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Lock the gate. All right, let's do this, how are you? What the fuck is what the fuck buddies? What the fuck nix? What the fuck? Stirrers, what the fuck? Let's see what more. What the fuck? It's these days, I don't I don't know what that's about, but welcome. What's happening. I'm Marc Maron. This is my podcast. WTF, how are you? Salma Hayek is on the show tonight. What am I doing.


What what do you mean tonight? Right now she's on the show in a minute. You know her from the movie she made with Robert Rodriguez. She made Frida. She's the executive producer of Ugly Betty, is using an independent movie that I love called Beatrice at Dinner. Talk about that a bit. She's currently in a movie called Bliss with Owen Wilson, which is a movie about living in a simulated reality and not knowing what is real and what isn't, which actually has a bit of relevance today.


So fucking coyotes, am I right? I got to be honest with you people.


I know sometimes I may come off as a dire, cynical, worked up, but I don't want to be misunderstood.


I don't want to be I don't think I'm negative. I don't think I'm a depressive. I think sometimes I'm more sensitive than others and more in tune with the frequencies that are causing me fear and panic, which I need to embrace. I think we should all embrace a little bit. You can do whatever you do to stuff those things down. I'm a magician. I will now bend my negativity into a positive. Please, folks, bear with me, bear with me.


Everything is so great, it's everything is just so fucking good, I'm feeling bad.


I'm happy to be alive today. Bend it, twist it.


Listen, I am feeling a little better today. I don't know what it is. I don't know I'm sorry. I'm not paying any lip service to the Super Bowl, which happened yesterday. But I recorded this before the Super Bowl. And I got to be honest with you. And it's not being condescending nor dismissive nor judgmental, but I had no fucking idea who's playing.


I could look it up. I don't care is that I'm not avoiding the information. I don't follow any of it. And I just don't know. But there's a lot of things I don't know.


I'm starting to realize that is we sort of find ourselves in our own bubbles and we are very specifically picking and choosing what we put in our brains. It's very easy to realize what you're tapped into and what you're not tapped into when the collective momentum is fragmented.


Yeah, there's a lot I don't know. And then my brain is sort of like, God, no one's watching that today.


It's like, no, you're not. Doesn't mean there aren't millions doing it just because it's not part of the information you're taking in. No, in my world nobody cares about. I'm surprised if they even have the game. That's how you know, if I'm not interested, they might as well cancel it. That's the narcissistic isolation bubble of judgment based on your own engagement with the world, which is all limited to a very specific set of choices for each of us right now.


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But the coyotes, man, the fucking coyotes, the middle of the night now, I you know, I live in a neighborhood, it's an old neighborhood. And but, you know, it's L.A. and it's not far from a hill, a mountain of sorts.


And I hadn't right when I moved in here after it rained once there was a large coyote in my front yard.


Something is shitting in my front yard, occasionally in the same place as if to prove a point sort of off. It's not like any place I walk around, but it sort of in the same place off to the left of the front of the house. Just some wild things taking a dump to make a point.


I don't know what the point is. I don't know what kind of animal it is.


Maybe it's a coyote, but I saw a big one there once and it was kind of menacing. I don't know why we assume they're not wolves. You're not going to attack. They are.


Coyotes are kind of pussies. I know they represent something.


The trickster, the coyote is the trickster in the. Indigenous peoples spiritual universe. The coyote. Is an omen of an unfortunate event or thing in your path or in the near future, why? Why do we have to do that? That's from Navajo mythology. It is certainly an unfortunate omen for any cat, any outdoor cat or small dog that, you know, 99 percent of the time the coyote is not a good thing.


Let's see, what is this coyote legend from the Oregon Encyclopedia? Nonetheless, Coyote is a very popular figure, playing his role of scheming, self-seeking trickster, stirring up trouble, testing and violating moral precepts is basically a comic cum coyote is comic. He provides a vicarious escape from social restrictions, that is, until his usual comeuppance for such outrageous misbehavior reinforces them. Man, these coyotes and some of these some of these myths say he helped the gods invent the people.


Why is the coyote what is oh, here we go, this is important. What does coyote poop look like? Hmm. Coyote scats a rope like in typically filled with hair and bones, unlike dog scat, scat coyotes, you scat to communicate.


Oh, so that scat so has been scatting in my front yard is definitely not a coyote because it looks like looks like a vegetarian scat to me.


But the coyote is a trickster, a tough audience.


But, man, I heard a pack of them the other night, I was laying in bed, woke me up at three thirty in the morning, just cackling, reveling coyotes, someone told me that they're mating. Now, I always assume when they're laughing and yelping, it's because they've just ruined somebody's life by eating their pet. But no, they might just be out on the they might just be out at the club. They might just be looking for love, I don't know.


I don't know, but it woke me up, but Buster swept right through it, Buster didn't give a fuck. Then the next day we heard him and Buster was freaked out. I assume that Buster has a memory that he was out on the streets till he's about two months old, running around a wormy, a wormy little kitten.


It's gone through some papers and stuff, and I saw the history of my cats, lives and deaths, Buster was born in March, we assume March 2016.


