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I have a Z sticker on my face that I put a foundation over in the middle of my eyeballs and I need everyone on the video portion to ignore it. And for our audio side listeners, I look really good right now. So just envision that never looks better. I really indro.


While you not ready yet, let's go to Budha. Hey, guys, welcome back to Wild Till Nine, our weekly podcast hosted by myself, Laurie Iwai and my my better half Jeremy. And this episode is not sponsored by Dr. Pepper.


But it could be, but it could be Dr. Pepper. Oh, my gosh, guys, we actually got some our first ad reads last episode. So my engagement ring fund is cushier than it was one episode ago when it was at literally negative zero.


No, no, no, no. The negative like negative 15.


I know. I know. I know. We honestly, we we had to previously invest in a ton of equipment. And so my engagement ring fund was just drained, drained. It was small to begin with, drained.


I want to point out something that I think is crucial for the three negative comments that I saw who were mad that there were edits and cuts in the video and the audio portion and it alluded to us being fake. I want you to be aware that if we stopped every single time or kept the camera rolling every single time, Lauren had to put your nose on the mic or burp or cough or whatever else the podcast would be two hours. So you can thank us for that.


I see this right here. Yeah.


That it just is like so nice and abrasive. Anyways, welcome back. Stopped up roll rate download, follow on all of the platforms, do all of the things. We're excited to be here. I'm caffeinated. Jerry was honestly considering taking pre workout before this. I feel like he needed just like little punch to the face of energy.


Yeah, because this episode sucks. So what you're not going to do is go into it with that attitude. Yeah, everyone's going to understand why it's going to suck for me.


Oh, I'm going to say, where is the faith in our entertainment value? No, it's not that. I don't have faith in that. Well, that's aside.


I just have a cold, hard, black place in my heart for the entire topic for this episode.


So Jeremy is a recovering fuck boy.


Hi, my name is Jeremy. And I was affected and I was a guy because I am a fuck boy, but. Right, but you're recovering fuck boy, allegedly. So well, I just feel as if there's probably enough girls that I could round up to.


Yeah. And I just want to make a point to say that Jeremy is an incredible boyfriend, ninety nine point nine percent of the time is super.


What not knowing what you make it seem like. And then there's that point one percent. I mean, I no, Jeremy is a great boyfriend. He is a loyal as shit and is a great boyfriend. So I have cured him personally, individually. I am completely and utterly to thank for caring Jeremy of his fuck boy.


My mother.


Yeah, I think you're welcome, Donna.


So I have so many questions. I just feel like there's so much insight for the people to learn and like arm themselves with to hear from an ex fuck boy. Like I feel like that's so valuable. I want to point out that I started my fuck boy career before Fuck Boy was a thing.


And also I do want to say that this isn't just for males. I just feel like the term fuck boy is like the societal term and you can be a fuck girl, but that just doesn't have the same ring to it. So it's like all the genders, all of the stereotypes. It's it just the one name fuck boy.


I first off will not sympathize or try to excuse my or any ex fuck boy behavior, but I will give you some reasons as to why I thought it was a good idea at the time, ok. Eventually is this I feel as if this is like partial therapy and I would like a therapist fee, I feel like we're about to work some work through some like deep rooted issues here.


I think you should, of course, correct your your thoughts on where this is going.


No, it's going to be good. I know it. I can feel it. Well, what question can I answer first? I mean, I have so many questions. When is your earliest memory of being a fuck boy?


OK. I knew you were going to start with that. No one goes into being a fuck boy waking up on a Tuesday and going to face the day. It's not like the first day of first grade. And you're like, you got your new backpack on your mom's put your light up sneakers. It's not like you go into it going, what's my schedule look like today? You are a fuck boy. Three years later when you wake up and like you pissed off like half of L.A., OK, when you wake up and you have that wake up call of like, oh, you are being a dickhead and you got to knock that shit off and you do it for three more years.


My earliest memories of being a fuck boy weren't being a fuck boy. My earliest memories were were before that and thinking that that type of behavior was aspirational almost.


Oh, so you were like, what, on all those forms, like when you're a kid, the worksheets in school and what you want to be when you grow up and you wrote, Fuck boy, I know that is that's not how that what do you want to be.


You grow up and I think to be a boy. No, I think it's funny that we as a society, when we are watching Disney Channel and Nickelodeon as a kid, there's a winner and a loser. That's so true.


We want to be a winner. We don't want to be a loser. Losers forgotten. That guy sucks everything where I hate to tell everyone in the world, most people are on the losing side, like there's only one winner. There's only one first. Everybody else is somewhere in between there and that's OK. My rant here is that I think that I grew up with remember the teeth were here. Yeah, yeah. And you can't see them, but my ears, I'm six four and they fit my face now.


Right. My ears were full of groaning at baby in the womb. So you got a plane that you can fly through. My teeth. My ears are dumbo.


Dumbo would have been jealous of these flowers and I think I thought to myself like, wow, I want to be a winner one day. And I could have applied that in a lot more. I feel like, yeah, we could have gone for scholarships. Yeah. My mother was a vet too, and I think I just channeled a very specific type of winner in my head and went down. A few wanted to be a ladies man. I think the idea of like what I saw on in Hollywood of like a ladies man or an athlete or a star or whatever, like that sounds amazing.


I'm going to do whatever I can for that to be that.


Right. So how many girls would you say in high school? Just in high school. Did you bamboozle? Bamboozle. Yeah. How many girls did you bamboozle?


