The cameras stopped rolling on Vanderpump Rules, and that's when it all got real. I'm Jax Taylor. And I'm Brittany Cartwright. And we are talking about everything on our podcast, When Reality Hits. Marriage and.

Parenthood, friendships.

And feuds. Definitely feuds. And life before, during, and after Vanderpump Rules. So listen to and follow.

When Reality.

Hits with Jax.

Taylor and Brittany Cartwright. At Apple podcast, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Today on the TMZ podcast.

Hello and welcome to the TMZ podcast. I'm Charlie Cotton, and today I'm joined by TMZ's most lovable lawyer.

Things must Be Getting Legal Upbound here.

You ready for that? Derek Koffman's here to discuss some legal battles, one involving Kevin Costner, who claims he's homeless, one involving Kevin Spacey, who says he's going to be uncancelled in return to Hollywood, essentially. Wow. And finally, Amber Heard speaking Spanish.

Beautiful. What a nice note to end on. We've got two very heavy stories. Homelessness, you've got sexual assault allegations and then it's like a woman speaking Spanish.

That should be a nice ending. How do you say stay tuned in Spanish?

Oh, boy, you're putting me on.

The spot. I know a song.

That's a very specific newsy term. I can do like, astolawigo, see you later.

But that's an easy one. Everyone knows astolawigo, amigo. Is that right?

Yeah. Okay, great. That's goodbye, friend. See you later, friend.

I'm going to end the episode like that. Stay tuned.

Let's jump into the Kevons. The first of our two Kevons.

The first of our two Kevons is Kostner. Kevin Kostner. Well, he and his wife are in a bitter divorce separation. As it stands right now, he's shooting a movie in Utah. She's at the family home still with the kids. They got three teenagers.

Essentially to him squatting on his property.

Well, she's supposed to move out. Their pre and up agreement had that she would move out after the divorce papers were filed. She'd have a month to move out. Well, it's been over a month now. She's not moving out. She's filed a restraining order against Kevin. And now he's saying, Look, I can't return to my house after I finish the movie. I'm homeless.

He's saying. This is extremely nasty. So you ever heard the expression all's fair in love and war? I have. I think Kevin Costner thought, I've had a messy divorce. He had a very messy divorce earlier in his life where he lost a lot of money, and it was a very sour experience. So in this marriage, he's like, Let's get a prenup, and then if things fall apart, it'll be smooth.

It'll be easy.

Divorce is never smooth. I don't care how many pieces of paper you have. During smooth times, when you sign these documents, you hope that, Oh, this will govern how things go when we break up so we don't have to do everything in public in the court. It doesn't matter. If someone wants to make it nasty, they can still make a nasty prenat or not. So I thought this was an interesting lesson in that regard. I don't know if this is going to get better for Kevin until he cuts a large check. It seems like she wants to use whatever leverage she has. And one is staying in the house. Even though she's been ordered to move out, he says the in up, says what it says, until you get a sheriff to pull her out of the house, which will be a big public spectacle.

Because she's probably saying, look, if you get a sheriff to come in, I'm doing it in front of the kids.

I'm going to do it in front of the kids. It's going to be nasty for you. You're going to look heartless. You're Kevin Costner. You got this brand. You're going to look like a real jerk if you pull me out of this house. So how are we going to solve this? You can see that.

Interaction, right? Yeah, absolutely. It's going to be so interesting to see how this plays out because she's squatting there against the law somewhere while against their contract, definitely. And it's like a, I dare you. Yeah.

I dare you. Contracts are broken all the time. She knows how bad it would look for him to call the Sheriff on his wife, who is the mother of, I believe, they have three kids?

Yes.

Three teenagers. It's a bad look. Kevin's like, I have rights under this contract. It's very clear. I mean, this should just be her moving out, but she doesn't want to move out, apparently. And the other thing you've learned from these documents is that she's still using the credit card, apparently charging $95,000, which is an eye popping number to us normies. You can imagine spending $95,000.

That's just one couch or.

Something for them. Kevin Costner is worth so many millions of dollars. It's beyond... It's hard to fathom.

You're saying that she could have run it up more?

I'm saying it's not as bad as it looks. I guess I'm saying she could have run it more. I bet the limits are in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Obviously, if you can put $95,000 on a card, you and I can't do that. I know I can't, and I'm going to assume you don't have a $95,000 limit because the credit card company is like, I'm not sure he's good for that on a monthly basis. Kevin has those limits. Although that number is eye popping, I think it's par for the course with very rich people.

