Welcome, welcome, welcome to armchair expert I'm DAX Shepard, I'm joined by Monica Modde, man. Hi, how are you doing?

Great. How are you doing?

Great. You look great in all green. Your Monika's and all green.

Is it green Bill Gates, his favorite color or did I make that up? You must be right because they say that green is genius's favorite color. My favorite color is really blue but I'll often lie and say it's green because I know that about genius's.

Yeah sure. It's my second favorite after blue. Yeah, it's probably my second after purple.

Oh my gosh. Purple. Not a popular favorite color. That's why I like it. Yeah. That's that holds.

Well today we have an outstandingly talented performer, Leslie Odom Jr.. Leslie Odom Jr. is a Tony Award winning and Grammy Award winning actor and singer. He has performed on Broadway and in television and film. He has released three jazz albums. Now, most importantly, let's just get to it, Hamilton, which is currently streaming on the Disney Plus app. It's incredible if you were unable to see this musical. I don't like musicals and this is one of two musicals I absolutely love.

It's so good. And Leslie is so tremendous in it, playing Aaron Burr. So if you weren't able to go see it live, I do urge everyone to check it out on Disney. Plus, he also is in Harriott. He was in Smash Murder on the Orient Express. And you can see Leslie currently on Central Park, the greatest cartoon on television for which she just got nominated for an Emmy. So congratulations, Leslie. His new album is entitled Mister Just Anmar.

That's All You Need.

So check out his new album. Please enjoy.

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He's in our chat.

Check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check, check your check. Cashing a check.

Put it in the bank. Save some money for your honey. Check that, guys. Check all our singers.

You always start off singing. Well, I want I want Leslie's approval obvious.

I got it right here. All right. Let me just start you off with a compliment. You're ready. So I told my wife I got to go a little early today. I don't normally do it this early. And she said, Who are you interviewing? And I said, Leslie Odom Jr.. And she said, he isn't not sexy.

I figured the roundabout, that roundabout compliment, that color that is coming from the side, it's like a diagonal, you know what I mean? Yeah.

You're not not.

Yeah, well, I said, hey, well, I just learned about him and I saw his wife. So yeah, if, if you guys want to be lifestyle, I think we're all in, I think just based visually only we're up for it. We're down.

I have to say I've known your wife a long time and I was thinking about is super excited about coming here to talk to you in this way. But thinking about my relationship with Kristen, she was the first person that I know. You know what this is like. She was the first person that I knew that I could see on a billboard. Right, right.

Right, right, right. Because you guys are roughly the same age. Right, right.

And when you're coming up, like when somebody when somebody blows, when somebody starts to go, like, that is a thing, you know, it's just a thing you remember.

And she was the first she was the first person. And we didn't you know, we weren't like tight.

But we knew each other and we had worked together. And I remember she had that Lifetime movie. That was the thing that, you know, she played when she had the custody of her siblings or whatever.

And, yeah, we were working together.

And then I don't know, what is it like a year or two later she's on a billboard and then like, it feels like six months a year later, she's Veronica Mars.

And it was like, it's a big thing. The first person that, you know, the blues, that it's wind in your sails, you're like, oh, that's just a normal human.

I know this human. So, wow, maybe I can do this. Right.

It's that. It's that. And it's also like somewhat like Invasion of the Body Snatchers or something. It's like somebody gets snatched, they get like they get plucked from the group and then they're like away. They're like gone. Yeah. So after she's Veronica Mars, we kind of don't reconnect for like seven, eight years, like she's really gone, you know, and that's through no fault of her, you know, that's not.

How about her? It's just like she's fucking busy and she's very, very famous.

But yeah, it's it's really I think she was the first she said you had a top pony of dread when she was nineteen and she said you were killing it. She said it was it was working and all the ways.

That's right. I did. I had I had that was in my my dreadlock phase. I loved my dreads man.

You know, this is I would not have had them now because it's clearly labeled cultural appropriation. But in high school, I had them in eleventh grade. And I got to say, my favorite hairdo, because you're done, you wake up, you're done. There it is. That's what it's going to look like. You might throw it in a ponytail, but other than that, there's nothing to think about. I dug it.

It worked for me until it didn't anymore. And then I remember shaving it off and how free that felt to like, you know, how liberating that was to like, be bald.

Yes. Yes. So I got in big trouble. I got in trouble at school and my mom said, I've got to punish you. What can't I punish you with? And I said, well, I think if you tell me I can't go on road trips, I'll probably move out and get an apartment if you tell me X, Y and Z. And she goes, OK, so that's it. That's the lesson. I said, yeah, that's the lesson.

She said, OK, get rid of those dreadlocks. It's like, oh shit, I didn't think you'd be through it. Tell me to cut my hair off as a punishment. But she was so cool that I had to respect that. So she cut it all off. Yeah. And I remember dip in my head and water and going like, oh my God, I haven't felt my scalp in a year. Right.

Yeah. I might grow back just to cut them off again. Just like that.

Yeah. That felt good to talk about.

You know, you have a little girl right. You have three year old and. Yeah.

And you know how you're kind of always trying to teach them like forward thinking, delayed gratification like this is something you're supposed to work on and that would be the ultimate stepping delayed gratification if you spent three years doing something for a three minute sensation.

There are people that do that, though, right? Like the people that grow those flowers that only bloom once every whatever. You know, there are people that that do that, that. Oh, yeah. In their life, their life is about that foreplay, you know, it's like.

Yeah.

And I was just listening to when Nicollet found out I was coming on your show, she was super excited. Her her favorite episode of all the shows she's listening to is the one you did. I forget the woman's name, but the one you did with that brilliant relationship expert.

Oh, Sister Esther Paral.

Yeah. Yeah, she's perfect.

She's she's the Jedi. Of relationships, sexuality, eroticism. Yeah, I loved what she said, and I really related to it because in a lot of ways, when she equated eroticism with aliveness, right? Yes.

Yes. A zest for life. Right. It's the same sensation that I get, like, when this thing that I do, when it feels right, when it feels the best, it feels like there's an eroticism, there's seduction, there's a you know, there's a chase. It's yeah. It's exciting in that way.

Let's drill into it a little bit for me, too. And this isn't a great characteristic, but I need a plausible threat of annihilation to enjoying myself.

So my hobbies are like motorcycles off road racing and then comedy, which is like you step out there and it's like manic and go either way and any night. And there's something about the stakes that the heightened sense of it. Right. That wakes me up and makes me very present.

Is that like what happens with you? One hundred percent makes me very present. And, you know, I have been annihilated like I'm sure you have. There have been those your performances, those moments that did not go well. And so I never take it for granted.

I just finished a movie last week and over the Russia. It's such a crazy story.

But we shot this whole movie, entire movie at the top of the year, January, February, you know, before everything went down. And then in New Orleans, Regina King's directorial debut, beautiful script about this true story. When Cassius Clay fought the first heavyweight championship bout, nobody expected him to win that as a white dude. What was his name? He was known he was a black dude. Oh, people think he was white because he was kind of the white people's champ as well.

I think I was thinking of, like, Sonny Liston or something or that's what it is. Oh, OK. Sonny Liston. Oh, my God. So Sonny Liston is. Oh, my God, bro. Some layer of racism just got exposed to me. But I guess I think I just remember he he did knock out some great white. Yes. Right. And then that kind of shut people up. OK, so. Yeah, but Sonny was black.

And so anyway, when Cassius testified, nobody thinks that he's going to win. So there's no victory party planned in Miami and in nineteen sixty four. And so he spends the evening hanging out with his pals in a motel room, you know, and his pals just happened to be Malcolm X, Sam Cooke and Jim Brown. Oh my God. And we know that it happened because the FBI was following Malcolm. So there are notes, you know, you know Malcolm X goes into a seedy hotel room with they called Sam Cooke like black soul singer or something like didn't even use his name on it to me.

Sam could be Sam Cooke would be shot.