There's a big like in high school. I wasn't going out and I just like having rampant sex with everybody. There's a lot of just like good to know.


OK, we'll get to that later. No, like there was a lot of like making out with this girl once and that was like my check that box kind of thing.


I see. And then you made it with her best friend at the next party and the next weekend was that was like high school fuck boy was for you.


Right. OK, right. And then so with those two friends, be both mad at you. And that was like the beginning phases of it. That's a good way to piss off half of Rockford. Now, I did a little bit of that.


OK, all right. I mean, I will say that the aspirational and and then the first maybe a year or two of that was probably an awkward transition phase. That wasn't the fuck boy. That was just like the figuring out, like how things work. Right.


And like how to talk to girls and how to get the friend and the best friend to like you and then hate you at some point. Yeah, I feel like you were like fuck boy in training at that age.


Yeah. I don't think that this is putting me in the best of lights.


No, the thing is that you ended up OK, you're recovering. Fuck boy, you're an ex fuck boy and you're actually using your knowledge as an ex fuck boy to help others and again not sympathize and make excuses for other fucked boys, but to like give insight into the back end of a fuck boy's brain.


If I was going to give any insight or advice or sympathize with anybody, it's for the person on the other side of that fuck boy who had a really good time and a really good night and felt something special. And the next day they didn't feel that reciprocated anymore. Right. And they looked inward as to why that happened, when in all reality had nothing to do with them totally. And there was no amount of a positive experience that was going to come out of that that that was going to make that fuck boy or whoever that is the time go, wow, I should change my behavior like that has to come from inside that individual totally.


And I feel like the most common idea of a fuck boy is like a one night stand and then you never hear from them again. Right. And I feel like it's so common because I've also been a victim of this have just like when something doesn't go the way that I envisioned it, going like a. We probably had different goals and what we wanted from each other, so it's like we're already on totally separate pages. But then afterwards, when I didn't get what I wanted, I was like, well, what did I do?


What could I have done better? And I feel like that's really common for the person who has less control to, like, try and fix it in word when it's really not even about that person at all.


In college specifically, I think it's when it's in high school, everyone's awkward enough to try to figure it out. Like, I don't think that they're that maybe it's different now, but like I was not anywhere near in control enough of my emotions and brain and hormones to, like, be manipulative or be strategic about like, oh, and then I'm going to do this. Right. She was just happening. And I would just go with it. Like, I think the day that I woke up and like some girl, like, saw any interest in me, I was like, me, me, me with the Dumbo ears.


Me, right. Yeah. Hold on. Let her take her back and say, you know, like, it's not like that that the butterfly feeling's just like she likes me. Right.


So did you get addicted to that then once people started realizing like, oh he's six four.


Oh he got a fake tooth like he's you now you've always been keeping things, but he's not in high school.


I think that it was more of a high school. You're too worried about not. Getting embarrassed or looking like a loser to like, I think I was more focused on not looking like I was vulnerable as opposed to going out and seeking things right. You were on the defense, right?


In high school. My defense was an offense. You got I mean, like if something didn't go right, like I didn't care about that anyway, forget that. Whatever, because the last thing any guy wants to be is look vulnerable. Right. And I feel like high school.


You are the most insecure version of yourself that you will probably ever be. Aside from that, like small select group of people that peak in high school and everything just goes downhill from there. Right. But I would say that like high school for the majority of people is like your most insecure period of your entire life. I mean, the person that you are at, 14 years old, entering puberty, oh, my God, the peers are growing out of places, you know, gross.


But like the person you are at 14 and the person you are at 18. Yeah, those are two different people. And it's OK that you change between 14 and 18. In fact, if you haven't changed between 14 and 18, there's probably something wrong with you. But I'm concerned just like shoots through everyone who's like, why am I still five to like your brain? You know, it's so true. I mean, the maturity levels between the beginning and ending of high school and I would say the same thing about college as well.


Like are not even college, but like that age range, like you change so much like so so, so, so, so much.


Wow. I don't even know where to start. I have so many questions. I feel like I've not really encountered a fuck. Boy, I've been really lucky because it's been because I've been too busy being a serial dater to encounter a fuck boy. Really.


I subscribed to not Asulin in high school. In college, I subscribed to the rule of three more than just just, you know, along with the best of them.


OK, so I know what the rule of thirds is for photography. Very similar. Walk me through the rule of three, the rule of three.


And this is an unspoken rule. No one's ever had this conversation with anybody else. It's just it's. So you don't talk about this with your with your boys now, huh?


Oh, interesting. No, but the rule of three is basically when you are a fourth boy, you constantly in your head have a pursuit. And that is the thing that currently is making you feel like you are wanted or that you are in control or whatever. You got one that is on the way out, that's replacing the one that previously felt. And then you have a new pursuit that you're just starting to kind of like talk to, oh my God.


And it's just this like this assembly line of like one in, one out, one in one. Oh. Oh, my God, Jeremy.


I mean, the worst form of myself ever. The crazy thing is sometimes that just feels like a lot of work to organize.


It is life consuming like that. Also stressful, the worst part about it is you get cocky sometimes and you add a fourth one on. That's where you get fucked.


I mean, I feel as if we were cocky. Adding on three, I think the cockiness level is exceeding cocky at four. It's pure ignorance. You cannot keep up with that much. You're calling Sarah Jessica, Jessica, Kelsey. Kelsey's mad. And not to mention the chances are if you're in a confined, I don't know, city, one of them is going to know the other person's friend group. And you're going to look like a dickhead because you are a dickhead, right?