Where does the lawyer in you... How's this going to play out? What do you think is going to happen? She's holding him over a barrel right now. Part of China is a blackmail, almost trying to.

Blackmail him. It feels like it. It feels like she's trying to shake him down and she doesn't have the goods on the paper. I think he's going to win this motion. I think it's pretty clear on the law that the preneup will say what it says. She's not moving out and she's squatting. The judge will have to look at that and say, This is what the contract says. I'm going to order you to vacate the house. Then he's going to have to take that order to the sheriff, though. I don't know if Kevin will do that. I think he might win the day and then say, Look, do you want me to call the sheriff? Because now I got an order and I'm willing to look a little bit bad. I might take this next step. It'll be embarrassing for you if the sheriff pulls you out. So here's a couple of extra hundred thousand. I think that's how.

It ends. Has she got any other plays up her sleeve? Before she leaves the house, is she allowed to pee on the carpet or something? Is she.

Allowed to do anything? People have their house foreclosed on and they're spray painting the.

Walls and stuff? Half of it is mine right now. So I'm going to do this to it.

I think the card she holds, if she's willing to breach this contract, she's signaling that, You've done something that really upset me in our marriage. Because she.

Filed for divorce, too.

She filed.

She he was the.

One who filed. He said he was blindsided. You remember this? So something he did, according to her, is pretty unpleasant. She was mad. She did it in a fit of emotion because he said, I was blindsided. I didn't know we were getting a divorce. She has the card of I can blast you. I can take your whole image of Yellowstone Good Guy and break it.

So she's going to say, Look, I've got dirt on you. Maybe.

She's already willing to not follow the preen up on the when I have to leave the property. So you're signaling to your adversary, who is Kevin at this point, that, I don't care about contracts. Maybe there's an NDA that says I can't blab, but I'm already willing to break this provision. Are you sure I'm not going to just blast you in tabloids?

So she's got... I mean, yeah. It's like, it's hard, right? If you and your wife broke up, God forbid, she would have so much dirt on.

You, Derek. It'd be really unpleasant when she confirmed all these bad things that have been said about me in the room. She's like, Yeah, that one's true.

Yeah. But I guess you don't have as much of a shiny, squeaky clean image that she could like. You know what I mean? Kevin does.

There's certain people who are just undefamable, right? You defend yourself enough.

It's like, He's got a small penis.

What are you going to do? Yeah, he's my husband. Sure. Sure. You want the proof? Yeah, I'll say it as well. He's confirmed everything. I don't know. Kevin does have a lot to lose, though, right? Kevin's brand is wholesome a little bit, although he does have the previous divor. So if you look up Kevin Costner, there's been some things in his past. He's forgotten about it, though, by the way. But you forgotten about it, man. He's the Yellowstone guy. He's filled with dreams. And he doesn't want this nastiness, especially if he can cut a check. He's got a lot of money. So if he can cut a check to avoid it and keep earning $20 million every time he's on a TV show, it's an investment in yourself, right? Keeping her quiet would be an investment in itself. So I do think she'll end up squeezing a little bit more money. That's how these divor play out. Although it's nasty right now until we get to that point where they're like, Oh, let's put our weapons down.

They're just firing a bullet. There's nothing like looking on and seeing a nasty divorce. It's a bit sadistic in a bit. I'm glad it's not me. I agree. It's interesting to watch. Yes, go on.

Here's the last thing I want to say. I think there's one part of what Kevin Costner is doing that's a little bit disingenuous. They live in this fabulous 145 million.

Dollar home. It's like, how does that even possible?

And he's saying, look, I've given her a million dollars. I've given her another 200,000. She has around 1.45 million. I'm assuming he's got some interest. She can go find another home because to people, Normie's 1.45 million sounds like, oh, my gosh, go get any home you want. But he knows that in Los Angeles, a 1.45 million dollar home is going to be considerably more modest and a big departure from what she's living in. So him saying like, Hey, there's a way to go get a house. No big deal. She's got over a million dollars. Can you believe it? Is not really genuine, right?

He's given her a 1 % of what their current house cost to find a new one.

And he's saying, Hey, go find a lovely little spread. And she's got the three kids. Can you imagine them going from the 145 million dollar estate with horses to living somewhere like I live?

Couldn't take a horse into an apartment.

No, certainly not.

