Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert experts on expert Pete Sampras, and I'm joined by John McEnroe.

I wish I knew more about tennis, but we really I should have called you Billie Jean King, probably.

Oh, that would've been nice. Yeah, because you're female and so is she. Yeah. And she's the best and she was the best. I know she is the best. Serena right there trying to get Serena. Oh, I would love to get now that.

Well that's not today though. It's not today. No. You know, once in a blue moon will hop into some topical conversation and it's really fun. And that's what we did on this. Now, we both consumed the Eppstein podcast series, which was fantastic. And we also watched the Netflix documentary. Yes, it's an endlessly fascinating story. It's horrendous on all levels. It exposes the levels of corruption that really are currently happening that we pretend to aren't.

Yeah. Oh, it is nasty in so many ways. The size of it is overwhelming.

Now, Bradley Edwards is a nationally recognized board certified civil trial attorney who specializes in providing civil representation for children, victims of sexual abuse and victims of violent crime. He most notably was the attorney of more than 20 alleged victims of Jeffrey Epstein and continues to fight for them. To this day, we really got a bang out of talking to Bradley. We had seen him in the documentary, but we found him in person to be just so darn likable and fun to hang with.

Right.

And he just kind of walked us through the story. And it's it's a lot to take in, but it's important to take in. Yes.

In the weight of the things he knows that he still can't publicly say must be, oh, my God. So daunting. Yeah.

Well, this is a tasty interview, so please enjoy Bradley Edwards. We are supported by Squarespace. Now, there's so many reasons. One would need a website. We have a website, armchair expert, Pod Dotcom. It's a beautiful, user friendly website and we made it at Squarespace. Now, maybe you want to turn a cool idea into a website or showcase your work blog or publish content, sell products and services of all kinds, promote a physical or online business.

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He's in chance. Where are you at? I'm in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. What kind of heat are we looking at down there? Oh, we're in the 90s now, but nobody goes outside anymore, right? The only time we see anybody is on Zoome through a computer screen. So it doesn't really matter what the weather is. Yeah.

How is that affected legal proceedings, the different cases that you're currently pursuing?

Basically screeching halt. Yeah, it's bad. I mean, unfortunately, all of our hearings are by Zoome, somewhat chaotic, although I think everybody is getting used to it a little bit. Deposition's by Zoome. There's no jury trials. You know, as a trial attorney you can't get anything done. There's no trials, no trials. In fact we're being told that when they come back that all of the judges are going to have to concentrate on the criminal trials, speedy trial and things like that.

So civil trials are put on hold, probably realistically for another year.

Oh, my goodness. Wow. You represent many of the victims of Jeffrey Epstein. How many victims right now?

Fifty six. Oh, my goodness. God. Wow. Fifty six. And so, you know, what I want to do is I want to walk through what happened for anyone that's not listen to the great podcast that was about this or watch the great Netflix documentary.

Was it Netflix? Yeah. The great Netflix documentary about it. Let's let's together walk folks through who Jeffrey Epstein was and how he came to be this prolific monster. Yeah, monster.

All right, good. So, Jeffrey Epstein, it's best to kind of work backwards. We all learned that he was this kind of uber wealthy control freak who had this penchant for engaging in sex with very young women and girls as young as 14 years old. But he kind of worked into that. You know, that was what ultimately was revealed. But if you rewind time, you know, you go back to the 70s. He's this teacher at the Dalton school and nobody really knows how he got the job.

And then he gets plucked out of there to Bear Stearns and nobody really knows how he got that job. And, you know, it's like he conned his way into everything. He was very smart and very charismatic. And, you know, I met him several times.

But what can I just say? I have to admit, we were watching the documentary in both Monica and I were like, you know, it would be a lie to not say the guy was handsome. Like, there was many moments where you're watching him. You're like, oh, he's a good looking older guy.

Well, that's how serial killers happen. It's the same thing. There's charisma and a bizarre, almost empathy where they know how to master manipulate. And I think it throws you off the trail a little bit because we have such generic binary ideas of who can have access to sex and who can't.

So when it's like a very handsome person who's charismatic and rich, you you a little bit go like, well, there's no way he had to do anything scandalous to have sex. It's helpful to that person, I think, to to get her to have a lot of options.

Yeah, of course, he would even say that to me. Really. Look, I'm offering these girls the best life they've ever seen. Come on. Let's talk about this client or that client. They came from the trailer park. They came to my mansion. I paid a money. You know, who wouldn't want to kind of jet set and live this life? And now, you know, they're coming back and saying they didn't like it and OK, they're 14, 15, 16 years old.

But who's to really say what controls who I can be with and who I can't? You know? And he did it in a charismatic way that almost made you wanted to believe that. OK, there's some weird philosophy here that he can almost convince somebody of this, you know? Yeah.

Was there any moment for you were not to say that you ever lost your objectivity or came under his spell, but were there ever moments where you're like, this guy's kind of likable?

Like if I wasn't involved in any of this and I ran into him at a dinner party, that I might just think the guy was fine.

Every time, every time I ever met him, you know, there came a point in time where he's filed a lawsuit against me and then called me immediately and said, you know, look, I will drop the lawsuit against you if you'll abandon your prosecution against me. You know, that was his way of kind of extorting me or attempting to extort me into abandoning my clients. And there came a point. We were talking through lawyers where we both decided we're going to get more done if we don't have lawyers there.

So let's just start meeting in person. And we would meet at coffee shops and start talking in person, in person. So there comes a point in time where I use that as a way to feel him out and learn who he is and kind of get in his head. And at the same time he's trying to do the same thing. He wants me off his trail and I want to figure out how to take him down. So we're we're meeting in person in jousting this kind of intellectual chess game.

And every time we were only three minutes into every conversation where I find myself laughing at his stupid jokes, I go, hey, wait, you know, that's not a bad guy. And then you go, wait. But I know all of the things that he's done. He's a terrible guy.

He's the definition of a bad guy.

I would have to remind myself over and over again and go, OK, remember why you're here. Let's stick to it and. Try to pin him down on what his real game is, how I have you right now and listen to him try to talk his way out of it. And he was a smart guy. So he would sometimes catch you in a situation where he would say, all right, Brad, you're a smart guy. We don't have to get pinned down with all of these nuance, these laws when we're talking about I'm a billionaire who travels from Florida and the age of consent 18.

And then what? I go to New York and at 17 and then I go to France and it's 15 and all of the girls are the same. And how am I supposed to keep up with all of this? You know, biology should kind of dictate things, don't you think? Oh, so so his position was there was more of a logistical issue afoot?

Yeah. I mean, the laws really discriminate against him. You know, they didn't they weren't really intended for somebody with his life stuff. What he would say is I am a victim of arbitrary circumstance. It's arbitrary rules and I'm supposed to keep up with them.

Do you believe he believed that he was just good? You don't believe you believe that?

No, he didn't believe it. I mean, this is a guy who in high school, he was a nerd, by all accounts, skipping grades. And I think that the people who rejected him the most were the real pretty high school girls, and he never really had that. So at some point in time when he gets money, he decides he's a sociopathic guy who decides, yeah, I'm going to get back at this group, I'm going to control them at some point in time and they become his targets.

Yes, he had a nefarious agenda. But I'll also add here I am at forty three years old. I'm in an interview. The guy that's interviewing me is wearing Air Jordan fores. Right. And that's what I wanted in high school and couldn't afford. And I go to the go, wow, nice Air Jordan fores. He goes, yeah, you know, you can get them now. And I literally go, oh my God, I can afford Air Jordan fores and I buy them.

And guess what? I just bought the truck. I wanted it in high school. Like, I'm doing it where I want the shit I couldn't have in high school. Yeah, of course I'm not a fucking scumbag and I want to know something human.

Right. Right. But but I got to say, it's not beyond my comprehension to think that he was trying to assemble all the pieces that he thought he wanted in high school. And for him, those included humans.

Yeah, I agree. It's a little more complex because you weren't rejected by the Air Force. Well, financially, a little bit, I guess. But I'm not mean to my Jordans. I treat them very well. Yeah, exactly. No, he intentionally would target somebody who was very vulnerable, prey specifically on their vulnerabilities and try his very best to force them to do things they otherwise would not do with the intention of harming them. It wasn't only for his own pleasure.

He hated women from that rejection and he was a misogynist and he wanted to get even and wanted to control them.

I mean, I ended up having a mutual friend, not a mutual friend of his. He was my friend. Jeffrey Epstein was fascinated with this guy's mind. And the guy went to Jeffrey Epstein's island, kind of covert for me, doing this kind of undercover operation for me. And Jeffrey Epstein shared some of his philosophy with him and said, you know, I want a system, a new system that won't get me court to accumulate girls. And my friend says, you know, what are you talking about?

