When I started this podcast last year, it was an exploration of my own grief, I had lost my mom, my best friend, and I couldn't imagine my life without her.
I suddenly had all these feelings of sadness, anger, confusion and guilt. I needed to understand them. So I turned to my friends and people I knew who had been through a similar experience. It was eye opening. We cried, we laughed. We processed that podcast helped more people than I could have imagined. I've been inundated with messages and connected with hundreds of people who have lost loved ones and realised their experiences needed to be shared. There are still stories that need to be told this season on Death Becomes Them.
I meet people who have lost siblings, spouses, parents and children, though the experiences differ. One thing remains consistent. Talking about it is therapy. Today, I sit down with Jennifer Rock, better known as Disconcert. Jennifer is a vibrant businesswoman, a best selling author and social media star. Her ever growing success is down to her hardworking nature, her creativity and her support of family. One person in particular influenced Jennifer's success more than most. Her father, Jennifer, opens up to me today about his sudden passing in 2018.
She talks about dealing with the shock, going into autopilot and actually threw herself into work in the aftermath.
Jennifer is in the building to see how I kind of jumped out of my seat when I said the sun to your skin, right.
To know what was what you were. And you were doing this podcast. Even this morning, I'm working. Afterwards, I put on, like, tinted moisturiser because I was there with all the going. She probably will judge my skirt.
I don't judge, but I do enjoy analyzing to give advice. Is that the nicest way to reply? Yes. OK, you have beautiful skin.
If you're going to give me a good analysis now, what would you say that your tinted moisturiser on?
I can't really tell my whole family are involved in this business, although I'm the person out front. So I remember years ago, friend, that doesn't know the cleanse that you mentioned. I had launched it about eight years ago and it was a disaster, like an epic fail. I thought I'd make the mess and a few hours, a few tweets and I'd, you know, just everyone to talk about it, obviously, because you shouldn't use wife course and then that would be it.
But that wasn't it. It was a disaster. It was an epic fail. I had met everywhere. I always say if I a match, then like Brian. Lovely to meet you, Arthur.
How do you have an attack? Can I finish, please? Because there was it like Mummy Daddy's attack. There is Metzen anyone's attic that I met. And anyhow, long story short, if I bring it back, it kind of the five years later I remember I was working in the more media side of skin care and my daddy I have to say that I know I'm halfway to seventy and I still call the mommy daddy. But since Daddy's passed, if I started calling him dad now, I think he'd haunt me because it's who turned in his grave not happy.
So I appreciate that, I should say mom and dad, but I won't tell Mommy and Daddy be really Irish.
But I like my accent while being Georgia. Where am I wrong? Which is very posh.
So yeah. So I they were right. They were crucial to everything. Klans off Armatix because when the Met came back again, remember Daddy saying to me at Christmas Day one time the mess was disaster parked failed Igoe her tail between legs never told Johnny Bench. Yeah, don't even go there.
And where's the Christmas dinner.
And Daddy said to me because he is he was obsessed, absolutely obsessed with his career.
So I think that was always our go to like him. You just like you said, and then you changed it to he was it's so funny because sometimes I will talk about Mom and I would say, oh, mom is. And then sometimes I'll go was it's funny.
How do you want and you cracked yourself. And I think it's more unnerving for the person beside you. Oh, sorry. She hasn't really figured it out yet that he's not here, but it's just habit.
She's mad, she's cuckoo but probably so yeah. So he was hugely into his career and I think that's very much where we always had that passion and alignment. So when the Klans off me, it came back when he said it to me at Christmas dinner. What do you think about, you know, maybe given us I have moved eight, maybe ten years prior, my old bedroom of a mini warehouse, their attic was about to implode. There were so many myths everywhere, boxes and boxes of them.
And I remember being so hurt on Christmas Day because, like, I always want to impress Daddy. You just did. That was that was part of your relationship as being a child to a parent. And I yes. I said, right, I have to figure this out anyhow. Was in the media was talking about skin care all the time. And my mom said, Mom, not mommy.
Mommy said to me, would you maybe talk about the like, I would love to decorate your bedroom like you left a decade ago. And so I mentioned it and it did really well. And Daddy had just retired and he said, look, just to get the house back to normal, I'll I'll post them. I'll get rid of them however long it takes, years and years. And we sold like a ten thousand maids within ten days. And so he knew the post office really well and those were his Lutterworth.
No, they weren't.
But he was just posting a posting a posting a. Back to Matthew in business, when you're asking what he wants to do. He was on commission to cycle up and down with his friends, bringing them down to unposed. And my dad would drive down my mom and be like, I wish we'd have filmed it. I think it looks in my head it looks hilarious. And then the Mets are stored so much nicer now. But back in those days, it was stored in this, you know, those old, like, storage units around everywhere.
And it's like derelict. And, yes, that's where the Mets were back in the day. And Daddy used to drive it every day, collecting Payson's of them, put them in the car. The Raynham began like nothing professional and then bring them back.