Okay, onto our next Kevin Spacey. Kevin Spacey, he is about to go through a horrible court case where he's accused of... He's got 12 counts of sexual assault by four men, and it allegedly occurred between 2001 and 2013. Well, he's saying, When I'm exonerated, when I'm shown to be innocent of these charges, I'm returning to Hollywood. He goes, People are knocking at my door right now saying, Stand by, Kevin, because we're going to cast you in our movies when you are exonerated. Do you think that really Kevin Spacey, after all of this, after all the cancel culture stuff, could he return and be in blockbusters?

I think he's completely delusional about how this works. And here's why. I think, yes, he's facing 12 counts. He may be found not guilty on these charges. I think that's entirely within the realm of reason. It's very hard to prove old cases. This happened a long time ago, 2001 to 2013. The problem is that's not the way Hollywood works. Look at Jonathan Major's. It doesn't matter necessarily whether you're convicted of these crimes. What matters is the court of public opinion, which has already determined that Kevin Spacey is a creep. They've made that judgment. It doesn't really matter what 12 people on a jury say about it at this point. Plus, there's so many allegations. He's a little bit in the Cosby Weinstein category of like, do we want to bring him back and then more people come out of the woodwork? I don't know. It doesn't seem like firm ground. Jonathan Major is in a better position because really there's the one incident going on criminally and then some rumors of old girlfriends and things like that. Maybe you can manage that situation. For Kevin Spacey, if you're Hollywood, you're worrying like, Okay, we cast him.

We give him 10 million bucks to come do this role. He's a tremendous actor. I give him full credit for his acting, and I miss some of his performances. But how do you do that? Then the news comes out. The next Anthony Rap comes out. Even if it's not true, it's just he's tard with this for his life.

Because he's been known to play quite creepy characters. What happens if he plays a creepy character next and you're like, Okay, now it's even more believable.

This is a good question. Could he now turn heel and just be a villain in a bunch of movies? Maybe his brand is creep. And if you want a creepy guy and you want to project that, maybe you can cast him. Although, man, you got to have him on late night shows promoting the movie. Can he sit there with Steven Colbert and joke about how easy it was for him to play a creep because he's an actual creep. It's a very delicate balance. I don't think he's got all these offers knocking down his door, but he wants to position himself as the hero of the anti cancel movement.

He wants to be the next.

Johnny Depp. Yes.

He wants to go, look at these allegations against me. Once I beat them, I'll be in Pirates of the Caribbean again, baby.

But he's not. Johnny's not yet in Pirates, although he's on his way. Do you consider the situations very very different, though. I consider Johnny had a messy relationship with Amber Heard. He had some allegations in his past relationships, but it was contained. Johnny Depp seems like a loony weird guy, but I think Kevin Spacey has a lot of different allegations. He's fielding it like Cosby and Weinstein, not like Johnny Depp, which we only think of Amber Heard.

Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because I think we're more in a place these days where we want to forgive people and give people a second chance. The whole woke movement is still big, but it's less as like, I don't know, you're gone for good these days when it used to be you're gone. But I don't think someone like Harvey Weinstein or R. Kelly or Bill Cosby or people who are little bit like being really convicted. The public opinion definitely made up their mind about those guys. I don't think there's a way for them to come back. Kevin Spacey is one of those poster childs for the whole movement. He says that in 10 years time, everyone will have forgotten about all of these charges, and he'll just be remembered by his work. I don't necessarily.

Buy that. I think he's crazy. It depends, I guess, where you fall on these allegations. He hasn't been convicted, and he's saying, if I'm exonerated, what are we doing? He won the Anthony Rapp civil trial, which was the big start to all of this. Anthony Rapp is also an actor, said he went to a party and was molested by Kevin Spacey. Anthony Rapp lost that case and he lost it civilly. And that's a big deal because civil is easier to prove. Civil is just like, is it slightly more likely or not? 51 % of it, believe it.

It's not innocent to a proven guilty. That's more criminal.

That's a high standard. That's really hard to prove. So winning a criminal case is like OJ lost the civil case but won the criminal case because civil cases are easier to prove. So Kevin Spacey, if he clears all of them, he will be able to say, look, I haven't even been found civically liable. I haven't been found criminally liable. Why do we believe in any of this? He will be waving that flag to directors and producers saying, I'm safe. This is all nonsense. But there's so many. There's just so many.

He should just do cameo or something. Everyone who wants to pay, it's like a subscriber thing. If you want to like a... You're right.

He's.

Still famous. He's still famous. Do cameo. You can't take away fame. Only fans would be good.

Kevin Spacey, only fans would be very interesting. A lot of people would pay for membership and then be horrified, potentially. Interesting move for his career.