And he says, well, you know, women, they're basically a life support system for a vagina. So that's how he thought. And so then it was, how can I really target them and break them down? I mean, it was really a matter of just control.

And do you think you noticed that it was an addiction in that it evolved and got worse and worse and worse and less and less manageable? Because I guess the earliest case that I'm aware of, and you probably know them earlier, is when he invited the artist to live at his place for that big mansion was and that person was of or they weren't of age, were they of age? The sisters was one of age and one wasn't exactly one was.

OK, there's a couple of cases that are a little bit earlier than that which show up in the new indictment of Guillén Maxwell. And I think short chronology is his girlfriend's gellin Gellin realizes that Jeffrey is attracted to younger girls. I don't think that he really has the ability to get them. He's not the guy on the street trying to pick up girls a natural way. But Gellin is. And so she starts bringing him this fourteen year old, this fifteen year old who are very talented people.

I mean, that was really kind of her thing, is bring him talent and he's going to pretend to be the Victoria's Secret scout or he's going to pretend to be the model scout. It can get you into any school that you want. And then the one that you're talking about, Maria Farmer, he brings her in, gives her this job. She's she's a great painter, sets her up painting for a movie and realizes she has a sister that's ten years younger in between Guilin and Jeffrey.

They then start grooming the younger sister, realizing that's the target age group. Once he gets a taste of that age group, it does become an addiction to the point that he personally develops the. Scheme of paying one victim to go get others and it creates this massive spider web?

Well, he creates a pyramid scheme. When I was watching the documentary, I'm like, this is a shared profit, multilevel marketing, recruiting other people to recruit other people in incentivizing everyone along the way. And then, yeah, it just keeps multiplying and multiplying, right?

Oh, yeah. And he used peer pressure. I mean, these are things that he studied to like psychological peer pressure. If you have a 15 year old who's convincing their friend, it's OK, they're doing kind of the dirty work for him. And once he gets them there, they have no chance. But other people described that at the peak that it was like breathing air. He needed it three and four times a day. He was so addicted.

Yeah, that's the part. I personally, as a normal forty five year old man, there's no way I could have sex three times a day. So I was just like, this is a pathology clearly that no person really wants to fuck four times a day. Something else is happening here, right.

I mean, physiologically, how could he even accomplish that? I wondered that myself. Yeah, but also it really was not always a matter of sex as much as it was control, because there were times where he might have sex in the morning, the next time and the next time and the next time that someone comes over, if you really pay attention to details, it usually wasn't actual sex. It was this weird routine of, you know, not to be too graphic, but him masturbating while he touches and fondles, you just she don't mean them.

Right. Like excising them.

And yeah. So it's just a matter of like forcing people to do things they otherwise wouldn't do and then trying to normalize it, making them think, hey, look, this is what the rich and famous do. You're just a trailer park kid. So play along like you're in my world now. Yeah.

If you want to be in this world, this is the barrier of entry. Now, this case, what it's really exemplifying is income inequality. Like without income inequality on the level that exist, it really couldn't happen. People are so desperate, desperate, there's so much death, financial desperation that of course, an Eppstein can exist because you have so many people that two hundred dollars is life changing.

You know, two hundred dollars shouldn't be life changing for anyone in the richest country in the world.

I was just overwhelmed with that. Yeah. What's the disparity of power and money? Was the difference there? I mean, that's what created that disparity of power. You know, people have focused really on the underage girls, the high school kids that he was paying two hundred dollars because that's what they needed. But there were 18 and 19 year olds that he victimized just as bad, some worse by saying, hey, look, what do you want us to eighteen or nineteen?

Do you want to go to college? I can get you into a college because he had those connections. He wrote to men innocently, job interviews and things like that. And sometimes nothing sexual would happen for multiple times until he got them into school and they were indebted to him. Then he made his move. And you felt like you didn't have a chance.

Right. So all these predators right there, bread and butter is leverage. So his genius was probably recognizing what leverage he had or what thing they desired and then exploiting that.

That's why his side job was to accumulate all of these connections that he had so that he could then utilize those connections with universities and with scientists and with other businessmen and former presidents and whatever it was. And then he could leverage that to get what he wanted from the girls. Right.

He's donating all these institutions. Right. And then he's calling in favors to get his sex slaves some kind of an interview or something. Exactly.

I mean, sometimes he would call somebody that wanted to be in fashion. He would learn of an 18 or 19 year old over in Europe and say, oh, you want a job? I can get you a job with and without selling anybody down the river. But the top people, they come over here thinking, hey, look, I'm getting my foot in the door, which when everybody wants, right. And all of a sudden they have a job the day that they get here.

And after two weeks of having the dream job of your life, you're in another country now. You're at his house and you feel like I have no choice but to do whatever he's asked me to do.

Yeah, just a question. And this is kind of a psychological question, but I just wonder your take on it, because, you know, a lot of people hear these stories, this specific Eppstein story, but also others of workplace harassment. And they say, well, the girls should just say no or the girls should just leave or the girls should be smart enough to pick their integrity over their career. And that's so off base to the power discrepancy.

I was wondering what your take on that was having talked to these people. Yeah.

Surely you've had viewers suing somebody, right? Their lawyer is going to definitely. The defendant made that argument like, well, this was a transaction. They wanted this. He wanted that.

Well, and I also think that it's not one size fits all. But with this specific thing that the Jeffrey Epstein was doing, you have to almost put yourself in the shoes of the actual victim. Let me start by saying I've talked to a hundred or more victim. And not a single one of them was able to escape, getting abused at least one time, not a single so like picture this, right? This is a typical scenario. You go over to an eight story townhouse and you walk in thinking at most, if you've been told even close to the truth, you might have to give a massage.

But some of them is just, hey, you're a pretty girl. He might give you a modeling contract. Either way, you're put on an elevator, you're taken up to a floor. You don't know what floor you're on. You're taken into a room. You're expecting there's going to be a guy behind a desk. You walk in now you're alone in a room and a guy comes out naked with a robot and takes it off and says, start massaging me.

What really are you going to do? Most of them thought, I just want to get out of here alive, alive. And so you do whatever you're supposed to do and then you realize, wait, this guy is not holding me down. He recognizes I come from a broken home or I have these vulnerabilities and he's listening to me. He's talking to me. He cares. So he starts trying to convince him he cares. He keeps pushing limit after limit after limit.

And then at the end he actually pays. And then he says you can bring others. Look, be like me. You're an entrepreneur and he gets in their heads. The mind manipulation was just unbelievable. So there really wasn't ever a time where somebody says, I can just say no and pick my morals over anything and run out. That just wasn't the scenario here.

I think we also underestimate this is something that I came to learn throughout the Metoo movement and time's up, which is like hearing the account of some of the gals that Weinstein preyed upon, that you're there for this business meeting about acting and then he's kissing you and it takes a minute for your brain to even comprehend what's happening.

How am I getting out of this? By that point, you can be pretty far down the road. He's moving fast and you're like your brain can't even catch up to that situation and he truly can make or break your career.

Exactly. And that was also Jeffrey Epstein, too. If you went along with him, he could make your careers. But that's what he did with models or he could break it. And you knew that he actually did have those connections, same as Wainstein, which I can tell you a funny story. When I would talk to Epstein, he was friends with Weinstein. He would call them that fucking pig. So my Epstein would, like, put Weinstein down as like, that guy's a pig.

You know, I even kicked him out of my place one time for trying to screw one of my girls. So, yes, I I'd love to try to put himself on some different level. Additionally, if Jeffrey Epstein calls you a pig, you're probably a fucking pig. Yeah, exactly.

Isn't that such an interesting human thing of justification? Oh, yeah. That he saw himself as much different. Yeah. Then WEINSTEIN Yeah.

We even had a talk one time about Catholic priest. He said, I just can't believe that these Catholic priests do what they do to some of these altar boys when they know that they're using religion as power over them. That's just not fair. You're going to feel like you're getting some, like, excitement out of the fact that you're describing yourself. I mean, yeah. Yeah. Weird sociopath.

How do you explain or what is your theory on Guillame Maxwell? Your dad was kind of criminal or something. He was a rich guy, right. Who had some questionable ethics and a rich fraudster.

And he dies in some pretty mysterious way in about ninety one. You know, he either falls off the boat or someone throws him off the boat or Masad Jills him or whatever. The rumor is that you want to believe. Yeah. And she almost immediately is introduced to Epstein and Epstein has the money to replace Dad's money and she has the connections.