And all of the Mets were done from the dining room table. That was our dining room table.
You I think that I think the story of anyone, how successful they are, is to start almost like that, you know, and then grow. So would you say that your dad was always your number one supporter, always encouraging you, pushing you, forcing you? Yeah, very much.
I remember going to pick tomatoes when I was 12 because I was not that I was sent out to work, but I was a little diva and I wanted to have like a phone and all the things that hasn't changed.
And he taught me how to, like, shake hands and head to eye contact and how to negotiate the best pay package. Because I was working with a lot of boys and they were getting paid like a pound more than I was. He was like, go back in and shake their hand, tell that man. So he was always like fighting for me. I suppose he wouldn't do it for me, which at the time I hated. But now you love.
And then see these guys, he was always the person that I suppose read everything. He had a phenomenal use of the English language to the point that now when I suppose the network started and ingredients came into fruition, which are more my later businesses that weren't a disastrous fail at the beginning. But I did do Cracked. He taught me, I suppose, to read contracts. He came to all my solicitors accounting, any negotiations I had. He came he was just phenomenal because his life was business.
He he lived. What was your dad actually don't know? I remember one time I actually had a huge operation. He specialized in company law and I had a huge operation and I wouldn't get off my phone. I just love working.
And he took the phone off me and took out the biggest the biggest book you've ever seen your whole life and read me the Company Law Act from cover to cover it, to make sure I felt your feeling on welfare.
That's what helped because I fell asleep then. But the point is, he was always usually involved in everything to do with my business. And I'm really lucky that because I was only being self-employed for the last year before he passed away, so he passed away unexpectedly. And so I'm really lucky that I had that bond, to be honest, because had we not had that, we would have been more like a more traditional relationship.
But I'm really fortunate that I had it.
Do you think in a sense of now that your dad is no longer here, that he was? Because I always think with myself, with mom and thinking what? Maybe she was always supposed to go when she did and she was always supposed to go in the way that she did. And I was always going to be in America when it happened. But you think what your dad that he almost set everything up for you, you know, because in some way, not that he didn't know what life knew, that he wasn't going to be around.
He almost prepared you right before he left to read the contracts to do all that, to give it a second go to make it a success.
I definitely think that's a romantic way of looking at it. Ironically, about six weeks before he did die, I signed the largest contract I've ever signed to date, and that contract took a year and a half to come into reality. And that contract should have been signed two years prior. So those kind of things you're looking at, I wonder, and that's really peculiar, but I like with your mom, I remember being beside papa. She had found out about your mom and she was going to work that day and I was working with her.
So, like, I remember your mom. I remember hearing the news. And it's so when you hear someone that you think, you know, OK, they don't really know the truth. I know of you, but your heart is like, oh, you just feel for the person. And I remember months later, because my dad died in June. When did your mine was February 28. She was to say a couple months apart. Yeah.
So I remember then you talking about it so openly, maybe let's say October or November. And I was just so taken aback because it was beautiful to hear you talk about it in a normal way and just show your your pain and your hurt.
And I think that I was very anxious about doing that. I think the first time I spoke about it properly was on the radar. See, Radioshow and I was so nervous to do it. And we were doing a run for Rosie, for my mom's charity, for the mother hospital and the foundation that my mom passed away. So knowledged syndrome. And I was so nervous sitting down and just I don't know why I think maybe was I was embarrassed.
That's the wrong word. Maybe I was embarrassed to be emotional and to be vulnerable. But in a way, I'm so glad that I done it, because when you've messaged me and even what you said it it's so strange.
It's so even now when I go to talk about it, I'm a talker. I still sometimes stumble with it. I think it's a realization we played. We Have a supermarket.
Flowers by Ed Sheeran is a song that reminds me everything I'm going to so it's a song that will always remind me of my mom and author made us a compilation of footage and pictures of videos of mom. And we arrived today literally outside here. We stopped the car and that song came on. Oh, yeah, and then I kind of thought, oh, just hearing that I knew was going to stomp on me. It's so weird. And I think because I was doing it so publicly, I wanted to talk about my mom in the correct right way.
And I also wanted to sound like I had my shit together.
I didn't want to talk about in people going, he's losing his mind. But what I learned was a lot of people go through loss.
A lot of people suffer loss, just like you and I, some even more. And I think no matter how you come across talking about it, people relate to it. And it's just about having that conversation because as we said before, we start recording it. No one does. Why do you think people don't talk about grief, death and loss?
To be honest, I probably wouldn't have before Daddy died, I suppose, until a lot of time, until you've lived it. And they always say, walk those shoes. How can you know? I was always worried that if somebody passed away, you had to mention it like it was just like a polite thing where you'd empathize immediately. And I think having lived the last two years, I've definitely noticed that it's a huge part of your life. So the fact that they're not there, but there's this massive void that isn't there.