This whole movie in Newark had a wonderful experience, but we had a scene that happens at the Fountain Blue and they couldn't kind of replicate it in New Orleans. So they were like, well, we'll shoot that scene in L.A. So like a week after we finish in New Orleans, we will shoot that in L.A. and then we'll be done and then covid happens. And so we've been waiting for four months to to have two days of shooting on this movie.

I was bringing it up because, like, literally when they said that's a wrap and I felt that tension leave my stomach, I was like, I've been tense since I got this job. Like somewhere in my body. I've been holding tension. Yeah. All of these months.

Where can we go back to one thing, Jim Brown, did you get to meet him for this movie? We didn't.

He's the only one of the fellas that's still alive. And no, we didn't we didn't meet him. But I felt like, you know, Alice Aldis Hodge, please, Jim Brown. And, you know, so I feel like I met him throughout this. But no, we didn't get to meet we didn't get to meet him because you sang at the Super Bowl in twenty eighteen.

And I want to say, was that Minneapolis? Yeah, that's right. OK, so I was there and then Jim Brown was there and I got to meet him and I read this amazing book, Conversations with Jim Brown. And I went up to and I said, man, what a fucking honor the way he did it.

I mean, he should be on the Mount Rushmore just the way he told the line, the way he helped other people, the way he spoke out, the resolve, the you know, the strength, what a beast he was.

I mean, just incredible, exceptional, exceptional man and cashes, you know, when we meet catches in this movie, you know, he's a kid. He's the little brother of all those guys, you know what I mean? But, yeah, what a lion he turned out to be. And a force for change and good. And a man, a king brashest.

Why are you playing cashes in this?

God, no, I play Sam.

Oh, awesome. And do you sing a Sam Cooke song? What song? I sing a bunch of the songs that we the cheaper ones because Jody Klein owns all those rights.

Jody Klein's dad was Sam Cooke's last manager and so it through a turn of events. Jody Klein's dad owns all Sam's music. So Jody is one of the producers. And so, yeah, we sing all the all the hits actually all the stuff that's due.

What was that like.

Terrifying. OK, yes. I mean, terrifying being. Because I remember after Hamilton, I was at a party and leader, I don't know if you remember even, but Lee Daniels, I saw him at a at a party at Lee looked at me and said, Do you want to play Sammy Davis Jr. for for HBO with me?

And I said, No, sir, I don't like you in that moment because it was only like, God, I love Sammy Davis Jr. and I love Marvin. I love these cats. You know, these guys have learned so much, but because of Hamilton, I got to finally be the best version of myself.

Yeah, well, I would compare it right to like Jim Carrey's big breakthrough. I think he was he was doing standup for maybe 15 years and he was doing impressions. And at some point, you know, he's like, I'm not going to become my own thing if I keep doing this.

That's what it was. It was like at this moment, I could be a wack Sammy Davis Jr. or I could be an amazing Leslie Odom Jr.. I'm choosing that, you know. Yeah, but when Regina comes to you with this, you know, with this amazing script and, you know, and it wasn't just a straight ahead biopic this one night in Miami, you know, it's about this night with these guys and like and the conversation that camp has them having in this room is the conversation that we're having in the streets.

Essentially, you know, it's about, you know, does capitalism work? Can you put a black face on capitalism and say that that's progress? Malcolm is about divesting. He's left. It doesn't matter how much money you have, Sam, like your people are still being oppressed and you're a part of that system. And Sam is, of course, like I'm a black owned business. I put money in black people's pockets.

You are a ward of the state. You'd be like, yeah, yeah.

And so, yeah, the conversation that they're having, it was too good to pass up, but it was terrifying also in the room when it happened.

I know I recently just watched a clip that circulated. It was a clip of Louis Farrakhan and I watch it and I, I remember seeing that clip of Louis Farrakhan in the 90s and thinking, right, oh, this guy wants to, like, obliterate this country.

You know, he wants the whole thing to crumble.

And then I'm watching it with today's eyes and I'm like, that's where that motherfucker said every single day is now acknowledging like redlining and steering people away from real estate and all this stuff and inherited wealth and all that stuff.

Man, he was saying in, I don't know, ninety one and it seemed radical. And now it seems like, oh my God, he was so honest.

I know you look at you look at what Malcolm was saying, it's the same thing, you know, even even Martin. Right. We saw at the beginning of this whole uprising in the streets and the pandemic and stuff, you know, but especially with the uprising, you know, you hear a certain a certain section of society pining and longing for Martin Luther King. That's the way you protest. You know that you do it like that. Nonviolent protest is the way.

Right. And at a level that sounds good. But then you have to remember, well, they killed Martin, too.

Yeah, they followed him. They recorded everything he did. OK, so it's not like we can go to the nursing home where Martin is at ninety three or however old old he'd be and talk to him. You know, how, how did you win. How it happen. The brothers dead. You know they murdered Martin too and not for nothing. The last brother we saw that was trying nonviolent protest was Colin Kaepernick. That's exactly.

Yeah, that's what non-violent protest looks like. And we have, you know, the person in the highest office of the land get the son of a bitch is off the field. So that's that's what you do when it's non-violent. So you got to take your pick, you know. Yeah. Yeah. What you want is for you to be able to see us coming.

Bottom line is, I hate to say this, but if you don't listen at the peaceful protest, you know, Kabban act if he's doing that and he has the entire attention of the country on him, and if that doesn't get the conversation going in the right direction, you got to pursue another.

What do people have left? Yeah. And I mean, that's that's the language of young people, you know, so I wasn't out in the streets burning things down, but I understand where that comes from. And we have distant history and we have not so distant histories to show the way this country has treated non-violent protesters as well. Yeah. So this is the moment, you know, you've got to really deal with this once and for all. Yeah.

Now, let me ask you a provocative question. Was part of the Sammy Davis knowing you're like now? So definitely you want to be your own voice, which makes total sense. But also, if I'm you and I compare Sam Cooke to Sammy and by the way, I say this with great compassion because Malcolm Gladwell has this awesome podcast, Revisionist History, and he does a whole episode on Sammy Davis. And it's called Like The Weight of the Token or something like that.

There you go.

It's about being the first person through the door and what the first person has to endure. And I mean, it all culminates with the most chilling roast by all of his friends, right, on NBC primetime. And they're dropping the N bomb and they're talking about lynching them. And I mean. These are his friends that and you just get the weight of what the token is to be the token person in the room, and I just if I'm you, I don't want to play the token.

I want to play. I said fuck you out of, like, as just I want to play, you know what I'm saying? Was any of that in the mix?

That's a great question and super provocative I worthy question. Go no.

I'll say I had to take responsibility Soheir confession from me. You know, I remember when I came to L.A., you know, this is the Oscars through the 90s, but it wasn't the 90s. But it was it was with the 90s sensibility because that's when I came up watching TV.

Right. So I came to L.A. to make TV and I was a practical kid. And so I had only ever seen tokens.

Right, right, right, right.

Hollywood was really functioning in that way at that time. This is pre Shonda Rhimes and ICRA and Lena Waithe and all the Donald Glover. This is before all the all these brilliant people. So, you know, Hollywood really was functioning in that way. And yet you could still do it with integrity. I came not to tap dance, you know, not to make a fool of myself or, you know, bring shame to my family or my people, nothing like that.

But I was kind of I knew that I was going to be on some poster and be the only black guy on that poster.

Guaranteed. Yeah. Unless they reboot Sanford and son. Yeah, you're. That's right. Like, I was going to be on some ABC show and be the black guy different, right?

Yeah.

You know, so I only came to L.A. to work my way back to New York because I was like, what's the quickest way to become this Broadway thing? That that's where my heart is. You know, that's that's what you see when you watch the Disney plus thing. I mean, that is what I was sort of born to do. But I also knew, like, I can't get those parts until I'm famous. And so, like, let me go to L.A. and get famous that I can get those parts out.

So I came here sort of signing up for that, like signing up to be the black guy on the poster to be the token. Now, having lived it, you know, I know firsthand the pain of that.

I was the black guy on Smash, you know, on that NBC show that it was the same system as it's always been.