Can I ask real quick, did she get any of the dad's money or was the dad's money confiscated because he was a criminal or what happened with that?

Allegedly, he lost it all because it was discovered after he died that he was this fraudster and had stolen from the pension of of all of his employees. And and I understand that she didn't get any of it. So she needed money and he needed connections. They were kind of the perfect pair. And then she realized, hey, this is this guy who has this crazy sex addiction that I can't fulfill. And I think she would have done anything for him.

And so she starts feeding him and just fuels the addiction. Without her, there would be no job for him and we wouldn't be talking. None of this would have happened. Yeah, he couldn't have done all this without a partner.

She created him the first people that were brought to him to start this pyramid, they were brought by her. None of this could have grown. He could not have become who he was without her. She created the monster, no doubt about it. Wow.

Let me just also add, he is a criminal and a mastermind in this capacity. But he also every element of his life is a con, right? I mean, from beginning to end, he's teaching at a school.

He doesn't have a degree that he should to teach there. He then goes and works for Bear Stearns. He shouldn't be there.

He got caught in some regard violations at Bear Stearns insider trading type thing, and they kicked him out and then he went and worked for another fraudster, the. Guy Steven Hofburg, who was running a Ponzi scheme, who's now running around after he got out of prison saying, yeah, we were running a Ponzi scheme together. I mean, he took 19 years in prison and never sold Jeffrey Epstein out. And then he comes out saying, hey, we were supposed to split it and Jeffrey turned his back on me.

Well, of course he did. You were going to prison. So.

So is that his motivation to stay quiet is that if one of them stayed out, someone could control the money and then divvy it back up?

That's what Hofburg says. I don't really know. But but after Hofburg is when Epstein meets less WEXNER. Yes.

And this is a relationship.

I want to know everything you know about because just watching this show, I was like, OK, well, Epstein was definitely sleeping with this guy.

Give some context as people make the dock. So who is he?

Yes. So Leslie Wexner created a bunch of huge brands of Victoria's Secret.

Yeah, limited. Limited. So a billionaire many times over.

And he also started some weird real estate stuff. Right. He was building like McMansion communities and stuff. And and he himself is gay. Right. Is that is that or is that allegedly gay or is he openly gay?

No, I think I think it's allegedly because course his wife and children. And so I think it's allegedly OK.

So allegedly he's gay. And what's factual is he for some reason allows abstinence, be his business manager in make all kinds of financial decisions for him. Right. And guide where his money goes.

And he clearly must have siphoned off a ton of his money because there's really no explanation for why Epstein ends up with six hundred million dollars or whatever it is other than he had to have been ripping off Wexner.

So I think right before Epstein needs Wexner, Epstein discloses some financials that he's worth somewhere between 11 and 20 million dollars. So Epstein has accumulated some some wealth, but not the extraordinary wealth that we see later. And then he meets Wexner. And what I understand is that Wexner hires an investigator, does some some legwork on Eppstein because he's looking for somebody who's sharp to manage his his business. And they learn that Epstein is kind of a fraudster's. This grifter who has sold a bill of goods to the Dalton School, to Bear Stearns, and still Wexner hires him.

So I guess he fits the bill of whatever he's looking for. That's interesting. Wexner hires him and very early on hires him to manage not just an account here, there, but his entire life, all of his companies. He's basically going to manage everything from a tax standpoint, from an estate planning standpoint, everything. Again, I'm sorry. I know it's all allegedly, but I cannot at all find a motivation for someone as savvy. Is Wexner who built such a Goliath successful series of companies hands over the entire empire to somebody if he's not head over heels in love with the person?

I just I can't see it happening.

It doesn't make any sense. And I don't know if you've heard the rumors that I have, but I talked to many people who said, look, everybody in New York at the time said that they were lovers. I don't know that it's true. And nobody would testify to it. But they were saying they're lovers. Everybody knows that. Yeah.

Again, I have a business manager. I never gave him an apartment in New York. You know, I give the guy a percentage and that's how it works. You don't you don't give your business manager a house, especially the largest townhouse in all of New York City. Right. The most incredible house on the whole island doesn't make a lot of sense. So he charges him a flat fee, which I think is over a hundred million dollars. So so Epstein's wealth goes through the roof overnight.

And then Eppstein at some point in time realizes that Wexner is this rich guy who signed a power of attorney. He's turned everything over to Epstein and he doesn't watch his own money. So Epstein start setting up charities and siphoning some money over, letting it sit there for a while and then says, OK, look, this guy's really not paying attention and he just starts stealing from Wexner. I mean, I think a lot of it I don't know how many tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions, is there a paper trail of that, like had he lived and gone to trial?

Is that something that is well documented?

I think that there probably is a paper trail. I don't think that Wexner would ever give it up. It's embarrassing that he got. Yeah, I think that they say that's why cons are so successful. Right. Is that the people are too embarrassed to go to the authorities in most cases.

Well, I think what Epstein realized is it's a lot more lucrative to steal from the super rich than it is to go rob a convenience store. That's especially when someone's a billionaire and isn't going to miss three hundred million dollars and has a secret, right?

Yeah, right. It allegedly has a secret. I got to keep saying that word so that guy doesn't sue me.

So also there was this episode allegedly of an alleged interview about alleged criminals, but didn't he he either gave him or only charged him two million bucks for this, well, I don't know, fourteen thousand square foot house in that neighborhood. And then he was allowed to sell it at some point for. Fifty million or whatever the hell it was, right, like some crazy other creative ways to just give him tons of money. Yes.

And over time, we did learn of other very wealthy people who were scammed by Eppstein of ten million dollars here, 20 million dollars there. I mean, he really was this this grifter who had so enmeshed himself with with the upper echelon people. And because he had this clout from connections, there was this believability and credibility that he had which allowed him to kind of pull off one scam after another. You know, if Glenn Maxwell knows anything, it's about those scams now.

Is she going to give information about those scams to reduce her sentence? And are prosecutors really going to care enough about them to reduce her sentence for what is now sex trafficking? I don't know. But the secrets do lie with her. You know, if anybody knows the paper, it's her.

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OK, we'll catch people up, so if they don't know, so in two thousand eight, he actually was tried for this and he struck this insane plea deal with Alexander Acosta, the federal prosecutor, and he negotiates a what, a 13 month sentence, and then he later pays off the people involved there. And he's in there for 13 months, but he's not there all day long. He can come and go from this jail cell. And he's but but the most shocking part of the plea deal, right, is that Acosta gave him immunity for all co-conspirators.

Yeah.

I mean, that's one shocking thing. There's so many shocking things about it. It's like everything shocking about it. Right.

Named and unnamed. Right. So they're going to give immunity to anybody he has conspired to commit crimes with. And we will learn about. Does that ever done? I mean, that's the first time I've ever heard that one.

It's never done. But also it was in exchange for nothing. Right. You're not getting anything in return. What's the consideration for that? That's what makes no sense. Yeah. I mean, what do they think that he was going to mount such a legal battle that it was going to end up dragging on and costing the government so much money that could it have even possibly been financially motivated to strike that deal?

No, I don't I don't see how that's possible. I mean, when you really look at the paperwork, you know, we filed the lawsuit against the US attorney's office for the purpose of invalidating that illegal deal. You know, it's an immunity agreement that was struck behind the victim's back, which violates the Crime Victims Rights Act. So we filed on behalf of the victims they had located and already had evidence that at least 40 minors were sexually abused and trafficked by Jeffrey Epstein.

They had prepared a fifty three page indictment. And then Jeffrey Epstein informs them of his vast connections. I mean, you see that in the trail. He hires a bunch of very well-known lawyers who know a lot of people that are involved in the prosecution and Department of Justice and things like that. And then all of a sudden you see it go from an indictment to an immunity agreement or the first drafts of the immunity agreement. And at the same time, how are we going to keep the victims in the dark and from knowing about this so that there aren't any objections to it?

I mean, otherwise, this is all going to blow up in our face. And they very carefully choreograph how that whole thing is going to go away and no one's going to know about it. Yeah. So then it takes Courtney while walking into my office and telling me this, which sounded so unbelievable. I say, look, we're just going to sue him. So so we sue the US attorney's office, which that lawsuit then kind of grows into everybody in the world knowing just how ugly this deal was.

OK, so, Bradley, were you already involved representing some of the victims when that was all happening or did your involvement come out of that?

Yeah, there were no lawyers representing the victims when that was all happening, but that was kind of the point. It's like Epstein's lawyers start convincing the government to make it go away. The victims were being told this is a massive investigation. Just be patient. And they're being sent letters that say it's a massive investigation, be patient. And so they don't know to do anything. They're just waiting for a trial. And meanwhile, this immunity agreement is signed.