So it's it's it's it's it's important to address it. But I don't know. You said Ray D'Arcy. That's really interesting because a couple of months after Daddy died, my first book came out and my first interview was with Ray D'Arcy and my book was dedicated to him. And so I knew without fail he was going to address it. And there was one request that I'd had across the media was maybe don't ask me because I'm going to just be upset.
But anyway, Ray was like Jennifer and tell us about who is dedicated for us.
So I think I think the most important thing is to talk about it and just address it in the way that you feel comfortable to do. So I talk about him all the time, like all the time, like what would he do? What would I do?
And I suppose for me there's been large milestones in a commercial like in a business way that I wish he was there for. And they kind of highlighted. But it's actually the everyday that's the hardest.
It's seeing a walnut weapon in the shop that you're not ready to see. And that reminds you of him or someone having a liquor store.
And you like God, that's his. Why are you eating that? That's his. Or, you know, hearing a song on the radio. Like, I have a massive connection to a song. And when it comes out and all of a sudden it's like I've decided if they sign and some people think that some people don't believe in science, I sound like a fruit loop about science. But I think you have to look for something. I don't believe you're just gone for forever.
I think there's more than that.
So you take comfort in it from chatting with people, seven people, you know, season one. And now with this current season meeting up and some people are so believe in signs and some don't. So you obviously believe in signs?
Yeah, very much so. So when when Daddy died. So I rang them on the Friday and I had just gotten a new car. I was delighted my life. I was ringing them to tell them all about it. And that was my last conversation with him. And I was actually going to counselling. I'm a big believer that you have to look after, like your skin, Brian, and you have to look after your body.
But you also have to your brain about out to look after your skin.
Qadi, which is beautiful. Thank you.
I'm sorry, but I remember ringing him and my phone actually has to off for the whole weekend. That was part of like this immersion piece that I was doing. And I remember sitting in the counseling studio, if you will, and the phone rang. So we had to put our phone into a box. I volunteered because my phone is literally like a third freakin limb. So like I had to give it away in order to be properly focused.
The batteries are consumed by.
So he and the phone rang. I thought I remember thinking, that's for me. I was just really bizarre. And I like that phone call is for me. And then the gentleman came in and said it to the leader and she went out of the go.
Maybe it's for her and I think it's Stephanie for me.
So when she came back and she looked me straight in the face, that was a phone call for you. And I said, OK, so I went outside and my mum, an amazing neighbour, actually, the lady, an angel sent from heaven. So she was on the phone. I don't know how she got the number because it was a landline of nobody really knew who I was. And the lady imroth, her name, she said, Jen, your dad's.
And I said, is, is he dead? And she said, sorry. And I said, is is he has he died? And some sort of memory. And then she said, oh, no, he's collapsed. They're working on him now. And I said, OK. And then she arranged for her husband to come and collect me because I was really at twenty minutes away. So we're getting into the car. And I have a weird thing with signs of numbers.
I love numbers. So I went out, I turn my phone on obviously, and on over a day and I turned on was at 18. So like I usually see at eighteen prior to that and it would mean happiness for me, but I saw that and I just knew this is not a good sign. So anyway, the husband who's again another angel came to me and he drove me back. We're in this beautiful, huge jeep and I'm sitting there and we're pulling up near the house and I'm like, Jennifer, just enjoy this moment.
Is the last time that you have a dad that's a lie on Earth. I just enjoy being a daughter. Like to enjoy these few seconds and we're turning around the corner. Allen, who was driving me, said, just be aware that like because they live like to dress up these days, is beautiful and accurate, is going to see fire brigades and ambulances everywhere.
So I thought, OK, no problem. And I went around the corner and says, ground. He prepared me.
And I just think from that moment on, my life changed completely because everything was like in slow mo.
It was just so we pulled back like that's how it feels in my head. Like we pulled up. We didn't pull up, if that makes any sense. And he wasn't like the ambulance or was wide open. There were stretchers on the grass. The ambulance drivers turned respectfully away from me. So I was like, oh, this is not our job to be like Fosca Adams Hospital. So I pulled into the house or walked into the house and my cousin just had her arms open.
So I knew. But Daddy had passed away unexpectedly from a heart attack and so I could see him in the kitchen.
And so the rest of it, I don't really remember, like I've heard you on their podcast say the same, like you had such a long flight coming home.
Like, that's just like my heart genuinely goes at it because there's just you do so much and you turn into this different kind of version of yourself to get through those few hours. And and I know everyone listening that's been through it understands that. And I think that's the hard part, though. I think then when you meet other people and everyone has lost somebody, there's like a pain that you can understand because there's a part of your life that's just never going to be the same again.
And I think for me, it was about like just being there for mommy. And like, I can't describe to you how and it's not because you have so many passes. Everyone turns into this like beautiful human that had no flaws, but their relationship was the most beautiful relationship you could ever have seen. Like we always described it, like Disney, daddy used to write mommy a Post-it every single Friday for 40 odd years where they fail at writing poetry like they were just they danced in the kitchen.