And I remember there was a writer in Vulture, so they were doing a recap of the show. And, you know, Smash like coined the term hate watching. Everybody was only watching that show to hate on it. Right. So like to tweet about it and talk about how ridiculous it was. And so there was a really funny recap that she would do every week and just just skewer the show. And Boy named me Token.

Oh, wow. She named me Token.

How that feel. How that feels. Oh, I'll tell you how it felt. It was painful. I had to take responsibility for it because on some level that is what I signed up for all those years ago. So it was ten years. You feel me. It's like, oh yeah. What, what? I came to L.A. on some level, accepting or seeking found its way to me or I found my way to it.

I'll just add you're not naive. So on some level, yes, I agree with you. But on another level, no, dude, you're not the fucking architect of the system, so there's really no responsibility for you to take on.

You're not the architect until you have a moment to change it. Yes, yes, yes. When you've got the leverage and you don't, then that's a whole other thing to wrestle with.

That's what we're talking about, you know. So we're talking with all these systems, bro. Like, that's what we had to reckon with, with me, too. That's what we have to reckon with. Me, too, is the same way. It's like, you know, what I'm fuckin waiting for is the guy that's going through this to go to a fucking couch, sit down with a fucking psychiatrist.

I'm at my cursing more than any get out and pull back the layers of rape culture and toxic masculinity. And like this is what I've been looking at. Your Bill Cosby, when he came up, there were ads for for roofies in the back of the magazines he was reading in the backs of the magazines you were reading.

They would have ads for the things you could put in a woman's drink or Spanish fly.

I remember when I was a kid, that's what I the Spanish fly was always.

And that's code. Yeah. Like you're going to make some girl horny with this pill.

It is at some point. The same is true with racism. Like at some point you have to commit to getting well, you have to admit that you're sick, that you're fucked, that you're ill and you have to commit to getting well. You have to do the work and go, this is the water we've been swimming in. God, we are. We're sick.

Can I add one thing? This thing is set up to not allow for that. And I'll tell you why I think so is the side that's leading the charge and God bless them. So glad they are. Some faction of that side is more interested in retribution persay than growth. So the stakes are very fucking high. Right.

So for the guy to come out and say, you know what, I am a. I grew up in a culture where the worst thing you could be as a boy was a girl, you go to school. If you were a fucking girl, you were exiled. OK, so over 18 years of hearing the worst thing in the world, you could be as a girl. Yeah, guess what? You feel superior to girls and that blows. And that is how we were indoctrinated.

Yes. But if I'm going to admit that and say, let me now work on that, you can't also take away my entire life, because if the stakes are my life vanishes, then guess what? I'm not going to probably own up to it. And I'll say the same thing is with racism, like the notion that there's racists are not racist, you're a Nazi or you're fucking I don't even know who the most liberal white person is, but.

No, no, no, no, no. I'm a fucking three out of 10. Right. At best, that's maybe the best I could hope to be on the racist scale is the three out of ten from how I grew up in this system. So. But does that make any sense to you? Like, there's got to be.

I love what you're saying. I love what you're saying. But I and I don't agree. Like, you know, there's no danger of you losing your life, using losing your in any way.

Like if you really want to talk about it, like maybe you're talking about like, oh, my grandkids will have a little less than I do. Nobody's come in and take your shit. I'm like a little white guy. You're a white guy.

I was married to Joy Bryant on TV and she said it's always White Boy Day. What are you talking about here?

Like nobody's coming and take your money. Nobody's coming to take your opportunities like you're good until you die.

Like if you're here on this planet, if you're here now, if if anything you're talking about, you know, if you decide to fight for for more equality and justice and equality for people that don't look like you. Yeah, the world might look a little different for your grandkids, meaning they might have to.

I'm not talking about you now, but they might have to actually compete, compete. They might actually be competent instead of just being handed shit because they're white, like, you know, that's the fucking price you take. But here's the good news. You'll leave them a shitload of money. You're going to leave them a lot more than my parents left me. You're going to leave them the house and the dwelleth you've accumulated. You know, black people are so far behind because, you know, there's been no fucking hand at our four head.

Yeah.

You know, to accumulate property, like blatantly excluded policy in writing. Excluded for sure.

But if you're a white person and you're here fighting for justice, it is not going to affect your personal life while you're here. You're fighting for your kids.

And I guess I'm just saying I don't know how, but I've eked out this little existence where I can say that I can say I'm a three and I know I know times I've been a three.

Right. Because I'm just I'm unaware now I can say I'm a three. And for some reason that won't have much fallout. But I got to imagine, like, if Tom Hanks comes out and says, like, I think I'm a or racist. Sure. I don't know if he's fearful.

That will have a huge impact on whether he works again or not.

But I see what you're saying that it won't I won't affect not if there's a follow up of I'm a four and I'm working to be a zero. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's no fall out. Yeah. Oh, fall out like like yeah.

If you're a nine and you're like and I'm staying and that's, that's with Tanso Culture Comedy and I'm trying to end before I write about what you should be cancelled if that's your reality.

That's what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the man who's accused of like treating women poorly or doing these things privately and being like, oh, my God, and dealing with that. Here you get to you've created a platform for yourself. Thank God. I'm so and I'm curious to see, like, if you feel like it's made you a better person, all these hours of conversations with people.

But, you know, if you are willing to work on it, there's no such you willing to have conversation.

And by the way, it requires friendships, right, where you trust the person. So Joy Bryant has defeated me in like four epic racial debates and one of them being I'll give you an example. Tell me I just fucking hated Chris Brown, a I'm in love with Rihanna. So that's part of it, right? We all are. Come on.

And then and then my mom was beat by a husband. I witnessed that. So I have my own particular distaste for that. And so I was going on about fucking Chris Brown. I want a piece of shit is and how I'd love to fight them and. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Enjoys like, you know. Do you feel that way about this actor. And she names a white actor who's been found guilty of spousal abuse. Then she names another one and another one and all of a sudden I go, oh my God, you're right.

I mean that's objectively the exact same thing. And yet I am very able to label Chris Brown a monster or a bad guy or evil in most certainly a part of it. Is he black? That has this could be the only explanation.

Can I give you one tiny in your on your. I'm on joy side, I want to say, because nobody's going to cancel me, but I'm going to give you a tiny bit for your defense the next time you guys get into in the fight.

Well, it was like the only difference was got Rihanna so tired of talking about this and going, I love like God, I love that, you know, I love what she's built.

But I'll say this and I'll put it down. I relate it to the me too thing to the only thing that was different was when we saw that picture.

That's that's what I was funny enough. That's what I was hanging the entire argument after she got me feelin differently. I'm like, yeah, I saw the pictures, dude. And it was it was gnarly. You know, she had been attacked.

And I was like when we heard about it, what we all pictured was like, you know, what is it right into it to get off them for a second, like to go to me to move on? It was like without calling names, you know, all of us, when you when you hear about these guys going down, you're like, oh, come on, what do you say? Like you said, you had a nice top on or whatever, and you're like, oh, you gave out sex toys for Christmas.

Oh, OK.

Oh my bad. Like I. Wait, wait. You jerked off in a plant.

Wait like so we went you.

It was so much worse because we're conditioned to protect people we love.

Well white men well and black folks in the black community they protected Arkley too long. They protected. Yeah. I think it's a parent. This is my armchair theory on it is like we all have parents that are flawed and we love them.

And we we get practice that making excuses for these people we love. And then so now, now we love Bill Cosby and he's kind of our dad too. And for a while we're pretty good at like we've been down this road. You know, my dad does have a temper and da da da da da. I think we're pretty we're pretty conditioned to forgive people we love for his behavior because our parent, Chris Brown, you know, higher.

Yes. Yes. And so with the white guys doing the exact same thing, my point is we're a little more conditioned to be like that's probably a little more gray. Yes. Than it is with the with the black eye and the benefit of the doubt. You somehow get the benefit of the doubt.

And I think part of it, it is the pictures which ties into the whole system in general, which is media.

The media is more likely to be like this black guy is bad. These white guys, we're not going to show pictures of like, you know, so it's all still part of this whole system where this is bad. This is maybe not so bad.

