that's definitely what's happening. Right. So if you're one of the people that is that cares about their platform for your own personal, you know, because you have a brand to protect and you have and you have your own motivations for that which are personal, but also from a perspective of running your operation.


But when other people who just want the clicks because it's easier money, more listeners, that kind of thing, then they become part of a pile than an algorithm or an A.I.. Right. Kind of starts queuing up like its own, you know, like like that's a different thing entirely, you know. Right. Which which really brings us to the next thing that we wanted to talk about, which is this incredible podcast series that The New York Times put out called Rabbit Hole.


And I think to preface that conversation, I would say that we all want to believe that we are not only rational, sentient actors, but that we're not that manipulatable. Right. Right. Yeah. And when you listen to this series, you realize. Just how inaccurate that actually is. Yeah, yeah, and it speaks specifically and directly to the statement that you just said. So Adam and I talked and we thought, wouldn't it be fun on the show to do a little bit of, you know, show and tell?


I brought the Sprout's, but also share a few things that we've been enjoying. And the first thing that came to my mind was this podcast series because it had I thought it was superbly done and. Speaks to exactly what we've been talking about, which I think is a really important issue right now, the manner in which people are so easily. Swayed by. The vicissitudes of the YouTube algorithm, yeah, I listen to this like a couple of months ago, so it's not as fresh in my mind as it is for you because you listen to it.


I just listen to it. Well, Kevin Roose is the host and the reporter behind it. You know, he's one of The New York Times best tech reporters and he covers Facebook and social media relentlessly and really is illuminated many things for me before I started listening to this podcast. But mostly I've been watching his posts like he does either daily or weekly posts of the most the most viewed, most shared things on Facebook. And nine out of ten of them are really conservative write articles.


And one is like an Occupy Democrats article. So it's very political. It just shows you how stark and political Facebook truly is. And he kind of raised that for me while ago with his reporting. This is really interesting because it shows you, you know, when he interviews the CEO of YouTube and other people involved, it's almost like they're surprised, like they've unleashed this A.I., which is the algorithm that operates on its own. And it cues up video after video for people like the podcast opens.


If you haven't heard it, it opens with someone who has been kind of down the rabbit hole. I forget his name, but he starts he starts watching Joe Rogan, which leads to Sebastian Milano, I think is his name. No, Stefan. Stefan. Stefan Molyneux is his name. So, yeah, it basically tracks this one young man's trajectory from an average dude and how he becomes over time radicalized by virtue of YouTube and then ultimately how he finds his way out of that rabbit hole also by virtue of YouTube.


Yeah. And they track they go through his entire watch history and they look at all the videos that were suggested to him. And you can see this like path this guy takes from one video to the next to the next to the next, how it walks him through this process of ideation where he slowly becomes immersed in ideas that are not his own, that he didn't necessarily choose. And by virtue of that suggested call him on the right hand side of YouTube, he ends up watching and how incredibly influential all of that became for that young man, because they spend hours, what he spent hours watching.


Yeah, watching this stuff. And that's the other thing is you keep hearing. And at the end of it, there's a story about pizza guy and an older YouTube addict, I guess you could call it, or or devotee who literally spent at least going through a hard time in her life. And basically, YouTube was the one comfort she had and she would just watch hours of it in a row. And she started with Elizabeth Warren's speeches. Right.


And in on territory. Yes. You know, so it shows you. So a couple of things takeaway for me is like I'm thinking I'd like to see a study on AI and the YouTube algorithm and what kind of hormones are going through the body. Like, I want I want some science that's media scientists to, like, put someone in the UK like Nieman Lab, put electrodes on their bodies and literally find out what hormones are being secreted in the person by this A.I..


Well, there are some interesting studies that are being done right now. This guy called Tristan Harris, who I believe is a former Google executive, if memory serves me, who started now a foundation that's that's looking at that very thing. Is that right? What what kind of research specifically they're doing.


But there are very smart people who are paying attention to this because it really is like getting played like the who's the real tool now? Like who's getting played. Right.


And the irony in that, of course, is that the messaging is all about. How you need to sort of take the red pill and emerge from being played. Yes. But in turn you are actually yourself playing into something else entirely.


It's this it's this interesting kind of dichotomy. Looking on the left where it used to be like Twitter was this place where liberal rage went to live and thrive and progressives kind of had their say. But really, everyone wondered, well, you what are you really doing? You're just tweeting and YouTube. It's like these would be, quote, researchers. They really think of themselves as researchers like in Florida, that meeting over the masks. Did you see that?


We're like a bunch of angry people came up and we're we're chastising the city council saying, I won't wear your this mask is going to kill me, like all sorts of crazy. Right? And they describe them. I've done my research. The research is watching YouTube videos. I mean, I'm not fucking around like that. That's like. That's right. I think research is like watching YouTube videos, like you hear that. It's like I mean, that is that's scary.


Yeah. Yeah.


You didn't know that? No, I didn't know that. I think of themselves as researchers.


Now, you're I did see the woman who who went into Target and pulled all the masks off that they were selling and threw them all on the floor and. Yeah, got angry. It wasn't she wasn't mad that she was being forced to wear a mask. She was mad that Target was selling masks because this is the repressed rage that so many people are feeling right now that has nothing to do with masks and has everything to do with something else deeper.


What do you think? It has to do it? Because I was talking about this with April.


I like to have a society that's reacting this way to the pandemic and and needs YouTube in this manner and is craving this kind of information. It points to kind of a riot at the core, doesn't it? I think it's disenfranchisement, disenfranchisement and powerlessness. Like if you what what would motivate you to go into a target and, like, knock down a display case of products on it unless something was fundamentally broken inside of you? And I think people feel like they don't have a voice and their lives are neutered in such a way that it's that they're under expressed, I guess, as a way to put it right.


They may have perfectly fine jobs and, you know, are able to pay their bills and whatnot, but there's a deep seated sense of. Dissatisfaction or a lack of agency? I think alienation that is at a low boil and so you can continue to live your life and it seems manageable and not at some kind of acute crisis level, but it's just beneath the surface and all it takes is something like this. That gives them permission to express it, so it's like a man versus machine feeling like you feel like you're being ground up by the machine.


By the way, life is all the structures and kind of being put upon you. And then, ironically, your salvation is diving into this A.I. machine and. Right. And what a trip that is. I mean, but I agree with you. Like, there is a there is something where people are deeply unsatisfied. I feel like it's an alienation. Do you feel like it's more exacerbated with with quarantine than it's actually becoming easier to see? Yeah, yeah.


It's it's the witch's brew of quarantine and all of the political unrest, like, it's all of these things are combining to create a very unique situation in which this repressed rage is finding, you know, it's finding its expression in these unhealthy ways.


