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Hello, David. Yes. Now, there are a lot of surprising things you hear about members of Congress doing, but one thing I never expected was for one of them to write a book about Bigfoot, but that's exactly what outgoing Republican Congressman Dave Riggleman has done, writing a book called Bigfoot. It's complicated. And for him, Bigfoot is a little complicated. For one thing, Riggleman is a Bigfoot enthusiast. He's been out on Bigfoot hunts, something that seems to have kicked off when he encountered a possible Bigfoot, when he was just a kid.


And then a few years ago, he got embroiled in a scandal when his running mate, Democrat Leslie Cockburn, accused him of being a fan of Bigfoot erotica that saw him being mocked by everyone from Letterman to Colbert.


And the thing is, he had posted photos on his Instagram of a naked Bigfoot. But in his mind, it was all just a big joke. Anyway, after all that, he's written a book about Bigfoot, and it got my attention because he likens belief in Bigfoot to belief and conspiracy theories. And so, of course, we had to tackle Denver, Riggleman and Bigfoot for this episode of Armchair and Dangerous Pascaline.


Hey, another crazy day in America, are you guys all under control over there?


I've been watching on Twitter is kind of like going mad. No, I want to know if you could describe it to me. What's it like being over there watching in New Zealand? We're sort of dumbfounded watching. It's like you're watching a film because we love like Olympus Has Fallen and all those big silly action films about the world going wrong. And so watching these scenes, it's like an unbelievable movie because the scenes are too weird. It's like you can kind of imagine someone storming Congress.


But the sorts of people that are getting in there, it's a bit off from what you would expect in any kind of logical place. So it's really weird.


It's not Mr. Smith going to Washington. No, it's a really odd thing to watch. Just seems like a big joke that's gone very, very dark today.


The Senate turned over. We're now at fifty fifty two.


George and Democratic candidates won. Yes. And then some, I guess, proud boys were among the many that traveled to DC in anticipation of this. They're storming the Capitol. Yeah.


Yeah, totally normal. Yeah. Well, a normal day. I was going to draw a parallel to win, like there's a heckler in a comedy show and then you actually give them the microphone and then they immediately run out of stuff to say they have so much stuff to say from the audience. But if you actually hand them the mic, they get stage fright like everyone else. They can't fucking entertain people for ten minutes.


So I think a lot of these folks were like, get a fucking get over the wall, got to get in there.


I have to imagine when they were inside and immediately were like, now what do we do? Are we burning this place or are we going to spit on Pelosi's desk?


It was a total lack of knowing what to do. I think someone ran off to the podium. There were some photos taken, but none of them know what to do because they hadn't thought anything through.


No, it was like put one foot in the other. They say sometimes climb up a mountain starts with one step. But also think about the whole trip. Yeah.


And it's been a long time coming. And it's funny because the first episode we did of this, we were talking about lizard people and kind of laughing about a lot and about David and his ideas. And then you read a headline saying, oh, the national bomber, he was a big believer in lizard people. And you're like, oh, OK, well, OK.


And again, let's go through this carefully. I don't want anyone to mistake my amusement as anyone that was hurt in that or threatened by that are scared by that. Our lost a business in that. But I just want to say from my perspective, it happened. And I said, well, this stinks immediately because who are the victims? And I was like, oh, that's weird. He was in front of an AT&T store. So any time something stinks of a conspiracy, I just text you.


I'm like, I don't know, David, something's going to come up. Right. Why did this guy do this in front of AT&T? And you were already on like twenty nine different threads on Twitter.


Yeah, it was mad, but no, you're right, though. The second you see that happening outside an AT&T store that is openly embracing 5G technology, you do you go, oh, there's probably something more to this. And I guess what I didn't expect was sometimes I get surprised at how stereotypical a lot of this stuff is, like the fact he believed in lizard people and that we all have chips in our brain that allow the lizard people to walk by unseen.


You can't write this stuff. It's kind of incredible.


But that does answer one of our questions for you in that episode that you didn't have the answer to, which is like, why can't we see them? And now we know that we have chips in our brains that are scrambling those photons.


Yeah, the buma kindly mailed a few people with descriptions of he'd been chasing aliens in a skate park, and yet he had all his information about lizard people, so. Correct. Yeah, I guess that's why we can't see them, because we've got the chips in the brain.


Of course, probably those same chips hidden in the covid-19 vaccine. No doubt.


Of course. Great point. Well, we tried to introduce a bit of a strata of how sympathetic you are or how evil you think these people are. But the fact that he was warning people to get away from the vehicle that was about to blow up, that was my first clue.


I'm like, well, he's not one of those people who wants to injure many people and create destruction because he's unhappy. This smells like someone who thinks they're doing something heroic, who presumably thinks they have a really noble cause. So that intention to me is relevant. I'm not sad when there's a mass shooter. I'm angry, but I am a little sad when these people are driving trains off tracks are blowing up their motor home in front of a mobile store.


You're right. I mean, that is one small blessing in this, is that, you know, he did warn people away. I mean, he lost his life in this whole thing, which is awful. But, yeah, there are levels of sympathy you feel for people that fall into these conspiracy theory beliefs.


And yeah, it's rough, but it's an all data record, I'm sort of glued to Twitter watching the Q and wander around in there, who's the the shaman, the cute shamans, that guy that he dresses in like a big furry coat and he's got big horns on his head.


Yeah, I saw a picture of that guy. Yes. So he's been around for most of this year. Any kind of cue rally, he'll turn up and people for a while thought that he was maybe taking the mickey out of Kuhnen, but then he was literally at at most matches. And then, you know, I saw him today walking around next to people with Confederate flags. So at some point you go on a you're not being ironic. You're sort of into this stuff.


And here you are on the Senate floor.


And so he's the mascot.


He's like this mascot. He's like this wacky mascot character who's, you know, you look at him and he's very comedic and he looks very funny.


Friendly. Even Esfahani. Yeah.


That's kind of a symbol, I guess, for this whole movement, which it's easy to point and laugh at them and go, this is all a big joke. But then also you're reminded, oh, you know, this has really bad consequences for democracy right now.


Well, one other thing I want to bring up before we get into the fascinating topic of Bigfoot, which minimally, whether you believe in it or not, it's a beautiful notion. But before we do that, do you get 60 Minutes down there in Kiwi time? We do. We love 60 Minutes.


We even had our own New Zealand version of it for a while where we would have your American stories and insert our New Zealand stories in the middle.