They just were the epitome of true love. And for me, I think my heart broke for my daddy, but actually for the fact that she didn't have her soulmate alive anymore. So we had a couple of hours with him that night where we sat and we sang.
And, yeah, we were really fortunate to have those kind of memories. But from there on in, I do believe what he I genuinely believe he taught me more than in the last two years than maybe even the three years prior to that, because I've had to become a little more responsible. I don't think for me I feel as much. I used to spend Mommy and Daddy offload all my issues. I call I do with this person and I hired this person and, you know, and they share it.
But then it does change. And I feel like I put my big girl pants on and there's a responsibility to to be there for my mom in a different way to let her have somebody to to kind of be the never going to be her other person, but to be that person for her. And I think that's important. And I think that's perhaps the part that's misunderstood with grief. It's not just the person that you miss, but for you must be the same.
The whole dynamic of your family changes like you speak about your mom so beautifully, how she was like your everything. So she was the core. Yeah. And so it's that that that dynamic changes and that's hard to relearned, I think. Well yeah.
Because you almost feel like there is someone constantly missing. What is your dog. When he passed 67, he died just before your father, the day before Father's Day and then a week before his birthday. So I didn't put an age.
I knew her age. I never told my mom was eight. She was sixty one. Did you did you have an age on your data? Was he just your dad?
I don't know. You said something earlier. I wonder. And I'm not like I definitely like my qualifications are holistic by trade, like aromatherapy and reiki and so on. So I wonder if they I think there's more to the world than just an age. And this is when you started this when you. And what I mean by that is for a month prior to Daddy dying of a heart attack, I like honestly the fattest man you've ever met, like walked a Twitter food, as Mommy would call it, had had his NCT, as he called it, three weeks or three months prior where everything was checked.
And he was perfectly fine. And he was at gardening like he was an avid gardener.
And I did not get that Scalabrine at all because he tried to know.
But I yeah, I remember, like, any time an ambulance, a drive by four months before I used to panic. And I don't know why we lived in the same town.
I used to ring Mommy and be like, hi, just Jack and Angela Gald go to get to go.
And I get myself off the phone but I don't panic. Yeah. So I don't know.
There are lots of people in my holistic world that would say that there's a party. Why do you think that is healthy?
People say that it's part of your soul that's preparing you for or perhaps there's something that, you know, inside. I definitely didn't. But the phone call and the fact that I really felt that phone was for me, that I have no rhyme or reason for that. So you have to take us back to that day.
And you obviously you turned your mobile phone off in June and you just knew the phone was for you. Why would you think that?
I have no idea. It was strange. Yes, bizarre beyond bizarre. And when we worked, I don't know if you guys ever sat down afterwards, but we like it took us two years to able to sit down and go right where where were you at that time and trying to I'm still getting it together.
And it's been a year and a half years. It's gone so fast routine of the times that it feels like it's gone. So it's taken forever. But we do. And I only recently I will hear. The people's part of the story, and I quite enjoy that because that now, you know, two 1/2 years we know I'm laughing because we laugh, we cannot let go.
Do you remember when that happened? But at the time, my sister will get shivers and they'll get goose bumps to go out just to think of it. Now, the pain that you're in and the shock, shock can be a very good thing. I think it numbs you. Yeah, very much so.
I think you need it. Like I remember when I think back to the funeral, I have to laugh at my behavior because I turned into a Billy Bereket because I was I honestly like and I I apologized very regularly for this.
And if Momma ever hears this, I don't know if she still loves the story, but I was the chaperone bringing everyone into the house and I. Hello. And I go to the coffin, bring no no words, but I and I jazz hands at it like you're supposed to look at it.
You're going you're having a nervous breakdown by the sounds that were you were like this. I'm like, let's get this big sections. I'll give a Prozac.
I was like showing him off. Like, I like his doesn't look like best suit on his skin looks fabulous. He did look like daddy.
Like we put his glasses on Bernard and. Yeah, like I like when you think back it's just oh my goodness, that wasn't, that wasn't you. That was just you got shot through adrenaline kicking it.
Yeah, of course I was the opposite because I described it as being a show and it was a show that I didn't want to be part of. And it's only now I look back, especially with covid has made me very appreciative of people that have lost someone they love doing over and they've had absolutely nothing.
Of course, I remember choosing Daddy's coffin, so I turned into like the instigator. I was like the business mode. So I chose his coffin. I drove off, I chose it. I actually went to the graveyard, decide where I wanted to be buried, which you're not supposed to do.
So you are, you know, allocated applause. So.
Well, I talked very nicely to this gentleman on the phone, but I want him to look out at the seat. I mean, he's going to see nothing, to be honest, but I going to look at it or Mommy would look at it. So I suppose for me it turned into like it. Right. We have to do the best by him that you possibly could.
Yeah, but unlike you, I was fortunate. I was there. I saw him. I saw where he had passed away. I was there for all of that.
Was that because you're almost at the scene of the crime, you know, as such, how is that a benefit, do you think, in your grieving process? I didn't have any of that.