I mean, deserve. Yeah, I love making Jeremy uncomfortable. I feel like it's very infrequent that you are uncomfortable. I'm not uncomfortable.


I just know you look uncomfortable. You look uncomfortable. Anyways, OK, let me see what other kind of questions I have for the people because I just feel like this is such a great opportunity to learn about the fuck boy, the species, you know, where do they inhabit and how they work, what they eat, their sleep schedule.


There's just so much to learn. What an interesting species you want to learn.


OK, so how often this rule of three I hate it, but I want to know more. How do you know if you're in someone's three? The biggest indicator that I think it goes along with being a fuck boy is. Making plans in time, and the reason I say that is if you are talking to guy or girl or whatever and you constantly feel like you maybe had plans or you were planning on hanging out or whatever, and something that they didn't talk about comes into, like they go out right.


With all their friends and everyone's there. And you just you feel like you were just talking about going out tonight.


And how did you kind of go out with them? Oh, I see you didn't get the invite the next day.


And guys are great at this. I was just hanging out with my boys. We just kind of went out or whatever.


It's not really a big deal. We weren't even thinking about it.


Here's the thing, too, is that like girls and maybe this is just me and my friends, but I could be an FBI, an FBI agent because of, like, how much I can find out about someone. A suspect. Yes, sir. Yes. A lot of this was before social media.


Oh, right. In college. Before the time I wouldn't get away any of the shit that I got away with now like it. Would there be no there's no way you're going to go out. There's going to be people taking Instagram stories and this and that. And even if you were with your boys or whatever, like, why didn't you said you were going hang out with her? Why wouldn't you write? And as I said, I think in the last podcast, if a guy wants to hang out with you, he will hang out with you totally.


So if he says, yo, we should hang out Friday night, we should do that whatever, he's not going to derail that plan unless you are not a priority. And if your not a priority, prioritize yourself. Get the fuck off without him.


True, true, true. But boys are like saying stop leaking our secrets. Oh, so there's a main person. There's one on the way in the new one. The main person and one. Oh sorry mom.


Oh my God. And one on the way out.


So the main person. So OK, so I'm just having, I have so many questions but I'm also processing all of this as we talk about this. So the main purpose of this person is to make. Make you feel wanted and secure control. It's different for everybody, right? For me, I think it was a a warm and fuzzy feeling of feeling wanted when I didn't think that I deserved it. Probably. That's so sad. Yeah, but like, that was like my own insecurities as a kid.


The problem is and here's the problem. If I sat myself down at age whatever, 19 or 20, I was like, listen, kid, I am you. I experienced everything that you have already. I know everything about you. And then so you are doing this because you lack control, you are insecure and fight or flight hits. You use your mean words and you don't deal with problems. I would have told me to go and fuck myself and get out of the room like there's nothing that any would be able to tell that kid.


Yeah. At the time to get him to go. Oh gosh, I am insecure about that. It's OK if I'm not all the things I want to be right now and I don't have to just take it out in these really weird, immature ways. You know, I needed to live the experiences that I lived and wake up. One day I go, I don't want to be that person anymore. Right.


You want to be a fuck boy anymore, right? There's there's a time and place for me to fuck boy. And your time has run out. Let me.


I actually had to back. No one wakes up. I want to be a fuck boy anymore. They wake up and they go. It's OK. I don't need that type of affirmation right now and comfortable with where I'm at. Right, right. And that's the big I think issue is that it's not a it's never about the the girls. It really is.


Oh, my God. And I want to reiterate, that's so hard because I went to that feeling so many times, so often I feel like I have so many friends too. They just never felt good enough. They felt like they weren't pretty enough. They weren't skinny enough, like whatever. All the society's norms are like a perfect person to feel wanted. And it's never about that.


And you know what? It's so sad because so many like main issues and like traumas and being a mean person are are motivated by insecurities.


It gets crazy like I mean, we've talked about before, but like cheating, motivated by insecurity most of the time and being mean and bringing someone else down. Motivated by insecurities. And so I feel like being a fuck boy for a lot of people.


Again, fuck girl, whatever interchangeable is the just like I think it's a combination of insecurity and having, like, the constant affirmation and validation from like your people, but also a really impressive ability to schedule and organize things like genuinely. I am so impressed.


As I said, guys will find any time for anything they actually care about. Have you ever had one of your three or even someone who had been in the three at some point cross paths?


Yes, Lauren, that has happened really? Yeah, what do you mean you're going to leave us hanging without the story? Well, just like I mean, in college, everyone's in a fraternity sorority in the south. It's just half the campuses just like in that. And even they're not everyone's connected. Right. And so you would always find out because you would get bombarded by never. That person. The friend. Oh, yeah. The friend out.


And you would have met them once or know one thing about them and they would come at you. I heard what you did to Sarah. What? I was a friend. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I was not a friend. I would kill a bitch for any of my friends. You're right. What's sad about it is the girl's been a good friend and like, fuck you don't talk to Sarah any more. Sarah deserves better. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.


That girl leaves and all the guys go crazy bitch. Oh, my God. You're going to be so mean to someone who's just sticking up for their friend. Right? Right, right. I was thinking, you know what?


The real problem here is still, you know, I am at fault if I can't make that any clearer. I thought you were talking about a very different story when we ran.