Yeah, that's adorable. Well, so don't talk down to.


No, you guys are clearly superior. Yeah. Yeah. There's no you guys have won. OK, the Islamic group that hitting scandal stories.


And then we've got this like tiny story of a con man going on. It was quite funny to watch it actually.


Anyways, at 60 Minutes, you know, you're ahead of the curve because it is in the fucking mainstream. Now, this week there was a segment on a woman who is an Iraqi veteran, American military woman who's also a professional cyclist, and she is on some kind of armed forces cycling team. And it was discovered by many Internet detectives that she competed in a bike race in Wuhan, China, and she was involved in a bicycle accident while she was there.


What's interesting is the theory goes both ways. So one is she took covid to Wuhan in her bicycle. She had lots of cannisters in her bicycle. And then the other one is in her injury. When she went to the hospital, she contracted it and she's the one who brought it around the world. Of course, none of this is true. She did not have cannisters, nor did she ever go to the hospital after this bike accident. But there is a very significant number of people on the Internet that believe she is the face of covid in that she's responsible.


So death threats, they've had to move. Her life's been ruined. And then they bring in the father of the young boy who was killed at the Sandy Hook. And he says, you know, they've had to move seven times this guy, in addition to experiencing the single worst thing that a human can experience.


I've spoken to him before because I was sort of fascinated by his story and he's had to just take his face off everything.


The notion that you can have something awful happen in your life and then have to go through it all again by being accused of something that's completely out of your control.


Yeah, it's awful. And that's when, again, it's like, oh, it's not ridiculous and funny. People's lives are getting ruined over these erroneous beliefs. But he started a foundation, luckily, that actually has had some real traction in getting Google to remove stuff, YouTube to remove stuff. So he's turned it into quite a positive movement, which was inspiring. But anyways, the fact that I was on 60 Minutes and that these people believe this Cycliste infected the world with Korona is so preposterous.


And here he is on the nightly mainstream news and people are so quick to jump on board those different theories. Those is amazing sort of schematic diagram going around the Internet a couple of days ago of what the supposed ship was that was being inserted into the covid vaccine the Bill Gates would use to control us. OK, I'd forgotten to take the tags off the bottom of the actual schematic.


And so it had things like bass and treble because it was like a pedo for a guitar, like an amp or something.


And and yet still this thing travelled around and you had people going, oh, yeah, this is the chip that they're going to insert into your body. So it's amazing how quick we are to jump onto the most ludicrous things. And I guess, I mean, life can be pretty ludicrous, but I'd like to think we've still got some level of being able to look at something objectively and go, maybe this isn't true.


The thing I recently read is there's a big movement against Biden in their belief that ultimately Biden's. Plan is to put all of us in work camps and basically imprison the whole country, and my issue with that is like, for what?


Thank you. You have to forget everything you would know about the economy in the marketplace and everything.


How could that serve Biden? Exactly. The economy is going to collapse. No one is going to make any money. No one's going to create any money. No one is going to create wealth. They're not going to create product. What is the end goal here?


I like to think that we'll get to a point of insanity where we do hit a wall and come back from it.


I mean, do you think things are getting more ludicrous? I feel like they are eventually set like a critical point on the graph. We kind of reverse and pull back our ability to dive with arms wide open into all this crazy.


The notion that this election was fraudulent when all the states in which this fraudulent behavior happened were Republican controlled or majority. So the left couldn't control the election the first time around with Trump when they actually were in power. But somehow being completely out of power, they had all this control. The fact that there's millions of people that believe that shows a new level of belief and absurdity.


Yeah, which is why it's kind of refreshing, the idea of talking about Bigfoot today, because it's the same sort of belief systems, but kind of fun to talk about.


And it's awful outside. So I know you're really keen to talk about Bigfoot monarchial. I'm curious if you have a particular affinity or you would just like please stop talking about depressing stuff constantly. Well, no, it was twofold.


One, it's just such a known classic conspiracy theory that I know very little about. So I'm excited to learn. But also. Yeah, like maybe we need a little reprieve from current day madness because unfortunately, it's just not relenting. Every day there's something else crazy.


Also, I'm going to add she doesn't want to admit this and there's an inside joke, but we'll explain to you. She also has big foot asparagus, the dolphin asparagus.


Why is that big fat asparagus? We had a code word. If people want to admit they were sexually attracted to dolphins, they could put hashtag dolphin asparagus in the comments and many people did. So I'm saying you have Bigfoot if you're horny.


I am in love with Bigfoot asparagus.


I really love this because I did interview a guy once who was in love with the dolphin in Florida and he had a six month sexual relationship with the dolphin in the 70s.


And his name's Malcolm. We're still Facebook friends and he'll occasionally talk to me.


But he wrote a book on Amazon called Wet Goddess, and he self published it.


Truly awful title, but he kind of fictionalized it so he wouldn't get into any kind of legal trouble if there were, I guess if they were like anti bestiality laws that came in or something.


Oh, did he openly talks about it? And the really sad thing about this is he was a university student and his friend owned an aquarium. And so he just go and I guess clean the tank and hang out with the dolphins. It was the 70s. Things were a little bit looser.


I suppose animal rights and this whole thing is that the dolphin initiated the whole thing and came on to him. That's his go to questionable.


But I don't know whether to believe this or not.


But I do know dolphins obviously can bond with humans and he thinks they form such a connection that when he left to go to university, the dolphin Ruby actually killed or committed suicide. Yeah, how their breath and sank to the bottom of the tank.


I hate to say this. I believe I believe dolphins can fall in love with humans and vice versa. Now, that is not to say I condone it or think it should be practically. But but I do believe they can fall in love. I really do really well. They're definitely sexually attracted to humans. We have a boatload of fucking video of male dolphins trying to hump human women with their penises out in there. Yeah, so that's well documented.


Yeah. This this incredible interview that Jessica Alba did back when she was starring in Flipper and she was just talking about how problematic it was filming with dolphins, because they do basically always try and have sex with you.


It's a real problem. Once we started this conversation, I had to do some research on it. Yeah.


And I found a video of a female scientist saying, you really just have to jerk them off real quick and get it over with and then you can study them because they can't do anything else, those males, until you see what the human has to the scientist.


Oh, my God.


There was that other study that NASA was involved with where they were studying dolphins. And eventually one of the doctors and the understudy moved into a house on the coast and they flooded the house so the dolphin could actually live in the house with the people.