It's a trip. I mean, it's like the the idea with coronavirus and how some people's answer don't wear masks. We should go for herd immunity. And it'll be interesting to see when there is a vaccine, how many of these people who claim they want herd immunity, well, lined up for a shot of herd immunity.


The other thing about rabbit hole that's fascinating is it's not just about this young man and his journey through the YouTube algorithm. Yeah. It then looks at the origins of Kuhnen and you hear testimony from these, you know, Kuhnen people and how much they loved it started out as like this community for what sounded like people who are lonely and they really enjoyed chatting with you. It's exactly what you're talking about and that there's something healthy about that.


But of course, it's all premised upon this Kuhnen and who you got.


And we know you know, I don't know. I don't know. But how that then metastasize into something unhealthy. Right. The origins of that were people getting together who were able to chat with each other online, you know, on Reddit, I guess. Well, yeah, but they were chatting with each other about how fucked up the, you know, the system was. Well, that goes back to the disenfranchisement, right. The the the lack of agency, the feeling that you don't have power over your life and when you can point your finger at something else outside of yourself and say that's why and you can rally a lot of emotional support around that, that becomes a very potent and powerful force.


It's interesting because the two people that that they profiled first the YouTube algorithm with the the younger guy in West Virginia who was living his grandparents and who became a YouTube himself. Right. And then the woman who was in the hospitality industry and she lost everything in the financial crisis and then had her home destroyed in Hurricane Irma. And she got into the kuhnen rabbit hole. They both represent kind of parallel to the opioid epidemic. It's hitting like it is hitting disproportionately white communities where there is this this kind of storm of disempowerment coming through like a guy coming out of college or like dropped out of college, couldn't figure out what he was wanting to do, didn't really have a lot of opportunity living in his grandma's house.


This woman who had hit a couple of brick walls and financially and is now living at some friend's house with nothing to do and no job, it's those are the people that are are heading there. So there is I wonder what you think, that if there is from an addiction standpoint, do you see parallels? Drive in this connection you're talking about, they're going for it's around a very specific thing that they're kind of tapping into.


Well, certainly, you know, I'm not a psychologist.


But I think what is going on is there is once you stumble upon an idea that connects with you, like you see this person and they feel like they're speaking to you directly and they're telling you about your problems and they're offering a solution that's very intoxicating. And then you can click on another video and this person is going to tell you even more. Something is going on biochemically in your brain. And as you begin to calcify around these ideas, then it becomes a quest for confirmation bias.


You're going to click on more and more videos that are going to affirm and entrench that perspective. And that's not a left or right thing.


This is happening on both polarities of both spectrum. Yeah, and there's like something happening in these videos that is very extreme. That is like the more extreme you get, the more outlandish you get, the bigger it gets. Like, look at Pooty Pie. Right, right. He the one that's in the middle go through the whole thing with him. Yeah. Yeah. And his growth and how he's got one hundred million something subscribers. I mean who's really the alternative media now.


Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting that still gets pegged as alternative media and yet that person flicks on a video camera and is reaching way more people than any television show has.


Four million subscribers. We've got one hundred and thirty million a year of 600 million.


Well, that's what's so interesting. Like you look at Rogen and I've said this many times before, but for a lot of people, especially young men, he's the most important media figure in their life, no doubt about it. 100 percent. Yeah, incredibly influential and powerful. And despite a couple articles about him and his show and his sort of universe of people that he likes to have on in The New York Times, The Atlantic, there's been a couple of pieces about it.


He doesn't it doesn't come up in mainstream media. It's as if it doesn't exist. And yet his what he's doing is reaching way more people than those Sunday morning political, you know, batshit political shows where everyone's yelling at each other.


But, you know, it's as ignorant as I was of putrefies fame like I heard of him, but I didn't realize how big he was. And of of, you know, how how many like how mainstream. Actually, this YouTube stuff is like it is very mainstream. I did know about Rogen and how dominant he was because obviously with the David Goggins book, my experience and knowing what a dominant force he was. But when Bernie Sanders went on there, he was killed on Twitter on the left for like going on Joe Rogan show, which I thought was I thought that was insane.


That was insane, because if you know anything, you know, that's the perfect place for him to go. You know, like if you want to actually if you want to win, recruit people who are potentially Trump supporters to switch sides. You get Joe Rogan, do endorse your candidate. Yes. That was the greatest thing that ever happened in the fact that the left railed against that I think shines a light on. It really elucidates the systemic problems with the left at the moment.


Also, the lack of understanding of who's actually in charge, who's powerful in media right now. Like there's a lack of understanding, like my lack of understanding was not realizing, you know, pooty pie and all this this crazy, you know, Kuhnen and all. I really until I listened to this, I didn't really fully understand the depth of it. I just happen to know about I know about Rogan, but like, there's a whole bunch of people that don't realize it.


I remember having debates with it on Twitter. People are trashing Bernie for going on rogue. And I'm like, no, like that's the best place to go, right? Like, yeah. Like, that's that makes perfect sense. I can tell you, I've been a guest on Joe Show twice. Both of those experiences were fantastic. I get along with Joe perfectly fine. I have a huge amount of respect for what he does. And when you go on his show and look, the last time I did it, it was quite a long time ago.


It's grown significantly since then, but it's insane. Like the spike in people that are suddenly paying attention to you is bananas, unlike any other media I've ever done a hundred fold. And I would suspect that Dave Goggins would tell you the same. He's one of the most popular guests that Joe's ever had on. No doubt. No doubt. Like his his numbers spiked significantly after that. Joe Rogan. Nothing has even touched it. Yeah.


Nothing even comes close. No, it's incredibly powerful. And people now, I think, are more increasingly aware that at least it exists. But I still think they're woefully under appreciating the heft and the power that that program holds at the moment. Agreed.


And it's and the good thing about his program, which doesn't get I don't think a lot of mainstream I think either, is that he's actually very smart. He's the kind of person you actually want and he's in that position. And he's very cagey in that he will say, look, I'm just a dummy, don't listen to me. But he's very good at what he does. And I can tell you that as somebody who's sat across from him for six hours talking to him.


There you go. So.


Did you want to get into how where the Kuhnen went or do you want to get into cosmic ping pong or not really. Now, let's I think we're we'll do we'll save that for another time.


Yeah. We could monopolize hours of conversation. And I don't want to do that, you know, lightly. No, but you could take a highlight and then all of a sudden that could be in the key. Well I think. Q On YouTube and think of all the other users you'll get I'm not doing this for Califate.


And I think one, I will say this and then let's move on. And that is that these are not academic problems. These are actual issues that have real world ramifications.