So this one time, this is a really fun story. At some point we had OK, so we have a friend who is obsessed with the idea that her boyfriend has like this made up Asian fetish and just like loves Asians, which is absolutely a thing that exists. I mean, like people have types, they are attracted to a certain skin tone, ethnicity, culture, whatever it may be like. There's absolutely no shame in that some of its physical sentiments, mental, some of those sorts of things like who knows where it stems from?


It's like totally you can't because you're Kench. I don't think so. We have a friend that's obsessed with like I can't believe you're just throwing them out there right now. I mean, I'm not naming names, but I know you're talking about I mean, you know, I'm talking about we've had this conversation with him so many times. Go do your thing. My friend is obsessed with the idea and likes to bug and joke with her boyfriend that he loves Asians.


And at some point this came into our conversation and I was like, oh, have you ever slept with an Asian? Am I your first Asian? Like being so naive and stupid, like not knowing the extent of Jeremy is like fuck boy stage.


I'd like to point out that I was pretty honest about my fuck boy stage. You know, for sure. For sure. We've been so honest about, like, painfully obvious. You've been like, no, I'll no less. That's that's OK. That's OK. Just keep that to yourself.


That just you're going to be going you have to be honest. I mean, that's not something if I found that out two years into the relationship, that's weird. That's super weird. Anyways, I feel like you're avoiding letting me finish the story like most needs us. So I asked Jeremy, just like point blank was like, oh, like, am I the first Asian that you've, like, been with? Like, am I like have you been with an Asian before?


And Jeremy and this was not a lie. I think this was you just having a memory lapse. And so sorry to every Asian that Jeremy has ever been with before me that he forgot about you.


And honestly, as his current girlfriend, I'm not mad he forgot about you claiming my territory. And so he said, no, I was like, no, no. You're like the first one that I've ever been with.


And I was like, like, nice. I think you're the first one. Yeah, I can't recall. But like, you were genuinely like. Yeah, I genuinely answered that question.


Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, we're out at a bar one night after dinner and definitely both of us like a few drinks in. And there was this story that he had told me at some point of this girl that he had slept with. And I won't go into too many details because people will be able to piece things together at some point. They'll be like three people who could piece it together. And so we're out at this bar and we run into this girl.


She gets introduced as this specific person I know that Jeremy has slept with and she's Asian and me just being drunk, just like it, just fully drunk. I turned to Jeremy and I'm not proud of this moment. Like, this is me being like a little bit of a crazy bitch.


And I was like, oh, so you and me, I was like it was like the meme with, like, all the math equations flying over my face as I'm piecing together people who I'm being introduced to. And I'm like, Oh, this is a friend of so-and-so and I live with this person. And it and that was like, oh, very interesting.


I am I want I want to applaud your memory because it wasn't like an obvious you know, I was I was yeah. I was putting a puzzle together.


Right. And I was to the point where I had I obviously I knew when I saw, but like, I wouldn't even have thought that, like, you would have been able to understand that.


And drunk Lauren, drunk Lauren is pretty territorial. I'm not going to lie.


Lauren, look, we talked a little bit. I drunk Lauren. They're really getting a clearer picture of what one looks.


Yeah, a little too real. A real horny Sherlock Holmes.


No, I wasn't horny in that moment. I was ready to kill like I was. Yeah, I got claws were out and it wasn't like a fight or anything. It was it was like it was 90 percent joking, ten percent serious. But it was with gusto for sure.


You were mad, but you looked at me with this look of like, oh. The newsroom of the poor girl is like, honestly so nice, and we ended up hanging out with her a little bit that night and it was totally fine. And like obviously, like I'm not like that much of a psycho bitch where I'm, like, not going to befriend this girl. Also, we're here. Keep your enemies close.


So moral of that story is that Jeremy is a fuck boy.


It's he he has slept with an Asian before me. But he forgot about you. Sorry, not sorry. It seems oddly mean.


And I'm going to badger the person listening in. They're like, yeah, no shit. And being a fuck boy stems from the fuck boy or fuck girl's insecurities. And it's not about you. You you deserve better move the fuck on.


OK, you know what, I really think that that could have been much worse for you, that, yeah, that was not bad at all. Like you were like you were in the hot seat, but not at all.


No, it wasn't bad. But I mean, at the same time, it's not exactly something that I would volunteer to share with hundreds of thousands of people, but.


Well, here we are. Oh, you know what? Actually, I do have more questions. Are there any like like what was, like, your biggest regret being a fuck boy?


Well, uh, I don't really I. I don't really like to have regrets for things that taught me lessons, I'm just like envisioning the no regrets guy from that one movie in the tattoo with the a no regrets.


Regrets. Yeah, no, I just I think I needed that period because it's not like I need to, like, scratch that itch anymore. Right.


Also to I feel like even though you may have left a path of destruction, but but I, I genuinely believe that everyone comes into a person's life for a reason, whether that's, you know, that something that ends up being positive or negative. But I guarantee that every single person that you've interacted with, you know, whether it was a good experience or a bad experience or maybe was a really fun experience and then was an angry, angry, whatever it may be.


But I genuinely think that there is always a lesson in something you can learn from every single person that you interact with. And so, I mean, you had your journey and you may have just been part of someone else's journey, you know? Yeah, a couple. Yeah, a couple. A couple. A couple journeys you are a part of.