And then they did the next logical thing and started giving the dolphins acid just. Oh, that's not where I thought this was going, because they thought that would sort of increase the psyche, this thing, if they could communicate with dolphins. And again, this was funded by NASA, which is pretty incredible. But inevitably, the dolphins got horny and the doctor ended up having to eject them off a couple of times a day.


Oh, my goodness.


Also, I hate to admit this right now, but I'm gonna when I took my Pottermore Patronus test, mine is a dolphin. What's a Pottermore Patronus?


That's Hogwarts. You know, like we took our. Oh, yeah. Hoagies. We took the quiz for what? Houseware. And there's also a Patronus, which is like kind of your spirit animal.


Oh my God. I am not surprised at all.


Your gonna you got kind of dressed in grey today like you do have this on right now.


Yeah. My hair. Yeah.


Sometimes you just hear in the car going, OK, you know what Monica, I think you want some asparagus.


So that's the Dolphins, I mean, you can fact check all this and it all checks out, it sounds like madness. Can I give you the Reader's Digest version of what our conclusion was? Please see my conclusion. It's patently amoral any time a male member of any species has sex with a female member of another species, but there's nothing immoral about any male member of the species having sex with another. And let me be more clear. Any man who has sex with a female dolphin is fucked up and that female dolphin is a victim.


But any time a male dolphin has sex with a human female, there's no victims.


No. Yes. That the female woman. Well, you were arguing that she has such a. Yeah, exactly. Well, no, no, this is assuming the woman wanted to have sex with the dolphin. I'm with you because I'm sick of the system in place.


Exactly. There's a global patriarch. Jesus, criminy in the animal kingdom is generally patriotic.


So you mean patriarchal, patriarchal and very patriotic?


Well, it kind of makes that the most patriarchal are also pretty patriotic.


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OK, big, big, big foot, this might have to be a two part episode.


It was actually I think the reason we sort of decided to do this episode is because it does where they go back to politics.


But an outgoing congressman, Demba Riggleman, who has written a book about Bigfoot, which was sort of a headline that seemed kind of outrageous, and he beat the Democrat to take that position in twenty eighteen. But he got beaten last year by a Republican. But in that whole year he had in politics, he got really obsessed with conspiracy theory, belief. And Dana Riggleman basically saw a lot of crossover between belief and a magical big hairy creature and the sorts of people that got into conspiracy theories.


And he had a personal belief in Bigfoot. So that book sort of being put out by an outgoing congressman did seem kind of amazing. And so worth looking at Bigfoot for a little bit. And what we can learn from him.


Yeah, it's interesting. I think we all have a soft spot for Bigfoot. Do you think him publishing this book, though, had any impact on his loss? The thing that's interesting about Dana and I spoke to him about this, and we can play some of the clips.


He's had a lot of Bigfoot controversy over his political career. And when he was running originally, he'd posted some photos of Bigfoot on his Instagram page showing its penis. And so a lot of people were critiquing him for being into Bigfoot erotica. And his whole thing was it's a joke.


And everyone else is like, you probably shouldn't be posting that. But I think he also officiated a same sex wedding of some of his employees. And because he's a Republican, that became a big thing.


Now he's back to dead neutral. For me, the fact that he believes in Bigfoot, I was like a strike against them. But the fact that he officiated a gay marriage while a Republican, he's neutral. I feel the same way about him. And I talk to him. I want to play the bit. We actually talked about why he got into Bigfoot in the first place, because he saw a Bigfoot when he was a kid. And I've never seen Bigfoot.


I don't know if you guys have seen Bigfoot.


I have not. Can you tell us just what he is? He's just a bit. Is he a Bigfoot? Well, he's a humongous hairy ape like hominid with large feet. And people claim to have seen its tracks.


And that's where the foot aspect of it. Right. What does he do? He just hides from humans. Right.


I mean, Bigfoot, he's mainly in the American Northwest. And there are arguments to what he is, whether he's a humanoid creature or descendent, whether he's some sort of alien that's being dropped off here, whether he's some sort of astral projection. So there's a lot of talk about what he actually is. But in general, I guess he would fall under cryptozoology, which is the pseudoscience of crypto, meaning hidden in zoology, animals or hidden animals, which was a term coined by this guy, Bernard Schulman's, who's like the godfather of cryptozoology and the cryptozoology.


You've got the Loch Ness Monster and Bigfoot and the Chupacabra.


But I guess there's always been lore around the world about big giant animals that talked about in the Bible, that talked about and a lot of cultures. And then the term Bigfoot came around in the late eighteen hundreds because Senator referring to like some big grizzly bear footprints is like Bigfoot and then eventually landed on this creature that people started talking about. And you know, we've got our own version in New Zealand, the hairy Mohawk man, there's the yaoi in Australia, Sasquatch in the Himalayas, and then you guys get Bigfoot.


I was in Mongolia a very long time ago and learned about the Russian version, which is the amnesty. So this lore about this all over the place, I guess, because since probably the Pettersen German film showing that really famous shot of what appears to be a Bigfoot walking along, you know, it sort of turns and looks at you.


The steps over a fallen log.


Yeah, I know it well, that kind of kick things into overdrive. And, you know, despite people coming out and saying, I'm the one that sold them that suit and despite someone coming out and saying I was the one in the suit, it's been really disproven. And it is a really convincing image that no one's been able to recreate to sort of disprove. So that's the thing that kind of took it into overdrive. All right.


I'm not going to interrupt your flow. I want to go to the interview. But I do want us to all earmark the fact that I actually misspoke and there was a moment in time I was positive I was looking at Bigfoot and I'll save that story to the end. I had totally forgot about it. And so you were just talking and I realized exciting. Yeah. Yeah. Well, listen to Denver's meeting and then I want to hear about yours.


I was 10 years old with my grandfather. We were going up to this thing called Bull's Head. It's a spring that feeds all of the fields down this mountain. We drink out of it with rocks down the mountain. He would always get these little boulders. And we. Throw them down the sides of these cliffs to see how long they would roll. My grandfather wouldn't let me hunt, so he made me stick in and we were almost back. It was probably 4:00 October.


November, you know, is getting evening. The leaves were very loud. And we come to our gate, to our property boundary. And my grandfather jumped up on a stump and he looks up into the mountain, you say, or something up in there. I think it's a deer. Maybe it's a bear. So we're sitting on the edge. My grandfather looks down at me, you know, my grandfather, he's the grandfather of legend. Deep voice doesn't make much funny, but he just can grasp just an incredible man.


