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It was the summer of 1984, Tonia Parnevik was in the process of building his house painting business on the west side of Cleveland on August twenty third. A woman named Marion Flynn was beaten and strangled to death. Authorities collected semen from her body. Police soon identified plenty of likely suspects, including a violent ex-boyfriend, the next tenant who had been accused of rape, and a few other men who had keys to her house, as well as Tony upon a bitch who had done some painting for her earlier that summer.

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But Tony's whereabouts were entirely accounted for on the night of her murder. Tony was perhaps too cooperative with police, refusing a lawyer, answering all their questions and even voluntarily giving up hair, blood and saliva samples. He happened to have the same blood type as fluids found at the scene, but the state presented that piece of evidence without mentioning that Miss Flynn had that exact same blood type. The stated evidence the detective lied on the stand. And in 1984, without DNA testing available to prove his innocence, Tony would have to wait for that scientific advancement to free him from his death sentence after thirty two years.

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But remarkably, his time on death row didn't end there. This is wrongful conviction with Jason Flom. You know, in order to support our show, we need the help of some great advertisers and we want to make sure those advertisers are ones you'll actually want to hear about. But we need to learn a little more about you in order to make that possible. So go to pod survey dotcom wrongful conviction and take a quick, anonymous survey that will help us get to know you better.

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That way, we can bring on advertisers that you won't want to skip. Once you've completed the quick survey, you can enter for a chance to win a one hundred dollar Amazon gift card. Terms and conditions apply. Again, that's pod survey dotcom, wrongful conviction pod survey, dotcom, wrongful conviction. Thanks for your help. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flom, and soon you'll be hearing the subject of this episode, a man named Anthony Parnevik calling in from death row in Ohio, where he has been for the better part of four decades for a crime he didn't commit.

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With us on this show today is Dale Basch, federal public defender who has been the lead lawyer and staunch advocate for Mr. Upon Image since 1991, probably before some of you were born. That's how long he's been working on this case. So, Dale, welcome back to wrongful conviction. Thank you, Jason. It's good to be back. Hello. This is a prepaid debit card from Tony, an inmate of Chillicothe Correctional Institution, to accept this call.

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Press Zero. Thank you for using DTL.

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Hello. Hey, Tony, I'm happy to have you here with us, but obviously, I'm really sorry that it's under these circumstances.

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All right. Thanks, Jason. I appreciate that. Appreciate this opportunity to tell my story.

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Now, Tony, I want to go back to before any of this happened. You grew up in Ohio, right? Oh, yeah.

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Yeah, I grew up on the east side of Cleveland. Could go to school in about about the eighth grade. I just started working when I was 12 years old. I like construction work, so I like working outside. I was a truck driver for about five years. Then I was trying to get a painting business started because I figured, you know, the summer months I could work outside painting and then in the winter months I would be able to drive truck.

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And so this brings us to the summer of 1984. Two neighbors have both hired you to do some painting. Maryann Flynn and the guy that lived across the street from her. You painted the outside bottom half of Miss Flynn's house. Now, she intended to paint her window frames herself. And then you started working across the street painting her neighbors entire house. And that brings us up to August. Twenty third. Nineteen eighty four. You noticed that she hadn't gotten to painting the windows yet and tried to get a little more business for yourself.

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So when I see her, I walked over, I asked her if she wasn't going to be able to get to those frames that I said she wanted. I could get it done, you know, because the weather's change. And she said, well, she'd let me know. I think I told her I was going to be like sixty bucks or something. So that was the last time I had seen her or talked to her was around four thirty when that across the street, we finished up the job and then we headed to the bar.

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That's what I did the rest of the night, you know, was bar hopping in the neighborhood.

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So later that night, Mary Ann Flynn was raped and brutally murdered in her bedroom. She'd been strangled and severely beaten and semen was found and collected from both her mouth and her vagina. Yes.

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So Marianne's body was transported to the county coroner's office in Cuyahoga County. OK, and I got to stop for a second because Cuyahoga County was notorious as one of, if not the most corrupt, disorganized, dysfunctional crime labs in the entire country. At that time, the police, prosecutors and the coroner's office have all been the subject of news articles, scandals, podcast for being sloppy or outright corrupt.