And there is no more example that illustrates that better than what happened at Kozmic Pizza when that gunman showed up, convinced that there was a child sex ring going on in the basement of this pizza parlor in Washington, D.C. And he, in his own mind, was well-intentioned.


He thought children were being harmed because of the way that he had been radicalized online. And what you just said there shows how we should approach this like it's empathetic. And that's how Kevin Roose approaches this in this series. And it also is that that YouTube video I referenced, and I'll send you the link because you should see this this this woman who everyone on online was calling crazy and look at her in ha ha. What a joke she is for a railing at this this city council.


Kevin put that up and said these issue, the this is very mainstream. It's not fringe. Literally. One hundred million people could feel like I don't forget what his words were. But look, what she is saying is not fringe. And that's the problem. Right? What she is saying is actually mainstream, just like we're talking about what is mainstream and the solution and which is which is what Kevin did such a good job of portraying the solution is that we have to understand what's going on with these people that would lead to this kind of this kind of wrongheaded thinking.


Right. Like this is a person who was vulnerable for these reasons. And until we address the situation that creates that vulnerability, this is only going to get worse. Well, I think that's a good way to kind of segway into how to feed the soul in these trying times. Yes. And if it's not going to be yoga and meditation rich, I think it should be Queer Eye. It should be. That's where our good I mean, we have a couple of choices here.


We have Queer Eye and we have Khania. Let's go to eye first. These are these are our chances for redemption here.


So we were joking recently. I think I was with you and I just brought it up that you been watching it with basically. Yeah. So throughout quarantine, we have all our kids home. We've been having family dinners. There's a lot that's been really nice about it. And one of the things that we've done not every night, but like a couple of nights a week, like after dinner or like, all right, what do you want to watch?


And for some reason, we started watching Queer Eye. My relationship with Queer Eye dates back to Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, like the original cast all the way back to G. And I had no I'm late to the party here because I've never seen this television show. I think maybe I had a vague notion that they had rebooted it and it existed, but I'd never watched that episode. He never watched it. Season five got released. Yes.


So it's been around for five years. I've never seen it. So this is like my big like here's what everyone should watch. Everyone's like, yeah, I know. I've been watching that all along. Yeah.


But I was really moved by this program, like from the first episode that I watch, I'm like, OK, they're going to it's a makeover show. These, these do I who are these guys like they're going to come in, they're going to make these people over without fail. Every episode of the show that I've watched has been like an emotional roller coaster ride. It's so inspiring.


Yes. I'm really touched by what these five guys are, the way in which these five guys are able to connect with so many different varieties of humanity. And more than that, the way in which they're doing it, I think it's really beautiful. And so over the course of the quarantine, we've watched. The entire five seasons, I've missed a few nights, you mentioned one episode to me, that's one of your favorites. I don't think you've seen it yet, but the barbecue I love this show is incredible.


I've been on it since it started, you know, like so Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, for those who have not seen the original. It was really all about getting straight guys to look better and groom better and live better. And it was that's what it was about. And they were mostly young. It was MTV show, I think. I think so, yeah. At least originally it was for young people this they not only they choose a diverse cast of people who are multitalented and extremely good on television and it's an hour long, but it's kind of adds a home improvement element that was like flexors out the home improvement at Tiptree.


Bobby. It also Bobby's a genius, Bobby, by the way, what he's able to do in five days in these people's homes is unbelievable. And then we have this is my hat tip to Dan, France wearing my tan France approved shirt. Looks good. I think he would approve and nudity with your pop color, too, I think.


Hey, listen, I started wearing a jacket on this podcast when I started watching Queer Eye. So there you go.


But they also chose like it's not just men, you know, it's it's women. It's it's queer people. It's people who are who are like even on the gender spectrum, it's it's real hard cases like kind of people that you wouldn't expect this group of gay men to go into and help.


And it's there was a whole season in the south in Georgia where they're interacting with all kinds of people who for the most part, a lot of them, I think, really had no meaningful relationships with any gay people in their lives ever before. And the compassion and the patience and the fun that they bring into these people's lives is I mean, I just I think and the love, the self-love. And that's the other huge difference between that original version and this one is the self-help empowerment angle that Kurama brings.


And they say he's like Chromeo culture. He's not. This guy is like literally helping these people see their lives with more clarity, identifying the the obstacles that they're facing or what's hamstringing them and trying to help them find a better path forward.


I mean, culture came from the original. I think, like one person's job was to teach them how to eat properly and like to go dancing, these kinds of things. And so that's what they had. Croma with the Chromeo is a guy who was, I think, a licensed clinical social worker, like a therapist. I think he's I think he's a psychotherapist. Yeah.


And he is I mean, he will just cut right to the core every time, right? Yeah. I got to get your guy right. I got to get that right. I got to get that guy on the podcast. I know he has his own podcast on Luminary. He did. I think Russell Brand had Chromeo on his show. I'm going to check that out. I got to listen. Yeah, I got it. I mean, that's got to happen.


Kurama has got to get on the show. And what about GBL?


GVN, I mean, has there ever I mean, what do you even say? I mean, the guy's like, I don't know what they're paying that guy, but they should, like, triple it. I mean, he's the most fabulous, entertaining, unique human being you're ever going to see on television. Yeah, he's beautiful. He played Carnegie Hall, by the way. Did he? Yeah. You didn't know that he I don't know any I don't know.


He did like a whole, like comedy variety show with gymnastics and he played Carnegie Hall. I saw him do the splits. Did you see him? I knew that he was like a cheerleader in his high school. Did you go to did you watch the episode where he went back to his high school and cried like the woman who is in charge of all? I started watching it and then I had to work and I missed it. So that's another all.


You have to go back and watch the whole part. Yes. Like Javier. Yeah, that's the one.


I mean, that guy is unbelievable and how he connects with people like with his childlike nature. You know, it's so warm and inviting. Yeah. Those guys are doing more for gay rights.


And I mean, the advocacy that's kind of behind like it's it's not explicit. It's sort of just there in the way that they carry themselves, I think is really powerful. They're just. Yeah, beautiful human being smart on top of it together and and and. Empathetic, like they're looking for the places. No matter who it is, they're they're always they're not they're not spending any time on the differences or the division they're going right towards. What they can connect with, like what are the similarities, where is the what is the way in with this person?


How can I relate to them? Yeah, that's cool. So I'm five I'm five years late to this party. But you're in the. But if anybody is listening to this or watching this and they're they're like me, I have been enjoying this show and I was shocked. But here is the final part of this show and tell, which is like the cherry on top of this Sunday is I'm scrolling through Twitter the other day and Briney Brown posted this thing that I thought was so great.