He goes, run. And I like what Grandpa? And he's like, run. He jumps down now the gates only 20 feet from us and he's only 46. He throws me over the gate, he scrambles over the gate and I'm sort of standing there. He just pushes me and he starts to run and I run. Now, the crazy thing about the story that's so true, I'll never forget it.


I heard it this massive cacophony and it's up on my left, probably 70 to 100 yards.


And it feels like it's paralleling this thing was so steep and I'm running and my grandfather's running. And that son of a bitch, he's gone so far in front, I'm like, I'm going to die. I kind of got to run my grandfather. I can see the tear from the fence to my trailer, 250 to 300 yards. So you're talking about 45 to 60 seconds. That felt like ten years. Oh, I'm anxious. I mean, I remember that at ten years old and I remember we get to our green little trailer.


My grandfather doesn't stop. He picks up the lever action 30, 30. He tells me to get the 22. He comes around the cabin and he takes almost a military stance. He's leaning up against the side of the trailer. Here I am with a little rimfire 22 and I'm going to do this. I shoot myself.


It Bigfoot comes down here what I'm going to do, and he's just pointing at thirty three up into the wood line, four minutes and that's stuck with me.


He told me years later he called it the mighty peculiar. He said it was big, it was black, didn't look like a bear and it was moving really fast. What was it. I don't believe in Bigfoot, but there's a difference between possibility and probability. And I think, David, there's a possibility of Bigfoot exists. I just don't think there's a probability that exists.


And I've used that so many times because I can't 100 percent tell you that there's not some big hairy ass thing in the woods.


Wow, that's something that's where his obsession with Bigfoot started. He's always been into Bigfoot and ended up being an intelligence officer in the Air Force and then obviously got into politics. But does that sort of ring any bells to you and your experience, Dex? You know, that visceral experience? Weirdly, it does.


But first, I want to say what a great storyteller. All the details, the property perimeter and the demarcation of this like great storyteller is reverie for his grandfather. So beautiful.


Well, that's what freaked him out, I think the most is his granddad was like a hardass. And he said, like, his granddad wasn't like an old granddad. Suddenly his granddad is in his 40s, is suddenly terrified of this. Here you go.


Oh, my God. The granddad was your age. I just realized because I was just your birthday, I felt like this.


I used to have golf in his spare.


This game that this guy was probably like three years younger than me.


He was forty six. He said, oh, he said yes, that's OK. Oh Jesus, John.


Oh my God. I don't want to do that anymore this year.


I was just saying he's so young your it would be like you freaking out.


Right, right, right, right. OK, so really quick. Here's my story. This is one hundred percent true. I got invited to go to Joshua Tree here in California with a good buddy of mine from the Groundlings. Chuck Chuck had gone to USC. I didn't know any of the people on the camping trip other than Chuck. It was all of his USC buddies. So we're there and we're all sitting on this huge formation of rocks. I'm on mushrooms.


Many people are on mushrooms. Earlier, a few of the dudes had taken off to take a hike. And so we're all hanging on this big outcrop of boulders and someone goes, what is that? And they point out to the desert in a very far away, like a half mile away, there is some furry fucking creature moving through the desert, clearly coming at us. And it's moving. It's occasionally like going down to its knuckles. And I am going this is not possible.


A, there's not huge bear out in Joshua Tree and there's no gorillas. And that's what it looks like is a gorilla. And this is where I go in my head because I am seeing it and people are starting to get scared and I'm starting to get scared. And it's clearly coming at us. And I think, holy shit, I remember an anthropology learning about giganto pithiness. So giganto pithiest was this 600 pound what they thought was a hominid.


But now since I went to college, they now just think it was a gorilla like ancestor to orangutan. But I know of this gigantic Petrakis that is supposed to be seven feet tall and six hundred pounds. And it really did exist. And I thought, oh my God, they're still here. And as it was getting closer and closer, people are really starting to get scared. There is some women among us and this guy is going, stay together, everyone stay together, make yourself big.


Like all these things are coming up. The people have been warned about what you do with bears. Put your hands over your head so some people have their hands over their head. Some people are screaming. It's coming, is getting closer and closer. It's picking up speed. He's yelling, everyone stay together. Everyone stay together. And I bolt. I fucking go to my tent because I have a knife in there and I have a mag flashlight and I'm like, OK, worst case scenario, I need some weapons to fight this thing.


I go in my tent, I zip it up. I'm also on shrooms, so I'm afraid to interact with anything aggressive. And I hear screaming, screaming, screaming. It's getting louder. It's getting louder. It's getting louder. I hear people scatter and I'm in there like, oh my God, it's going to rip through my fucking tent. Oh, my God, I'm terrified.


And then I hear, oh, fuck you, Mike, fuck you.


These assholes who had hiked out in the morning had a backpack with them with a gorilla suit in it. And one of the guys I've left one part out, there's a there was a human running from the gorilla that was also in the group who was not in on the joke. And when he got to the rocks, he's like a fucking gorilla. And he was bleeding. He had tripped and I deserted everybody. You know, we talked earlier about my my hero fantasy that went out the fucking window in this situation on shrooms.


And I hid scared in my tent until I heard the whole thing. And I came out and I was so blown away by this prank that they planned it.


And they look this fucking gorilla outfit out there. I later thought, if that's a different camping trip, not USC writers, someone's got a handgun in that situation. Let me be clear. If I had a handgun in that situation, I would have been firing at that gorilla. I was that scared and that. Convinced there was a fucking Bigfoot or giganto picnic is coming at us. Did they know that you are on shrooms or do they not factored in that part?


I bet that only heightened the appeal, right.


That's a very brilliant man. That's about as scared as I've ever been in real life. I'm terrified of animals.


You say that force majeure moment where the amazing film where there's this family. It's a drama sort of comedy. This family sitting out at this ski resort and they see this avalanche coming down the hill and the father just abandons the kids and his wife.


And the rest of the film is just trying to, like, pace his family back together after they clearly see he's the first one out the door.


So that was your moment? You know, it was it was it was, I'm afraid of animals. Kirsten and I went on safari and I was on wreck when those lions would be close to the fucking car. And she was so comfortable. And I'm like, I don't know how to fight an animal. I know how to fight another human. I don't know what the move is. A lion. They have claws.