Well, one of the victims, Courtney Wilde, comes to me and says, hey, look what's going on. I can't get anybody to respond. And so I start trying on her behalf to get in touch with the government who's giving me information that sounds very fishy, which leads to the lawsuit to try to disrupt the immunity agreement. And we find out in court that it was a secret agreement that had been signed nine months ago. So we were like late to the party that they had kept the victims in the dark too long.

Yeah. What was the outcome of that? You suing the Justice Department after 10 years?

The judge ruled in February of twenty nineteen. So I filed that. June twenty eight, February twenty nineteen. The judge finally rules that the government did violate the victim's rights. So we won 11 years later.

Was there was there any kind of financial compensation tied to that verdict?

No, there was not supposed to be any financial compensation. It was all about invalidating the agreement. OK, so after we prove that their rights were violated, we say, OK, the remedy is to invalidate the agreement. And then when Jeffrey Epstein died in jail, the judge said, well, it's moot, nothing you can do about it. And we said, wait, it's not moot because he also got immunity for all these co-conspirators. So we should still invalidate this thing.

We have a bunch of co-conspirators running around who also can't be prosecuted now. Yeah.

Now, in all of your investigation, in your dealings with him and you're privy to all kinds of information that most of us aren't, is the coconspirator element factually substantiated? Like is it likely that we will see some co-conspirators go down? Well, I mean, I. I think that you're seeing one in Gehlen, you know, right, and if anybody really digs in to the non prosecution agreement, it covered crimes in a certain period of time. Twenty one to twenty seven in Florida.

So you're going to see people prosecuted in New York because Jeffrey Epstein, he didn't just come to Florida to commit his crimes. They happened everywhere. What you won't see are co-conspirators that are arrested and prosecuted in crimes in Florida that we know that they committed because of the non prosecution agreement, unless we're successful, potentially have the US Supreme Court level of getting it invalidated.

So that is still binding. So in Florida, they still can't prosecute anyone from that window of time.

Right now, they can't unless we win our appeal. And I'm not asking you to get in hot water, but do you know of some of the ones in Florida that would be prosecuted? Oh, yeah. I mean, look, of the 40 victims in Florida, I probably represent 30 of them. And I know some of the people that were involved in their abuse and were definitely conspiring with Epstein or even engaged in the acts.

Now, what's your take? This is very dicey.

So Bill Clinton has a good start of the sex. Yeah, yeah. I just think it would be I think people would be pissed if I didn't bring this up. Yeah, let's do it. Bill Clinton seems to be on twenty seven flights or something like that. Twenty four flights.

Right. It seems clear he was went to his island because I like Bill Clinton and I'm a liberal. I'm inclined to make the argument. Well, tons of people took meetings with Bill Cosby. That doesn't mean they were complicit in what Bill Cosby was doing and he didn't do himself any favors acting like he hadn't even flown on the plane. So, I mean, what are your thoughts about that? I mean, again, people could have clearly been to his island and not been pedophiles.

And also, it's not a great look to have been at that island.

Yeah, I mean, I think that Bill Clinton's one of those people that we have to be careful to to call it like it is with the evidence and not jump to any conclusions. So I'll just kind of lay out what I know and what the facts are. Two thousand nine, when I learned that Jeffrey Epstein and Bill Clinton at one point in time were decently close and that Clinton was at Jeffrey Epstein's homes, had pictures in his homes, had pictures on his plane, had flown on the plane many times.

I asked to take his deposition. I asked to speak with him and have been met with refusals, usually through his lawyer, but hasn't offered anything up. I do know, after speaking with a lot of people, including those who were in his presence on some of the trips that I have not heard one thing that he ever engaged in any sexual acts, especially with anybody under age. Well, that's a big relief that. Yeah, it's nice to hear.

Yeah, I think that's important that people know that. Yeah, but but I also know that he was on the plane with Epstein and his co-conspirators and some of the victims that Epstein abused. And so he made observations that it would seem like, again, let's just be a good person. Tell us what you know. Yeah. Yeah. So I'd like to hear it, but I don't think that anybody should jump to these crazy conclusions, which just so far, to my knowledge, aren't really supported by by evidence.

One of the most disturbing things to me was that when I wanted to take Guillén Maxwell's deposition and she escaped the deposition the first time by telling me she was leaving the country because her mom was sick and never going to come back. And then I'm walking in my own kitchen and I look at one of my wife's magazines and it's open and I see Bill Clinton and I go, holy shit. I zoom in and I see it's Gellin Maxwell front row at Chelsea's wedding and he's walking her down the aisle.

And I go, I help me out. Just give me some info.

Well, look, I was once a friend with a guy that's currently being tried for three rapes in L.A. and it's deplorable and I hate it, but I had nothing to do with that guy's secret. I certainly didn't know anything about that. So it is tricky, man.

I think it's extra tricky with the Clintons and why there's a constant denial of everything, because I do think they get the brunt of a lot of conspiracy. There's so many people after them all the time that I think they're at the point where they're like, we just got to deny everything because we're going to get entrapped in something. Whether it's true or whether it's not true, it's going to it's a lose lose for us. So we have to deny.

I'm not saying that's right, but I think that's part of this whole system with them. Well, also, they are in a position where they have this foundation and they are grooming donors. So people with money, I'm sure, have access to them, as is how it works. And that is not it's not a great look.

It's not not not ideal. No, it's an allegedly bad luck, yes. OK, so right before his death, did he transfer all of his assets to his brother? Is that what happened?

No, I mean, that's one of those bad news reports. Just fake news. Oh, OK. Yeah. So but two days before he died, he set up his will, which it seems the only real legal ramifications were that if anything that's left over from his estate that was set up in the Virgin Islands, which has roughly six hundred and fifty million dollars in it, after all the claims are paid, let's say all of the victims that make claims against the estate after they're paid, then the money will go into a trust.

We still don't know who the beneficiaries of the trust are. I assume that his brother might be one of them, but I have good reason to believe there are many beneficiaries. I don't know who they are, but that's all that he really did, is set this will up. But he didn't do it to deprive any victims of the assets because we're making claims against the estate. A program has been set up which I helped them to set up so that victims could be compensated without going through 10 years more of litigation.

How's that work out? Like, yeah, what's the process there? So, you know, early on it was he dies. And so his estate basically stands on issues and each of the victims could sue the estate. And we worked with the estate lawyers to set up a non adversarial process where they could submit a claim. There'd be a program administrator who's kind of a neutral party set up, evaluate the claim, make an offer to the victim based on her particular circumstances, the damages that she shows, she can accept it or reject it and file a lawsuit.

But what victim right now wants to be re victimized through litigation with good lawyers who are going to drag them through this? And he's not even alive yet.

You can't even see him suffer. You can't even see him suffer.

Now, it's just as money. So the process is set up hopefully so that it can remain confidential, at least most of the crimes he committed against them. You can't go to jail. He's dead. So I think it's going to be a successful program. We've designed it to be very victim friendly.

Have any victims receive compensation yet?

It's only been up and running two weeks. Oh, OK. Yeah, it took us about seven months to get it set up in a way that the estate agreed to. We representing the victims, agreed to and the program administrators agreed to.

Now while you personally are representing fifty six and then there's more obviously that you don't represent.

Yeah, I think overall there's probably going to be one hundred and twenty five that make claims.

OK, so even if you start with six hundred fifty million dollars. One hundred people making claims you know. Yeah.

I don't know how there would be any money left in this estate for anyone to chop up if the program is administered fairly and they're really evaluating some of the damages that were really done to some of these people, which, you know, as you can imagine, there's a continuum. Some of them have done OK. Others have not at all. You know, it's been devastating to them. I don't see how there would be any money left either.

Well, there's so much hard data that victims of that type of abuse, just horrendous outcomes of that kind of abuse.

That's interesting you say that because going through these cases, these are women who don't know one another. The common denominator is what Jeffrey Epstein did to them. But the consequences are so similar, the number that self medicated with drugs and got into drug addiction or got into escorting. Yeah.

Any number of outcomes where people are going to be permanently changed. So horrendous now. Well, let's just throw Prince Andrew out there. What is he being sued?

He hasn't been sued yet. You know, we have clients who met Prince Andrew. He's his own worst enemy, really, you know. Yeah. This is a guy who is the worst advice ever to do that stupid interview that he did where he tried to say, you know, that photograph of him in Virginia, Roberts and Glenn Maxwell was like Photoshop because his thumb was too big or something is so silly. Can't you just say, I did it?