I love Bernie Brown. She's another person I really want to get on the show. I just think she's magnificent. Apparently, she was hiking in the Texas Hill Country. Right. She lives in Houston. Right. So, yes, the whole country is more around Austin. It is around us. But it sounded like she was out in the middle of nowhere. But it's all still eastern Texas, right? Austin. And yeah, she's out hiking by herself in the middle of nowhere.


And she stumbles upon somebody sitting under a cedar tree. And it turns out it's chavy. And she's like and they both say, apparently, according to a tweet, they both say, oh, my God, is that you? Because I guess they were supposed to do an event together. Yes. Yes. So I don't know. Just it warms my heart to think those two discovered each other on a trail and had a hike together. It's great.


It's radical, radical love and and is a bit of a radical. I like his politics. He I don't know much about his politics.


He had a yeah. He is all about is all about the right thing.


It just puts a smile on my face that those two would be out together. And I think we need a little bit of good news amidst all we do.


That's right. That's what it's all about. There was. That was kind of your win of the week, right? We're doing that, that was my win. That was your Wednesday, the Bernie Brown Øjvind Union.


That's a win. That is a win. Yeah. Do you have a win? Yeah, my win was. Was the Argentinean who wanted to get back to his 90 year old dad and couldn't fly home because he was stuck in Portugal and there were no flights back into Buenos Aires, and he had a 29 foot boat and he decided to sail home for his dad's birthday and was at sea for 89 days. He tried to resupply and Cape Verde, the islands off of, you know, West Africa, and they wouldn't take him because they're a small island nation.


And they they were careful about the virus. And he sailed across the Atlantic all the way down to Mar del Plata, which is this incredible fishing city in Argentina. And he sailed all the way home to see his dad. He didn't make his birthday, but he he got there. And a great story. Beautiful. Yeah. Trying to think of what I would do for my dad.


Well, that is I mean, wow, that hit home because my dad has been having some health issues in and out of the hospital. So for me, it's like to see that and to and he had, you know, the the sailor I'm sorry, I'm spaced on his name, but we'll put the link to the story in the show. Notes. Right. So people are sure you can get get it. And it was New York Times story, the New York Times story.


And he. You know, just to to see his own personal growth on that, he was off by himself for that entire time, he like didn't even fish. He couldn't kill anything. He still ate his, like, canned tuna. But like he had he's like he's not going to fish anymore. He just had this he went through his own, you know. Crucible. So how did he if he wasn't able to resupply? He did. He did stored I mean, obviously boats like that will have a decelerator.


And then he he had stored a bunch of canned tuna use. Most of that was his thing off canned tuna and whatever else he brought along and no gas because he couldn't get gas at Cape Verde. So he was just like dealing with the doldrums and trying to find the wind and trying to stay safe.


And he. Amazing, amazing.


Good deal. Well, I feel better. That's good. Yeah, good.


So we answer some listener emails.


Well, let's take a quick break and then we'll come back and do a little listener email.


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That's Squarespace Dotcom slash rich roll for 10 percent off your first purchase. Make your next move with a beautiful website from Squarespace. All right. We did it back to the show. And we're back. What do you got for me, Adam? OK, before we get to listener email, I have my own. I'm a listener. My own question.


OK, because I know you went to the Sunday service. Sunday service Sunday. Yeah. Cognacs doing. And I never really asked you about it. But now since compnay is right. Yes. Running running for is easy. Right.


It's you never know. Like what is this real. Is he running for president. Is this a stunt. Right. Does he just have a record of him and Elon Musk were together the other day and Ellen's on board with this. Yes.


You know, Vice President Elon, I don't know any vice president, maybe Secretary of State Henry Kissinger had to be like secretary of state or something because he wasn't born here. I'm telling you, we live in a simulation. This is crazy. It's becoming what? It's becoming the watchmen. Yeah. Only if Kanye wins will we be to watch. But, you know, it's so it's a little background. We don't know if he's running because in order to run, you have to get signatures and get on the ballot in different states, blah, blah.


Who cares about that? And he's already he's already not he's already missed the deadline. But there's more there's there's more deadlines coming. Let's just take a beat on that until we get a sense of what's actually real.


Yeah, let's do that. But but tell us your story about going to the service, because what is he is he a pop star, spiritual leader with this group?


I think Kanye defies definition, doesn't he? He does. He's a he's a he's you know, he's he's basically a cultural icon. Is there anybody who has who wields more cultural influence than Kanye West?


I don't know, Beyonce, maybe, I don't know. Not not very many people, I mean, it's unbelievable the influence that that guy has had, not just on music, but on culture or fashion, a whole variety of subject matter.


Maybe his wife and he he he lives not too far from me. And I remember when he first started doing the Sunday service thing and I thought, that's sort of cool. Like, wow. Like he's doing. I thought it was like in his backyard or something like that.


Right. And I was out running on a trail near my house not long after I'd heard about that for the first time. And I started to hear gospel music and I realized, oh, my goodness, this is this is where it's like it's happening. It was a Sunday morning and I ran they they had, like, all kinds of security. You couldn't get too close to it. But I could see from a distance like, oh, that is the thing.


And there are all these people there.


And I remember thinking. I got to figure out how to get in on this like I want a vehicle, I want to get invited, I want to see I want to witness this experience right. Because this is really interesting and unique. And everyone's dressed in white, right? Everyone's wearing white. They're all there's there's music happening. It didn't look like there were that many people in attendance, probably just his friends and his family. And I just remember thinking, not only am I do I want to figure out how to be invited to this to see it.


I'm going this is going to happen.


Like, I just it was a weird there's a I don't know, Kanye like. Right. I've no n or anything like that. I just thought somehow that's going to happen.


And it did happen in the way that it happened. Is that our friend Mel Nargus, I was like out running and I posted an Instagram story and I was like, hey, you can hear the music.


Like, this is my trail. Like, you could kind of I just shared it and she saw that and texted me. And she's like, where is that exactly? Like, I want to know exactly where that's happening. And I just like, dropped a pin on a map and I sent it to her. She's like, I'm going to have my birthday party on that little piece, that little mound of dirt out on that trail.


I was like, good luck figuring out how to make that hat. Like, how do you even get a permit? Like, who do you even call? Just like, don't worry about it. Like she produces all our retreat's. You know, she she's amazing. Like, she knows how to figure this stuff out. And sure enough, she knew a park ranger and sorted it out and got the permission to be able to host like an evening dinner party, like out in the middle of this field on this thing, on this state owned nature preserve, basically.


So we go to this dinner and there's, you know, I don't know, thirty or forty people there. And it's beautiful. The sun's setting. It's a lovely evening and we're enjoying ourselves. And we're, of course, all talking about like this is actually where this Sunday service thing is going on. You know, how does that like I wonder what he's going to do with it.