People do know that's what they were saying. Get big. And then you just totally disregarded all the things for a while. I'll tell you what I was thinking. I was I was like, all these people are experts in dealing with this situation. I know that this is a very novel situation to me. There's no way they've all been in a situation three times and learned the hard way that we're all guessing here at what you are supposed to do, though.


Oh, yeah, I think you're right. I think you're right. Look, they were all friends. I was up to them. I was the odd man out. I was a stranger and I needed to get my Maglite in case I had to swing something thing.


It is a legitimately dangerous situation to be in. You know, you see those people driving through safari parks in South Africa to open the door and get out.


And, yeah, they're taken out pretty quickly.


So at least that's a reason to be scared. That's not crazy. Being scared by the situation. I think that's sensible.


I'm grateful to have had the experience where I'm looking at something that I know doesn't exist, but yet I'm seeing it. So I have to figure out some explanation. And mine happened to be giganto pithiness. But in absence of giganto Pistorius, I would have said Bigfoot.


Yeah. And maybe this is a good time, actually, to listen to Denver, but more because he has studied Bigfoot a lot and he talked to me a lot about what Bigfoot could be. And he knows this stuff a lot better than I do. But I was fascinated by this because I've often thought of him as a biological sort of creature.


You know, he's some sort of evolutionary throw off or he's something real, you know, or like a some sort of mutant human if he exists bare human hybrid or something, something like that.


Something that I can put my finger on.


But he goes into the details of sort of the different types of Bigfoot belief. And I guess, again, I don't want to keep being the conspiracy guy, but it reminded me a lot about how you can be into Bigfoot. But there's different levels of Bigfoot belief that feels a bit more scientific and a little bit more rational and end up in a space that's very much not that. So, yeah, I like talking to Denver about this. Yeah, let's hear it.


So there's subcategories. So let me go really quick. No one are the bees. They're the biological entity believers. They believe Bigfoot is descended from some kind of missing link. The big issue there, though, on the bees is does it have infrared? Does it have ability to cloak itself because it can see in infrared and also can throw terror vibes at you. But the big thing is the size of its penis. Since the gorilla has a small penis in the simian kingdom, a big foot and a really tiny penis, he's going to be a gorilla.


If he had a big penis, he's probably descended from something like Homo erectus. So that's the beast. Did you have the interstellar Bigfoot? Interstellar Bigfoot is actually dropped here by aliens. It's usually accompanied by probes and lights. It might be here to protect our environment, might be here to give us a warning. It might be here as a lookout for the other little greys, the alien greys. But what's really interesting is the magic man theory from the Native Americans.


As Omar STICKMAN Really what's interesting is that it can take your soul. So if you look into its eyes, you can actually lure you into the woods and your soul. And also Omar STICKMAN can disappear and appear at will.


And which one do you think was chasing you through the woods that day as a child? My guess it was a horny biological ape, the beast. Wow.


So, yeah, take your pick really of what type of Bigfoot to believe in. It's not as simple as you'd first think now.


And this is where we overlap a bit with Eichman. Right. So I got to say, his anthropological stance is grounded in reality. Homo sapiens, sapiens of the great apes of all the primates does have the most disproportionately large penis per body index. Yeah. So he has incorporated some good science. Yeah. It's based in some sort of logic.


And then, yeah, you go through the more extreme version, which is is very rare. Innocent of David Icke and his reptilian shapeshifters and hidden moon base and that kind of thing, you get into the extraterrestrial bigfoot, which to me seems a little bit more illogical.


What are you partial to?


Well, first of all, I'm angry that the interstellar Bigfoot is not just called Chewbacca because that's what the fuck it is. If it's from space and it's a Chewbacca was a Bigfoot in space. Chewbacca. Alstyle, yes. From Star Wars. Totally. And yeah, I guess you're right. Like he is an interstellar Bigfoot. You're completely right. Yeah. And I don't believe any species with the technological capability to travel many, many light years to get to this planet is going to be fine with returning to living in the woods and wiping its ass with leaves and stuff like I can't even go back to the 50s at this point without a microwave, I would kill myself, not a cell phone.


How do I get a hold? Anyone? So the interstellar ones, the least plausible to me, because one can ask of that alien to live in the damp forest. Well, maybe he got stuck here and now he's pissed. Oh, but he's here to help us with our environment.


Oh yeah. I don't think he's benevolent.


Well, in that version, the interstellar versions. But I know. So I don't believe that. OK, that's why you're writing that one. That's why you put a line in the sand.


You're like, yeah, I kind of want to believe in the Native American version. That's also ding, ding, ding. Harry Potter a dementor. Oh, and that's exactly what Dementor is. Do they suck your soul out?


Oh, and Hoggy World and Hoggins. I got to just push back a little bit on you here. The only consistent thing is that it is always benevolent. Well, chupacabra I think does injure people, but here Bigfoot has the physical capacity to destroy any man he comes into contact with. And there's no murders of men from Bigfoot.


No, he generally wanders away peacefully. Right. He's not attacking. Yeah. Although he was chasing Denvir Riggleman, for that matter.


Well, that is true. That's in conflict. But I bet in the end, if he had caught him, he would have just hugged him and snuggled. All he wanted was a hug.


And I mean, she reminds me of the other big debate in cryptozoology about Bigfoot, and that is how many Bigfoot or big feet are out there, you know, because you sort of think of it as one. But then there are possibly some people think hundreds of these things. And for the record, I should say, I'm very skeptical about Bigfoot and I don't believe in his existence. I mean, you just see the number of humans on the planet and where we get to, I think we're pretty hard to hide from.


And I think we would have had a body by now. So just to state that clearly not to believe in myself, absolutely.


We would have a carcass. It'd be in the archaeological record. Everyone's got a cell phone camera and we're fucking everywhere. Yeah, top of Everest. There's trash everywhere, you know. Exactly. Exactly.


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Is he as big as a dinosaur? No. It depends what dinosaur you're talking about.


Velociraptor, maybe he's like seven feet tall. Yeah, he's like he's like seven foot. He's like an NBA player. That kind of he's like a Steven Adams.


It could have been anyone in the woods that's just really tall and maybe was running in the air with their own version of what you had, that you were sort of picturing sort of T-Rex size, that kind of like I thought he was enormous.


Oh, my. That's why it's so scary. I just don't understand why this is a thing like why Big Foot?