It's true because she pointed out, I think, that there was a picture of like Charlie Sheen's thing. There was a picture of his lady. And I had seen it. Sure.

And yet it wasn't equal. You know, I have to admit, it was in my mind it wasn't equal. And that's why you're three.

Not exactly a three. Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

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You know, raising this girl, I was struck, too, when hearing some of those stories, Louise Story or Charlie Rose's story or who's the other one? The brilliant brother, the comedian. Yeah.

Yeah, Azeez, that flicks right. Hearing those stories. And now some of those stories were about physical violence. Right. Where about someone overpowered you. So we're not talking about that. And that is that is something that men have to deal with man to man. Like you've got to deal with, like what has brought you to the place where you were overpowering another human being and imposing your will on them? Yeah, that's colonialism. That's some evil, wicked shit.

Yeah. Yeah. But some of those situations were just that, you know, we have to have these conversations with our young women, with our girls, because some of them were literally you did not feel in your body enough, you did not feel enough agency in your body to get up off a couch and walk out a door. Like the only thing that stopped you from the psychological harm that was inflicted upon you was your willingness, your ability to stand up and walk out the door.

And that is that is true of anybody, you know, because the power dynamics. Oh, yeah. Sometimes they're if they're physical. Right. Like we're seeing, you know, the police departments, they are the most violent arm of white supremacy. But there's what happens in education and what happens in banks and what happens in real estate. There's lots of ways that the system. Oh, yeah, it's set up. So the same is true of, you know, the way we raise our young women.

You walk out the door, you know, there's a long history of you won't be believed, the police won't take it seriously. If they do, they're going to give you basically a gynecological exam at a police station. You don't want that. This person's probably going to end your career. The physical disparity, the sexual dimorphism that my wife will point out, she's like, you know, I get in an elevator all the time and the person in the elevator is literally two times my size.

Imagine you got in an elevator and there was a guy that was seven foot six in four hundred pounds.

You're aware of your vulnerability? That's right. That's right.

And I certainly want to raise because I'm not a woman. And yet I've had experiences where, you know, the thing that stopped me from being taken advantage of in some way was the fact that I as a man have been raised to be in my body, to own my voice, to to own my yes and my no. And like there's times that I say no. And it's sometimes it's hard and they'll call me names as I'm walking out the door, you know, they say names at my back.

But but I got out I got out the door. And some of those situations were just somebody that that did not feel powerful enough. They didn't feel like they could get up and walk out the door. And I don't want that for my kid. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

We had a conversation before she was like to know was, of course, one of the first words she learned. And so the family, the family was doing this thing where they'd ask her and Lucy, can I have a hug? And she'd know. And then, oh, you know, they come and give her a hug at least. Can I have a kiss? No. And they'd give her a kiss. And me and my wife talked about it one day, late one night.

We like we need to talk to our family. Yeah. And we need to tell them that when she says no, you have to respect that. If you ask her and she says no. Yeah.

Oh, but we had one where I kicked myself for like three weeks, which is we were at this person's house and he wanted to give our daughter a hug goodbye. And and she didn't want to. And then he then he basically said, like, in so many words, I'll give you this thing, can I have a hug? And then I was just kind of observing and not thinking of the the terrible pattern I just cosigned on. And then we left and I was like, oh, my God, man.

I should have said, like, no, dude, you're not teaching her to exchange her affection for some fucking object. But, you know, it's just happening. So there you go.

It's like I, of course, think I'm the type of person that I would have done something, but I was, I guess, afraid to make everything awkward and blah, blah, blah. And then I was like, going forward, I got to I got to intervene. I got to stand up.

But, you know, you've got to learn to live there, you know. Exactly. That's why those experiences are there. Look, what a tiny experience that you had to learn. A big old you know, that was the experience we had. We let it go on for a little bit. And then we had like, OK, we need to put a stop to it, you know, so they're there so that we can write the small lesson in bold print.

You know, first of all, this has been so fucking fun, but I must insist we promote you as the brilliant star that you are now.

Hamilton, I just watch it. Let me first say I cannot stand musicals.

My wife and I could not be further apart in our interest. Right. I'm like, I don't get it. They're singing their emotions to one another. Whatever. I have like two musicals in my life. I loved Book of Mormon and I saw Hamilton in New York and I was fucking blown away. I was blown away on so many levels. Just the fact that he got that whole book into that musical is impossible. But it was done. And then you guys were so outrageously great.

And then we watched, of course, it on Disney plus a couple of.

Ago and this is a question I wanted to ask you, did they record that in one night or was that multiple shows that they cut to two nights, two nights and then a couple of days of pickups of like close ups and stuff?

OK, so I'm like, you know, some of these people had to have gone home thinking that was one of their worst shows.

Oh, yeah. And it was just informative as a fellow performer. I'm like, everyone was brilliant these times. I think I sucked. I probably did it the times. I thought I was great. I was probably just as good as I sucked. I just wonder, like what what your personal experience is like, how the show can differ, even though for us probably we can't see it.

The writing is king on Broadway anyway. So like, you know, you get a great piece of writing and you just really have to get out of the way as an actor. So I write it like that's all in my two Bibles.

My Old Testament to my New Testament for this show were Lynn script, of course, and David Mamet's true and false. Oh, David Mamet's true and false was so instructive to me doing this show. Tell me why it's a book on acting. Oh, OK. True and false is a is a book on acting. And essentially his theory is that I like that actors can only fuck things up. And the only thing you can do as an actor is to say the lines that the author has written loud enough so that the audience can hear.

I like that. And it was a one page book. Yes.

They said when you are doing my plays, make sure they're heard and get off the American stage like the right. Wow. So but the follow up behind that is essentially, listen, if something comes up for you, if my writing inspires something in you, don't stop that.

Yeah, but all he's saying is don't walk on the stage imposing your will on my writing. Oh, if you're not feeling anything, don't do anything. If you're not feeling anything, just say my words. Listen, and I'm on stage with David Diggs and Philip and Lynn Benwell and Rene Alesco.

I mean, Anthony Ramas. I mean, give me a break. Like, there's a whole there's a whole lot here for me that really all I have to do is turn to my left and look and I'm inspired. And so that that is the way I was working in that show. Like just whatever comes up, I don't deny. And if I don't feel anything, I don't do anything.

That's great. Great advice.

Yes, but you got you've got it right. As you can imagine, you've been through negotiations before. So the day before the movie, we were still in negotiations of whether I was going to do the movie because the movie had been announced that they they were filming the show that had been announced.

But no one had called my agent to, like, ask if I wanted to. Do, you know, I'm our agent as a company, you know, you feel me.

It was like it was assumed that we wanted to do the movie and that we would do it for a certain number. And all this stuff was assumed. And mind you were a week before the contracts end. OK, so it's like the wonderful thing about what's happening in the streets is it has opened the door for more honest conversation like the one we're having right now. Yeah. So four years ago when I was negotiating that contract, let me say this, my favorite quote that's come out of the streets from this movement is that America is lucky.

Black people are not looking for revenge. We're looking for equality.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're not looking for revenge.

And I'll say the reason why it resonated with me is because of my personal experience and all the black people that I've ever known like that really is what we're fighting for. They came to me with an offer. And you know what, Leslie? We're shooting tomorrow. And I'm like, here's the thing.

Here's the thing. This is it. This is my area of expertise. This all I have. This is my life's work on the stage, too. Right. And so I just can't sell it away from magic beans. Like, I can't I can't give it away. Yeah.

Good for you. And so, like, you coming to me with this number, right? Yeah. So I can ask CAA, what does my white counterpart what does Aaron to make to do Greece live on TV? What do you make to do Greece. Yeah.

This is Hamilton live right. Yes, yes, yes. So when I found out what he made DAX, I didn't ask for a penny more. I didn't ask for one penny more. But I said, you must pay me exactly what that white boy got to do. Yeah, that's the bottom line.

That is about, you know, I love my my white liberal friends, you know, love white people. Right. But don't be in the streets talking about Black Lives Matter. If my black life doesn't matter, like essentially don't wait for the fucking cops to kill me before my black life matters. Yes. If my black life matters, make sure that I can take money home to feed my children.