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And let me give you a couple of examples. Liliana Segura with The Intercept did some great reporting that documented a pattern of misconduct in the Cuyahoga County prosecutor's office. And in two thousand and eighteen season three of the podcast serial feature, the Cleveland Police Department, the prosecutor's office and the courts in Cuyahoga County as being somewhat corrupt. And the folks at the Cuyahoga County coroner's office admitted that they ran a sloppy lab. So you have all that going on during the time that Tony's case was making its way through the court system in Cuyahoga County.

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And of course, this crime labs dubious work will become relevant later. But first, Tony, let's get back to the investigation of your alibi. You had gone bar hopping, the bars you went to that night. You were a bit of a regular at and your whereabouts were accounted for by the people who saw you all through the night. Oh, yeah.

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These are people that I frequented these bars and these people knew who I was and Forras them telling the cops that I was there at the bar. That was no problem as far as my alibi went. I mean, I was where I said I was. And then when I left one bar, I went to the next one. Within the time that it would have taken normally to get from A to B, no hour delays in between or nothing like that.

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There was no skipping to wherever I was that night. Whatever bar I went to, whatever time I got there and left, they know that was all covered.

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So how did you get pulled into this?

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Well, I'll tell you, Jason, here's what the homicide detectives told me. My name came up in the. Investigation as they were canvassing the neighborhood and I go downtown with them and they start asking me questions. They tell me, well, we're going to have to hold you. We want to check your alibi. They kept me in jail that night, next day, and they wondered if I would mind giving them a blood sample. I'm like, yeah, no, I got no problem with that.

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They take my blood. They want to take some of my hair and my saliva. So I give them all that. And they're asking me, you want a lawyer? You know, before we ask that, like, I don't need a lawyer, you know, I'm cooperating 100 percent because I didn't do it. Then they may ask, can we go to your house and look at your clothes? I'm like, yeah, OK, cool. See, I'm not too upset about why they're doing this, because I am an ex-con.

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I did four years or one month for armed robbery. I had to come in. I did my time, you know, and they told me that right off to jump being an ex-con made them look at me a little harder than average Joe. I see. OK, go. So they went to my house to get most of my clothes and they keep me in jail another night. What? The next day? By now I'm pissed off. I'm talking to detectives.

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I should have said I'm ready to go. He said, well, you know, we don't have to charge you. We can hold you so many days. You know, if it was up that day, I said, this is it, man, I'm going home. He said, well, let me come back this afternoon. He said, I'm waiting on the lab report. Anyhow, he come back about three, three thirty, got me out of the cell.

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So I leave. I go home. I'm not thinking too much of it. I'm just wondering when I'm going to get my clothes back, because when I get home, I see they got most of them gone. So they're maybe five days later, I had a ticket that I had gotten a couple of weeks earlier that I had to go to court for. I so I called down to Detective Zeller. I say, listen, I'm going to be in court tomorrow.

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I want to come pick up my clothes. He said, no problem. So when I go down, go to court, he tells me he wants me to come upstairs because he wanted the corner to take a look at me. They take me in a room, the corner comes in. They say, well, they want to look at my penis. OK, so I let her look. She looks at it. This is not this isn't it?

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And leaves the room. Wait, wait. Why? Well, I can I know what it is now. There was this guy named Ronnie Shelton. I know he's called the West Side Rapist. He was going around raping, raping women all over that area on the west side of Cleveland at that time. And he had something wrong. I guess he had some kind of scabs and stuff on his neck that they wanted to see if I had on mine.

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And, well, of course, it wasn't me, so. All right. So continue. Was there anything else relevant about this contact with Zahler?

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Whether I had called to ask about my clothes before I went down to the traffic ticket, just before he hung up, he said, well, you know, Tony, you still get indicted for this. So I said, if that happens, give me a call.

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And that conversation comes up later at trial when Detective Sollar gives well, he gave a very misleading testimony. But for now, there's this indictment threat looming. But you're not too worried because after all, you're innocent. But weeks go by and nothing happens until you were housesitting for your in-laws.

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So this is like October 2nd. I come out to shower. My wife's in the shower. It's about noon. The phone rings. Detective Fowler, I need you to come down and talk to us. Yeah, well, you know, I don't tell you everything. There are no more to add is like, no, no, Tony, I'm going to have to hold you for trial and I need you to come. I said, all right.

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All right. I said, I'll be down in a while. I said, I'll take my wife over to my mother's and let them know what's going on, you know? So I said, I don't want them to see on the news that you arrest me for this stuff, you know? And he said, yeah, OK, no problem. Just calm down later on this afternoon. So I hang up the phone. I'm thinking, you know, this murder shit like this, this is bullshit.