Why these Krypto cryptozoologist. Yeah. Why has that taken off? If one, they don't hurt anyone. So like what's there to even talk about? Two, they're not dinosaur size, they're just just size.


What's so interesting about them, I'm so charmed by your absence of knowledge of Bigfoot because did you not see Harry and the Hendersons. Oh.


Oh they got a guy and put them in a suit. But I'm not forty six. Oh my God, no.


I grew up with Harry and the Hendersons as well and it's very charming Bigfoot that hung out with the family and they try and hide him all the time, you know, because I wanted to keep him safe from scientists who are always trying to get them right.


Yeah. Yeah. Because he's a good guy. He's a good guy. It was it like a Jewish parallel and Frank in the attic, it's an Anne Frank story.


Oh, why. Oh, so you mean you mean specifically the Harry and the Hendersons Fables is similar to Anne Frank. I follow you. Yeah, it is similar.


I'm not sure if that the developers of the show and the writers had in mind. I think again, coming back to Conspiracy's, I think cryptozoology, you know, there's a lot of crossover between aliens and cryptozoology. And I think it's that wanting to believe in something more exciting and bigger than our day to day kind of boring lives. I mean, you just look at how many seasons of finding Bigfoot they've done. They never find them. But it's still really compelling because it's like the mythology of it all and the appeal of it, this idea that you've got some secret knowledge.


So these people get really obsessed with finding a Bigfoot hare and that they can DNA test or a Bigfoot track. It's the same kind of drive, I think, that drives people into belief in other ideas that are incredibly unprovable. And the fact that they aren't provable just fuels them. It just gets bigger and bigger instead of making it more diminished, which is to me pretty incredible. Yeah, counterintuitive.


I just want to bring them back to what you just said about the show. The producers must live in abject terror, about actually finding it absolutely like they are so incentivized to fight because then the show's over. Well, we got it. Yeah. And found him. Now, I bet I could build a conspiracy theory on that. They actually found it, but then they hid it to keep the show going.


That is a really solid conspiracy theory. I really like that a lot.


It is. And you know, the more I think about conspiracy theories in general, Raynham recognizing is you really just have to find motive. If you can lay out a believable motive, I think that allows people to buy in pretty quickly. Yeah, I think that's like the key. That's why some of them are a little more confusing to me, though, like the mole children. I don't know who who's benefiting, but the cryptozoologist is a romantic desire.


They want to live in a world that's enchanted. Yeah, it's positive. They want there to be magic on planet Earth. It's so to me diametrically opposed to these other ones where it's like there's evil people killing children. This is like a deep desire to live in a world that's even more beautiful and enchanting.


Yeah, no one's storming into Congress demanding the Bigfoot types or anything like that.


You know, I was going to ask, have there been, like, negative a shooting? Like, I could see it like you almost shot your friend. I was like, I got to be dead right now.


I could see that someone shooting like a person because they thought it was Bigfoot or something. Has that. I know more of a show that being called pranks gone bad.


Yeah, totally. I feel like the must have been Monica. I don't know any examples of that. But surely there must have been if you've got hunters mistaking people for deer and that kind of thing, surely that's happened.


Yeah. Yeah. Now do we have any sense of how many people are there in communities of Bigfoot, people who go on trips and pilgrimages to help find a Bigfoot?


I feel like conspiracy theory, I believe kind of stay static. There are areas in America I know where it's really big. I think Pennsylvania is really big for Bigfoot sightings. And just the culture there is really big I mean, you would probably know this better than I do, but in America, it's in your blood, isn't it, Bigfoot?


It's like this idea of like taking your kids out on, like, a mission to find Bigfoot. And even if you don't believe in it, it's an exciting thing to tell your kid you're going to do. So you go off into the woods. So I feel that's like kind of embedded in American DNA in a way. So that's it. That's why the first generation, my parents are American, so they could care less. Yeah, you missed out on that mad American thing of like this mystical beast we're going to go and find today in the woods.


I'm going to suggest a free state model to Pennsylvania. Take it or leave it. I won't charge for it. But bumper sticker, Pennsylvania, big on big foot. OK, I like that. That feels very welcoming.


I like that a lot. One thing I did find out that I think it is a lot more innocent belief in cryptozoology. But one ideological thing I've found is that a lot of people into cryptozoology, like the ones online that have like the museums or spend their whole life writing books about a lot of them tend to be young Earth creationists, because from what I can tell, if they find the Loch Ness monster alive, that helps them prove that the earth is really young because, of course, that's why this dinosaur hasn't died out, because once upon a time, dinosaur and man lived at the same time together and it was only, you know, ten thousand years ago.


So, yeah, that is an underpinning that I think does drive cryptozoology alive, which also and I don't want to read too much into this, but a lot of hardcore conspiracy theorists tend to be a certain breed of Christianity. I think most of the Cuban people also they'll have God is great and their Twitter bio and that kind of thing. So that's the only little crossover. And I don't know if there's anything in that or not, but I love cryptozoology a lot.


And I often find that people I speak to about it are also young Earth creationists. So there's something driving them in that.


Now, Denver's belief in Bigfoot did create some problems in his political life. And I know we've talked about Bigfoot, penis size and that kind of thing, but I talked to him a little bit about his little political scandal. I found that pretty interesting to listen to. Yeah. Let's let's hear what he's got to say about that.


My buddy sent me a picture or birthday picture, had signed by everybody in my head on a Bigfoot body with a censored out penis. Massive sensorial penis, by the way. Not a small one. Really big. I said this is the funniest shit I've seen in a long time. I got to put this on Instagram. I had like 12 followers. Middle schoolers had more followers than me on Instagram. So I put it on there. And then my daughter's boyfriend had a picture of Bigfoot coming out of the sky like a deity with, again, the big, sceptered phallic.


So I kept it up there and all of a sudden I got a call about eleven o'clock at night for my consultant. I had only been running in total and federal office for two months. And he goes to Denver. We got a problem. So what's wrong, man? Because you're going to go viral. I said, for what? I didn't do anything. I'm clean as a whistle as well. You know, those Bigfoot pictures, she tweeted them out and called you a Nazi at the same time, like, so there's Bigfoot pictures with penises out there.


And he goes, Yeah. And she's calling me a Nazi. Yeah. I said, what what is going on? It went viral so fast, it's seven in the morning. I did 40 interviews in two days. Forty they accuse me of Bigfoot erotica that I wrote a Bigfoot erotica book. I was hit so hard, I told my wife, I said, I think I should quit. I've never done anything to anybody. I fought against ethnic cleansing in Kosovo.