Yeah. So I mean it sounds like, mean and like, like short sighted to say I don't like have regrets and that side. Right. But like I needed to learn. Right. Were doing like I'm not someone who like sees a picture of something of like oh that would be aspirational. I'm going to go do that. Like you got to hit me over the head a few times and like that's just like my human condition and how dumb I can be.


I mean, I think I think Hollywood also does a pretty rough job of depicting like even nice guys finish last is something that gets reiterated in every single movie and show. OK, like Lizzie McGuire, Ethan, he's like the dumb jock who like doesn't care, doesn't prioritize Hilary Duff and then Gordo, the nice, sweet guy the entire time. Nice guys finish last. I can't remember, like, spoiler alert, but I think Gordo and Lizzie end up having a thing at some point.


So maybe he didn't finish last. But at the end of the day, it's like Hollywood depicts that, like the player and like the nice guys finish last. It's like the stereotypes. And so it gives guys this idea. And again, not gender specific, but I feel like in Hollywood it is usually the guy depicted as like the player. And then the girl wants to win the player over and then fall in love and hero complex. Right.


The hero complex role.


Totally. So are you the hero? No fucking loser, but I ended up winning, but you ended up winning. That's adorable. No, I. I feel like I need to button this and put a little like a present a bow and wrap this up. Yeah. The it was interesting when I got out to L.A. for a few years. Right. And found myself going back into fuck boy tendencies. Right. And I went to a therapist who specialized in basically like boys you have to fuck boy therapist.




Oh, it was like this therapist who like was very much he worked with a lot of like type a business folks, people, entertainment people are out in L.A. It's not like the the the the small town, like 45 year old woman who deals with like my anxiety, which there's a great profession there.


And that person needs to be. Absolutely. But I mean, in L.A., it's like it's a different breed of L.A. people is just different issues. Right. And like I had been to therapy before and different and different environments. And I feel like they were all very get it all out there and everything's OK that you're feeling that. But none of them wanted to address the. It's not saying they don't want to address the root of it. It was almost like.


And how are we going to what are we gonna do to fix that? We're going to do to change that. And this guy was very much like, tell me everything. And I was very honest with him about, like, you know, beginning middle. And he goes, OK, really, the recent occurrences and like what I was doing and what I was feeling, he goes great. Like, what was the your upbringing like? And I feel like I immediately heard that and was like, what does that have anything to do with what's going on?


Because I feel like you don't think that anything is tied together when it always is.


It's everything is tied together. Right.


Because I went into this long story about how my I was adopted, but single mother who is wonderful and she was a hard worker and treated me well, whatever it is like. OK, great. So what so you had no man in your life growing up at all? I was like, well, there was a stepdad but he sucked and he was out of there in a couple of years. OK, so got it. So you're telling me your entire life you had a great mom who was constantly kind of, you know, trying to work to keep you ahead.


The only guy that ever came in was this guy that wasted her time, made you feel bad, made you feel insecure, and you didn't want to be anything like that. But you had nothing better to look to.




And I was like, uh, well, I guess now that you say, yeah, but that has nothing to do with this, you know, and it's just like he like walks you through how they connect the pieces. Right. And and what was funny, I got to the end of it, you know, and he kind of like illuminated a few things maybe that I just put this big ol shadow over it. Like, Listen, I'm not here to tell you that you need to stop doing what it is you're doing.


What I am here to tell you that there's a reason that you're doing it and you need to be cognizant of it. So the next two or three times that you find yourself waking up the next morning after you've done the same thing that you're trying to move on from, know where it's coming from. Right. And that was the most helpful thing, as opposed to telling someone that what you're doing is wrong. You need to stop it. It's like, listen, if you don't want to do that anymore, you need to be aware of why you're doing it in the first place.


You're going to come to that like that resolution, right, where you're going to end up figuring it out on your own, like once he helps you identify, like, the root of the situation.


Right. So it's not like that. That's taboo or that's wrong. That's why.


So he was he was all in on fuck boy. Jeremy, I as much as I said I'm not I'm trying to do this. He goes, you know, honestly, I think you should just be aware of what you're doing. Right. If you want to keep doing it, if it makes you happy and you're doing it safely, like do whatever it is like. Go ahead, kid, but be aware of, like, why you're constantly trying to scratch that bitch that is completely unscratched until you realize why you're itchy in the first place.


Oh, my God.


No, no, no. Keep that in. I mean, I think I think that's super helpful.


First of all, I don't think that that message could have been told to me, even by him when I was a kid. Right. Because I would have had the parents and the teachers and everybody else is trying to tell me what is right and what's wrong. You got to get the message at the right time. I mean, think about it. You were a serial dater from day one to all. But now I think we're great for each other.


I think we're perfect. Don't get me wrong. Well, mostly perfect. I think we're great for each other. We're perfect. Had we met ten years ago. Oh, my God. Yeah. No, no, no, no way. No, it's timing. Where you're everything is everything. Timing is everything. Yeah. I'm, um. I'm a self-proclaimed serial dater for sure. I've been basically in a relationship since I was 17. I am so aware of honest talk about.


Yeah. How unhealthy this is. And, you know, I work through bits and pieces of it and through therapy and there's a lot of conclusions that I've come to just on my own and that I've paid someone to help me come to together with a therapist. But essentially I feel like I had this idea of what success looked like, like all around success. So just I had like, this success pie. One piece of the pie was being in a relationship and I didn't feel whole this is so goddamn unhealthy.