She was 17 years old. Seventeen years old is the age of consent in England and move on with your life. Yeah, but he didn't do that. You know, the denial thing, it doesn't look good, especially when there's a photo of it. It's like, yeah. And then we have been asking him for years to come over and give a deposition, tell us what you know, and he hasn't. And now we have the US attorney's office basically begging him to come over and he's saying, I really want to, but I don't know what.

But like, I can't find the United States too warm there this time here. Yes. It's just really hot.

God now. OK, his death. I'm. Personally of the opinion that he I mean, when you really understand just how insanely lavish lifestyle was, I mean, each one of these houses they showed was more fantastic than the last. The fact that he was what do you have a business Boeing business jet or something? You know, he has the most outrageous airplane. I mean, this is me personally. I think that he sat in that cinderblock box for a while and said, I'm not going to win this one and I cannot live here.

This is not an option. And I am incapable of eating crow and I refuse to go down that road. To me, suicide seems like a very plausible Ockham's Razor outcome to that scenario. That's exactly right.

And that's not as much fun as all of the sensational rumors out there. Right. That's why I made a point to put that into the book. Yeah. That I wrote because there were all of these fantastical stories. And I thought, listen, I've met this guy many times and he is all about control. He has to control everybody. He can't be controlled for a second any smar.

It's not like he was delusional. He obviously he saw that he had wiggle room in 2008 and he played it out. But there was no wiggle room at this point.

Well, I think that until his bond was denied, he was going to hang in there. Once his bond was denied, he realized, I'm never getting out. I'm going to control the last thing I can control. And that's how long I stay here. Yes, I completely agree. Now, on the other hand, I think if he had stayed there long enough, somebody might have killed him.

There's no doubt in my mind that he committed suicide, that while I'm told they don't like pedophiles in prisons, I don't think he had many friends there.

I can't imagine that they would have liked a billionaire. Yeah, I think that those conspiracy theories made for some funny Meems, but it's just doesn't make any sense. So, yeah. Yeah. I think that we're probably going to find that he may have buddied up with the guards because remember, he still was a very charismatic guy. And we do have these two guards at the other end of the hall saying they checked on him every 30 minutes and the video shows they never got out of their seat for eight hours.

I wouldn't doubt it if he said, hey, guys, I'm cool down here. You don't have to come down so that he was sure that he would have time to kill himself. Yeah, which is why they're under investigation.

Or let's even go for an even more human thing, which is like, I don't want to get out of this chair and I don't really give a fuck if that guy kills himself. I mean, that would be my opinion. Yeah. You know, I'm not I'm not too incentivized to make sure this guy stays alive. And I think the world might be better if he's not. I mean, you know, there's any number of reasons maybe why they didn't do a great job checking in on him.

OK, now your book, Relentless Pursuit My Fight for the victims of Jeffrey Epstein. When you wrote it, you know, you've spent more than a decade of your life involved in this. Did you learn anything about your own experience in writing this book?

Yeah, I mean, I wrote it for a couple of reasons. One, I had learned that there were others that were trying to capitalize on this sensational story. And we're going to write a book, this book about Jeffrey Epstein and the legal process and everything. And I thought that doesn't make any sense. It's going to be inaccurate. Nobody knows the story. I was the one in the trenches. Somebody is going to piece together news stories and police reports.

That's not fair to the victims. I think that people need to understand who the victims and survivors were, how courageous they were, how we ultimately trapped Jeffrey Epstein and got him arrested, how we brought him to justice from the inside. So we're part of my motivation was I don't want to let somebody else screw this up. Right. You know, so that was my first kind of complaint around the office was I can't believe that somebody else is going to take this story and screw it up.

It's not fair to our clients. And then also, as we were doing it, it was cathartic. You know, I needed finality. Yeah. You know, because as much as I didn't like him, I still got to know him well and thought, man, he's really deprived everybody, my clients and me of we spent so much time getting him here and now he's gone. Yeah.

I mean, aside from the victims, I can't imagine there was any one on planet Earth more upset he killed himself than you.

I mean, you were this close to a decades of work and being able to look at him in a courtroom, get found guilty.

You know, that's what the ten years was about in Phuket, man. That would frustrate me. Yeah.

Beyond frustrated to the point that my office we run a very organized trial office where we're constantly chasing bad guys. And let's just move on to the next one. And I was finding myself going, I can't believe somebody else is going to screw this story up. And the world will never know exactly how it was that we ultimately trapped him. And I complained enough to where one of my partners, Brittany Henderson, says, look, why don't you just write the book?

Why don't we just do this? I say, Yeah, but we don't have time to do this. She says, look, our workday ends at six p.m. I will literally stay here and listen. To you, I said, all right, I'll start talking at six p.m. and we will just hammer this out and and that's what we did. I would start talking, she would type and we would start fighting over things because I remembered certain things.

And I would say, like, this is how the deposition went. And she would go look at the transcript and say, yeah, that's not really how went. And the mind is a tricky place in my mind. That's what we hammered this thing out in about six weeks and we would do it from six p.m. to 4:00 in the morning. But we were proud of the fact that like six weeks later, we sent it to Simon and Schuster and said, hey, what do you think?

Do we have anything? Here is a mess. And they're like, it's great. We love it. You put the story together. And I just felt good that I did it as opposed to we let somebody else screw the story up.

And did you have any cooperation from any of the victims you represent? Were there women that wanted to be a part of that? All of them. All of them.

Every single one I went to and said, hey, look, I think that it's important that this aspect of the story is told. Every one of them was all on board. We agree. I mean, the story needs to be told the right way. That's great.

Yeah, I have to imagine it's it's an empowering experience to, although I'm sure embarrassing and shameful and all these things also empowering to say out loud what someone did. You and I know in my own experience with being honest about being molested and stuff, it really certainly takes the weight off to just have it out there and then see that people don't think you're any of these things you feared they would think you were. No.

And plus, we painted them the way that they ought to have been painted. They were heroes. They were heroes. To me, it was like we needed their voice to make all this happen.

Yeah. The thing I felt most bad was I could tell in their interviews that they had some level of shame for their own victimhood and then yet an entirely different bag of guilt and shame for including other people. And that's really the worst thing he did to them.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. It really is. Yeah.

To make them participate in more is probably so hard for them because that's the guilt that no matter how much therapy they have, it's almost impossible to erase, you know. Yes. But you cope with the abuse that you suffered. But the fact that you brought your friends into it, it's like you're living with this additional weight. And that was his psychological hold. He created the system to make them complicit and make them feel indebted and make them feel like they were part of the problem.

Yes, that was no accident. That was something he did intentionally.

Yeah. I mean, but there's just so many layers to this. I got to be honest. When I started watching the documentary, I was like, I don't know if I can go down this road, you know? Yeah.

It was the corruption that interested me so much, the abuse of power, how it shined a light on how much corruption still really is existing on that level. But I think even I was naive, too.

I mean, I you know, I read Killing Pablo, this great book about Pablo Escobar. And the most sensational part of the whole thing is that he said, OK, I'll surrender if you allow me to build my own prison, which he did. And he built tunnels so he could leave whenever he wanted. He played fucking soccer games in town. And then he came back and the prison was gorgeous and had big screen TVs. And I thought, you know, that is something that could only happen in Colombia from a guy that has eight billion dollars in nineteen eighty eight.

Like that's such a unique situation that that could happen.

And to see that it virtually happened in Florida, it was so shocking.

Yeah, well, I went into it so naive to I had just come out of the prosecutor's office myself and decided I'm going to represent crime victims in civil cases. And when Courtney Wall came to me, I thought, I'm going to make one telephone call to the US Attorney's office and they're going to say, yes, it's this enormous investigation. Be patient, like we said in the letter, and it's over. Yeah, I think that wait, the corruption is real.

I mean, her her belief that something nefarious is going on is real turned out worse than anybody could have ever imagined. So in the event that the Supreme Court ends up throwing out that deal entirely.

Right. Which you say could happen in the future here, do you think that will then lead to any kind of investigation of Acosta or anyone else around him? Or do you think we'll ever get an answer as to how that deal was made?

You know, unfortunately, I think that the most thorough investigation that will actually be done is going to have to be done by some investigative journalist that cares to get to the bottom of it.

Ronan Farrow. Yeah, Ronan, you're listening. Yeah. Ronan, figure this out, man. I mean, it could be that he was just stupid, right? I mean, that's no one would like.

Now you're shaking your head. No, OK, he's not stupid, OK?

No, it's not that. There's much more to it.