A thousand percent. Side note I told Kristen Frozen three comes along. This is exactly what I want you to do. I want you to walk in with what Robert Downey Junior made for his franchise. I want you to walk in. What? I want you to walk. You have five. White males and what they made on their three billion dollar franchise and you say, I'll be taking this, and the thing is, you know, you want to talk to young people and talk about the power of you.

Yes. And, you know, and getting up off the couch and simply walking out the door, you have to it doesn't always work, right? Negotiations. I lose jobs sometimes. You know, the day before we shot that movie, I called out. I was not kidding. I was not coming to work the next day to the movie. You know, I was not kidding. It was a principle for me.

And sometimes it doesn't work out, you know, like, yeah, yeah. Sometimes they look at you and we're just not paying it and you have to go, that's OK.

For me it is consistently because in this capitalist society, white dudes have set the pace. I'm going, what is the comp, what is my counterpart making to do the same work? I just want the same thing.

I think there's this layer that happens with minorities and women where there is this sense that, like, they should be so grateful. Yeah, well, they shouldn't ask for more because they should be so grateful they're in this position that they're getting this much. This is a lot and not looking at. Yeah. The white counterpart or the male counterpart and saying they're doing the exact same thing or way less and getting way more. There's this like sense of you should have gratitude and it's so fucked.

Well said. There's a line in the in the brilliant Toni Morrison documentary, I think it's called Pieces of Me. It's brilliant. And she says she had to go to her fucking Toni Morrison. You know, she was an editor and she was you know, this is like the 80s, like the 70s, 80s.

You know, like you're going to be like, you know, what she was dealing with.

But she had to go in. She was a single mom and she walked in and she was like, I'm looking at all the editors. They're all white man. And like, this guy is getting this and I'm getting this.

Her boss said, oh, you know, what do you need that for? He's got a he's got a family. She's the head of household. He's a Bertoni.

I am head of household. End of conversation.

And he you know, she got her money. But, yeah, it's you know, it's really thinking of us. You know, sometimes we got to do a little work to get people to know that we're the same.

Yeah. And do you know you won the Tony you won a Grammy for that album. What's nice about that is it's like it at least it makes it objective a bit like this is a your ego going crazy.

It's like I have this accolade. This white dude has exactly his play. Was this successful? Ours was this successful. You know, tell me how that makes sense. Everybody's got their Achilles heel, right, so let's say mine is I always knew that since I was a kid, you know, like whenever I'm asking for justice or fairness, like the first thing that they do is like to say that I'm egotistical.

How we'll destroy you is will say that you're an asshole. We'll say that you're egotistical. Subtext, right.

Is cocky, is not a right is the things Monica just said.

I had to remind my friend, you know, my friend, the producer, just like you said, in the light of today, in the light of this context, I want you to go back and look at the letter that I wrote to you when we were talking about this. That was not my ego then. It is not my ego now. Yeah. What I was asking you for was parody that say it was never my ego, bro, I promise you.

Yeah.

Boy, that's it's it's embarrassing for all of us. OK, fixing it. Yeah, we're fixing it. I love your song. Go crazy. Hey, the video sexy Monica PKU.

You don't listen to the show, but that means listen, it's not not sexy. That's what I say. It's not men and it doesn't not give up you.

Now the woman in the video who's the woman in the video and her name is Jazz.

OK, so. So here's what I was thinking.

So I was like, this is tricky because you're married and you're married to an actress. Yeah. And if I'm you, I'm like, well, honey, see, this is like a sexy song about like single people. Like this isn't a song about married people. So I'm going to need to get some very attractive I got to build this thing over. I can see me making this case to my wife. And I'm just curious what we've had those conversations.

You know, we've been together 12 years and we've had to have those honest conversations, especially as success goes up and down for both of us and all that, all that kind of you know, we just really check in with each other and go, what is our expectation? And then we just have to have honest conversations about it. We had a conversation not too long ago because my wife is a brilliant actress and a brilliant singer.

And what I'm always trying to get her to understand is like, babe, you are always at the top of my mind. Like, Yes, I am never skipping past you, like, when it just I want her trust as a creator, like as a creator, like trust that if it's even remotely right for you, you're my woman like you're the. But yes. But if I'm not fighting for you, if I'm not advocating for you for a particular part or moment, it's just because I think that there's somebody more appropriate.

Well, I do.

I can give you the example, which is like I wrote this movie about my using years before I got sober. And it's like I'm not casting Kristen as one of these junkie gals I paled around with back then, like it's just not her sweet spot. So, you know, artistically, I would have to say this isn't the one for you.

Right. We've had to have those conversations. And it's interesting because you're in your video, you're playing Leslie Odom Jr.. So I just think it's more complicated. It is a little more complicated.

But we've had to you know, we've we've had to have those conversations, like in the Regino in the movie that we just wrapped up, a different actress was cast as my wife, Regina cast a different actress as my wife. When I read the script, I always thought that Nicollette would be great. Now, because of covid, that actress wasn't willing to come and finish the movie.

Right? So Regina called me like, oh, what are we going to do? I was like, well, you know, I happen to live with an actress.

I had to be quarantined with a great and we could be good. And so Nicollette ended up playing my wife and she's brilliant, beautiful. In this movie, she plays Sam Cooke's wife and this movie.

So, you know, like I'm trying to also use the evidence of our life, like, you know, that that helps me because it's like, babe, I promise you, when it's something that you're going to shine, we've come to it.

I said quarantine's been with men. The things we've learned about each other and the way we've grown in this thing is, you know, exceptional. It is it is a horrible trying time for so many so many of my friends feel their backs up against the wall. And, you know, it's like it's just the most of everything in quarantine right now. Like, it's the it's the most beautiful time and the most dreadful time and all of it. Right.

Yeah.

Can I ask a technical question about when you're doing a show like Hamilton, are you on vocal rest when you're not there?

I mean, you really got to protect your voice, right?

I was in some shows.

You do, but Hamilton was in every way that they experience in the project. Just just fit me like a glove, you know, wasn't written out of my range. It was something that I, I had to take care of myself and I was happy to take care of myself.

Is it less stressful to be like rapping? A lot of it is that. Hell, no, because because no, there was you know, there's a lot of screaming and talking and all that shit. All I can say is like my training and shit. Like, I'm I'm just sort of you're good for that eight shows a week kind of thing, you know, like I love doing this, like for some people, be death.

Do the same show five hundred times. I did that show over five hundred times. Oh.

Like gosh to me like that's exciting. I get to show up tonight and try to be better than I was last night. Just keep digging and digging and you know. Well that's what Chris and pointed out.

I was I was lamenting about. How I just I could not do I couldn't do it shows a week for four for a year. She goes, Yeah, but maybe you're comparing it to something you wouldn't want to do, basically, which is try to sing and you suck at singing.

She's like, did you did you mind doing a live show at the Groundlings every Sunday? I'm like, no fucking live for she's like, what have you could have done that eight, eight times a week? And I'm like, oh yeah, yeah. But as you get older, I'm wondering, is your appetite like because it is such a commitment and you have, you have a baby, all these different things, you have other opportunities that probably pay more for less work.

Does it get less appealing or do you think you will always keep returning?

Oh, I would love to return. I mean, it has to be something worthwhile because the sacrifice is so great. You don't make a lot of money and you are away from your family. You have to care. So you know all those things. And so it just the only requirement is that it has to be something worthwhile, which is a tall order. But no, man, I look at it as it's like ministry to me, you know, it writes my whole life, you know, it just it puts me in touch with my purpose.

And I didn't get in the business to be a celebrity or be in TV and movies. I wanted to be on Broadway. So, like, any chance I get to do that?

They do do do do do do do do do do do do do.

And I say the neon lights bright on Broadway. On Broadway. George Benson.

Maybe the way I want to, I want to share one. You can tell me if it's true because this is their Kristen's brain, but it's a it's a story of hope. So I do want our listeners to hear it. She said that, you know, she knew you from New York, knew how talented you were, and then she saw you working at a grocery store.