When I hear you describe it as is, I think, yes, I probably am fortunate that that happened because not that you've longer to let it sink in, but I have the memory of it. It's like a stage that I manage to walk myself through. But when I think back like a not to use humor, but you have to like I laugh so much during those days because people like you, you're bringing up stories, you're living everything. And I remember and the ambulance driver had come into to tell us, like, you know, we're going to, you know, come back in a couple hours or whatever it was they were telling us.
Molly and I walked into the kitchen and Daddy was on the floor in the kitchen. And, you know, they had made him look like pretty, I suppose, and not worked on, let's say. And I said I.
You want to talk to Caputi. So sorry I haven't offered you a cup of tea. And it's not OK, Patty.
Don't want that. Can could you just move Daddy over and I'll make everyone tea.
I thought much and started running towards Shibuya that way. Put your brain just goes to right. OK, now I have to entertain and people are going to come and you know, it's such I do think Irish funerals are beautiful because everyone rallies around. And you're right, we've had a few people and Bladen with my daddy over the last few weeks and months. And when you when you left. Yeah.
And I just I that's the human touch, the cakes and the sandwiches, tuna salad.
And like all of that is is needed, I think, to get you through chicken curry reminds me of my mom's funeral and now I look at chicken curry with a completely different way. It's so strange because everyone just sent us chicken curry. Yeah. I don't know why they were sending us curry maybe. But my sister, if we eat a lot of chicken curry, I have no fucking idea what I was like. What's so terrible?
Why I know. I don't know. Are we got sandwiches? Well, with the sandwich community. Talk to me about when you said eighteen. Eighteen. Was that when you looked at your was it your phone you turned on was 1880, was that always a time or just numbers that had fond memories for you or anyone that would have followed me on social say for the first few years of being on Snapchat and and soon chart?
You're taking me back.
I know well that they're the they're the real is nearby, but like I logged 11 eleven twenty to twenty and 18 18 where my number is always and I don't know, they didn't mean anything to me.
I just thought, oh this like something's aligning and it's all right.
And you know, I don't know because I take it a lot of gambles. Like as I said earlier, my daddy worship in the met out and it got to a stage where thankfully there was such a demand for them that I left my full time job at that stage years ago, I was working like the normal 40 hours a week for my full time job. My data were picking and packing them. And then I'd go out and, you know, be on social media in the evenings.
So when it got to the stage that I could work for myself, I suppose there's a lot of risks. Like I'm a single parent, as in it's just Matt and I at home. So to be able to I sort of take that leap was really huge. So when I saw those numbers, I was like I convinced myself, as you do, I thought, oh, this is this is fine.
Like, this must me and I'm going the right way. And then when I turn my phone on, yeah, it was 18, 18, and I just knew all of a sudden that what used to be this is great because it was unfortunately not. And what's even slightly more peculiar is that, as I mentioned, Daddy was there and I don't know who was ringing people, to be honest, but everyone was rallying around. And there's such private people like Mommy, Daddy are the most like private people.
So for people to be around in that situation, when I look back, I wouldn't have been what we ever thought we would do. But my daddy had this song that was their song always. And we all they everyone sat around the corner and sang it. And when I asked and someone's passed me the phone, they passed it in to put the song on. And twenty to twenty two was the time when the phone was like, Oh for goodness sake.
So now I don't particularly adore those numbers, to be honest.
When I see people, I think a question like make all the way to breaking the law, but isn't so funny something that you would always associate with fun or something positive then on that day completely changed your life forever and it flipped. And it's now a negative thing where you go, oh god, no.
Yeah, very much so. And then Daddy worked for himself. So when he retired, he loved work so much that Mummy says she couldn't keep him away. So he set up his own company. And on Monday it was 99 a really I'm making this up like honest to God, this is factual. A nine or nine. I happened to make my first phone call to ring all of his clients. So Daddy passed away on Saturday. He was talking to a lot of people on Friday, Jennifer, OK, his daughter decides the best thing you should do is ring everyone and tell them on Monday.
When I look back now, I just imagine these poor people in offices saying, oh, my goodness, I'm so sorry to hear about you are passing away and you are.
And I like his daughter.
And they were like, why are you ringing me like 24 hours later? Maybe that was just part of how you had to do it to get through it.
For me, it was about he gave me so much time my whole life for my career to put me on the right and listen to me like I had four a.m. phone calls. Reiby saying such and such happened and work. What would I do? And he he I said came to all of my meetings like a few weeks before he died. I was working at the Image magazine as a business. Yes. Yes. So he came to that old suit and booted me in the middle of, like hundreds of women.
And, you know, at the end, he'd always give me feedback. You speak too fast. Your Dialla, you needed to work on your diction, your hands flat like so he was just always so honest.