How hard was it to have to edit out things in the book that, you know, you want to say, but that legally you can't? Say, was that the most heartbreaking part of the book, so painful? We wrote the book in six weeks in the editing process was four months and. Yeah, and you're taking out things that you're going you've got to be kidding me. I mean, we know this from three different sources, but if there's not a document, then all of a sudden we can't say it.

I mean, come on, it is a painful thing that the truth sometimes you just can't you can't get it all out.

There's a couple of things about him that shocked me that seem inconsistent with him in general. He did shy away from publicity. And that does seem to be the thing that traps most people. Right, as people want to be recognized in general. He did keep a pretty low profile. Right.

That is a guy that could have been doing interviews every other day, sort of. But remember, he so he set it up so that it would look that way. Right. That he's kind of he wants to stay out of the limelight, but he has gellin out there who is pumping him up and making him even more important. You know, he's the Wizard of Oz. He's almost too important to even interact with the most powerful people in the world.

But she's out there telling everybody just how philanthropic and powerful and all masterful that he is. So it was kind of a ploy that, hey, I don't really want to be that well known. When he really has his minions on the street, he did it by proxy. Yeah, exactly. So what's ahead for her? I'm just curious, like, what's the next step? They have taken her into custody. They wouldn't have done that if they didn't already have their case.

Right. They don't arrest someone before they have their case. So they already have their case against her, I would imagine.

Yep. They have charged her with six crimes which relate to enticement of minors for sex on three victims dating back to the 90s and then charged with perjury for two counts of lying under oath in civil depositions that we took. And the trial is set for next July. So she's denied bail. She's sitting in jail waiting for her trial. I mean, that's all that's really left for her.

Are you allowed to tell me you've met her? And are you allowed to tell me what you're just feeling about her was? Sure.

I mean, in meeting Glenn Maxwell, I would say that she's one of these people who walks in the room and tries to make everybody believe she's the most important person in the room, but also at the same time that she's better than everyone in the room. I mean, that's the feeling that she tried to give off in the deposition room. She's too important. She's too important for the whole process. Right.

She's above the whole thing. Did she have any of the charisma that Epstein had?

I didn't see it, but I've heard about it. You know, I mean, I've heard from many people that she's the life of every party and she's a chameleon. She can blend in with anybody. But she was on the defensive in depositions, are not comfortable for anybody, no matter who you are.

Yeah. Oh, my God. By the way, it was you that asked the question about his fucking penis, right?

Was, Oh, what a moment.

What did they say? It would look like a potato. The oh yes.

Over and then shake it. Oh, my goodness. So most of the ridiculous questions that were asked to get under his skin were me in depositions. But that particular one, every time we got a deposition of him, you had to assemble this large group of attorneys, which was a real pain in the ass. Yes. Symbol this large group for that deposition. And it was another lawyer's deposition. That was the first question.

Oh, oh, boy. We we were not in that room. Ten minutes we had just set up. First question, is it true, sir, that you have an excuse?

Yeah. Because he had to imagine. Wow, that's the icebreaker. This thing is going to get even uglier.

But you see, I've seen his face. He kind of smirks at it like, I don't know, do I now was drugs a part of this whole thing?

Not at all. Epstein's never drink used drugs in his life. Oh, my God. Absolutely against it. And when he would catch any of the girls on the island, he would send them home. Really? That was something you were not allowed to have any anywhere in his presence?

Well, that would that would diminish his control, probably if they were totally right.

And I've heard some of these girls actually got kicked off the island for having cocaine there. But although I do know of some of his friends that he hung out with who had cocaine problems, in fact, kind of funny story. In 2009 or 2010, I went to serve with a subpoena, one of his friends in New York and the process server literally walked up to his friend to serve him and he turned around and put his hands behind his back.

He, like that, is being arrested. Paranoid? Yeah. Oh, boy, oh, boy. Oh, boy.

Well, Bradley, I'm very excited to read your book, and I am glad that you are attempting to give the gals closure and yourself closure. And it must have just been the most frustrating outcome that no one got to look in his face and say, fuck you, man, you did not get away with this.

Yeah, that's true. I mean, it was nice to see him at the bail hearings and things like. But you're right, the ultimate justice just we didn't we didn't get it, and I commend you for just staying on the trail the whole time. I mean, he could have tired people out, you know, he could have won the war of attrition. And I'm glad you're a hound dog and you wouldn't get off of it. I appreciate it.

Well, great to meet you, Bradley.

I really appreciate you walking us through that and giving us some insight on one of the more compelling, crazy, horrifying, horrifying, you know, stories of the last 20 years. It's wild. Thanks for having me on.

I really appreciate it. Yeah, absolutely. I hope we chat again. I would love it. All right. Bye. See you next.

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And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soul mate Monica Padman. Oh I woke up so early today.

Oh my God. Because we had a big ass and I was nervous. Yeah yeah yeah.

I sprang awake at five am and I was like time to work together. You you only have six hours. It's a big week for us.

We had a big guest today and we have a Titanic guest tomorrow. That's not a Leo DiCaprio hint. No, it's not Leo DiCaprio, although we would love to have him on.

Yeah, we Leo Leo, we love to have you come out.

He's a cute boy. He is a cute boy.

I'm hung out with him like six times and I've never had a conversation with him. Really? Yeah. We've a couple of mutual friends kind of playing hard to get.

He is well it's work and I got me on the hook for all of us.

I do love him and he's so fucking talented. Oh, I know he's such a big star that I always think I'm not going to be able to stop thinking that it's Leonardo DiCaprio. Does that make sense?

And then every time I do, every time I'm like, oh, he's that fucking good. Yeah, he's just got the cutest face. Oh, it's a very cute face.

It's interesting because he was like boyishly cute, but he got very handsome. Yeah, that's. Yeah he's. Yeah, yeah.

Both it's what it is is the grass was greener on both sides. Oh yeah. He had boyish good looks and now it's super handsome.

How come he doesn't want to marry you.

Well yeah. How come there. Well maybe he does. We'll see what it's like when he comes on at some point. Yeah.

I think the only reason is our marriage is is you. That's nice of you to say. Yeah, that's my guess. You're lying. So I want you to marry him because I guess he's got dinosaur bones in his house. I heard he's got like a T-Rex skull.

Oh, and you want me to, like, grab it for you?

No, I just want you to invite me to your new house with Leo. Oh, let me look at that dinosaur, OK? I know he won't talk to me. I'll go over there. I'll probably have like five or six dinners with you guys and nothing.

First of all, I feel like you'd feel protective, but also you'd feel if you started dating him. Yeah. Oh, sure.

I'd have to shake him down in a way that I never would normally need to shake him down because I'm your dad.

Yeah, I know. And my dad is not going to shake them down at all.

Your real dad. Yeah. Yeah. Your biological father. But not your father. Who raised you?

You. My dad. Yeah. Current my current dad. I don't like saying that because that makes it sound. That's true.

It's got to be something about regional dad. Like I'm here basically is what's going on.

Stand in my stance and dad would be you and you'd be shaking him down, but he would be so good at playing hard to get that you kind of wouldn't be able to do that and then you're going to get mad. I could see you getting really mad in this scenario. Well, it could happen.

Yeah, because here's the thing. It doesn't bother me at all that he's never talked to me when I've been around him. I have recognize the extreme cumbersome nature of how famous he is. Like, it's just on everyone's mind. Anywhere he's out, it's palpable. And so I have always been like, yeah, dude, if I were you, like, yeah, the gate shut. I got my friends and I'm good. Yeah, I want to leave the house.

I don't mean I want to talk to everyone that is around me. Yeah. So I've always had no problem with it. But now you want my daughter's hand in marriage. You got to chat with me or it's going to get physical.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I will attack and this is what I'm saying.

Oh.

And then my real dad's going to have to get involved because he's not going to want his son in law and his other dad partner is going to be upset and oh things are going to get really dicey.

Maybe we should just skip this whole deal. Yeah, maybe I should pick someone up.

Surely someone else has a Tyrannosaurus Rex skull in their house. OK, I'll do some research. Yeah. Find that person and marry them, please. You know, what? Is it going to be hard.

Tell me when I marry Leo. Yeah. Another hardship is I'm going to want him to move into my house. Right. But he's probably going to want to stay at his house.

It's most assuredly bigger and of more value. If he can house a T rex skull and like you can walk around it, this is going to be a problem with a lot of my husband's like Brad Pitt.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Man, Ben, Brad might live. He might he might like to live in my house. Brad feels like he likes cozy architecturally specimen house.

Yes. Pessimistic. He insists on pessimistic textual design. Yeah. And that's what my house is.

Absolutely. It screams pessimistic.