The Trickster's are out, they are an omen to your pet. If you're having trouble meeting your goals or difficulty with relationships or trouble sleeping or you're feeling stressed or depressed, better help is available, better help offers secure online professional counselors who can listen and help. It's simple. And you just fill out a questionnaire to help you assess your specific needs and better help will match you with your own licensed professional therapist. Then start communicating in under 48 hours, log into your account any time and send unlimited messages to your counselor.


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All right, OK, so I watched Nomad Land, which I thought was great. I was wary about it and then I watched it and I had no idea.


I mean, obviously, Frances McDormand is always amazing and I guess some actual nomad people, American nomads, people who are out there going from regional job to regional job, living in their cars or campers.


But it's a beautiful movie, but it's really about grief. It's a sad movie, but it is not. It's an elevation of the human spirit at the end.


So it's a little heavy hearted, but it really is a movie about about grief. When you look at is this a movie about people who just have a community of wandering people? Is it about homeless people? No, it's about situational displacement, but it's really a movie about personal grief. And it's quite a beautiful film.


And I recommend it. I recommend it. Salma Hayek, we had a pretty tight hour here to talk.


And I think we got into some stuff kind of I think we connected it sometimes. It's tricky because I know she's doing a lot of these. She's talking to a lot of people. She's going on and off 10 minute junkets. She's she's been sort of flogging this movie Burlesque. Is that what you say? Is that the right word, which I thought was a pretty good movie. I hadn't seen Owen Wilson in a while.


I hadn't seen Salma in a while. And then I got to talk to her face to face on the video, which was daunting because she's powerful. So this is me talking to Salma Hayek about her movie Bliss with Owen Wilson, which is now streaming on Amazon Prime video and many other things.


All right. So. So enjoy listening to this. This is me and Salma Hayek. Hello, Simon. How are you? I'm good. Yeah, nice to see you. You look nice.


Thank you. Thank you. You have a big mike. I know. A little intimidated. What are you drinking? I am drinking lemon, cayenne pepper and maple syrup. Really?


So. And its. That's in water. That's water. Yeah. And is that is that is that supposed to keep you from getting covid.


No, I wish it was supposed to give me a wake for you.


Oh really. What time is it there.


I just didn't sleep last night. It's only six thirty. But if you didn't have a good night's sleep then why were you freaking out about something.


Yeah. What. So, you know, I hate when I can't sleep.


Oh, it's the worst do you usually like it doesn't happen to me too often, but if your brain starts going, it's a problem.


And, you know, I don't need a lot of sleep. I sleep like only like five hours a night. Me too. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I wake up at 5:00 in the morning and go to sleep late at night, but if I sleep for hours and 15 minutes I'm not really as lonely and my five.


But what do you do. Like I'm the same way I get up at six thirty in the morning but now with you know with everything limited every day. Things like two weeks.


Not to me at all. It's magical. This is the first of all, I have a production company in L.A., but I live in London. Right. So it's five o'clock. I still work because I get to talk to people in L.A.. Oh, yeah, right. I like I call even family. Sometimes I wake them up in Mexico, but I usually don't call them right away because five o'clock is the time where I get to be alone.


Yeah. All right. Quiet. You married with children? I'm a working mother that is married on top of it.


How old's your kids? I have from twenty four to thirteen.


How many? Four. And they're all there? No, only the thirteen. Oh, that's what.


Only I inherited three children before the thirteen. OK, ok. Right. That's mine.


Right. Right. And but they're spread out which just a thirteen year old job. But that's a mile.


Yes. For now. Yes. Because there was another one living with those. But she's been drafted. First of all now she's in university and she's been drafted by the French name. Yeah. One of jumping horses. Oh wow.


That's that's impressive. I don't know. I just the idea of being on a horse frightens me.


Oh, they're gorgeous animals.


Do you. But you write them. I used to ride them and then I had a very traumatic accident on a horse, on a horse. What happened? I was asked to ride horses for other people and sometimes to help out. Yeah, new horse arrived and he was crazy, right. And I got on the horse and started working the horse and the horse went insane. Yeah. And they started screaming at me was so bad he was bugging me against the rails.


Oh my God.


He said, jump off the horse, ok. Yeah. So I finally jump over the horse and for the I've never even heard of this before. He came back to try to kill me on the ground like a bull.




And he said, I mean, I had, I had I have some injuries and everybody came in to try to get the horse.


But yeah, I just didn't know the horse had that. And it's very rare, very almost impossible. And so I didn't write again. And but I do rescue horses. I have a ranch. Yeah. And I have the horses, but they're free in the field and and I have ridden horses for movies. Sure. I had to do a lot of tricks on the horse, so I've built myself up for it. And just lately I shot a movie called Eternals and they don't want me to say anything about it.


So I might be in trouble. But you didn't say anything yet. I didn't sleep last night.


I can always tell them that. Yeah, I ride a horse in that movie and I have now.


I don't think that's a spoiler, is it? It is, because it's a movie. How hard.


It's kind of strange to to have an eternal creature on earth riding a horse, but I kind of healed it this last time.


You healed the horse, you healed your fear and I fear.


Yeah, my my anxiety about.


So when you were right, when you had the injury with the Scary Horse, were you a kid? I was twenty one. Was that in Mexico. Yes.


That was something you were doing at that time was training horses. That was a thing you did for fun.