Okay, speaking of Johnny Depp.

Yeah.

Amber Heard, we just got an interview with her on the street, all TMZ style, from a Spanish journalist talking to Amber in Spanish. And let's have a listen to the interview because she's fluent. She's fluent in Spanish.

Are we subtitled here?

Oh, it's subtitled. Let's just listen to the Spanish and you can translate for us afterwards.

Okay.

Wow, she's all smiles, perfectly fluent in Spanish. This is incredible.

She's got like the more than just being fluent, she's got the la la la. She got the sing songy nessto the...

Yeah, she seems like she is almost a native of Spain. It's pretty incredible. I think the expectation is that she'll be downtrodden and her life is in shambles. It doesn't look in shambles to me. Maybe she's just a good actress and putting on a brave face and smiling through it. I think she's all right. I think this is now her new life.

Right. Well, either this interview is a set up or it's not a set up.

Oh, yeah. Tell me the behind the scenes. What does this look like.

To you? She's a known set upper of interviews and paparazzi stuff. So it wouldn't surprise me if this was on the heels of Johnny Depp giving that million away to charity. There's good news about Johnny Depp. She calls up the agency and says, Hola. Is that Spanish?

That's Spanish. Go on. I think it's going to get worse from there.

And she pitches them, we'll split the money or whatever. Come and get me coming out of this restaurant or something. Then she memorizes all of the, you asked me this, I'll say this. She does a.

Crash course. I want to look like I'm a native. Here's my perfectly enunciated Spanish.

My thing is, if you asked her after this interview, where's the post office? She wouldn't be able to say a single thing. It's like she's just memorized these exact questions and these exact answers.

She's an actress performing a script.

Either that or she's loving life over there. She's doing really well. She looks as good as ever.

Where you're super skeptical, super cynical. Where do you fall on this? Do you think a set up? Do you think she needs an income stream because she's not making money from movies, so she sets up shots, gets a little income.

That way? I feel a bit biased because I'm one of the people who wants her to win. And I think maybe I'm in the minority there. A lot of people were very team Johnny and very anti Amber.

I'm in your minority.

That sounds a bit like... I didn't like that. I'm in your minority.

No, I agree with you. I watched that trial and I was horrified by the things I heard. And everyone just said everything she said was a lie. And I would just look at people and be like, Everything? It's really specific. Maybe she embellished some things. Maybe they had a messy divorce and you say some things that aren't true or like, shading the truth in your favor. But, geez, this was nasty. And he seems like a real jerk, and he seems awful. And we didn't know Johnny Depp was this weird where he was a rage head. And I didn't think he proved otherwise, really. I thought he said, She's wacky, too. And I believe she's pretty wacky. But wow, I walked away from that saying, He'll never recover from this.

And I've been proven wrong. I think the Court of Public Opinion was just very biased. I think the actual court was potentially swayed by the Court of Public Opinion. He's a huge celebrity. He's a huge celebrity. Everyone was fighting for Johnny. If I was her, I'm saying, I want a mistrial in the Court of Public Opinion. Let's do this whole thing over again.

It's one thing you can't get is a mistrial in the Court of Public Opinion. There should be a process for that. There should be. Want to revote?

I like her. And I don't know how much me liking her has to do with the fact that she's amazingly gorgeous. But I'm rooting for her. I hope that this is all for real. I hope that she continues her Spanish and it's sexy when she speaks Spanish.

To be honest. Maybe she could. Look, if it's real and not just what you said, she memorized a Spanish script and doesn't really speak Spanish, but if it's authentic and she speaks Spanish this well, she could become a Spanish movie star. Why not? I mean, she's amazingly beautiful. She's perfectly symmetrical. There's studies of Amber Heard's beauty being objective. Yeah. Semetri. So maybe she could do work with Almodivar, those guys, those Spanish language filmmakers and do Itumamuhtambien Part 2. Why not?

Or she could be a very good server at a tapist restaurant or something like that.

She could pull it off. Or that. I'm not sure that's as successful of an avenue. But look, she does seem happy. She's there with her daughter. We get these pictures of her in a park. I don't think this is the sad tale of woe that everyone wants to see out of Amber. At least that's not what she's showing public.

I'm glad. Viva La Amber.

Viva La Amber.

That's not Spanish is it? Viva La. Is that French?

It's like Elvis Spanish, like Viva Las Vegas.

Okay, well, thank you very much for joining me here today, Derek. Always a pleasure. And we'll see you all here tomorrow.