Everybody took something on Twitter as true with no facts. And listen, if people want to make love to big furries or people dressed in Bigfoot costumes, I don't give a shit what I care about as when people weaponized it. In the first time I had weaponized badness was because of a lie about me on Twitter. What a learning experience for an intelligence officer. And you know what I used it for? To study it. And it really helped with my book.


Wow. Wow.


His his running mate at the time, Leslie Cockburn, put that out about him, those photos of nude Bigfoot. And I think he had been hanging out or he'd been associated with someone that was related to the right. So we got dragged into that as well.


He was mocked on all the big talk shows, like it was all about Denver, a woman who was running for Congress, who was a lover of Bigfoot erotica.


So it's just such a strange political scandal to have your turn run.


I have no conclusion to draw from this interview about whether he's well founded in his believe or not. But I know certainly I would totally love to hang out with Denver. Yeah. He's also I think he's got his own brewery as well. Oh, he's got a brewery. He's like a man's man.


He's like he's making beer. He's hanging out with his granddad.


He's he's around shooting drugs.


And, you know, he's very young way. I want to just go back real quick. You know, you're making the connection between religion and conspiracy theories. It seems like those people are practiced in justifying maybe beliefs that are unjustifiable or don't have empirical evidence.


Yeah, but even like they want to believe it. So parts of it, they have to justify somehow. So they're good at that. They're good at like looking over the parts that make no sense in order for the greater belief. Yeah.


They're taught to do that. Now, I am the annoyingly outspoken atheist. I do not wish to defend religion or religious people. But I will say this. Any overlap with religious people is almost useless in that. Sixty eight percent of the population is religious, so it's not a great leader outer of anything. You're basically just saying like this percentage of Americans believe this.


In my opinion, no, because it's like what we were talking about the other day with people who put liberal or Republican on their Twitter bio. David is saying these people are not they're not just religious. They're like promoting that. They are. That's a big part of their. Well, that's true. That's a good point.


Yeah. The smaller, I guess, minority of Christians who believe that the Earth is ten thousand years old and take the Bible really literally. And those are people that have to do a few more mental gymnastics, I think, to get around things like the fossil record and that kind of thing, because they have to prove that man and dinosaur walked on Earth at the same time. So they're really used to moving the facts around a little bit to fit what they want to believe.


You guys are absolutely right. I can see that. But I'm just saying, if your observation was albino's are really drawn to Bigfoot, that to me is like, wow, what's going on with Albino's? That they love Bigfoot because it's just such a small group of people. But if you say people who love Bigfoot love McDonald's, I'm like, OK, who was that? Seventy five percent of the country. It doesn't make me more curious. I guess that's the point I'm making.


Yeah, I hear your point. And I guess also there are a lot of religious people that definitely don't believe in Bigfoot as well.


I have to imagine the majority. Yeah, probably. Probably. And then I think with Bigfoot as well. I mean, obviously there are people, I guess like us that are fascinated by him or her or it, because it's just a fascinating, interesting story. But then there are a smaller group of the population that absolutely believe that Bigfoot is a real thing and desperately want to find it at some people's life mission to find Bigfoot.


Yeah, I'll also argue that nearly one hundred percent of Americans have been indoctrinated with cryptozoology in there. Is this Easter Bunny that is a story that we try to tell kids is a real thing. There's an Easter bunny, but you grow out of that. You grow out of it. But I'm just saying you're just like religion is like training you to ignore this stuff.


It is fascinating how, like, we do train children to believe in something that is non existent, whether center or the Easter Bunny. It's a funny thing we do to our kids.


It's like you don't know everything.


You're a little bit stupider than I am just because you haven't had time to learn things and make some stuff up and then yank that out at some point.


Yeah, I've decided this huge caper in lie is justified by the elation you'll experience believing in. Which is a very dicey, controlling, powerful and have kids, so maybe it changes when you have kids and that's just what you logically do.


But I just can't imagine if I ever had children of doing that to them.


It's just seems so strange to me on our side of the street that time came. I'm like, I think this is the foundation by which you then get them to believe in God and feel shame and sin. He's watchin. You won't get your presence. So I was very critical of it. And then another part of me said, eh, get over yourself, it's fucking Christmas. You were told that and you're fine. I ended up landing on that side, so I set it and it worked for about four weeks.


And then the first hard question came, how does he fit in this chimney? Right. And so I lied about that. And then there was another question a few days later and then a third. And it was when I got to the fifth time, I was now. Now I've got five lies built on this first one that I just said, this is untenable. I can't continue to lie to her and squash this flame. That's the best part of her, which is critical thinking.


I can't participate in it. Yeah, you're right. You're done. You're right.


You know, you can't keep telling a lie for too long. You know, that's the thing. Yeah. And then I'm going to, like, try later in life to explain to her the value of critical thinking. And yet I participated in this thing for two years where the questions just kept coming and I just kept lying. I just ran out of gas. I mean, that's a big part of parenting just to, like, scare your kids up as much as possible.


I agree with you guys. If I have a kid, I probably want them to believe in it. I have a memory of believing in it and being so excited. And I'm not mad. I don't feel tricked. Right. Yeah. You got to believe in magic for a while. I felt really feels like they gave me a gift and that in some ways, because there's nothing much when you grow up, you're like everything. Yeah. Storm in the capital things are bad, but yeah.


From Magic alive for as long as you can not only hear you line, let's put that aside. You're actually taking away the true value of the holiday. The true value of the holiday is that we as a family take time out of everything else to come together and to be together every day and to celebrate one another and buy each other presents and be giving and generous. So the weird notion to me is like that you're protecting the fucking thing that was invented two hundred years ago.


The story when there is something of enormous value happening that is way more important. Can I poke a hole, please?


What what they would say is that's not the true value. The true value is. Jesus, you've decided the value of Christmas is about family and taking time. And what it would say is that's your take away. But that's not the real take away of Christmas.


The real take away of Christmas is celebrating his birth and David's birth. Yeah, yeah.


And you're right. I'm always worried that one is wait a little bit more importantly than the other. To be honest.


I know it doesn't feel quite fair, but but just in my own analysis of why I was so afraid for them not to have this thing, and then I just recognize, well, that's not even the beautiful thing about the holiday. There is a beautiful thing about it. And it's getting, you know, overshadowed by the guy from the North Pole. Totally.