And we're all it's the topic of conversation naturally. And in the distance, I see a guy walking up with two little kids like, well, you could too far away to identify, but dark complected. And I remember joking to to Julian, I was like, oh, there's Konya is going to come over and see how we're doing. Come on.


And as he got nearer and nearer, I was like, actually kind of looks like fun. And and then he just walked right up to our group and I was like, oh my God, that's Kanye West. He's like, coming to your birthday party now, like, how about that?


So I was like, come on, we got to go over and talk to him. He was on the other side of that, like where the dinner was happening. So Julie and I walk over and he's talking he starts talking to Mel and he's with his daughter and his daughter's friend. And they had just walked up. He lives nearby and he just walked up to his he put these boulders around the perimeter of it and his kids wanted to play.


His daughter wanted to play on that. So he just came up for no reason, just by himself. And he's like, what's going on here? And we explained to him and and it was wild. Like he was like, oh, that's cool. Like he wanted to know who he was. Very genuine, grounded presence, gracious, kind.


Like it was a very cool experience to just talk to him. And that was that. And then he.


Oh, and then we were and we kind of I was like, all right, we got to ask if we can come to the thing or like drop it. And he's like, here's the number of my assistant or whatever. Like she'll hook it up. And then sure enough, like we were able to go the following Sunday.


So Julie and I went to the thing and it was wild, you know, it was what happens is you start with a sermon or you you drive up, you would drive up to this like sort of staging parking lot that was still maybe a half mile away from the actual site. And they have all kinds of people in all the way, you know, and then they're like this way and they're kind of guiding you in what direction to go. And and then you just congregate in a circle around this.


He had built up this mound like in the middle where the choir would went up there, all the musicians where they were performing.


And there were probably, I don't know, maybe. Less than 100 people in attendance to watch, and it had really nothing to do with Kanye. He didn't make himself really. He was participating. But it wasn't like the Kanye show. It was all about this choir and these musicians.


He was good. He put the music together, though, right? I'm sure he came up with, you know, the whole program. Yeah. But it wasn't like, oh, he's going to get on the mic and he's going to talk like it was none of that. Like he was very much in the background. He didn't say anything. No, no, no. Nobody really. There was a choir director and there was very little talking.


It was really just music. So it's like the old House of Blues, like Sunday brunch with gospel. But without the the I don't know, I never went to that. So I don't know what that what that's like. And it went on for maybe an hour or an hour and a half and it was cool and it's awesome.


It was really lovely, great music. And it was wild. Like I was like, oh, I think that's Brad Pitt over there. No way. Come on. There are definitely some interesting people there, you know, but and that was it like then I mean, I don't know so. Well, another thing that was interesting about that is that then I kind of shared a couple of pictures on Instagram about how much I enjoyed that. And, you know, people were there were a lot of people that gave me shit for that because he's polarizing, also polarizing.


He's poor. You know, he had worn the the the Magga hat and the whole thing. And so for that, he'd worn the back of that. I think so. Yeah, I think so. And I was just there to experience this creative expression that I thought was kind of an amazing thing. That's what's most important to him is like creative freedom and creative. Well, I think. I think. There is a courage and a fearlessness in his creative expression, because he he's not he's constantly iterating right.


He's never stuck in any particular lane. And the minute you try to define him, he pivots and does something completely different. Yeah. And I think there's a lot to be learned from that in, you know, and it begins with. The the way in which he created his music and how that juxtaposed juxtaposing that against current trends in hip hop at the time, like he's always been an innovator. Did you see there was a GQ? They did a spread on his, like, Montana ranch and like no plans that he has to these architectural plans for what he wants to do with this property.


It's like it's it's wild. Why is it every rich guy have a Montana ranch? I don't know. You don't hear of, like, women? Maybe it's Wyoming. I'm like, Reese Witherspoon doesn't have the Montana. It's always guys with their Montana ranch. I guess Reese Witherspoon, Montana ranch over that. Yes. She'll have a she probably is a. All right. So that's the big Kanye story. Make it make it what you will.


I like the Kanye story. I hope he's not running for president. Personally, I think that would be good for our on our man show. All right. Let's get into John Brown's question. It's interesting because it gets to kind of stuff that we were talking about just in terms of personal paralysis and satisfaction or dissatisfaction. I'm 44 with a wife and three kids, and I want so badly to take a bold step into the unknown. What advice would you give me if I cornered you at a coffee shop one morning?


Hey, John. I'm sympathetic to that question, although I have very few facts to go on here in order to answer this, I think the first thing I would say is why a bold step like what's going on in your life right now where you feel compelled to not just. Make a change, but make a bold change, and I think you need to answer that for yourself first, right? Like, what is what's the discontent or the the I don't know.


What would it call what would you call it? Like the the lack of groundedness that that gives you that kind of anxiousness? Yes. That's what it intends to set up, right. Yeah. Like, yeah, that's what I see in that. Like, why does it have to be bold. So understanding that I think it's the first step to trying to figure out what to do next. You have three kids, you have a wife, you're forty four, I don't know what your occupation is, I don't know what your satisfaction with your occupation is.


I don't know if this bold step that you want to make is professional or personal. So that makes it challenging to answer this. But I think I would I would presume you're meaning professional when you have three kids and a wife. I would caution you from being too bold. I think that it's romantic, this idea of quitting your job and, you know, sailing to Argentina with cans of tuna right in your boat or something like that.


You have it. I know. But I'm just saying, like, if you're feeling stuck like that, you can romanticize these other paths for yourself without fully thinking them through. Yeah. So short of a bold step, my suggestion to you would be, what can you do right now that doesn't require you to burn your life down to the ground? Right. Like whether it's a side hustle or just finding something that brings you happiness, that you can lend greater expression to your daily life would be the place to start.


Just because you're you have something in your life that's not functioning properly doesn't mean that you have to cast aside everything else and do something super drastic, you know? You know, there is a pragmatism to all of this because those bold steps, although sexy, have ramifications for the other people in your life. And, of course, you have to think all of that through.


So the advice that I would give you if you cornered me in a coffee shop would first be a bunch of questions that I would need answered in order to to to give you that advice. But I think it begins with being intentional about how you're spending your time on a daily basis and having the mindfulness to carve out sections of your day every single day that are just for you, where you can invest in that one thing, that one activity, that one practice that can bring you a little bit more joy and also perhaps be a stepping stone towards that bold step that you can take at a later time.


Love it, and I think that mindfulness thing that you're referencing kind of gets us into the next question. The question was from John Pierce. Tell us about some of your mentors. But you hadn't really we don't want to go there. So I think a better question is, what about you talk about mindfulness a lot. So my question for you kind of piggybacked off. John's question would be kind of can you describe your mindfulness practice and how did you get into it?