Oh OK. I was, I was an actress already. No. Oh yeah. Oh already. But you're just like the horses. How much family do you still have over there.


Hundreds of hundred Mexican police. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of them. I'm also fifty four. So they start piling up with the kids and the more kids and more kids, Mexican, Lebanese and Catholic.


A lot of kids. A lot of kids. Yeah. How does Mexican Lebanese happen? Your father was Mexican Lebanese. Yes. How did that what's the history of that connection?


My mother, Mexican, Spanish. My grandfather came to Mexico. My father was born in Mexico.


OK, so your grandfather was Lebanese? Yes. And my grandmother completely the opposite of the typical story of an immigrant.


My grandfather actually came from a well-to-do family with money to Mexico and lost it all.


On what? On textiles. He had a partner, OK.


Oh, kind of took it.


The bad partner got the partner that runs off with the money.


Yeah, well, that's interesting.


So your mother is Mexican, Spanish and your your father is really sort of Lebanese, you know, from going way back. Yeah.


My my grandparents on my mother's side were Spanish now. So that must mean that. Was there an interesting hybrid of food of between Lebanese and.


My God. Yes. And you know what? I didn't know that that, you know, the keeper was not Mexican Cuban. I was not Mexican. Right. Yeah. Yeah.


And my mother is a fantastic cook and my father is a fantastic eater. Yeah. And so I, I grew up eating a lot of really good food. I bet.


I mean, I, I'm excited about it.


I grew up in New Mexico and then there is the New Mexican food which is next, which is also great. Great chili baby. Green chili. Oh yeah. And Chili Gardening.


Now this movie I watched a movie last night, the new movie. I think we should talk about it a little bit because that's why you're here.


Now, let me just let me make sure I understand, like maybe I'm wrong and I'm not trying to to to be diminishing in any way. But is it a movie about a guy who who might have seen The Matrix, who has a nervous breakdown after his divorce and then eventually wakes up?


Mark, you got it perfectly right. Perfectly right. It was the movie designed to be a different movie, according to The Spectator.


Right now, he talked about this. The was the director. Yes. That's what he wanted to do.


A movie is kind of like interactive movie because. And, you know, before the performance, you had to do a performance that would work in the different versions, right?


Well, I mean, I thought that was kind of amazing that the two of you how much you committed and it was and you made it work like in the light because it's arguable. Like, I don't want to you know, it's hard not to I don't want to give away the movie. But whether or not you're real or not, you know, whatever was going on around the crystals, you know, it was like drug addicts. Right.


So you guys have this his main his main theme. It's drug addiction. Yes. Themes that for him, we're very important that we hit all those marks. And it was either a movie where there is a bliss world where everything is perfect and beautiful and people have lost the appreciation and everything is just gone for them. Yeah. So a scientist, which is mean me, creates different worlds in that simulation where people can go and experience a little. How do you say an ugly world?


Yeah, well you are a movie. I know reality so that you can come back and appreciate the reality that you have. So to what happened right now in Corona, you know, we thought we were living in a terrible world until they looked us down. And all of the sudden you said, wait a minute, it was nice to see a friend in the whole game. It was nice to know if the person talking to you hate you or likes you or is smiling or has bad teeth.


Right. And so that's one version.


And the other version is it's a movie about addiction that was very important for him, that he was not judgmental. And we could take kind of like a trip into when you're inside of it, that's your reality, right?


Right. And he takes you over. Yeah.


I thought it was an interesting way to do it because there are definitely moments with the two of you like especially that moment where, you know, he disappears and you're like, where were you?


You know, I know that it became clear to me that what we're seeing is that whether or not your character is reality or not, whatever they're going through is just flat out horrible. Drug addiction.


It's addiction. Yeah. Thank you. And so. So excited you brought this up, this scene, I'm going to tell you why, because you're also an actor and you're going to appreciate. OK, so for this scene he wanted from me.


Yeah. Not to have just some anxiety attack, right? Yes, and some emotional breakdown, right. I have to have the need for the drugs. Yeah, yeah. The need for him, because that's another kind of addiction.




The fear of being alone. Oh, whether it's losing your soul mate. Right. That you're losing it to another reality or whether it's losing your partner that you do the drugs with. Right. And it becomes the most interesting challenge. My character believes that all these emotions are not real. Yeah, so as an actor. I have to play all that, but come in and out because I'm trying to convince myself that what is wrong, I shouldn't be feeling this because I know it's not real.


She's dragging me to him. But wait a minute. Why did they take. So I had to play the drug addict, the son in this same scene. Yeah. And he could do it, too. Not real. Then the audience don't go with it. Right. And if you do it just about one thing, then the audience don't feel the need for the drug and for him as a drug or the desperation that you're losing your soul mate to another reality that you created.


And it's your fault, right?


I thought I thought you did a great job because, like, I had that moment, you know, I've got to everybody's got a past and we've all dealt with different types of people in our lives. But that moment where, you know, you're just like, well, why are you like that? Screaming Where were you like? I thought it was chilling because, you know, I've been in some bad relationships in my life and somebody else is going to say, she's over the top.


No, I've seen this happen. Yes.