And so when I suppose the only way I knew how to give back in that scenario was to take over his business until we could sell it. So for a few weeks and months afterwards, it was trying to manage my own business and then manage it. So I speak differently. I have a John Rock voice because that is use of English and mine totally different. I do not know where he is from, but I know it was just trying to represent him as best I could.
So I think, I think that was that was my way of, in a sense, saying goodbye or trying to because you don't as you know, you didn't get those last words. I often hear people say, you know, when someone's on well for such a long period of time, I wonder, like, what would I have said?
I've been different for people who had lost a family member through, say, like an illness, for example, and say they're given eighteen months or six months or two years. And they've said it's never really enough time because you're never really ready to say goodbye.
But I think in a way that, you know, you and I lost our individual parents was it's just so shocking and it's out of the blue. And I felt like Mum was murdered. That's what I genuinely felt like. And because she wasn't sick, there was no accident. So I feel like that's something I will always cope with. Strangely, I discuss Mom's future with her the week before, even though she was perfectly healthy. She was. Well, Sunday dinner.
Yeah, I found solace in all of that, considering how angry I was in L.A. and my friend house fucking pitch black with a dog like. But then again, having the dog was a great distraction because I had to bring the dog for a walk. I had someone else. Something someone the.
To look after, because I can't imagine another member in a way, and this is one, Don, who got elected and we didn't elect at the time and I was like, Aleksa play sad songs because I couldn't cry, really could not cry.
Are you a crier? At the best of times? I'm very emotional, but I think I was just in such shock. I couldn't I cried initially. Well, my friend Leon said, I cried initially and she said it was like a whale. I don't remember it. Remember, you know, my knees kind of going and never feeling that before. But yeah, I couldn't cry. And then I got on the airplane and I was like, and he wouldn't even said anything to me about those ten hours.
I could tell, like we could have been hijacked. The plane could have run out of fuel right now. I would run. You know, you land in the sea for us.
Did we tell you I couldn't even peculiar how your brain you think you'll always remember those things. Like I remember Matthew was in the Gaeltacht, so Matthew's in the Gaeltacht.
So we were actually daddy and I would drive down to him the next day being Father's Day to see Matthew, to kind of have, you know, those two areas escapism. You guess when you send your child away to become a gilger and and those three weeks are going to be bliss in my life, to be honest.
I was like, I am going to be like you. And I was the first time and whatever many years that I like alone in a house on my own, you're free and free. You know, I don't like to say you. Yes, completely free.
But I remember I was getting driven down and then like, we pulled over because I think the shock just came. And then I, I can't describe to this unmerciful like it's just the most bizarre noise. It was like it was like a whale, like an actual it's just bizarre. And sometimes I try.
Yeah, but complete.
I like honestly if you ask me, I couldn't do it again, but it's just complete pain I suppose, and then a realization that things are different. And I suppose I was being very careful in the House not to cry in front of Mommy and to be more, you know, we'll do this then we'll go there and this is going to happen. I'm going to take care of that. And because I mean, I cannot imagine what your mom is coping now.
She's two years into it.
Mommy is honestly like our surname is so apt. Like she's an absolute freak and rock. She is genuinely my inspiration because the love that they had, like they did everything together, like if I if we went I mean, I have daddy daughter days and mom and I would do a lot together and daddy would tax mommy said the kettle's on and like he'd just they just missed each other terribly. If they were like three, four hours apart. I think they spend two nights apart in forty years of marriage before Daddy passed away.
So like the first night that Daddy passed away, obviously I stepped in it, mommy, because I, like all I could think was she doesn't know how to sleep on her own. She does. So for me, I suppose, my love, slight change. It's still the same, but it's perhaps more of a protector mode for her to to our time.
When you worried about yourself, I think that happens to a lot of people. I think so. I think like during COBRA, for example, that's been my absolute realization that he is gone because through immediately, like I said, the nine 09 ringing his clients and then trying to look after my own business and getting back into to that swing of things, there was so much distraction. When you have my job, like, you know, Japan or flying to America, like that's normal or like, you know, going to London or, you know, working 12 hour days because I adore it.
So then when it happened, I suppose for me it was actually I had no choice. Like, I can't leave my house. I have to face these things. And so I suppose that was a realization. And for me to look at her and see that she couldn't have anyone touch her, we couldn't see her, and that that really hurts.
It hurts to know that someone you love is in so much pain and you can't you can't do anything and say anything. And I think that art.
Does your mom still like to talk about your dad or does she tell you like stories maybe when they were dating or when they were fiancees?
And yeah, like, I'm an absolute freak individual, always ask and because their lives were each other and say it was their wedding anniversary recently. And I'd say, like, what were you doing now like 40 odd years ago and what did you wear? And like, all the stories are just beautiful.
Like Daddy walked X amount of miles, leave mommy a Mars bar on their drive and every week he'd get her a Mars bar for forty years. So why should I be buying her Mars rover?