Was there a spiritual mentor or someone that that kind of guided you into mindfulness?


Well, I would start by saying that my mindfulness practice is far from perfect. And I say that not only is a reminder to myself that I can improve tremendously on what I'm currently doing, but also because I think people think of mindfulness practices as some sort of standard that's hard to live up to. We quantify it and then say it has to look like this. And if you're not doing this, then you're falling short. And when people feel like they can't do that or they fall off a program, then they abandon the practice altogether.


The first thing I would do is define what is mindfulness practice mean? It can be formal meditation, but mindfulness is broader than that in the sense that. It's something that we can be doing at all times, like how can I be more mindful in this moment so that I can impart the best piece of advice that I'm capable of giving? Well, it means that I have to be present. It means that I have to ground myself and take a breath and calm my disposition enough so that.


What I'm expressing is done with clarity and. Purpose so we could be in a mindfulness practice right now, mindfulness does not necessitate formal meditation, per say, but mindfulness is certainly a byproduct of a formal meditation practice. So my mindfulness practice involves a combination of formality and informality. I do have a formal meditation practice that I do every morning for 20 minutes, I shouldn't say every morning because it's not every morning I'm catching myself in that.


But the goal is every morning, the goal is every morning. And I most and I fall short of that all the time.


So the key with that is if you miss a day not to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but just to start again the next day, 20 afternoon, whenever you have it, or if you have five minutes or if you have two minutes or if you have time for one inhale and one exhale and.


That can be a mindfulness practice then it's about. A constant process of reminding myself throughout the day. To be more present in whatever it is that I'm doing left to my own devices, I'm running all kinds of scenarios like everybody else, I'm busy. I'm running all kinds of scenarios, ashes of that. Why didn't I call that guy back? I got to do that thing. That person let me down. I owe that person a phone call. This guy was supposed to get back to me and he didn't.


You know the drill, right? So. How can I just let go of that and be present and often that's with paying attention to my breath and also just that gentle reminder like, oh, I'm doing that thing. Let's come back to now. Let's come back to now. Let's come back to now. You think after a while you wouldn't have to do that anymore.


Maybe that's true for you. Not for me. But I will say the more rigorous I am in my daily formal meditation practice, the easier it is to be mindful throughout the day. The half life of that meditation practice is longer. And conversely, the half life of my varying emotional states is shorter. So if I get angry, I can. Get back to baseline more quickly if I'm frustrated. A quick reminder and back to baseline, and I think that's the real flex that you get when you build that muscle.


It's not that you become some Budha like individual. It's that you're more self aware of when your emotions are running you rather than the other way around. And you developed a facility to. Resume. A state of equanimity, hmm? You asked who the mentors are for this, I mean, you know, I've I've sat with gurus and I've spent time on meditation app, so there isn't one person that I can speak to. And I think it's important to not overcomplicate these things.


If all you're doing is sitting down for five minutes and you're paying attention to your breath and you're inhaling and exhaling, that's really all you need to know. You can go on your own journey to learn more about all of these specific techniques and find what resonates for you. But I'm reticent to like, say, this is the mentor. This is the person that you should follow.


It's a theory and the traditions vary. There's some yeah, of course, the traditions vary depending. But do you do it silent meditation for you or your mantra at all? No, I don't. Yeah, I'm not I'm not trained in TM, so I don't have a mantra. It's a silent breath practice. And I would say in addition to that, training is an active meditation for me. So if I'm out on the trail, if I'm riding my bike, that's a mindfulness practice and what I would call an active meditation.


But it's important to point out that that is not a formal meditation practice. And I think there's a lot of confusion. There are a lot of people think, well, I don't sit down in lotus position and meditate. And I'm not saying anybody has to sit in lotus position, but. Going out for a run, even if you're not wearing headphones, is not the same as a formal meditation practice, those it has value, but it's a qualitatively different experience.


And that's something that I had to learn because I used to think that I didn't need a formal practice because I go and spent all this time alone out in nature. That's good enough. But I can tell you from my own experience that the difference in how I feel and how I behave and how I interact with other people and the vicissitudes of my emotional state. Are much better when I'm engaged in that formal meditation practice, the active meditation aspect of it is a is a sort of cousin that adds additional benefit, but not at the expense of the more formal practice.


So you just pop out of the tent on the roof and just fold right into the lotus position and go, I make some coffee or make a tea and then I and then I do it.


No yoga first. No, no, no. I try to I try to do the meditation first first thing before anything, because also because if I don't do it right, then it becomes less and less likely that it's going to happen. So it's got to be the first thing. Yeah. And then I will journal a little bit. I do morning pages from the artist's way, OK? And then I either go out and train or I use the time for creative pursuits like this book right now.


So I'm actually not training very much at all because I'm on such a crazy deadline.


When do you watch your Kunhardt videos? Yeah. Is that like after lunch. That's after lunch. Yes. I go first thing right.


I wake up and your dive right in when you're maximally receptive. Yeah. Ideas. I have research to do so I got to carve out like seven to ten hours.


You have done your research, my friend Laurie Marvis, who is the one person you have yet to interview that is at the top of your list. And I guess we've already had Kurama and Bernie Brown, so maybe. Well, yeah, those are two that I would love to get.


It's funny, I don't have, like, some crazy list like that. I mean, I'd love to get Cartola on. He would be great. Who wouldn't want the rock? I mean. I mean, come on. Right. Like so we can talk about people like that, but.


It's similar to people always ask me, like, you know, what's your five year plan or what's the goal? What's the big thing?


It's like I don't I just never been wired like that. And I'm really much more in the moment, like, I'm just kind of feeling what's next. So my line of vision isn't. Lasered on or rooted in, like, I have to get this person, like I, I have a spreadsheet open where I just put names on as they pop into my head or somebody like, oh, that would be cool. So I don't forget, but it's not like I'm driving towards any one particular person.


I probably should have an answer to that question, but I don't know nobody.


OK, moving on.


We'll see who shows up. I'm trusting in the universe out to deliver me the best people. But we don't know about that here, though. Yeah, sure. What about the internal algorithm in my head that's deciding to cultivate the algorithm within it shall be delivered. Anna Nicole. Oh, Anna Nicole. How to find your own purpose. I've been living a very comfortable life up to now, but have really lost motivation to work or take care of responsibilities.


Everything is hard because I'm dragging my feet and waiting to the last minute to complete. How does one find their groove again or a sense of purpose when they don't even know what they want? I know it's vague, but it's how it rolls around in my head. I think this one is the reason I put this in the list is because I know a lot of people are struggling with quarantine. I know you we've talked about even your own family and issues that with quarantine, just like how it's challenging for so many people.