It is a weird thing where Jesus and Santa both vying for sort of popularity on that given day and often coexisting together. I'm surprised that more Christians haven't pushed back against Santa because he really is a very different kind of a beast. I guess he's right all about giving and being kind. I suppose that's kind of lines up.


But he is stealing thunder a little bit loss, I'd argue. Yeah. I mean, a lot of kids are talking about Santa right on Christmas when they should be talking about the birth of Jesus.


Yeah. The last thing that Denvir said and he talked for a long time because he is very passionate about this stuff. He was an intelligence officer in the Air Force and he's a smart guy. And the last thing he talked about was about how he saw Bigfoot belief and conspiracy theory, belief lining up and I guess why we should be cautious on that. I was excited to talk to him about this because it's what I find interesting about this space, because, you know, when I was a kid, I'd look at Bigfoot belief and sort of think it was totally innocent.


But when you look at what they're saying about the way humans can think and the way we sometimes uncritical of evidence, it becomes a little bit more alarming in a way.


So, yeah, this is Denver on conspiracy theory, belief versus Bigfoot belief.


I think there's these belief systems that encompass people and control them. It's something that's always scared the hell out of me. It's always been my fear that I would go down that rabbit hole. And I think it shaped my life multiple times in the military. I do think it's people who do think they're superior. It's almost like a perverse narcissism where they believe that their belief in a Bigfoot deity gives them some kind of superiority over you at every point. And I think there's a strain of arrogance or narcissism in some of these individuals that comes out with some of these belief systems.


Am I a trained psychiatrist? No, but I've been around I don't want to offend anyone, but it doesn't. There come a time when you say, listen, NSA did not create Hammerin Scorecard to infiltrate our voting machines. That's fucking weird. It's stupid. I worked in NSA. It's wrong. You probably never had a congressman cost us much. So I apologize. I'm going military on you. You know, I also don't want to tell them they're stupid.


I want to try to train them just like there's a vaccination for covid. We got to be able to digitally vaccinate these people. We got to have a digital vaccine. We got to be able to immunize them against this disinformation.


So, yeah, his big thing now that he didn't get back in for another term is that he's he is really going to battle disinformation. That's his new passion. We should have him back on down the line because I'm very curious how is he is going to roll out? Because I think he's going to be incredibly busy. Yeah.


And he's so right, that arrogance, because the thing that came up nonstop on Rabbit Hole is the cure all for criticism is like, oh, that's cute. You don't know the truth. Yeah. And this arrogance that they somehow know the truth from their message board. And we're all in the dark and we're dumb. I've some elevated.


Yeah, yeah. They're superior.


And because we just watched how to add Jon Wilson and the one with the Mandela effect, I was just so stricken the whole time, I could not believe that these humans were so reluctant to just admit they were wrong or couldn't or confused or confused or like misremembered.


Yeah, they were wrong.


And it's OK. It's OK to be wrong. But instead they had to create a multi universe theory like that's more likely than you a person just being wrong. It's so arrogant. Yeah.


It goes back to that whole Ockham's Razor thing where the most likely answer is the simplest one is we've really rallied against that.


Against that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.


But yeah, that sure. I love that show. Did you watch that episode David. I know I haven't watched it yet, but I'm a big fan of his. And when I heard that Nathan Fielder was going to be producing and keeping some shows and I saw that come up, I was like, this is probably going to be good. Yeah, it's great.


I'll be excited to talk to you after you watch that episode, because I was Bullseye three of them. I'm like, oh yeah, no, definitely used to be called Stofer Stovetop Stuffing. I know it just like they knew it. And also that the sunshine on the Raisin Bran box, that thing had sunglasses on like. Yeah, for sure. This stuff is incredible.


And it just reminds you that the human brain isn't this perfect recording device. Like it's very open to being messed with and really bunkie's ways.


Yeah, it just does get confusing when so many other people had the same error. Yeah. It gets intriguing. How did we all get the same mistake. You don't even like that part of it.


No, I don't.


I'm just like, yes, sorry guys, but I like if one in three people believe there was a product called Stover's Stovetop Stuffing. Don't you need an explanation for that?


The explanation is your brain associated because those words sound similar. Your brains are all doing the same thing and everyone wants to be unique. So they don't want to believe like, no, no.


So I would love it if that's the explanation. If there was, like some linguistics expert said, oh, it's because this, this and this. But it certainly demands an explanation like why would one in three people think that the thing had sunglasses on? That's intriguing.


Again, because it is a sauna in your brain is associating sun and sunglasses. See, I think it's because of the raisins dancing in the commercial and the little raisins had sunglasses on.


I think that's where the kernel of confusion started. I just really like that.


At this point in our evolution, we're having these kind of arguments about these kind of things, you know, at this point of super important stuff.


It's not. I love it, though. It is. It is important stuff to figure this out, you know.


Yeah, well, again, none of it's really about that. It's way more about your childhood, how the world is changing. It's scary. It used to be this way. Now it's this way. No, I know it was that way. It never even was that way. You know, these are deep existential is the world I grew up and going to exist when I'm gone. Questions. Yeah.


And it's also the stuff is really exciting because I think it's what the Kuhnen people think and it's what Bigfoot believers think and people and aliens. It's this idea that once we find this thing, that life will get better somehow. And if we find aliens, it's like the whole scope of everything just gets more epic and interesting. And that's what we're all searching for, because we're all creeping around, stressed out by all of life's problems. And it's escapism.


That's what we're all after. Yeah, and maybe that's fine.


Sometimes that's what this show is.


That's what this show is. It's escapism.


You're right. Well, David, we fucking love you. I'm happy. Belated birthday. Happy belated birthday. You so much for remembering. It's like being a constant battle my entire life, getting people to remember and to have like two wonderful Americans. Validate me like this, I mean, I'm going to be like boyin for the whole year of this. Oh my gosh. As you should be. And then you're coming here shortly. Yeah. Yeah.


I'm set to come over in April. So I don't know, with restrictions and that kind of thing, if I'm allowed up in your attic that I always see on the zoom screen. But I would love to be in the attic.


You're going to be in our attic? Yeah, we're going to be doing the shit together for sure. I'm so into this. I can't wait to visit. I want to be in amongst the madness on the ground. So I can't wait. Cannot wait.


I have David Asparagus. Monica, David Asparagus.


I love you, but I better go see you guys. Bye, Monica.