No, that's true. I seen it happen. And I was sort of amazed that, you know, that own I guess because of, you know, his history to you guys played this very realistically. And I realized as an actor, it must have been challenging because of the nature of how the reality in the movie was shifting. But but when you guys are in it and connecting around the crystals like it felt very genuine to me. Yes.


And then, I mean, if you play if you're going to examine it from an addiction point of view. You know, there's so many justifications around it. Yeah, oh, yeah, exactly, exactly. And all the justifications you're making are the justifications of just regular, desperate drug addiction. But in the context of this other reality, her you know, her mental illness. Scientists talking. Yeah, it's crazy.


The obsessive compulsive nature of it, like so many for you. So many for me. Oh, my God. We don't have enough. You never have enough when you're an addict.


Not yet. Tell me about it. Or food or anything. OK, yeah.


So what scientifically. Maybe you really don't have enough. Right. Right, right, right. Oh I see. Really sophisticated. If you really examine the film, it's very unique. It's different.


It's definitely different. I didn't know what to do with it for about half of the movie. Like I was like what is it? Is this going to be stupid? What are we doing here? And then I started to piece together, you know, intellectually, you know what what what the tools were in terms of like, is this real? Is it not real, you know, in that right.


Because this scene where, you know, you guys are in the in the utopia, you know, and then you you say like, don't you remember what you invented and you pull out this thing and I'm like, oh my God, that that that that's something a child would invent, you know, like it's not you know, it's not a real invention. Right. So so I started to think in terms of like, is this just going on in his head?


So it does play games with you, you know?


Well, and also the justification for that was that I was the real scientist and he was just kind of like a dude that was not.


Yeah. Just sitting there smoking some level who was just the nice guy, you know. Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This woman, which is a lot to take. It's complicated, huh.


And she tries to make the most of it in a relationship. But you really love, don't you remember. Yeah, it's the silliest thing.


Yeah. Yeah. But it's kind of cool at the same time. Oh yeah. It was cool but it was sort of like is this possibly, you know, part of his imagination or his hallucination. Always even me.


I can't. Right. Right, right. It never existed. Yeah.


I have a hard time with, with that, with fantasy and science fiction. But I stayed with it and I in in, I locked in and I took it for what it was. It was good. It was good because I can identify with addiction.


However, I will tell you this, the results are very interesting. The science fiction film has so many parallels to a reality we're living today.


I think that's true. The most important one is that without going to a different dimension, without parallel reality, the different dimension, we're living in a world where different bubbles of people. Yes.


Are living in different realities. Yeah, scary for each one of them. It's completely real. Right. And when you hear them talk about friends that you thought you understood how they thought for years, they start talking about things that sound like sci fi and it makes complete sense to them.


Yeah. And then the scariest part about that reality that we're living in is that if you hear it too much, you'll start going like, well, maybe I don't know.


Well, exactly. But that's the theme. The film is reflecting the living we're living in today. Yeah, metaverse. And but the beauty is that at least my character learns to be self selfless enough that even though she has sacrificed something very important, which I won't say what she learns to accept and to respect, the different people get to choose the realities.


Right. Yeah, but something like like like in the world we're living in right now, that's difficult because, you know, a line has to be drawn because some of those realities are threatening, you know, the world we live in.


Right. But for them, your reality is threatening the world they're living in. I know.


But at some point, Salma, we've got to call a crazy person a crazy person. Right.


But they are different pockets of crazy, you know, collectiveness, collective craziness in the markets. And they're thinking the same about yours and mine. I know, but but they're wrong.


Is wrong. But that's they're saying you're wrong. Yeah, but there has to be some there has to be some basic reality, don't you think?


That's what I thought. But you talk to them and it's really basic reality.


There is a lot of people and I'll tell you what, technology plays a big part because, of course, like I have a friend who thinks the world is it's not right that he's still your friend.


Yes, because he's been my friend forever and I'm not going to stop. We have to stop judging. No, you don't.


Not if a person thinks that the world is flat. You can not.


I have now like a year of discussion about it and a year of discussions.


You've had one of the things. Yes, I stop now, but in one of the things that, by the way, they laugh, I think we're so naive and it is impossible. And and they say, I can't show you in the Internet how many scientists have proved it and how many pilots have seen it. And it's a conspiracy against the whole world. And and I go, I'm sorry. There is one place where the world stops operating in complete conspiracy and that's economics.


And I said it would cost too much money to make to pay all the pilots of all the different countries to say the same line. Yeah, this is impossible. And we can go on and on and on and on and on. And I'm telling you this, what? There's many other conspiracies, but they think that was naive or I mean, think about religions.


I know. And this is like so important for obviously the original conspiracy theories and they contradict each other, so we learn to live with our allegiance. Yeah, respecting the well-being of everybody. And this is where we need to find them and just respect the beliefs.


And if you're from one where you came from, OK, what I agree with you, but but like, you know, you have beliefs here. But then, you know, if we're going to let people and indulge them in, hey, man, you know, you have the right to believe whatever you want to believe, but we have to accept science.


OK, so you think you're right? I believe in science. Good. But it's not so simple, my friend.


All the religions, if you go through science, none of them are right. If you start. Exactly. That's fine. It gets worse because now there are some scientists that are contradicting scientists. Right? Right.


So they're the dangerous ones like, oh, OK. Well, they think that the other side I know that science, but they're wrong.