So should I write post it like I could really. No. And like, you know, little things like it's the little things like she'd get her hair done and she'd twirl and he'd say, You're beautiful, darling. And I'm like, OK, she got hair done on Saturday. I'm going to go see her that night. And I like your hair is lovely. Like Rocket Oscar Pistorius. They're beautiful, darling. I am her daughter. But but it's just trying to you just I just love her so much.
OK, so she's in that much pain trying to compensate. Yeah. You know what he meant to her and you adore her, but also your dad's not around anymore, you know, and you have one parent left.
I think that's that's a harsh realization, isn't it. Yeah. Yeah.
That is because mom used to sign all of our cards so multitasked. I don't like I couldn't tell you my father's handwriting.
It was, you know, I don't think anyone, our generation do it. But you used to bring home when you're little, did you not just ring your dad?
And I'm like, I ask Mom how dad is. We were living in America, I bring the landline. My daughter's mother has died. You just never that. Yeah, when we finally got this, we got that man with tell me more about the dog would always say, how's the weather? It's hot.
Yeah, it's OK. It's just strange. We'd always do that stuff like that.
Have you better now like when you ring now? Because obviously, yes. There it's possible.
Now Dad's had to kind of be more what's the word. He was always willing to want to feel like I'm forcing him into a situation or saying something that's wrong. My dad now probably has to kind of stand in the light a bit more in a sense. He kind of has to stand up. So like everyone's birthday cards and stuff, like Dad doesn't know my date of birth, he just does not know his seven children.
Doug, what age is Michelle? 38. She's 40. What was I born in May?
It's like June, you know.
You know, you've got one son and he just because back then I was born, you know, 70, eight, my sister, 79, fowleri, 80, dad drove to the hospital.
Mom got out of the car, went in, and then we didn't even have a phone. So the neighbors had phones up until one tower was born. So we didn't have a phone. So the night we go to the neighborhood, our teepee, you know, make the call. And that was your mom's had a baby girl and he'd go collect and bring her home since it was so old fashioned.
But that's just what happened. And now he's getting better with the birthdays. He may not get the month. He won't get the date of the year. Like my sister Valerie is 40 this week, September 18th. Yeah. He doesn't even know what she is because she said she's 40.
She's following her older. I mean, because it's me, Michelle. Then he goes, hang on. So it's you, Michelle. I thought of no one in between.
Is there another one in between? Where's my other sister? It's just so funny.
So he's now how to do the work of two parents. Has it changed you at all in how you view situations, how you view your relationships? Has it made you angry, more emotional?
I think I actually became less probably some quite excitable high energy character. And I think for definitely up until I think the two year has been a massive milestone for me. And I think because of covid, it may be fast tracked things. But definitely I, I, I think I became more empathetic towards people. So even within the company, I would if somebody said I want to go to, I don't know, see my dad abroad, I go because I'm all I'm thinking is it's amazing that you have that person to whomever you want to spend your time with.
Once it's based on love, who am I to hold you back? No, that's not always the best answer. Like, I do need people to work, but I do think they're all just going to say, you know, do I need to go to Hawaii, see my dad?
Aren't you fuck's rock? But I just I think it definitely gives you more empathy. But I do think I hear pain differently. So I see when people's I look at people's eyes more, I think that you can tell a lot by people's eyes. I don't really look at their mouth as much because I think you can see pain in people's eyes. And I think that I don't look, they say the stage, the grief. I don't know if there's necessarily stages that go in chronological order, but there's definitely you go back and forth, I think.
And yeah, I don't think how can I change you? I mean, it's not just the loss. It's like what I said earlier, the whole dynamic of your family changing and the fact, like Matthew was so close to my dad. So he called him papa and he would have gone into my mom and dad after school every single day to do their homework. So his version of family and traditions at Christmas, like, I just don't enjoy Christmas.
And I promised faithfully that I'm going to enjoy Christmas this year because the traditions change completely. So because it's all kind of entwined. So, yeah, it does change you, but a lot for the better. I think it allows you to have a little bit more of an understanding. It definitely grew like I grew up. I think I probably need to like you think having a child at 17, you'd maybe grow up then. But no, apparently it took a bit longer.
So, yeah, I think it's positives by and large. And like I said, I think he taught me more because when I'm in business situations now, I try to ask myself, what what would he do? What would he say? So he was not a man of many words.
And at the end he would just come out with this unbelievable sentence because I'm like I'm like, oh, maybe I should talk less and see how that goes for a while. So I definitely try to look at it the whole situation differently, I suppose.
Are you religious? Not really. I believe there's something definitely I don't know what I believe there is. So I pray Chatham all the freaking time.
Oh, had is rack Brian driving by the graveyard are like, oh ok, I can help this today or I'm late. Can you make sure the posters aren't in my way. Like the poor man has leaned on for everything. I mean the posters is accusing all of it.
I think it's good. I mean I think that's very healthy to be honest. But no, I definitely taught him all the time. I have what I call window time. Most nights when I look out into my into the basement like there's stars in the sky. That's kind of my five minutes of, like, peace. That's just my own time. And that's when I tatem. But I do I wave like as I go by the cemetery every time.