But Leo might not like it because there's probably not that much space for his dinosaurs.

There isn't a room in your house that would accommodate a T rex, maybe the living room, but I don't even know. I think the width it make it hard to walk around in the living room.

We're going to have so many fights about this because I want to big cumbersome t rex.

Yes. And I want it to look aesthetically pleasing lobby.

I've just arrived and he's never here. Yeah, he's he doesn't trust us. No, that's not what it is.

He's just being really careful and doing the right thing. And we're proud of him.

And he thinks we're diseased dicks. He does. You know, why don't you hop on your little microphone over there? Hello. Oh, is he looks so cute today.

He's got a little hat on and he looks a little very little boyish.

It's not a little had. No, it's a normal size hair like one of those ones. I have a propeller that's.

No, no, no. He's not my son's hat. It's not your son's hat now. OK, so we're going to pause to make a video.

We're going to resume. Let's resume. Are we resumed your. Oh, yes. It's August and. We have been in quarantine. We have since mid-February. Mm hmm. We're very privileged, luxurious one where we got to travel as a pod once. Yeah, that helped outta that that.

How do you think that is a big shift in everyone's attitude?

Yeah, it was it was nice. People were in the doldrums just prior to that trip or I'll speak for myself. I was in the doldrums. You were. I need a little something to look forward to.

I got a couple of things right now. What are they? I'm going to do a review of the track. OK, what's that?

It's an SUV that makes 700 horsepower. And I'm going to Willow Springs on Saturday to test that for Top Gear.

And I think some of the test will be on the racetrack and some will be on an off road course because it's an SUV. So we are really, really excited.

Really. That's fun. Can I be on Top Gear? We never have anyone on, but if we had someone on, yes, what would I do, jump a car? You imagine will it be like I'll set it up for you? Make it real easy and put you in the car and I'll say, just go this speed, that's all I got to go this speed, go twenty seven miles an hour and hit the ramp and you'll be fine.

What? Don't you feel scared if you knew I was doing that?

You know, I weirdly have some bizarre confidence that you would do it really because you learn to play the drums in five minutes, ok. Ever since you did that, my, my opinion of what you're capable of is gone through the roof.

It's a way off. Like one level of coordination is I think you'd be great at jumping ship. Hmm. OK, I'm gonna have my agent pass.

No, OK. It's all your passing. Yeah. Passing on the opportunity. OK, on the potential of it.

So you're excited about that and that and you're excited about what started this whole thing. We have a mega guest tomorrow and you're excited about that. Yeah. And I'm excited.

I dare say this is the best we could possibly do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll say that too. We really compared it to like we we named everyone. Yeah.

Would you rather this person would you rather have this person. Nobody. I know there was a tie.

Yeah. Yeah. Obama. Yeah. It's not Obama. It's not Obama.

But he was the tie. He was the only tie and I don't even know which is crazy.

I know. Yeah. I think I'd actually want to talk more to the person. We're going to talk to you tomorrow. Oh man. Oh man. Yeah. The simulation.

It's the first time I told my mom that I was interviewing someone, but I told my mom over FaceTime yesterday and she just was like, can you believe it?

I know from Milford, Michigan, she got pretty excited.

And I did, too.

Yeah, I told my parents to and they were excited. Oh, yeah. What they say they were excited and not.

Of course not. They never will be. Exactly. So so I think in Indiana. I know. Yeah.

Well they're not stinky and stinking. Stinking. Yeah. They're not stinky. No Indian. Some people think Indians are stinky. Who thinks that people. Are you sure people don't think the food is.

Yes. That's all connected. OK, yeah I get really trigger. Yeah. Yeah, yeah I understand.

Well the food has a very distinct fragrance as does spaghetti and pizza.

Exactly. Yeah. I love spaghetti and pizza. Oh me too.

But we would love to marsala. We had it yesterday. Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. Marsala. That's right. OK, tick up Marsella. Well we had it and it was so delicious.

Oh my God. And then I've proposed having a new doctors clinic.

That's right. Which is tikka masala superfood klinz. Yeah. That's just eating three meals a day. Yeah.

And what I think is even though I love it so much, there'll be times over the course of the week really. I'd rather just not eat. I'm sick and have a third portion of this.

So it's going to have like a caloric reduction built into it. Wow. Because you'll just tire of it.

Sure. Anyways, I think it's going to be the next big diet.

Uh oh boy.

It feels like a superfood. I feel like it's got everything you need. I give you all spice tikka masala.

I'm saying no, you're you're not trying so hard when I say, can we just call TM.

No, people think transcendentalism. No, we can call what it is because you can do it. Marcello Yeah.

Right tikka masala. Oh OK.

Well this doctor's first tikka masala superfood cleanse brought to you by this doctor with an inherent caloric reduction element.

But yeah, I got to imagine it's a very complete, you know, with the rice and the chicken, the protein, the car, the you got. So all the sauce is is a tomato based. That's right.

So some vitamin C probably in there. I think it's a pretty comprehensive dish.

Probably got some turmeric turmeric. I like calling it turmeric. Well, are you going to play the Indian card right now?

Yeah, it's tumeric I know, but I think Indians call it turmeric.

Turmeric. So do they spell it t u r I think oh my gosh, these Indians.

I know I get it. I don't, I don't like them anymore.

Any group of people, any population that would pronounce it turmeric when it's spelt tumour's it's tumeric, it's a Dumaresq.

It's not the tumor. Oh.

Oh no. Oh it's it's been a long time. It has, it has been a nice reprieve. Oh God. I even look over here.

I can't. Are you eating, are you eating your Terminix like the Terminator or is it the Dumaresq. It's not the tumeric.

Oh my God.

All right, that's enough. OK, let me do it a little bit. Are you OK?

Five percent of the audience likes that and they missed it. I bet. Ninety five likes it. I don't know. That's. Hi, everybody. Your reaction to it, it seems a little hard they're not sitting here, so they don't have to be around me.

Yeah, I think I look cute. This is the problem. This is I won't stop. Yes, you're right. It's hard. It's very, very hard once you start, especially if I find part of my voice like my throat.

So you seem to leave all the time up.

OK, OK, I'm over it. Beep Oh I got headphones. Oh I official quit. OK. Oh man. I mean look at your reaction. It's violent. That's why I think only five percent because you're violent. You react.

No, because you cannot stop even when you're trying to stop. And there's something horrifying about it. Oh impulse control.

Yeah. Like that. I might start swinging or something. I know. But this. Oh, you have no control. That is true. Yeah, and I feel like you don't like seeing me out OK. Yeah, OK. Yeah, that's fair.

You barely got through that.

Oh, it's so hard not to do right now. Yeah, I can't breathe.

It feels terrific. I know. And I think I feel really uncomfortable. Not safe. Exactly. OK, OK. So Brad Edwards.

Brad was a party. I'm going to label him a party.

Well, it's not very often we get like a rock and expert on who's kind of a ragtag partier, not that he is a partier, but I think he likes to get down what I call him a party.

I call him like a charity fundraiser. So it's like it's fun, but it's it's also very helpful. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. The guy is incredible. Yeah. But but he's also like you go, oh I'd love to go on a trip and rent jet skis with that guy. Sure.

What a piece of ass we look like.

You were struggling for a word and I thought this was your thing now.

Oh just what a life he's living. Yeah. Being inundated in this story and helping all these women. Yeah.

He's in the hub of the wheel of this crazy story. Yeah.

OK, so the name of the Eppstein dog, which I very much encourage everyone to watch you haven't watched it is Jeffrey Epstein, Filthy Rich.

It's on Netflix. Good title, filthy rich. Oh, I looked at the age of consent in different states. Yeah, I did this the other day too. It's all like sixteen and above.

Basically it's no one's under sixteen anymore. But just ten years ago there were many places that it was fifteen, there were several places that were thirteen in the eighties. It just has recently changed.

Yeah. It's sixteen is the minimal which still I was surprised by that. I thought everywhere was eighteen. I don't know.

I would imagine what gets tricky is that it's not abnormal for a 16 year old to date. A 19 year old. Right.

And so you're in a pickle because if you say it's illegal to be with a sixteen year old as an adult, then no one that's eighteen or above can date a 60 year old, which is in high school. Many 18 year olds are dating many. That's right. That's true. So I think it's probably just cumbersome. It's interesting.

But then some states have these mutual laws where, for instance, it's illegal to have sex under sixteen. In some states who 15 year olds would have sex, there are states where they would try to prosecute the boy in.

What are you there? Yeah.

And then many states have specific exclusions if both parties are minors.

Oh.