They're wrong. OK. OK, but you had Mr. Science in your ear and you had Bill Nye in the movie. Yeah, yeah. Did you enjoy hanging out with him?


Oh, yes, I enjoyed hanging out with him. But you know what I enjoy? I enjoyed how much he enjoyed, you know, being there and that. Yeah.


Yeah. So now did you find like was that great movie that you were in Beatrice at dinner?


Oh, thank you for watching that.


That was great. You were great in that. And that was really kind of an exploration of class and, you know, like all of the all the good stuff and, you know, and it was really kind of very surprising ending. Did you feel like white now? Who made that movie? What makes you take a movie like that just because the character is so great?


Oh, it's funny you talking about the movies like Michael Apted, the director that Mike White wrote it, right?


Yeah. And I think their genius. Yeah, they did a good girl together.


Walk together. And their friends, they're my friends, we tried to do a movie with me a long time ago. About two lesbian women raising a child. Yeah, and they said no, no, too risque. Julianne Moore was going to be my wife, but not the wife because it was and we make that movie never got done because of its time. It never happened. It wasn't Annette Bening.


And I thought Julianne Moore and Annette Bening didn't do a movie like that with Mark Ruffalo anyway. So go ahead. Yes.


Years later, a different one, right. When it was OK to make it right. And then I actually hired him into that show I produced called Ugly Betty. And I've always been a fan of Mike. And then one day they came to my house and Mike said, I have an idea for a movie. I want to spend a little time with you because I want to write something for you. And I was forty nine at the time, I was about to be forty nine like a week before they came to my house, we spent many hours, he talked to me.


I said, What is it about? And he said, I'm not going to tell you, but what do I play? But do I have a good role? I don't care about it. I don't care.


I'll do anything you want because I really respect you. Yeah. And their friends and said it's a lead.


And then he got and started writing anything. And then a week later I got an email from him saying Happy Birthday with the entire script.


In one week he wrote it ten days maximum and I would have done anything with them just because sometimes you just took these are two movies and it's so interesting that you brought that one up. That I was so free because I didn't care if they were good or bad at the end, I didn't care if people saw it or liked them. Right.


I wanted to explore the character in a specific way and have the freedom to make mistakes and go there and do my best and try something different.


Yes. And not your usual go to things. Yes. We as actors, sometimes they start working and they become your worst enemy, right?


What you're expected, what people think you do like, what do you keep doing it?


I mean, how many actors that you've been watching for a long time, you say, oh my God, it's kind of the same thing. But even if it's not, it's like what works for them.


So you would. So I like to always continue to learn and grow and change.


And so I I loved it.


I thought it was challenging, challenging for the range, challenging in many ways.


And also when we were shooting it, I was not allowed to move my hands or my face. And the camera is on my face right here the entire time.


And on the second day I said, no one's going to like this film.


Everybody is going to be so boring looking at my face. And then when I saw the movie, it was kind of movie, what even without me trying to and I had to train myself not to think about not moving it, also not doing anything doing that.


That must have been hard so that I didn't distract me. Yeah.


And as you can see, I'm yeah, I you know what, once you get into the character then that's the character then that takes over the character.


Yeah. So, so, so these two movies like that one in this one, you know, were challenging because like you get like I, I can see that in this new one in blessed like you get pretty raw, you get pretty raw.


It's not caring, like I'm just going to give in my moment, give it it or not. Think about it and I'll think about it. You're going to like it. What they're going to think, you know, they're going to destroy my career. They're going to criticize my performance. I'm just going to do what the director wants. I just want to please the director because he deserves that, because he has a vision. A lot of times I work with directors.


They don't have a vision. Right.


And they just want you to do it, you know, do the Salma Hayek thing. Just do the thing. You do what I mean. But you've done a lot of even like that movie, like all you know, looking back on like Frida, I mean, that must have taught you everything about, you know, willingness to take chances and also willingness to put yourself out there and willingness to to be outspoken in what you do. So you've sort of had that in your mind all along.


But but. He was the first one, yeah, he didn't get a chance to do that, and that's because I produced it right. And I controlled it. Yeah, and it was my dream and my dream was very specific. With a different director would have been a different film, had a very clear vision of what film I wanted to make and why. And also I understood the character very, very well. I had been researching it for so many years.




I don't think people like like I remember I don't know that that I fully understood the importance of her in Mexico. Like, I can't even, like, fathom how important she was to you growing up.


It wasn't that important to Mexico at that time. Oh, really? And by the way, when she was alive, people diminish her work.


Right. Right. Because she was in the shadow of Diego. Yes.


And there was a movement, the muralists movement, where all the great minds around the world, an artist, because there were a lot of artists from other parts of the world and they were painting in the walls of Mexico a political interpretation of reality.


Yes. And and she was making little strange portraits. It was not a cool thing to do.


Are you glad that you stepped you know, it's like in your story, did you are you still friends with Robert Rodriguez? Yes. Yeah, I talked to him years ago.


And that guy, he's he's a character and he's got a pretty he's got a great vision. That guy, huh? Yes.


Yes. And my God, I learned someone was very close to him and his wife at the time. They were kind of my family. Yeah.


They had a lot of children. Yeah. Yeah.