And I want everyone to know that this is not how you go about life, even if it, like, landed me in a good place. Now, at twenty seven, this is so unhealthy. But like, my pie was incomplete and I wasn't successful unless I had that piece, I had love like you have your friend love you have family love, you know, but I that like emotional love of like relationships I always felt like was an integral piece of my happiness and my success.


And I, I honestly don't think that it stemmed from like not being happy with myself. I think it was because, like, I would like to think that, like, I'm not that insecure, obviously, like everyone has insecurities. But I wasn't I wasn't looking for affirmation that I was pretty or good enough. I just had this idea of success and it was a checklist and it was like, I need to have good grades. I need to be on a career path that I enjoy.


I need to be in a healthy, stable relationship. And that was just one of those things that gave me comfort. And I feel like I felt uneasy when I was out of a relationship. I keep going.


Oh, OK. Isn't it so funny, though, that your. The your path to success and what you thought was giving you comfort, obviously, as it has unhealthy parts to it, but you kept yourself to that checklist and weren't even thinking about it, just inherently moving towards that as a north star. Very different from mine, but no one is going to tell you anything differently. And you were going to do that no matter what. Totally.


And I tried to be single in between relationships. It just I just never really happened. For me, there was like one solid summer, one season where I was like fully single, talking to a few different people, like going out in Toronto.


Wait, wait, wait, wait. Did you ever practice the rule of threes? No. Are you kidding? No, actually, no. No. How many guys at one time? Yeah. Max, do you think that you've been texting that could potentially think that there was a date to be had? Just to two, never three. No, that seems like a lot. Also, I feel like this was like before tender and stuff was like really popping.


And I was in college still. But like, I feel like I was in a smallish program and I don't know, I don't really, like, meet people at bars. I don't know. I just feel like I wasn't great, just like strike up a conversation with random people. So I had like a small network of like friends of friends, which is where I found most of the people that I talk to you in that period. But I didn't have, like, this crazy network of people that I could be potentially connected to to, like, build my group of three because I feel like my college experience was very different than yours.


Like we didn't have fraternities and sororities to, like, party with every single weekend. And I just like didn't have access to the same amount of population that you did.


But I am very organized. I probably could handle three.


I think that you would have been a fantastic fuck girl. I, I to think that I could have been a fantastic fuck. I really do think that you do have it in you. I got to be honest. I think I ruined it for you.


I mean, literally, I got it into my last relationship and I was like, it's go time baby. Like Rule of three before. I obviously didn't know what the rule three was, but I was like, it is time I am ready to take on L.A. single. Let's do this. I went out with maybe three people before going out on a date with you. And also this is like a random point. But I, I talked to someone who was so set on being single for an exact amount of days.


Three hundred and sixty five days to be exact. You wanted to be single for three and sixty five days.


No, I think that's stupid. Oh God. I think that's so stupid. I mean maybe it would have done me good to be like OK, no relationships for an entire year. But I just think that that's so dumb to hold yourself and like trap yourself in this little bubble or like confine yourself to not being in a relationship. Like, what if you meet your soulmate on day one hundred and twenty three, you know what I mean? And it's like and you let that pass you by.


So I don't know.


I do remember asking like when things started getting more serious, like. Yeah. Specifically like do you need more time. Yeah I remember it like very much, which is crazy that I asked that because that, that is Jeremy from year a couple of years ago would have been out in the last thing. You would have either felt like you needed more time, didn't ask and then just fled to go or tried to make sure that he didn't lose this opportunity kind of thing and like tried to force, like, this relationship to make it happen.


So kudos to Jeremy for growing and asking that. And I remember you were very much set on not, but like I would even like explain that, yes, I'm a serial dater and I didn't think I'm going to be interested, but I really like what we're doing here. Yeah. And I want to keep moving forward this. And I was like, OK.


I mean, it was very much go with the flow at the beginning because I was like, OK, like genuinely. I've not been single very long. But I think to my point about like when I break up with someone I like, I drive that relationship to the ground, which is, you know, in itself is very unhealthy.


Again, at the end of your relationship is the Jeep Wrangler that should have been put on the side of the road ten years ago. Ten years ago, right.


100 percent rusted. It's rusted. It has been driven to the ground. And this is like so toxic. But I feel like when a relationship ends, I feel like it's a failure and that is so, so toxic. And I should never think like that. I don't know why we're giving dating advice, honestly. I mean, you know what? No, we landed in a good place. Just the journey to get there learned a lot of things.


But like, I think they're especially for you, right? You like your parents are. I mean, if you want to write a textbook on supportive loving, I have a very Werlin nuclear family. Absolutely. And but they're very open to they're open to new things, but they're comfortable in their traditions and want to support you in any capacity. If I had had that as my my rule book in my guide book of like what I wanted to aspire toward.


Right. Not being able to achieve that with relationships along the way would feel like a failure.


Like I go, my God, you're so right. I mean, to think about it break up like even the term nobody thinks so.


Right. Like I see like what I want my future to look like. And I project that into my checklist of like what I think success. Look, I mean, imagine on a Thursday things were going really well with your parents and they just came. And you know what? It's it's not going to work anymore. That that would feel like a failure to you, right? Yeah. And so you saw that in yourself and you thought, why can't I make it happen?


Why am I feeling it? This oh, my God, this is this is therapy. This is more. What do your therapist feels like. No, baby, we in sponsors now we out here. Let's not get ahead of us. We out here getting ourself out of podcast debt. Here we come. But no, I always thought that my break ups were a sign of failure. And so I would give that relationship one hundred and twenty five percent so that I knew I had given my my all and then some.