And she's like, oh, man, this guy is just so unbelievably talented and he's working at a grocery. Yeah.

Be like a Babe Ruth took your keys at the valet.

You be like, are you supposed to be about something? Doesn't feel right in the universe that this is happening. And then, you know, a week later she heard that you got Hamilton, right.

Is that a true story is true Jewish already that they're part of.

It's wrong because I know he quit.

He had a TV job that he backed out of to do Hamilton, which I think must've took the most amount of bravery of your whole career. But it would have taken more bravery actually, not to do Hamilton, because I knew how special that show was. But so what's it like to not do Hamilton for a bag of money? It was just like I wouldn't take anything. I wouldn't take anything to not do. Hamilton But she's right that. Yeah, I mean, my survival job at some point, I just had happened to cause this is this going to make me sound like a shitty person?

No, but no.

But I feel like your podcast is about telling the truth. So the truth is I feel so bad, but I'm twenty two twenty three years old. And during the summers back at home, I had worked my way up to cashier at a grocery store at home. So I knew I was quick at the register and like, you know, and it's good money, right.

There's a union and you're like triple time on a Sunday if it's a holiday. One of my best friends in the Groundlings, Tim loves that. Sometimes I'm like, what are you making? Days like four and a half times, bro?

Will you do you remember the grocery strike, the union struck? And so I was a scab.

Oh, oh. Okay, okay, okay. Okay. I applaud your honesty. By the way. I've been so many things worse than a scab. So you are in good company.

Yes, I did. That was that was my survival job. But we didn't know like the grocery store strike. It ended up we didn't know if it was going to be a week or two weeks. I wouldn't scab today. I want to say I've learned I would not scab anything today, but I'm twenty two years old and and you know what? I'm dying out in L.A. and so they were striking.

And so you do know, is it a week? Is it going to last two weeks? But they were paying everybody the maximum, which at that time was like seventeen dollars an hour.

Why give it to me pro to scan groceries at the grocery store with beautiful moms and come up.

Yeah, yeah. I did it for like three months. I it could. The strike lasted a long time unfortunately. I'm sorry. I really am sorry to all the union workers.

We'll do it. I think the fact that you own that is the greatest thing in your book. Failing up I think addresses that right. Like the many, many setbacks. I mean, because if I look if I tell one version of your life, right, it's that you were on Broadway at 17 years old, that you've been on Broadway for twenty two years more than you've not been on Broadway. But that's not the complete story, is it?

No, I did that Broadway show and then it was over a decade before I did another one. It was over a decade before I did another Broadway show. And then and I've only done three, you know, it was there was rent, which was a dream come true. You know, I say sometimes half joking, you know, but I didn't want to be on television and movies. I don't want to be in show business. Even I wanted to be in rent.

Like that was my dream.

So it was like I'd won a fan contest or something, you know, like one day I'm loving the show and then the next day I, like, blink my eyes. And I'm standing in the seasons of Loveline and like, singing to and. Our audience, it's crazy. Yeah, did that show and then I had to dream another dream for myself. So then the next show that I did over 10 years later was a show called Leap of Faith.

We ran two and a half weeks on Broadway before we closed. And then the next show was Hamilton. Wow.

Wowsers. That's why I got two albums that are out. I think you're making another one. Maybe it's rumored. Yeah, man. But twenty sixteen. Leslie Odom Jr., number one on the jazz charts. Twenty eighteen. Simply Christmas number one on the jazz charts. You're single. Go Crazy is is everywhere and doing great. Yeah.

That's from my first album of all original music. I just put out an album of all original music and I'm super proud of it. This weekend we went after the movie, of course we went to we were number one on iTunes pop charts for the whole weekend and yesterday was amazing.

Yeah, that's great, man. Congratulations. Thanks. So happy to hear that. Oh, last thing I got to say, Central Park is the best cartoon I've seen since The Simpsons. I mean, you're on you're on like one of the greatest cartoons ever. Man, I can't believe how good it is, like Christmas and early ones.

And let's watch it on my. Here we go. You know, I got to watch Oncor about people reassembling their musical theater.

My wife loves that show, but I'm sure she does. I'm sure, you know, there's a lot of stuff that I watch. And so this thing starts and I'm like, oh, my goodness, babe, you are in, like, the best cartoon in the world, right?

You cartoon. It's a good cartoon. And Josh, you know, Josh and I went, you know Josh very well. I love Josh's episode of your show. But Josh and I went to college together. Carnegie Mellon. Yeah, we were little babies and I've been working on his weird little projects for over twenty years. Is the first time he's ever paid me though.

So yeah it's yeah. We're having a ball. I love it. That's great. That's great. And that's on Apple. And then of course Hamilton is on Disney plus and then your music is available everywhere. Music is available. Leslie, I hope when all this is over where it will hang you. I would love that, Nicolette and I. Yeah, that would be fun. I would love that.

Thank you both so much. Thank you, Monica. Thank you. Thanks for making making space. I appreciate it.

Absolutely. We love your show.

Oh, thanks, man. Bye bye. Stay tuned for more armchair expert, if you dare.

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I'm happy to be back here. I know you've been out of town. Yeah, I had a one week business trip. Sounds funny to call it a business trip. That seems like what moms and dads do at an Embassy Suites. That's what you did.

Well, that's true. Mom and dad and you stayed in LA virtually.

And I was in a Holiday Inn Express at one point and then a Sheraton. And I don't know if it's Sheridan or Sheraton. I think it's Sheraton.

Oh, I think it's on Saturday. Neither of these are endorsements.

It's a deal. It's a deal.

Shared Sheridan white shirt. No. Oh, that's a different Sheraton. It's Charatan OK with a T..

I was right to be nervous. Oh, my God. The thing which he had just texted me the other day and he said, did you know it's actually hard as hell? Not hard as hell. What? Yes. And then I said, Really? And then he immediately said, actually, no.

So. So he must've started on tick tock. Oh yeah.

He's he's getting a lot of his info now from pretty much exclusively from Toucha.

I thought they ended it because it was a Chinese company. So did I. But it's still there. It's not slowing anyone down. Huh.

I think what happened is, you know, a lot of Southerners say that Hearties Hale, one of my favorite pronounce, the Asians of hell like that, was on this program about an animal wrangler.

He'd go get like alligators out of swamps and stuff. Sure, he got bit by a snake. He wasn't there to deal with the snake, but he was there to deal with an alligator on his way back to his truck to get some tools. He just saw a snake in the grass, so they weren't even on him tight. And he's like, oh, a snake. And he grabbed it. And then he then also and he hurt and hurt like hell.

He got bit by the snake, which wasn't even while he was there. Oh.

And then I was wondering how good he was at this job. Yeah. You're right to question because he was very much fashion first. He oh he had like really bleached hair and spiky and lots of like true religion jeans in the wall. That way it was it Guy Feri. No, no.

But very similar look. Oh yeah. So good. You're on the right path. OK, he just went and got things out of people's ponds and yards. Yeah. Oh my.

I think you know but I don't think you know I really hate snakes.

Oh really. Yes. No one on your hate list. OK, or let's call it fear list.

OK, but you'd rather be face to face with a snake than a lion.

Hmm. I hope so.

Yes. Yes. I get sort of paralyzed thinking about a snake. One of my best friends from home has like a true phobia of it, even if you like, say it like she hears it. Oh, my God.

You know, I thought your friend was immediately Indiana Jones. Oh, it is Indiana Jones.

Hey, thanks. Why did it have to be snakes? He hates snakes. Don't get paralyzed. Yeah, it seems to be the only thing he was afraid of.

I remember he goes into that. I've never met. You've never seen Indiana Jones.

OK, I have seen one of them at the Cannes Film Festival, but I was mainly like not paying attention and pretty high on all the celebrities that were there.

Yeah. And also probably was one of the later ones. I make no claims on the later ones. It was. It was. Yeah.

But the first movie is insanely graphic. I mean they built a ride at Universal, you know.

But isn't there some racist stuff or. No, not that I'm aware of. Oh OK. OK, maybe not. I thought that anyway. You never know.