And he was very funny because she was great. But every time she gave birth and at the beginning ones they didn't have a nanny. Yeah. She was exhausted from the birth. So I was the nurse of the babies. I would call me and let her rest and take the babies. Yeah. And I would sit with the baby in front of the editing machine with Robert Rodriguez. Yeah. And my God, I learned a lot. I love editing.


I love editing.


That's where it all happens. Right? I love it. It's it's fascinating.


When are you going to direct again? I am. I am going to direct so. Yeah, hopefully.


Hopefully. Oh God.


You've got a plan. You've got a project. I got a project. Yeah. I got a project that I've been thinking about for 17 years, 17 years.


Just sitting there in your head and you can't talk about it or else it'll ruin it, right.


No, I can talk about it a little bit. I don't know if people are going to be not sitting just there. You know, it's very ambitious. Yeah, it's very complicated. It's very expensive. It's technical. It's commercial, but it's technical. Yeah. Like, there was some things that I'm glad I didn't do before because the technology is so much better to do it now. Yeah. I'm going to see if anybody trust me with the money soon.


I have the script. I wrote it.


You wrote the whole thing. Yeah. And it's your idea. It's based on a novel or anything. No. What's it about. So to invite me back, No, I will. Here's a question that just came up and, you know, obviously it's something you've talked about before and obviously, you know, it's it's it's heavy stuff.


But I'm curious because I found myself asking the question yesterday because Evan Rachel Wood, you know, came out with, you know, with her experience with Marilyn Manson, the abuse of experience, which was he oh, she went out with him for years and he kind of like manipulated her and abused her and, you know, for four years.


All right. And that was years ago. And, you know, I'm happy that she she spoke out. But there was that question in my head, which was like, why? Why does it take so long?


You know? And then when I was like, getting ready to talk to you and I saw you address that, that, you know, there's something that that women living in this business and living in this world that they've been taught to accept and try to live with. But like, how do you answer that question? Why why do you think it takes so long to talk to speak out?


First of all, it depends on the type of abuse.


Yeah. But normally it takes you sometimes time to accept it to yourself.


Mm. That there was abuse and the level of abuse, right, because you have it framed in a different way. There's part of the brain that thinks like I just have to get through it or I just have to deal with it.


Yeah, right, right, right. Well, there's so much to deal with it. Or is it once it's once it happens once or twice. And you didn't get out with their whole psychological study about why you don't get out, because there's a process of first they break your self-esteem, they create also a goal.


How do you say when you got a co-dependency?


Yes, co-dependency. Right. Then they keep breaking you psychologically and emotionally.


So it's done in a way that the abuser also kind of instinctively knows what they're doing. Normally they come from abuse so that it's a whole thing. So it's hard to get out. Now, you're ashamed that you don't get out. So you have to say it's not really abuse me. I can deal with it. Rationalize. Finally, you get out and you say, I got out. I'm not a victim. Right. And you don't want people to identify you as a victim.


You got out. I survived it and you got out. You know, and why talk about it, it's my business, you know. Right, right. And then. Like. I wrote something for The New York Times of a situation I lived in with Harvey Weinstein. Yes, yeah.


And. I did you know, I didn't have a relationship with Harvey Weinstein. Let me clarify that I had a working relationship with Harvey Weinstein that was abusive in many ways. He didn't get away with what he wanted to get away.


I have to clarify what the thing is that. It was traumatizing and. I actually was very smart. For the five years in trying to get free, done on how I handle it, because I wouldn't even let him see any weakness. I was very, very struck, but afterwards when I would go home, sometimes I did the press for weeks. Yeah.


From that encounter that he probably however. I survived it. I didn't do anything with him that I you know, I didn't do anything with him. I got the movie made against his will.


I was clever enough to corner him legally to make a film he didn't want to make because he was not getting what he wanted out of me for doing the movie. And he still had to do it.


He made my life miserable while we were shooting it. And I came out of it and I said I won. He I beat him at his game.


Yeah. I'm not a victim. I healed. I'm a I'm a fighter. I'm strong.


When everybody started coming out with the stories. I realize I held only one part. Because I had no idea what this woman was going through, and it's almost like just hearing them going through it, that I was going through it again and I started spiraling down again. So I really actually didn't completely heal it.


Right. And. Until I wrote that piece that it took me a while to get it down into paper and I said, what's the point already? Everybody else. But I also had something to say that people were not mentioning that it's not only for women. It was not just the sexual, it's the mental abuse within work. Yes, the bully, right. And he abused a lot of men, too. So anyway, that really heated and it heated because in my case, it came out as a part of many women, like an army of women standing together.


So that's what healed me. So why you wait so long? Because you push it on your subconscious, you don't want to think about it and then something happens in your life that you say, oh my God, it was worse than I thought.


Yes. Was so much worse than I thought.


And you think it's fair to yourself to acknowledge it and talk about it, but for everybody is different. It takes time. It's the right.


And also, I think what it speaks to and in it. He spoke to it a bit in The New York Times article.


And I know this is going back a bit, but, you know, these these this method of working around, you know, men in the industry, around men in general has been in place forever, that you were I guess people are brought up, women are brought up to believe this is the way this works and men are brought up to believe that this is the way it works and that it's OK.