So when I get out of a relationship. I am like, well, damn tried that didn't work on the next one, I think that's a big part of my serial dating as well, because I'm like, OK, I tried literally everything. You know what? Actually, interesting, interestingly enough, my therapist that I went to for couples therapy told us to break up. Yeah, yeah.


That's that's how you know, that's how you know, that's how you know, it's just not meant to be. But yeah, she made some like massive you know what, you know, she was two. Is that like things that, like I said, did not hold the same value as when it came out of the therapist mouth. And so I would sit there and be like, yeah, you know, I told you so much again, unhealthy probably that probably the relationship was was was not going in the right direction.


But I mean, she literally was like, yeah, I just don't see these two paths continuing together. You want different things. Your maturity levels are on totally separate there in different chapters of different books, different languages in different languages.


Exactly. And she basically encouraged us to break up.


Do you remember the question that I asked you before we started dating?


Yes, I remember the question that you asked me before we started dating. What I think it's a very honest question. You you know.


I know. OK, fine, fine, fine, fine. Put me on blast. Do it.


Ask me the question again. I before like when I knew things were heading towards there, I just I was like, we need to sit down. We never talk. I need to confirm something. Have you since you broke up with your ex, hooked up with them again, and have you also fucked some random person before meeting me? Oh, you want me to personally confirm those statements, you did it because I thought it was important. No, I do.


I do think it is important. I don't think I don't think I actually haven't had break up sex or whatever with all of my relationships. But in this specific in that specific instance, when you ask me those questions, I confirmed both statements to be true. And you were like, great, you're ready for a relationship. You're good to go. And then I asked her out.


That's not how that happened.


But I think the Bourdon I mean, I think I think some people I think it's important for some people not, you know, potentially the fit for everyone or the we broke up seven months ago and we're still hooking up and we're still hooking up.


Yeah. Yeah. I don't do that. I don't have time for that. I think that's that's inefficient and I think that's unhealthy. And that's why I stay in a relationship for those those seven months instead of like breaking up and hooking up for those seven months, I just stay in the relationship at the end of it and like, OK, well, now we're going to see each other again.


I will say something you missed out on not being a band or choir nerd. Geek is the offshoot band camp away. Yeah.


I mean, American American Pie, I feel like painted this in this very graphic picture, this visual of like what Bandcamp was like.




You didn't have any random hookups at Bandcamp and for that you missed out. I mean, I didn't do sleepover camps. Was it just a day camp? I did so many camps. I did golf and sports camp. I did dance. Camp was not very good at arts and crafts. Camp nailed that drama and theater camp. Terrible at that. I did all the day camps as an only child to working parents. I was a I was a day camp professional.


I went because my mom was single mom that worked during the summers. I feel like I went to a lot of camps that were like a week or two where I stay so that she wouldn't, like, not have to like pick that up. So I had plenty of time to do plenty of dumb things that a lot of church camps, a lot of bang camps, a lot of choir camps, a lot of all of it.


Tell me about your hookups at church camp. That's a fun topic. I like hookups to church camp. I went off and like, made out with somebody. Oh, I do remember my by the guy actually who baptized me, a good friend of mine. He, like, convinced me to go to this church camp. I did not want to go at all and I didn't really get along with many people there. But like I went because whatever he talked me into it and I distinctly remember knowing it would piss him off if I made out with the pastor's daughter.


Oh, my God, Jeremy, she was cute. We can't talking anyway, whatever. And I remember, like, while I was doing, I was like, oh, he's kind of so you be so fucking pissed at me.


Sorry buddy. And he was can't confirm. Was pissed at you. Yeah. He was mad. Yeah.


Where is the pastor's daughter now. I have no idea. Huh. That'll be a fun face. Do you want me to keep in touch.


I mean. No, not at all. But will I do a little FBI diving later. Probably confirm. Well that's fun. Yeah. I don't know. I feel like I was so awkward. I was such a tomboy growing up, like I was so into sports and like had crushes on boys. But I was more interested in like running really fast and playing soccer and but also like still being artsy. But like, I don't know, I wasn't like, oh, like Makinen, all the boys, you know, you waited for them to come to you, baby.


Yeah, yeah. I'm just saying, you missed out on some prime time, three months of drum corps touring sleepovers every night, some choir things, some all these random, like nerdy things that you see in the movies. But like in real life.


Yeah, you missed out. I did miss out. I did miss though. Yeah, that's OK. That's OK. That's right.


Did you ever have an agreed upon fuck buddy like where things were. It was like you found a dream girl who wanted nothing more than to just be a fuck girl where you were the fuck boy. Honest answer, yeah, yes, really, that's great. Like our friends with benefits that stayed platonically, just friends with benefits, I there's throughout every part of my fuck boy career.


Yeah, there was always my career. Retired. Retired. Retired. Yeah, always. There was always one. I feel like I could have gone down with that. I think that that would have been your go to. I feel like that would be my go to as well. I just don't know if you have it in you to not catch feelings if. They're sweet to you. I know that's the problem, is that like, oh yeah, it's things like got emotional in any way.


I take it back, I oh my God, I take that back and don't cut this part.


If they were sweet to you. Yeah. You would've been fine. If they had been if they always feel like if it felt like they wanted to leave a little bit earlier or if sometimes they didn't have time for you, that's when you would have been in trouble.