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So I walk outside, I figure the cops are out there. I still want to bust in through the door. I got my daughter's, you know, little bassinet there on the couch. Right. My wife's in the shower. You know, if I really am going to be on trial for some a crime like this, they've got to be standing right out there with a shotgun. So I walk outside and there's nothing, not nobody. I stand there for a few minutes, nothing.

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I go back in the house, call a lawyer up, and I ask them to check out up. He called me back and he told me, he said, You've been indicted, man. Your face in the electric chair. He asked me what I was going to do. I said, well, you know, I'm going to my mom's like I told him, and I'll be down later on this afternoon, you know? I mean, this was at noon or twelve thirty when he calls me on the phone and arrest me for this terrible crime.

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I mean, it's a terrible crime. There's no ifs, ands or buts. I mean, arrest me on the telephone. You telling me I take my time coming down so you know, my baby's only six weeks old. I kiss my daughter, I kiss my wife till my brother Vince, you know, catch you guys later, you know? And I went down to the jail probably about four thirty. I mean, I got to believe they knew that you weren't really the rapist and murderer otherwise.

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Just the way, baby. Behave this way and I'll tell you what he said. I get down there you go in this room and I said, Look, man, why are you doing this to me? He said, I'm not the one doing it. The prosecutor is the one that got the indictment against you. I said, but what I mean then and he says, and this is for sure and never forget this. He said, well, Tony said, you know, this is a high profile case and there's a lot of pressure on us to get somebody you know, all your alibi witnesses are drunks and you look worse than anybody else.

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I'm like, wow, man, that ain't right. You know, this is you know, we should make sure you demand a speedy trial and you've got to do it within 90 days. I said, yeah, yeah. And he said, what are you going to do about your business license to try to get it going? He says, you know, he said they're going to drag your name through the mud. And you said you're not going to be able to get work in this town in Cleveland.

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I said, well, maybe I'd go out to the suburbs. You know, that's where my in-laws live. I mean, this is a guy who's locking me up on a charge of burglary, rape and murder. The same one who arrested me on the telephone. This episode is brought to you by Stand Together, Stand Together is a philanthropic community dedicated to helping people improve their lives. For more than 20 years stand together and its partners have been on the front lines of criminal justice reform by empowering people to take action, supporting nonprofits and working with businesses.

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Stand together, tackles the root causes of problems in our communities and empowers those closest to the problems to drive solutions. Solutions like reducing unjust prison sentences to the first step act, empowering community based programs that help people re-enter society, and now working to bridge divides in our communities. To learn how you may get involved, visit. Stand together again. Conviction. This episode is underwritten by the AIG pro bono program. AIG is a leading global insurance company, and for over a decade, the AIG pro bono program has provided thousands of hours of free legal services and other support to non-profit organizations and individuals most in need.

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More recently, the program added criminal and social justice reform as a key pillar of its mission. The only evidence against him was purely circumstantial. Definitely wrong place, wrong time, he was painting the house. There was no denying that he knew the victim, but that doesn't make him guilty. A lot of people were in contact with her that same day. That's not a basis on which to convict somebody and sentenced to death, especially when none of the rest of the evidence matched up and then the trial itself.

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Now, this is before you got involved. It's so long ago. When did the trial take place? December of 1984. And the investigation that the two lawyers representing Tony did to prepare for trial wasn't as robust as it should have been. They went out and spoke to a few of Tony's witnesses, but they did not hire experts to look at the forensics. They did not interview the detectives. They had a very cursory interview with the people at the coroner's office.

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So without a thorough investigation, the prosecution was able to pull a number of dirty tricks. And this tangled web started really back when the autopsy was conducted, right?

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Yes, there was a piece of hair that was found between her bound hands behind her back. And that hair could only be placed there by the person who assaulted Mary and Flynn. The hair was tested. It wasn't Tony's hair. It wasn't Maryann's hair. So the state had to come up with an explanation for how the hair got there. The evidence that the state presented at trial was that the hair was lying on her open pan, which supported the theory that the hair fell from someone's head in a morgue attendant, one of the personnel at the crime scene.

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So what the state argued to the jury was disregard the hair. What we found out later is that the hair, as I noted, was found between her bound hands behind her back. And this is just the beginning. I mean, they even planted that seed in opening statements. But there's so much more here to unpack. So go ahead, Dale.