Yes, they did were brought up to believe that. And they got away systematically. Yes. So it's not I feel for them to, uh.


You know, right, it's like it's wrong what you should do it anyway, because you can and it's terrible. Do you have empathy for them? I have empathy for everyone. That's that's good. Did you always believe in second chances? Yes, but I also believe in consequences. That makes sense. I believe the consequences so that you can really deserve a second chance. Yes. And you can really understand the balance of what's wrong and right and good and bad and real and not real.


Right. Right. So you like because there is a sort of like, you know, the momentum of the way things sort of pick up. I think a lot of times another reason that people don't speak out is because, you know, there's going to be consequences, both good and bad, just for for sharing your story. I mean, I know from just talking to women on this show that almost always, if I have a woman guest, there's going to be a whole army of frustrated, angry, weird little men who are going to make shitty comments.


And, you know, I write. So I imagine after a certain point, it's like the decision also hinges on why do I want to deal with that shit? Do you know what I mean? Right.


You know, they're going to say, why do you have empathy? It's not that I say, oh, poor thing. That's not what I mean. But I do have empathy, for example, for their families, for their children and how I. I can understand that. They're going through a hard time, but they deserve it, right, because they're leaving the consequences, right. But I feel sad for the whole thing altogether. Those my empathy.


I wish he hadn't done it. I wish his family didn't have to go through it. I wish the victim didn't have to go through it. I don't just think, oh, he's a horrible person. Nobody is the only one thing. There's other aspects of every human being. I know.


It's not interesting that we live in an age where because of click bait and other things, everybody there's this there's this force in culture that makes the wants to make people one thing. And and if you don't, like, get on board with the one thing and you still have empathy or you still respect the other parts of that person, you're some kind of of of monster just as bad as them, you know what I mean? But people are complicated.


And let me let me use an example. And, of course, I'm going into trouble again here. Hilaria Baldwin. The controversy about do you know what I know, I know that story. What do you make of it? Why are they going after this woman? What is this for? Why are they going after this wonderful girl? Lovely mother, great wife. I mean, Alec has never been better. Yeah.


Alec, you know, she makes him happy. Why are they going after this woman? She's been going to Spain since two six months old. Yes, she was. She was born in Boston.


I knew she was born in Boston. She told me she was born in Boston. So it is her story. So what happens within the story? I mean, different interpretations. Let's say that what happens if she identifies with that? If she identifies. Right. All right. Who is she hurting?


Well, that's I thought that, too, when because people wanted to make it seem like it was some sort of scam and what kind of scam? She obviously identifies more strongly and feels better, you know, identifying with the part of her that that respects her Spanish background in terms of living there.


And her parents are still living there. Yeah. You know, the kids are speaking Spanish. They go to Cleveland. What if who is she hurting? She's not selling top in the corner. You know, she's not an actress. But then getting the roles of the actors that are Spanish, she's hurting no one. Why are they so mean to this person? And so on. And some friends say to me, she's appropriating our culture. How is she?


Why are you not flattered?


Exactly. Identifies with our culture. And now we have to think in terms of I don't I mean, why not?


Why do we go after these people of all the lying on the last years in our lives that have caused a lot of damage, like guys are not just in the last year, starting from the chemical weapons.


Yeah. That we never found and we went to war for.


Right. Right. But let's go after Hillary. And I'm not just so that not go to the typical examples. Let's go after this girl.


Why, yeah. Nice girl. Yeah. And you've known Alec for a long time and you work with Alec. And, you know, I'm sure you probably you'd probably talk to him through this and and you think I didn't Mark because I didn't want to call.


I don't even know exactly what I didn't want to call and feed into the thing or all kinds of. I thought he was going to go away really fast because it's so ridiculous, you know? Right. But, yes, women normally we are targeted very strongly sometimes for really silly things. Yeah.


And and you think that is just basic misogyny, just basic, you know, male anger.


I mean, I kini I really don't see I don't have it in me to think that way. But it seems reactively true that any time a woman says anything publicly that it's made into a mountain and a lot of like primary, like a lot of people get weird and angry.


And I don't I don't know how to I will explain to you, because somewhere along the line, our voice must have been very threatening that it is uncomfortable. It's been uncomfortable through history to let us have a voice. That's why we didn't have the vote forever. Yes, the expectations for women are so high. I grew up I grew up Catholic, and you have to imagine that when you read that Bible. The two most significant women are the virgin and the whore.


Yeah, in order to be the most beautiful thing in the world, which is a mother, you can't live up to that virgin who didn't have intercourse to cause to have the children were never going to live up to that.


Right. OK. Right.


The one woman that did have the intercourse. Was the whole ah, yeah. And so for men, it's like, what do we are supposed to expect for women? There are such high expectations of us today, which we're living in the modern world. And we say, no, we want equal pay. Now. You have to think that you have to work twice as hard and be twice as good to get half the the pay at the same time, you're expected to spend all that time trying to prove yourself in the workplace, but you're still expected to spend the time with your kids and your husband and be a good mother and be on top of the school, which now sends you three thousand emails of what, one thousand activities?


But that's kind of your job, too, right? Not to mention the house has to be in perfect conditions. You have to be in a good mood and nice and you have you cannot age.