So I think that that would be a good one to kind of in context of of the moment we're in now.


Well, I think Anna's question is something that. Everybody can relate to on some level, right? We're all looking for greater purpose in our lives and we're all evaluating how we're living on a day to day basis against some standard, imagined or otherwise, of what our life could look like. So it's easy to say my life's not working. I should have this. Why am I not super excited when I wake up in the morning when I read this question?


I think what's instructive is, first of all, the fact that she says she's living a very comfortable life. Right. So there's almost like some guilt, like my life's been comfortable, so I shouldn't complain. Right.


Like I shouldn't I should just be happy with what I have. Right. But at the same time, if you're dragging your feet, if you're procrastinating, there's something that's perhaps a little bit out of function at the moment. So the first question I would ask is, what isn't working? Like perhaps do an inventory of what's suboptimal and try to set aside that guilt. Like you feel like it's indulgent for me because I live a comfortable life to make a list of things that aren't working, because I'm lucky and I'm grateful to have the job that I have or the apartment that I live in or whatever it is.


But if you can be rigorous and objective in that inventory of what's not working optimally, I think that's a starting place.


And then the elusive, ever elusive question of like, how do you find purpose? How do you go back? How do you or if you've lost it, how do you get it back? And I wish I could give you a pithy answer of here's how you do it. It's very difficult. Right? This is a. An individual journey that's going to look different for everybody, but I think fundamentally for everybody it begins with. An inside job like this is an internal search, right, if you don't know what your purpose is, I can't tell you what your purpose is.


You have to discover that for yourself. And that journey of self discovery requires you to look inward also in a rigorous and objective way to try to figure out what it what what it is about who you are that a makes you uniquely you and B, that you feel inspired to uniquely express. And the only way of answering that question or unlocking it is to not only ask yourself those questions, but to begin experimenting. Right. Like try these different things.


What do you what brings you, Joy? Try to remember that thing when you were a kid that you used to like to do, not because somebody told you to do it, but because you had a natural inclination towards it. As we grow older, we tend to let go of those things or we shift our our perspective on them and decide that they are the purview of a young person. And as a responsible adult, it's no longer OK for you to engage in those things.


So the more that you can connect with that inner child, I think, and try to remember what some of those behaviors and activities are and build those back into your life, I think is a good means of connecting with yourself that might lead you to some discoveries around purpose. And I also think that. This can be. Indulgence. So rather than flogging yourself, like, what is my purpose and I need a purpose, maybe just go help somebody else out.


Yeah, you know, the more that you can get out of your own way and your own self obsession and just make yourself available to somebody who has less than you. And it doesn't mean that you have to go volunteer at a soup kitchen. All of that. That's perfectly fine. It could be calling up a friend that you haven't talked to in a long time or somebody that, you know is having a hard time and just letting them know that you're available to them.


And I think when you build that into a habit where being of service to other people in a selfless way. Is a reflex rather than a burden or an obligation that in my experience and what I've seen with other people is probably the best way to set you on a trajectory that's going to connect you with some kind of purpose in your life. I know for myself, when I'm of service to other people, my problems don't matter or they get smaller.


And the truth is, when you're the more selfless you are, first of all, the happier, the happier you are. It's very gratifying when you're helping other people like it gives your life meaning. So when I say how do I find purpose, what I hear is like my my life doesn't feel like it has meaning. Well, everybody can build more meaning into their life by helping other people write.


Your life immediately becomes more meaningful when you're of service to others. How do you grow back? Be of service to others? I love that. That's great.


And experimenting you could even do on a daily basis. You can't find your purpose, maybe your purpose with a capital P on a daily basis. But like I remember, I was in New York with my friend Anthony Denby a long time ago and I woke up, I was staying with him and he's like, what's your purpose today or what's your intention today? Hmm. And and I, I never do that. You know, don't wake up with a specific intention.


And I felt kind of like simultaneously like, wow, what am I doing wrong? And then also, OK, I just had connection, you know, connection, connect. And later that day I was on the subway that got stopped in the middle of the track for 25 minutes. And people were losing their minds because they were busy or whatever. And this guy next to me was like cursing and freaking out. And instead of like just like getting up and leaving, I started to talk to him because that was the intention.


And that's like what you're saying with experimenting. You can start that if you don't know where to volunteer just yet or who to be of service to and wake up and give yourself a purpose every morning. What's today's purpose? Yeah, and it can be what I love about that story is if you decided that day, your intention was was connection and you're stuck on that subway, that just means to engage. That dude is having a hard time on the subway and maybe make his day a little bit better.


That's it. Yeah. I mean, just talked with him and talked through his problem and that's what we did. Yeah. Yeah. Meanwhile, there was this weird like six foot five skinhead that was making like figure eights in the hall, like stomping in his combat boots that you didn't want to look at. That was scary, that guy. All right. And New York City question five, Brian Hollander asks, What's up, Brian? Here's a subject that may be at the heart of the great divide we are seeing getting wider in America, cognitive dissonance to people looking at the same event and walking away with extremely opposite opinions.


I love to hear your thoughts. Well, this relates directly to what we've already been talking about. Yeah. Listen to Rabbit Hole. And it basically goes down a rabbit hole of how we've arrived at this place. I think there's a broader conversation about confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance, you know, and how the brain works. It is interesting that that, you know, two different people could watch the same news program and walk away with completely different ideas about it.


And then I think the larger problem is how entrenched we become in those ideas, such that when we're presented with a counterfactual narrative, no matter how compelling that narrative, it it's irrelevant. It doesn't matter. It's not going to move the needle in terms of how that person is seeing the world, whether it's the Trump voter who can't be talked out of voting for Trump or the super liberal person who, you know, sees the world in a specific way.


The idea that you're going to change these people's minds, I think is, you know, we all know how difficult that is. And and what is that about? Right. And I think. It has a lot to do with, again, to bring it back to the beginning of this conversation, disenfranchisement and disempowerment, as human beings were hardwired to want to be part of a community of a tribe. And we align ourselves with various teams, whether it's the Philadelphia Eagles or, you know, the the Los Angeles Lakers, like look at sports and how we trivialize that politics are a close cousin of that.


And I think as as. As swathes of the population become progressively more disenfranchised, there's a sense of lack of control and. I think there's an agency that develops when somebody can latch on to a certain tribe and craft an identity around that, right. This is who I am. This is my identity. And and you get strength from that no matter who you are. Like, if you're in the Democratic Party, this is who I am. This is what we stand for.