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At trial, the state put on evidence that it swabbed the victim's vagina and that swab contained fluid deposited by someone who had blood type A and was a sex leader and someone who is a secrete her secretes antigens into their bodily fluids. And the state put on evidence that Tony was a type, a secrete or so he was likely to be the perpetrator. What the state withheld was that Miss Flynn was also an A type secretan. So that meant that the fluids in Miss Flynn's body were just as likely her own.

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Now, that is the only physical evidence that the state put on at trial. All the rest of the evidence was circumstantial. So Detective gave misleading. While that's not even a strong enough way of putting it, but they gave misleading testimony during the trial.

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The prosecutor asks Detective Zahler, did Tony ever make a statement to you? And he said, Tony said to me, When I'm indicted, can you let me know? The defense asked for copies of notes. Detectives said he didn't have any notes at the time. The defense was not entitled to the police reports the defence lawyer made an objection. The judge ordered the prosecutor to review the police reports. Prosecutors did so and said there is no report of any oral statement that Tony made to Detective Salha.

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Well, a couple of years later, when we made a Public Records Act request, we found that type statement by Detective Zahler where he wrote, Tony said, If I'm indicted, that is critical. And why is when important? Because during the closing arguments, the prosecutor hammered on those words and said this proves he had a guilty mind if I'm indicted when I'm indicted.

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So, Tony, what was your sense of things while the jury was deliberating?

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I fully expected to be found not guilty. I mean, I didn't do it. You know, I look, I did time. I copped out. I had aggravated robbery that copped out. I went to prison. I did my time. You get you commit a crime, you make a deal. In this case, there's no deal making here. I didn't do it.

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But they took whatever they could muster and whatever they could hide to tell their story. And the jury bought it lock, stock and barrel. What was that moment like when they found you guilty?

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What the judge said guilty. I slammed my hand. It wasn't a conscious thing. It was just the reaction I slammed my hand on the table and I said, that's bullshit. They pulled the jury and they were asking the jury, you know, is this your verdict is issued? Recall 12 of them. And as they're doing it, I kept saying, no, man, that's bullshit. And then he. Right.

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And Dale, this is a laundry list of crimes that he was convicted of.

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Tony was convicted of aggravated murder, aggravated burglary, two counts of rape. What's interesting about the rape counts is that they were carbon copy counts, meaning the state said count one of rape vaginalis and or oral rape, second count of rape vaginalis and or oral rape. So we don't have a distinction between the vaginal rape and the oral rape.

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And this becomes critical later on in post conviction litigation, Tony was sentenced to 15 to 25 years for the burglary and rape counts for a sum of 45 to 75 years. And he received the death sentence for the murder charge. Can you talk about I mean, death row? It's it conjures up really everyone's worst nightmares. Back then, they took me straight there, Lucasville Penitentiary, where death row was, and they put me right there in the cell on death row.

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Death row is not like being in prison. It's a whole different experience, 10 times worse than prison. You know what? I'm not going to the parole board and going home next week because I stole a car. These people are going to kill me if I don't get back. Sometimes you don't have the time or the energy to cook, especially something healthy and fresh. Thankfully, there's daily Harmons now daily harvest, get this, they delivered delicious food, all built on organic fruits and vegetables right to your door.

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That's promo code conviction for twenty five dollars off your first box at Daily Harvest Dotcom Daily Harvest Dotcom in nineteen eighty nine. The Federal Court on a rape case in Florida ruled that DNA evidence is solid scientific evidence that can be used to show a person committed a crime or not. Immediately shot by trial lawyer filed a motion requesting DNA testing. Then nineteen eighty nine. An attorney for Tony requested files from the Flynn autopsy. At the time, the vaginalis at oral slides could not be located.

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They were assumed to have been destroyed. But nineteen ninety one is when you got involved, right? And this is when the three slides were magically located in 1991.

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Forensic Science Associates, at the request of the Cuyahoga County Coroner's Office, conducted DNA testing. I found out about the three slides in 1992 when I got a phone call from the county prosecutor saying we found these three slides. Now we would like some of Tony's blood to compare it to the slides. These are the same people who withheld evidence. This is the same county where the coroner's office was a sloppy lab. This is the same police department where the detective lied on the stand.

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We need to be damn sure we know where these slides came from. When we start digging into it, what we learned is that all slides are marked with the county coroner case number. In Tony's case, it was one nine zero seven three seven, something like that. There was one slide that was marked L nine zero. So it was mis numbered. And that slide turned out to be an important slide. And I resisted providing a DNA sample from Tony for testing because I was concerned about the chain of custody of those slides.