You have to be on top. Yeah, it's a lot. That's a lot, Salma.


And God forbid you make a mistake when you talk. Yeah. It's a lot of pressure.


Well, yeah. And that was the thing like, you know, the weird thing about reading, I read a piece about you in when you made the when you directed that the children's film The Maldonado Miracle.


Yeah. Yeah.


But there is this moment where, like what you're saying, all the things you're saying about women right now is that Harvey Weinstein shamelessly called you and the director of Freedom. I forget her name. What's her name.


Oh yes. Julie Taymor. Ball busters. Right. But he he had no shame about that. But you know, that that in and of itself is minimizing, considering the amazing amount of work and talent and effort and proficiency that was going into what you were doing, the amount of money I made him.




And he's just like he said that like it's OK to say that to minimize like that's that thing to put you in that box.


Mark, I didn't feel minimized. No, I redeemed. Yes, I bust your balls. Yeah. You have your balls busted.


Yeah. Julie and I were like, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I did not feel insulted. Yeah.


Well, do you feel insulted.


Will you do you feel like now do you feel in your life, you know, and in your work, do you feel like there is a shift happening lately.


But I'll tell you, when I did free that it came out, I did not get one role that was different than the other sexy roles that I was getting that had no me to mean not nothing changed, right? Nothing changed. Nominated for an Oscar, nothing changed. And then that's why I directed that film. My agent told me we have to be careful because directors don't like women to direct actresses to direct. They're very protective. I won an Emmy for best director.


And I didn't work for three years and I didn't even go to pick it up. I didn't even. There was no press about it. There was very little. Why do you think that is? Why do you how much you eat for three years? She only does it. Is it racial or is it they don't want somebody in the set. That might not look, it was really when I was in my thirties. I was pretty much the only woman that had successfully produced because I also did a very good hit show, Ugly Betty.


Television and film, many Academy Awards. And I had directed and I had a successful career as an actress. Yes. And I was an activist. Yeah. Nobody ever wrote about it.


There was no American. And by the way, I was Mexican Arab. There was no other American that had done that either. Yeah. Jodie Foster had directed, but she never had a TV show on network television that she produced. And and there was like two or three of us.


Yeah. This is before Angelina, who is amazing. And I think she's a tremendous director, just before she directed it before before all of these.


And nobody even would write about it.


I wish they were still looking at me like, oh, the sexy Mexican chicken dinner. Yeah, so that's like that's the old system still in place, really. They didn't want to see me as anything else and now you feel it's a little different. Now it's different and it's a lot different and it change really fast.


And of course, there's a lot more to change. We got to take the all the winds we got to take acknowledge them and feel them in. And I'll tell you, it's really funny how life works because. I wrote that piece. And. I had my freedom and I was insecure about directing it and writing it is very difficult film to write and I kind of wrote something and I was nervous. And then I wrote this piece and it was in The New York Times and it became the number one article in The New York Times for the year.


And then they chose it as a small piece, as a small group of articles to go for the Pulitzer Prize. And we won.


Yeah. And they used to call my my manager and say, who wrote that for her? Who wrote that for and all by myself?


And so I said, you know what, I can write.


And then I went and worked on the script and I sent it around and turns out I can really write. And if I didn't have all of that, I would have never known because they put so much insecurity on you, right? What it's hard to find it.


You tried it right. You try to fit into their expectations or you start believing maybe that they're right, that that's what you are, that you have those limitations.


Did you go pick up your pooter? No, no, it's for The New York Times. OK, good night. He was a part of it I presented.


Well, I mean, I think you do amazing work and it sounds like, you know, personally, the growth that you experience has sort of spread out because of your voice into a more cultural momentum, which is kind of an amazing thing to be part of.


Yeah, but I survived long enough to be a part of it. Yes. Well, you know what? You're not you're not a broken person now.


And you speak for those people that can't speak, you know. And you know what?


I'm not that angry either. That's good.


That you that's that's what made me survive. Yeah.


Yeah. And also, I think good parents. You must have had good parents. Yeah, yeah, I do, I do. They built you properly. Yes, yes. And I also built myself properly. Yes, both.


It's a nice combination. It's a nice combination. I'm sure you had good parents or not good parents, but who build you a lot of trial and error is what built you built yourself.


Right. Right. You keep getting up and you don't fall into a hole, you know.


You know, what's the difference between a winner and a loser? Well, how long it takes you to get up?


And I'm like, oh, I like that. It was great talking to you, Ray. Talking to you, Mark.


All right. You take care.


OK, bye. There you go, Cheesa, isn't it nice to listen to Salma Hayek? The movie is blessed with Owen Wilson, which is now streaming on Amazon Prime video and everything else she's done. And don't forget, if you're struggling right now, check out Better Help. It's a secure online service providing professional counselors who can listen and help. Just fill out a questionnaire to help assess your specific needs and better help will match you with your own licensed professional therapist.


It's a more affordable option than traditional offline counseling. WTF with Marc Maron is sponsored by Better Help and our listeners get 10 percent off their first month of online therapy when they visit better health outcomes. So I should visit better dot com slash WTF and join the over one million people who have taken charge of their mental health with the help of an experienced, better health professional. OK. Boom, our lives and monkey and the bond. Cat angels everywhere.