Because they can even get like when a seventh grader sends a nude picture and then another seventh grader forwards it, they can charge that seventh grader with trafficking or underage pornography, even though they're both minors. But but some states have an exclusion for if both people are minors and others don't.

That's interesting. As is predicted, California's eighteen. It is. That makes sense. And Georgia's sixteen. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, that holds it all makes sense. Michigan is. Also 16, yeah, that holds yeah. OK, so what's confusing about this is that he won after 10 years the overturn, like he finally got a court to look at the case, like it got upheld.

And then finally they're like, yeah, we're going to break this open, which is what's currently right.

OK, so that's kind of what I meant about his fortitude in that he saw it through to that end is what he said.

So after 10 years, we won. But then they said it doesn't really matter anymore. It's moot because he's dead. And he's like, no, it still matters because of the co-conspirators. So that's confusing because now they're still working on getting that coke. And I don't understand because they won, but really they didn't win.

Well, you know what's happening. I guess my understanding of it was he won a trial. Basically, he got to make his case. It didn't get upheld at some level.

I don't know if the Supreme Court or won under whatever it is. He finally got to a court that was like, yes, we're going to look at overturning this.

And if they overturn it, which they haven't done yet, OK, then they can go after all the co-conspirators. But currently they're still protected by that until it is overturned.

So it's not overturned. Correct. But I felt like he was saying that it's being heard and that's where it's going. OK, I was a little confused on those details. OK, so Prince Andrew said that picture isn't real.

OK, well, it looks real to me. It looks really real and everyone in it says it's real.

And that's for you, Professor of Digital Forensics and image analysis at UCLA. Oh, I'm going to trust this.

I know you are. Yeah. He said the picture is not manipulated.

You said you said he was a UCLA professor. Yeah, professor. Oh, I did.

Yeah, OK. Because what he went there, he hangs out there. OK, he likes the commissary. Yeah.

Well, what kind of food do they have at the commissary. Nothing outstanding, but there was a cute little.

You know what, I don't know what your college experience was, what you lived on college campus. So you're probably walking across the whole thing. Anthro was all in like a very specific area of the campus, and I just drove there every day and then I drove back.

So there's probably some options that were good that I didn't even know about. Got it. There was just a cute little cafe by all of our buildings that I'd go in and have a little treat. But I was in such a budget I couldn't really eat at those places.

I guess what we had was check for get the fuck out at the University of Georgia. Yeah, what a joke. I know. And free tuition and free tuition.

What a joke, right? Oh, my gosh. Well, maybe free tuition for some.

I wonder, though, if they're a little taste of the chicken sales is so great that they were offsetting the tuition expense. They probably were. Yeah, there was huge line every time, of course.

Yeah. But it moves fast. We're in it. How many times a week. Most days. Most this is before. Yeah.

This before that they were anti LGBTQ.

OK, so this professor this professor's superfood, this professor's first commissary diet.

OK, he said the lighting from the flash shows no inconsistencies with a strong cast shadow with a strong cash shadow for the figures. This is all talk I don't know much about.

It's very technical jargon. Esoteric. Yeah.

You also scratch your tongue in the middle of it. Like I want to know if you can walk the listeners through what happened. You got a mouthful there. You didn't get one of the words out, so you appeared from my angle to scratch your tongue really abruptly. And then you said it again and by God, it worked.

So what happened? It was a play by play with a cat hair on your tongue.

I could go in my mouth. Oh, you, Justin, your gun.

I took my gum out very quickly. Oh, it looked like you just scratched your tongue really quick.

Like, I just watch, you know, the the word from the movie superfluid supercalifragilistic xbla that sort of look like happen.

Give your tongue a quick spread.

Oh my God.

What if I could do that. Well, it seemed to me in really quickly I was like, oh, she's experiencing some numbness of her tongue, some paralysis, and she wants to bring it back online with a little little quick jab of pain. Wake everything back up and get it online.

Yeah, I can't believe that was you taking your gum out of your mouth.

It looks so much like you scratched your tongue.

I can't believe it wasn't clear what was happening. Not at all. I was so glad you brought it up because you would have just thought I was doing something crazy. I'm glad about that.

And then I'm also, of course, glad about your reaction, because I thought it was at great risk that I pointed it out because I didn't know if you're going to get embarrassed. I think he did get embarrassed.

But it's making you laugh is a good outcome. I'm not embarrassed, scratching my tongue would have been embarrassing, but taking my all my fucking time, taking my gum out is normal. That's very normal.

Yeah. Oh OK. So so he points out it's unlikely Andrew's head or body could have been spliced into the picture. He said it can be difficult to get the body poses just right when splicing two people together. The fact that the two figures are so seamlessly and closely placed next to each other suggests that this is unlikely to be a full body splice of Prince Andrew.

Also, first of all, what a waste of time that anyone had analyzing. Secondly, you know, here's what happens with that photo expert he looks at. It looks real to me. It's like now I got to come up with some reasons why.

And I think he's clutching at straws. Know the shadow of their body transfer would have the telltale signs of a not fair digital shimmer drop down shadow of a three percent or greater.

He looked at it like, this shit's real. I know.

But there's also stuff we don't know about that a forensics digital expert knows.

And we are nearing a time where it'll be indistinguishable. Yeah. You know, they'll be able to do my face and my voice was like that. I just needs this show. There's, what, three hundred hours of us talking.

There'll be plenty enough for them to build. Well, that's like that.

Deep fakes yawn or they put celebrity faces on other people's bodies. I've never seen it, but I understand Kristen's one.

Yeah, she is. That's flattering. No. Yeah. I mean it's assault.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Also I don't think anyone's put my face on anything. I guess that's what I'm saying. I feel left out even though if I got included a yellow salt. But I'm now I'm on the outside.

I see. You understand. I do. I do. I do. Here's another like just it is what it is difference between men and women for obvious reasons, for very obvious reasons.

But ain't no guy in the world if he found out a woman had masturbate to anything of him like him talking on a talk show picture of him. OK, I got to imagine it in the high.

Ninety nine percent guys would just be flattered.

And I get it. I know the difference.

I know that we're aggressive and predatory and all that stuff. But with that said, it is interesting how drastic the difference is. Right?

Because I'd say ninety eight percent of women would be horrified to think of a man masturbating to an image of them that they didn't know.

Yeah, it's just one of these really stark differences between men and women. Again, with the power structure. Context makes sense. Yeah, but it's so stark.

Yeah, that's true. Going to be like who who jerked off thinking to me, well, listen, I think many girls, if they knew a guy saw them and thought like, oh she's pretty or oh I like her, everyone likes that.

But it's it's once it starts getting into this like sexual perversion, secrecy, no consent power. I am I just want to be clear as day.

I am not defending it. I'm only saying any guy I know would be like so who walked off thinking of me.

You'd have their interest in a good way I think is also just because sheer numbers like women, I don't think I mean, some people might, but I don't think women generally like see a video and then are like, I have to masturbate right this second, like I have no control over my body and I have to write like they may make the choice to look.

I think both things are true. I think a high percentage of women don't watch pornography or are visually stimulated the way guys are. But but also there's a good amount of women who watch pornography.

Oh, no, I don't even mean I don't mean porn. Oh, OK. I'm talking about like you're saying, like watching someone on like a talk show.

Yeah.

Yeah. Boys, boys, boys, boys, boys, boys, boys, that's all. That's everything. Yeah, OK, so it appears that the photo is real. Yes. And we're unclear about this decision in the court case.

And we'll let you know about this doctor's diet tikka masala diet.

And I don't think people know the context for that, not that they would care, but there's been to this doctor's diets that I don't think we've ever really had. We not gone into it.

So, oh, it started a couple of years ago when I did this doctor's first superfood cleanse. That's right. And all I got was broccoli and spinach for a week. And by the way, this doctor is DACs. That's right. Yeah. There are a lot of scrutiny at the home about whether or not this doctor superfood first superfood cleanse was good. That's right. Mainly by me. Skeptic's. You were very skeptical. Yeah, but then this doctor came out with another diet called, what was it called, this doctor's worst superfood cleanse.

Right.

And it was all the junk food I made all in my 20s. Yeah, that was fun.

That was way more fun than the first superfood.

And we had about six meals. Yeah, it was delicious. It was still in heavy rotation.

And now this. Doctors take your Teka Marsella, right. Vietnam and these in that are going to be real.

They'll be my challenge here. You're overcoming them. Yeah. Vietnamese. Yeah. I mean, yes. That sounds really wrong. That's exactly right. Vietnamese.

Yeah. Now I'm getting in my head about it because Vietnamese. Yeah.

Vietnamese don't know. OK, so next time I get.