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And there's a bit of a twisted history about these three slides. So Cuyahoga County first denied the existence of these three slides in nineteen eighty nine, then in nineteen ninety one, they magically find the slides, the missing slides. There's three of them. Two are marked properly, as Dale mentioned, one majdal and one oral, but the other one is supposed to be an oral slide and is not marked properly. The L nine zero slide that Dale mentioned in nineteen ninety one, a lab called Forensic Science Associates was tasked with developing DNA profiles from all three slides and with the available technology and methods, was only able to develop a testable male DNA profile from the oral slide marked L nine zero.

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Now, Cuyahoga County had Tony's blood, hair and saliva samples that he had provided during the investigation. But for whatever reason, those samples were not available to FSA. For comparison, Dale rightfully had serious concerns about the chain of custody, and so he denied access to a new DNA sample from Tony. So the L nine zero slide sat in a freezer until 2006, when FSA used the most current technology and methods to test it. And in 2007, a federal district court ordered that Tony provide a sample for comparison to L nine zero.

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So a report is generated and the prosecution says that Tony couldn't be excluded as a contributor. But for some strange reason, this report never makes it into evidence. And you think with how fervently the state is trying to hang on to the conviction that a report like that would have been the centerpiece of post conviction?

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The state never presented those reports. Thoughts to either the federal court or the state court during the fourth post conviction hearing, what the state did was simply waved around these reports, but they never offered those reports into evidence. When we tried to take depositions of the folks from FEMA who did the testing and generated the reports, the state prevented us from doing so and told the judge that they were not going to present these reports. So all of this information about this oral slide and whatever test results the state has has never been tested through the adversary process.

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None of the people who generated these documents have testified under oath, and they have not been subject to the rigorous scientific scrutiny before something like this is introduced into evidence. So bottom line, the oral slide is not evidence.

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If this was really something that could have hurt Tony, I'm going to speculate here. But I mean, it seems pretty obvious they would have admitted it as evidence. They have had so many opportunities to do so, but they've declined every single time. So that brings us to 2009 when, Daylon, the team found out that back in 2000, an assistant prosecutor requested that the Cuyahoga County coroner's office test the two remaining properly labeled vaginalis and oral slides that had previously not yielded a DNA profile.

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We were preparing for a hearing in the habeas corpus case, and the judge allowed for some discovery. And one of the people that we deposed was the coroner from Cuyahoga County. She brought documents that we had subpoenaed. And we first learned that in 2000, the state did another test, got results, didn't share those results with us.

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And in 2012, we went back to state court for the fourth time and had a hearing on that evidence that was tested in 2000. So 2014, the defense expert, Dr. Rick Stelle, was able to prove conclusively that Tony could be excluded as a contributor to the vegetal slide and the two unknown male contributors were, in fact, present. So Tony was acquitted of the vaginalis rape charge acquitted and the second count of rape was dismissed on the grounds that it lacked specificity.

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And it was one year later, March six, 2016, let the appeals court three to zero. They all three agree. Yes, DNA proves I was innocent and I got out that day. OK, go to that moment if you can. Oh, man. I always been waiting for this moment to happen. And my daughter, Eleanor, the one that I kissed goodbye when I went to turn myself in, she came out with two of my grandchildren, my granddaughter Raynham and grandson Nevine.

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Oh, man. First time I got to see them in person. You know, I called my wife. Now I got a hold of her. I let her know I'm home.

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So tell us about your wife, Beth. How did that all develop?

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I've known her like 20 some years. You know, she she was visiting me in prison and everything. And I've been in love with that woman for many years. I mean, I knew that I was going to get out someday. We had decided when I got out, then we'll see if we're going to have a relationship and if we can have one, because I'm like a lab experiment, come for her. And the kids would come over several times a week.

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You know, when I first got home, finally I said, I don't have to wait. I said, you know, I love you. And she's like, you know, I love you for what I said. So, you know, we're old. What are we waiting for? Let's get married. But not in my life. Locked up. I want to live. And she's like, OK, but I got two granddaughters that you're going to have to raise.

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And I'm like, I got no problem. I didn't get a chance to raise my kids. Now I'm getting a second chance at life.

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I'm sure everyone's wondering, OK, so why in God's name is he calling us from death row?