I watch some of these things now and I'm like, oh yeah. That would, that's not a great well short circuit.

Let's just say, you know, you got my you got an Anglo man playing Indian.

Wow. So I never heard of that movie. Right. And all you remember is if you are a kid is the robot came to life. That's really what you remember.

Yeah. So Kristen decided to show it to a viewing party for the kids and we were all there.

And then there's a brown face situation. Sure. It's a little troubling and an accent.

Oh, it was bad. Yeah. Yeah. Again, I would have never even thought of any of it. Yeah.

But then I was like, oh yeah. This is very outdated. Yeah.

OK, now back to Indiana Jones. I don't think there's anything like that in there, but of course we should watch it together. I'll find out in fast order if there's something dicey.

Well, I'm not going to like the snakes part. I'm telling you right now.

But you might love it because the hero who's fearless also fear snakes. So you might feel a great kinship. OK, he does not going to brown face at any point.

OK, movie. Do you like play tan? Well, he gets into some dustups where he gets dirty, but he's never presumed to be a different ethnicity.

Do you think he gets covered in dust and then someone like thinks he's Indian and then starts speaking in an accent like some of misunderstanding? Well, it's possible.

Some of the extras in the background, the big players. Yeah, they might be making some choices in assumptions that the director didn't intend. I can't speak to them. Whether they are looking at him going, oh, I think he's playing Indian, OK, I can't speak on because they don't have line, but then what if they don't have lines?

But maybe they in the background, they're talking to each other and they're moving their mouths because like they no longer respect we'll know like they're supposed to be like in the like dying or like Tawnia, but they're just actually voiceless. But even though they're voiceless, they're doing an accent in their brain.

Oh, OK. That's that could be Shibani. Yeah.

I thought you were going another direction, which is they're supposed to be pantomiming, not making any noise. But once they decided he was in brown face, they thought all bets are off. I'm speaking in this.

So I thought that's why it's so I I'm allowed to speak.

I've got this guy's supposed to be the lead of the movie, but now he's not. I'm the lead of the movie. Lots of racist stuff could be happening. That's right. We don't know about. Yeah.

Why were we talking about snakes? You're afraid of snakes. OK, what about submersion therapy where you immersion immersion. Sorry.

Immersion therapy. Oh, I thought you meant submersion. I was going to be submerged in snakes.

Well, that's what I was thinking, is what if we got like a coffin and we filled it halfway up with snakes. None of them are poisonous.

So mentally you knew you could get in there and nothing would happen. You would just be.

But they'd be so strangled. Is he racist? Who know? Kind of sounds like it does, right? Yeah.

OK, now now back to this coffin. Yeah. For your immersion therapy. If I fill it with half full of snakes, is there a figure that you would get in it for amount of money.

Oh my God. And I knew for sure. Oh, OK.

This is exciting. Oh, I squirming all around like an actual snake, so I know for sure they wouldn't be able to buy or strangle.

Well, there's no guarantee they won't bite you that there's no poisonous ones. And we know that no snake bite on its own is deadly.

But it would hurt. Oh big.

Would just be like getting shot. No. Oh my God. Oh my God. Yeah.

You might get a bite on your, like, inner thigh back your back, your ear. One could be attached to your ear lobe.

Oh, but again, this is a side. My ear. Well, this is all just pain you can certainly tolerate. You've had more painful things than getting bit by a snake in your life. And we're talking about a billion dollars billion. Yeah, would you do it for a billion dollars? Yes, I would be irresponsible to not see a billions, not a good number, because I would be a bad person if I didn't do that, because then I could give it to charity.

That's right.

I'm trying to get you in a position where you would seem unethical to not. Oh, I have one for you. That's going to be so over the top. You're going have to cut it out.

OK, go ahead.

OK, so you'll be anaesthetize for this, ok. And the snake will too. But they will put the snake in your butthole.

And so that the face is aiming towards the exit of your butt.

But it'll be up in your your lower GI and then they'll bring both of you awake.

No, because they have the technology, they'll do like a adrenaline shot for both of you. And then you'll have to let the snake crawl out.

What a person.

Well, we know it well in this scenario. Right. So, yes, you have to have a snake put in your butt and let it crawl out of your butt.

And what's the price tag on that? And is his mouth shut? No, no, no. His mouth is fully functional. We don't want to we want to put the snake through any kind of stress.

OK, I'm risking death here then. No, no, no, no. You would not die of a snake bit the inside of your body. Yes. Yes, I would.

Oh, we have a team of surgeons on standby. You're not going to bleed out from this little fisher, this little Gardiners. Next stop. I hate garden snake gardener.

Snake gardener, snake Sharat. No, don't get distracted.

Tony. Tony, you're trying to find safety in the Internet search. What's the prize like, I can tell you what the prize for me is, how much? Two hundred grand. No tax? No. Yeah, that's not true.

I don't have a fear of a snake crawling out of my butt. In fact, if I could feel it in my butt, I would pray that it would crawl out. Well, let's be honest, slither out. Yeah, I'm sorry, everybody, but there's significant money on the table here. With the fact that he is getting implanted and there is a horrible path, no, he and I are both taking naps and now we're both.

Brought to a waking state, and we both realize neither of us want to be in this position and start smashing him out. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like I'm sure. Yeah. I think your body, your muscle memory would take over and you'd start pushing him out like you was whether you knew better or not.

Makes me want to cry.

Good. What's the price you're looking at maybe five, 10 minutes of discomfort in your whole life. Fifty million dollars.

50 million so far. Forty nine million dollars. You wouldn't have a snake up your butt. No, wow, he has such integrity. I really admire it. I don't think it's in integrity. It is 50 million. I could give a lot away to charity. I could buy my house and renovate it exactly how I want it. And then I could buy stuff for my family for ten. And I have plenty of money for children, but not less than that.

OK, 50 million is the price. So arm Cherrie's if you all donate 50 dollars, which I know is a lot for a lot of you and not a lot for others. So maybe the ones that that's not much you could donate 100 grand I'm sorry. One hundred dollars.

But we could get this done now where of course we're underestimating the cost of the procedure and finding medical professionals that would perform it. But let's not get hung up on that right now. Let's just try to crowdsource this 50 mil to watch you people are going to snatch it.

Well, I think if people donate 50 bucks, they're entitled to see it. Exit your butt, don't you?

I mean, as long as they agree to not make it sexual, that seems like a reasonable thing to ask.

It's a three foot snake that is not even fitting in my body. Sure. Will they when you get a camera for a colonoscopy up your butt, it's like five foot a camera.

But the snake can't get up in my organs. No, no. Again, it's going to be facing towards your rectum. Just to be really clear about this head is going to be on his way out.

That's right. His head. Would you feel more comfortable if the head stays outside of your anus?

Yeah, yeah, I guess so, because part of it is I'm scared he's going to start biting me inside my butt, I think is his, his or her. Let's not be sexist. He's horrible. Her goal might be just eggs. It there's no I don't know why biting anything makes you feel now like you're exiting quicker.

This has to be part of it because as soon as he comes out, he's definitely a boy. As soon as he comes out, he's going to be riled up.

He's going to be pissed or relieved to be out of here, but he's going to be pissed. He was stuck and then he got released and then he's going to bite my neck off.

No, no, no, no, no.

Listen, if you found yourself if you woke up tomorrow morning and you're in a room with no doors or windows, you know, what would your first option be to start biting the walls or would you try to start figure out how to get out of there? You wouldn't bite the walls.

Biting would be low. Low on your list of. But I'm not a snake snakes bite, that's what they do in a pinch when it helps them to defend themselves, but they're not biting as a hobby, but they think they need to defend against me because I'm like keeping them in my butt.

Well, but they don't know you're in. He knows. They don't know they're in your butt specifically for sure. I don't think they even know they're in a but much less yours. OK, quick question.

If you had to wake up in someone's butt live or dad. Oh, who's.

But would you want to wake up in. OK, Matt Damon's mom.