This is our values. And I'm going to defend my my membership status in this tribe against. Everything else, no matter what facts that I'm presented with, so then the question becomes, how did we become so susceptible to these silos, these tribes, and why do we cling to them so strongly? And maybe it has something to do with the fact that the connections that we have in our own communities have been fractured. And this is taking the place of that, whether it's the church or the four club or whatever it is that in the 1950s, through the 70s, people used to do within their respective neighborhoods, a lot of that has gone away and we've become suburbanized and, you know, cul de sac ised to such an extent that we no longer yeah, we no longer have those connections.


That fabric that weds us to our local communities doesn't quite exist in the way that it used to. So as human beings, we're finding other ways of doing that. So we are doing it digitally and and maybe because we don't have those in person tactile bonds, that's why we're holding on so tightly to the identities that we fabricate that are based on ideologies rather than proximity. Mm hmm. It's that's an interesting one. I mean, what you're talking about we're talking about is looking at something everyone's watching, watching the same thing and coming away with different opinions.


But the fact is, we're not watching the same thing. Right. So that's also part of it. That's part of it. Yeah. Yeah. So we're watching different angles and the same thing. Yeah.


And well, there is no there is no unified source of quote unquote truth anymore. We're all self-selecting our information silos. We're all on different diets, you know, physically. Also, I think perception of disenfranchisement is interesting because. You know, a lot of it is a perception thing, you know, like where you perceive yourself in the greater whole and when you there's two ways of looking at feeling small in this big world to me. The healthy view is I'm a small fragment of this great web and I'm connected to all of it and it's all part of me and I'm part of it.


And there's a there's a sense of responsibility that comes with that. And there's a sense of, you know, humility that comes with that being the small speck. And it's, you know, one pixel. Yeah.


In this in this tapestry or this picture, you're just a couple zeros and ones. Yeah, that's the Matrix was just part of the great algorithm, that green stream of like characters that's flowing down the Shangrila algorithm. But then the negative view of that is why do I feel so small? And these assholes are such big shots, you know, and like, what is disenfranchisement? Like if you have a place to live and some food on your plate and you're comfortable in your warm or whatever, like like how disenfranchised should you actually feel?


So it's like there's all these moving parts to the modern world now. And there's always been this way. And we watch American Beauty other night because we had to go back to the DVDs because our cable company fumbled the ball right on our move. And so we were watching that. And there's a great scene where the where what's the guy video. You know, the younger. Yes. Yes. What's his real name isn't. I know you mean.


Yeah, the classic scene of that. And he's his dad is like reading the morning paper and he's like, what's going on? Dad and dad goes, this country is going straight to hell.


Yeah. It's basically always been that. Yeah. It's just to remind our listeners and invite each other. These countries always been going straight to hell, I'm sure in the revolution, the day after the revolution, or there was like someone complaining about it. And every generation is told that like, oh, it's always been this way. Every generation shows up and then they say, yeah, but this time it really is. Yes. Well, I feel like so right now.


Maybe it is.


We can't end on that. No, no. But the point is, is that there's always that kind of like disenfranchisement is a point of view. I always think of it that way, like we're in charge of our emotional perspective. I mean, don't you think I mean, isn't that isn't that what you're trying to we try to kind of tell people and tell our kids and tell everybody is like that. No one tells you. No one can tell you how you feel or how you're going to react to something.


You have control over that. Yes, that agency resides within all of us. And in a culture and a world where we feel like that, that our agency has been stripped from us, it's important to realize that there are still certain things that only you have control over. You can't control the insanity of the chaotic world. You can't control what other people are going to do. You can't control the news cycle. All you can control is your reaction to all of that and how you comport yourself.


So it always goes back to mindfulness. The more mindful that you can be, the more. Economists, you can carry yourself, the better equipped you are to manage whatever problems you encounter, whether they be. Related to disenfranchisement or your lack of sense of control over your life always turn back inward and as Guru Singh always says. Less emotion, more devotion. I love that right, like. Rather than getting all emotional about things that you can't control.


Check yourself. What are you devoted to, what are you cultivating inside of yourself that. Can lead to greater self-awareness, self-improvement. All you can control is yourself. The path forward is to be the best version of yourself so that you're equipped to handle all those other things that you cannot control, and the byproduct of that is you become a force of harmony in this world and disintegrate dissonance.


And music is a tool to be used to make people feel. And then it always wants to come back to harmony like a piece of music, always wants to come back. Dissonance always merges back. So that's a better note to end on. Yes, it will. If we if we cultivate that. Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Yeah, I think we did it. All right, man, thanks for having me. Episode three of Roll On.


I like being your hype.


Man is good, man. How you feel. Feel good. I feel good. I like it when you read my resume though. That really. Oh, I forgot to do that. No you don't. Yeah, because my wife reads me my resume every time I read it to you. Yeah. But sometimes you record it for you as a major. There are a lot more impressive if she's pissed.


Adam Skolnick, co-author of Can't Hurt Me, author of One Breath, One Breath, New York Times contributing writer, environmentalist, activist and now audio pontificator.


Heidman Yeah, audio pontificator. That's like the podcast version of Talking Head, right. Audio pontificator. Awesome. You can find Adam online. You could see his is digital ones and zeros streaming across the Matrix at Adam Skolnick on Twitter and Instagram. Don't forget to hit that subscribe button on YouTube, Apple or Spotify.


Thanks for listening and watching everybody check the notes. We're going to put links up to everything that we talked about today. You can find that on the specific episode page at ritual dot com and generally on the YouTube version. We put links up to stuff as well. If you want to contribute a question for us to consider answering on the show, you can do that on our Facebook group, which is the Rich Role podcast on Facebook. I'll put a link up to that as well on YouTube and the show notes.


Also, if you join the Facebook group, you can also it would be great if you could contribute to that survey that we've put up there as well.


We should probably think about getting a voice mail option for people like that so that we could then we could, like, play their audio. The question instead. Well, I am getting a landline. Can I make you an inside? Yes, I can do that. I think you need it. Like you get the Google Voice. These phone numbers exist.


Like, I'll figure that out. All right. I can get that out and we'll try to move forward with that. And then I will put up a new post for the questions so we can have. OK. Oh, right. Yeah, cool. Something organized about that awesome man.


So see you back here with another version of this in two weeks. Until then, be well. More devotion, less emotion, right? Love it. I want to thank everybody hoping on the show today, Jason Kamela for audio engineering, production shown and interstitial music. Blake Curtis, he's right over here. You can't see him for videoing today's show, doing all the short clips and creating all the social media stuff. Thanks, Blake.


Jessica Miranda for graphics, Georgia Waili for copywriting, Dekay also right over here. What's up, doc?


Advertiser Representation and the music by Tyler Trapper. And I appreciate you guys. Thanks a lot. See you back here a couple of days. Another great episode. I love you.


Piece plants.