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Well, the state appealed to the Ohio Supreme Court. What the Ohio Supreme Court determined was that under the Ohio DNA testing statute that in order for a death row prisoner to get an evidentiary hearing on the issue of DNA, the prisoner has to make the request for the testing. What happened here is the state did the testing in 2000, kept it from us until 2009, and in 2012 through 2014, we present evidence that Tony is excluded as. The person who committed the rape in a single assailant homicide and what the Ohio Supreme Court did was it put form over substance because Tony did not request the DNA testing, he was not entitled to that hearing.

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So in the court's view, that hearing where he was exonerated of the rape charges never existed.

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So you from your death row cell were required to request the DNA that we saw didn't exist. That blew my mind that next Friday, my wife, she asked me to bake Mac and cheese. My other stepdaughter, she just moved into a place. You have a washer and dryer when I got the washer and dryer. Now I got to go pick the grandbabies that were raising Chloe in there, and I got to go pick them up from school. I got to take the dog to the vet.

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I got a washer dryer the back of the pickup truck. I do normal stuff that people do out there. You know, in life, you know, I'm loving every minute of it. And I get out of the truck and I'm heading to the porch. And here come these six cars. Man U.S. Marshals jump out Highway Patrol and Akron police. I went from my front yard to death road just like that. No facts change, no evidence change, nothing change.

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You don't get off death row and go home for nothing. It's like I'm in the twilight zone then, you know, I mean, I wake up every day. It's like, wow, I can't I just can't hardly understand what I'm doing here, man. Tony, I can only say that this will not stand. We will not allow this to stand. We're going to just grow this movement and we're going to find a way to help your team get you justice.

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Yeah. Law professor at Georgetown, Mark Howard and three of his students, they got interested in my case. They made a documentary. Then they set up a website.

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I guess they have a petition which is Justice for a Panov Edgecomb. Please go visit the website. There's a petition on the page and there will be a link to it in our episode bios. So please go there as well and shout out to the students for their great work. So it's now time for us to turn to the closing of the show. This is the part of the show where I, first of all, thank our distinguished guests. They'll be federal public defender advocate extraordinaire.

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Tony, thank you for being here with us. Hang in there, buddy. We're going to bring you home. And now I'm going to turn my microphone off, kick back, close my eyes and listen, Dale, you first and then Tony.

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Thank you, Jason. It's been almost 36 years since Tony was sentenced to death. Since then, as his case moved through the levels of appellate review, evidence that the state withheld at trial began to seep out the Secretan status of the victim. Other suspects lies by police and prosecutors uncovered. The problem was and still is that this case, like all death penalty cases, moved through the system. The courts put form over substance and declined to look at the merits of the claims.

[00:34:37]

What we have here is a wrongful conviction. How do we know that it's because Tony is excluded from a rape in a case where the state's theory is that there was a single assailant? This doesn't make sense to me as a lawyer and may not make sense, but people need to understand that the system is constructed this way. The system needs to be fixed and we need to right this wrong. In Tony's case, the team that has worked on this case over the years from my office, from Mark Divans office, from the law firm of Crowell and Moring, we're not going to give up.

[00:35:15]

Tony, over to you.

[00:35:17]

First of all, Jason, I want to thank you for having me on your podcast and for giving me this opportunity to tell my story. From the very beginning, I said I was innocent. I didn't commit this crime. I had no problem cooperating with the cops, giving them my hair, blood, saliva, answering all their questions. I'm innocent. Come on. Here I am. Thirty six years later, after being sent home, being found innocent and sent home, I'm back on death row on a technicality, amazing as it is.

[00:35:51]

And I'm still innocent. I didn't do this. All I want is my day in court. That's it. Just what are they afraid of? Let a jury see all the evidence. And I'm confident, I have no doubt in my mind that they'll find me not guilty. There's no doubt because I didn't commit this crime. And I think the evidence is factual. I don't know what I can say or do to convince people of my innocence. I would say that for years, just look at the evidence, look at the facts.

[00:36:20]

And again, I say I appreciate having this opportunity. And Jason, you're doing a good job here for society and I appreciate everything that you're doing. And I really appreciate what you're doing for me.

[00:36:40]

Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:36:44]

It really helps. And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence Project dialogue to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Awards the music and the show is by three time Oscar nominated composer J. Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at wrongful conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast.

[00:37:13]

Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flom is a production loba for good podcasts in association with Signal Company No. One.