No, because truthfully, I think I'd want to wake up in a girls, but I'm probably vegetarians, but OK, because they're getting all their poop out of there. Yeah. Stinkier. But yeah. That's a good point. I don't want it to be stinky. I have one. OK, who?

Penelope Cruz circa Vanilla Sky. Tell me why you have to tell me why is your head like the snakes? Like, it's like kind of towards the butthole.

Yeah, OK. Yeah, yeah.

And then to me that for whatever reason, that seems obvious that I'd want it to be Penelope Cruz from Vanilla Sky I.

Gwyneth Paltrow. That's a good pair. This could be an award we gave out at the end of every year because it says a lot about the person. It's like a hygene award. A diet award.

Yeah, I'm trying to think who do I think is like the cleanest person?

Gwyneth is a good. That is that's. Yeah, that's really good. Yeah. That's really good.

That's pretty good. All right, look, you could wake up in there next to other things that the group decided was also good to be in here. But that's the only potential downside, I think.

Oh, but I'd be OK with sharing space. OK, yeah. OK, ok. I'll stick with Gwyneth for now. Great. Speaking of hot people. Oh, OK, Leslie. Oh, sure, sure. Oh my gosh. Wowsers.

Yeah, yeah. X Factor galore. Yes, but OK. So he mentions Kristen's Lifetime movie. That movie's called Gracies.

Troy Gracies choice graces a 16 year old girl whose mother is on a fast track to self-destruction. Oh, the police arrest her mother and separate the children. But Gracie does whatever she can to keep her family together. Yeah, the mother is in and out of their lives and her sister gets pregnant and runs off to get married. So Gracie takes on the challenge of being the caregiver and guardian to her brothers or putting herself through school and working part time.

She has a lot on her plate.

I've watched this movie. It's great. She's great. An added bonus to watching it and truth be told, is the reason I checked it out in the first place is her mother was visiting for a lot of that movie and her mother got put in as background.

So she makes some crosses. Oh, and she really got carried away with the crosses. There are scenes where her mother crosses three, four times, going to see Gracie will go into another room.

And lo and behold, that woman is also crossing in that room.

OK, it is great fun if you know and love Laurie and you know and love Kristen to watch it for that reason.

To be fair to Laurie, I do know and love I don't blame her. Obviously, I blame the director who's like, not paying attention.

Let's be specific. You should be blaming the ad, the assistant director there in charge of background.

The director can't be worrying about the performances of the leads and also myopically staring at the crosses in the background. They miss the performance. Look, they could do it all.

I'm not trying to. They want their movie to be good.

I'm not even putting shade on the ad of Gracie's choice because that ad, she or he may have thought, oh, who gives a shit? No one's going to notice and they're having a blast. And I would cosign on that.

That's true. Yeah. OK, so Cassius Clay, you said he knocked someone out. That was quite early on. I didn't find that. OK, Sonny Liston is black. Yeah, OK. Malcolm Gladwell token episode is called The Hug Heard around the world. The Hug heard round the world. Yes. Sammy Davis Jr hugs Richard Nixon at the 1972 Republican National Convention, which alienated him from the black community at large. Yes.

Yeah. Oh, OK. The Toni Morrison doc is called the pieces. I am OK. And then he talks about being a scab for the grocery store union.

I never heard that phrase before.

Oh, I didn't know about it. Yeah, but it's a union worker who returns to the job without permission from the union or a non-union employee who needs the work and is willing to put up with the taunts, threats and even violence from strikers. In either case, he or she is the mortal enemy of the labor union, an organization that's designed to protect the interests of workers from the possible tyranny of management. The only true weapon of the labor union is a strike and scab labor renders a strike useless.

Yes, so Michigan's a very, very union centric state. Yeah, and of course I'm very pro union and that term scab was very well known where I grew up, and it was like the worst thing you can be.

What I can now see is, you know, once again, it's a way for the true antagonist to go unchecked. Right. So the whole struggle then becomes about the scabs versus the union workers when it's like, oh, well, the the shop owner just got off scot free because now you guys are mad at the scab, right?

Yeah. It kind of gets diverted.

I can see another side of the argument now that I've left Detroit is like, well, it's convenient for the employer to make it all about the scab and the union worker when that's not really what the fight is.

Yeah, I, i that's true. And also like what they don't they need money.

Yeah. But I get it. They're right. You know, the unions are asking all people to help. Yeah. And curb the behavior of these multinational companies. And so the citizens have to band together and that might even if you don't work for that company, you might. You might. We are called upon, right, to help with that mission. It's kind of hard because, I mean, I know you benefit, so you'd want to help.

But also if you're struggling, if you can't put dinner on the table, you really put in a bad position. Yeah, yeah.

The reason it's never been a great threat to sag the Screen Actors Guild is you can't really replace all the people that you and I want to see on TV with non-union labor and be satisfied. So there's this, like uniqueness to the job that kind of helps keep the union strong. Yeah. So they can't just replace everyone on TV.

Yeah, but it's also funny because I was thinking about SAG the other day. We were talking about unions and I have some conflicting feelings about unions, much of which is circling around their protection of getting fired. Mm hmm. And we don't have that. I can get fired on set tomorrow like I'm not protected from getting fired. It's not like nearly impossible to fire me. People get fired all the time on acting jobs and on sets.

They do. But I think where your union protection comes in is that you get paid for that job. I think that's one aspect of it. So when you get fired, you still get paid, which I don't think is right. The norm in a non-union. Yeah, that's true.

Where I'm critical of unions is quite often. So they've been the greatest thing in our country's history for creating a middle class. You know, and I grew up in a town that heavily benefited from union wages and entitlements. And I think those are great. I do think there have been times when the union doesn't want to acknowledge the economics that has happened, where it's like you've got a company like Toyota competing with a company like General Motors and General Motors is all union shops and Toyota's non-union shops.

And so Toyota might even be willing to pay as much per hour as the union shops will, but they're not willing to take on 30 years of retirement. Right. A lot of the entitlement and retirement packages and health care packages that have been negotiated are simply on viable or unsustainable.

And so when you get up against the reality of that, there's been times where I think I've cited somewhat with some manufacturers or minimally just said, wow, it's very unfair that Toyota doesn't have to have union employees and GM does and they're competing in the same marketplace.

I just don't think there should be I don't think it should be so hard to get fired from a job if you clearly had a lot of misconduct or even just egregious misconduct.

Yeah, that's the other place where I think they can get carried away or there's plenty of history of them getting carried away. Yeah. You know, these teachers I know and is.

Yeah. Who have. Yeah, yeah. Teachers, police, auto workers. I'm sure they get caught sleeping in the bathroom. Yeah.

Well the an extinguished dubea next to them and a snake up their butt and two or three snakes up their butt and he can't fire. Yeah but it's really interesting too. I was just going to add that something that's happened in the evolution of industry over the last 15 years, it's not totally talked about all the time.

Is that. There's fewer and fewer and fewer and fewer union jobs because there's more and more and more automation, right. And on one hand, it's even more viable for the manufacturers to pay union rates because they have far less union employees than they've ever had. And it's it's that much harder for the union workers to get what they want because there's far less of them to go on strike. So they're like overall role in the manufacturing has diminished as automation has taken up.

Makes sense. So it's getting harder and harder for them to protect what they've fought for.

Yeah, well, food for thought that Leslie was fantastic. And that's all the facts I have.

That was all. Yeah. What a babe. What a charmer. Would it be inappropriate for us to have a top five at the end of all this?

You chose the top five dudes you wanted to hook up with based on the show. So feel like Leslie's in a top five position? Yeah, OK.

But isn't the power dynamic such that we can get away with that? Because it's a dangerous world for women, but it's not a very dangerous world for men at the hands of women.

So do we think maybe you could do that? I'll think about it. OK, think about it, ok.

It's another food for thought. OK, good. It's another piece of food, OK, because I just feel like he's definitely in the top five. Just from my point of view, watching your level of elation, you know, in your face as you're just listening to info. Yeah.

All the pictures, you're really smiling, lit up like a Christmas tree. OK, ok. OK. OK. I love you.

I love you.