See, I don't know if it had been if it had been before you like at age 26 either. I feel like I would have been turned off by that. Like, honestly, I don't have time for this shit.


I'm not 16, like, text you never. I could do that. Yeah. I just I don't have time for that bullshit. Yeah. Like I think it was on my terms of being a fuck girl. I think, you know, I would feel in control and I would love that for sure. And if someone tried to turn the tables on me and like have the upper hand, quote unquote, I'd be like, yeah, not for me onto the next one.


I just think that that if you're going to be if you're in your period of a fuck, boy or girl, period. Right. Yeah. I think that you need to realize that you're in that period for sure and that there's a way to be self-serving without sabotaging somebody else for sure, without like damaging someone else in the wake of like your actions.


Right. And I think it's very hard to communicate that. Yeah. Like, you got to try. I mean, it's tough, I think, like talking about expectations and like intentions near the beginning. Ish is like always really tricky because you're like, is it too early or is it too late like that?


Because I mean, everyone at some point has emotions, whether you're, you know, just there for sex or for more. It's like everyone has emotions and it's tough to, like, navigate that. But I think as long as everyone's putting in effort on both sides to be straightforward, I mean, the problem is you've got to be honest with yourself before you could be honest.


The other person and I think a lot of people aren't being honest with ourselves.


That's true. That is true.


The amount of times I've been like, yeah, this is OK, this is OK, OK, it's it's not OK. It's not OK at all.


I mean, like it relationships are not a zero sum game. Like if you feel like the other person is not giving you what you want, like it's not everything doesn't have to equal a hundred people can meet halfway on these things or like you can just, you know, wash your hands of it, move on because it's time to move on. Yeah, absolutely.


I mean, I think compromise is something that we've talked about before and is like so important for a woman to always be, right.


Yes. Good answer. Good answer. That it's a compromise that we like.


I feel like I've illuminated a topic that I didn't think I was ever going to talk about.


And how do you feel? Better than I thought I would. Yeah, yeah, I mean, you're you're doing a service to like I'm just doing a disservice to myself. I'm not so sure I am very, very, very proud of the growth rate that I've experienced from that asset to today.


So like, yeah, also I think that it's it's encouraging to see that, like, someone can be a total asset and then turn into a mature growth person person who has grown. I wish I could say well said it wasn't. Well said it all.


But you knew what I meant, you know what I mean? I just feel like it's a good example because I think of like so many guys I went to high school with, they were such dicks. And now, like on Facebook, I see that they're like married with a child.


And I'm like, oh, I'm so happy for you that you grew out of being an ass hat. That's so nice for you. Yeah.


Yeah. So, I mean, it's it's like it's over time, it's over maturity. It's like through your journey. I just, I just, you know, wish the best to all the assets out there and I wish the best to all the people that are exposed to the assets that that you're right.


Take a step back and go it's not me. Yeah, exactly.


Exactly. But I think that's the biggest takeaway from this thing. And like hearing from you as an ex fuck boy, is that like it is not you. And if you need to change that to yourself in the mirror every day, 10 times, please do it, because that is the moral of everything of fuck boy related topics.


And let me talk one more thing on to that. It is not your job to try and teach them that they are doing something wrong, right.


It's more to change them because I know it's like as a fixer myself, like I absolutely I think if I encountered a fuck boy, I don't like, how can I change? Right. And what can I do better to make this guy want to date me when it's like we just don't even have the same goals at all?


What's sad is that in your mind, you think that. Oh, I what do I need to do to help them? Right. But it's really it. That's for you. It's for you. It is. It is for sure. All right. Flyboy's. Be honest yourself, why are you doing it? Get the fuck over it, you'll be a happier person. Or maybe you need to be a fuck boy for a little bit, but like know your intentions and understand the root of your fuck boyishness, know where it comes from?


No, where it comes from. Right. That's the best advice we can give.


I mean, why you're a fuck boy. I mean, it's important. I mean, everyone's got to go on their own journey. You know, it's going to be like, fuck these guys. This is terrible advice.


No, but I think if you're not looking for the same thing that a fuck boy is looking for, ditch it, move on. Don't expend the effort and the time and the energy on that person because they are on their journey. If you're looking for something totally opposite, it's not going to happen. And they need to get there themselves. 100 percent focus on you.


Absolutely. I mean, insightful. The rule three, I learned a lot this podcast, honestly, OK, I think it's time for the hot seat for you next time. Unfortunately, you're just so damn precious and nice and cute and don't have this, like, dark, twisted past. We'll find something. I love that for me. We'll find something, real ones. I don't know what you can drop in the comments to let us know that you are real one, but I want you to do that.


All right. So anyways, stop, drop, roll. Right. Download, follow the podcast. Thank you guys so much for listening. I'm so excited that you're here.


Still, if you are still here, you are you still here? Are you still here? Not anymore.


Not anymore. All right, guys, that is all we have for you today on what, nine DB do you. Do you, do you.


OK, by every Friday, Slate's popular Daily News podcast, What Next brings you What Next? TBD, a clear eyed look at technology, power and the future. From fake news to fake meet algorithms to augmented reality hosts. Lizzie O'Leary is your guide to the rapid technological changes reshaping our world. Those changes aren't always visible, and they aren't always what they appear to be. That's where TBD comes in. Lizzie and her guests help listeners parse out what matters, what doesn't and what's next.


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