And I don't know if you believe in this or not, but I went to like a medium type person last year.
We yes. This is still something I'm not sure. Not sure. Not to myself. I'm not going to sell it to you, right, but I will say when I went, the things that were said to me were so specific that it said the same.
She lost her husband, Daniel, really tragically, super young. And she went to a medium and she had heard stuff that only she and Daniel would have known. So were you in the same position?
Well, just simple things like who would know that I stick my hand? This is not the best way to drive a disclaimer out the window. But you should have two hands on the wheel the whole time. Please, can I just. Yes, I was just momentarily that more people moving along. So I have my hand at the window and I wave at him and the medium said that he looked like so daddy came through and is like, oh, I love that you wave every day.
And I'm like, okay, that's really peculiar because nobody would know that.
Yes. So little. I don't say that to my best friend. How are you. Well I was way but I don't know for four seconds. So those kind of things. But I do believe that there's something out there. As I said to you, I believe in science to some degree. I don't believe you're just gone. Gone. So I don't know. I'm not a very religious person.
So if you were going to say he was in a place, what place is in?
Why does he don't know? I just hope it's a happy place and that he's not in pain. And that would you get signs constantly from him or do you get signs when you need them?
No, I I've given up asking for signs because I do think it sounds like I'm using him. Like I sort of like if birds fly to the left of the car, it means I have to do it. Nobody's life. I'm OK. There's the and then the bird flies the right. But I disagree with you anyway, so I stopped all that. But no, when I got into the car on the Monday morning to go and choose his coffin with his brothers, a song came on the radio.
I think I said earlier that I'd actually just gotten a car on the Friday so no one had seen the car. I didn't know how to drive the thing. I'm actually a fantastic driver.
Please, do you know that this is not your on the BMR? And so on the Monday, this car, the song came on in the car and I just shut it off like music was not part of my day or didn't want to hear it. And so the next day I got into the car to do whatever is doing the song. Come on. Oh my goodness. And I couldn't get it to stop. And it wasn't on my Spotify, on my phone.
It was just coming through the speakers. And then I remember I used to Arlanda I'm every single Friday morning and Daddy would watch every single Friday without fail. And by the time I'd come out of the studio, take my phone off airplane mode, he'd have said, you know, your feedback is and this was great work on that. And, you know, he was just fantastic. I remember it was two weeks after he had passed that I said I have to go back and do TV.
And so I went and I did it. And I was I was terrified, like I was afraid I was going to cry or something because I knew they're going to say something like, you know, sorry to hear. And so I had myself braced and this frickin song came on the radio again. So I was like a bull going into Ireland and everyone's passing simply don't talk to me. I'm like, there's a song in my car. I'm like, oh, God love her.
She's lost it again. So anyway, it got back in the car after a crying, to be honest, because I didn't have like I didn't I was the first time I probably noticed that I didn't have something from him that would always have been renormalization. It's like, where's the text message? And Mommy was amazing.
She does it every time now, but she's trying to fill in where he would have bought the song came on, I think I got so I pulled over to listen to the song and it's Justin Timberlake Mirrors. I don't know if you know it. If you actually look at the words, they're beautiful, they're trying to get.
That's exactly how it's exactly like I think you're coming through the radio. It was me.
But like, if you look at the video that someone was like, oh, my goodness, the song actually has like, massive emotional and it's somebody that's died. And when I looked at the video, it's like an elderly man and he's passed away. And the woman is kind of like missing the man and they're like a mirror image of each other. So that that song has come on a couple of times at the most bizarre. You find solace in that?
Yeah, because I just think it was quite particular. And the song itself, it's just specific to grief. So it's just it's all a bit too uncanny.
That's when I started to Alan Hughes.
He had said he doesn't necessarily believe in when you cry, you feel better afterwards. What do you like about emotions and expressing them?
I think in general, yeah, I'm so emotional as a person, like watching her going away. It's devastating for me.
Like, it's just such an upsetting process of watching it with Sally left. Oh, did you?
In 1990 when I was a child? Well, I'm still really hip, but I watched a tiny, tiny. Right, but I yeah. Like, I'm definitely emotional. I'm totally in touch with my emotions as a person, I think. But when it comes to grief for comes to daddy, I probably shut down a little bit too much. So I think I'm at the stage where, if I'm being honest, I need to look at going to counselling or really addressing it.
And I'm actually surprised you.
Have you been to therapy or consequential? I'm surprised you not because you mentioned, you know, going for wine. Why not now? Probably when you would think you would need it more in your life than ever before?
I don't think I was able to. I think there was too much. I think my shoulders have become larger. There was more responsibility that I was putting on myself. And so to go and deal with the emotional side, I couldn't I had to park it and then just we have to do this and this is where we're at and, you know, tick the boxes and keep going. I know I'm at a stage where I don't think that's going to serve me for much longer.
And it's. Not fair on anybody. So do I cry about daddy? No, I got really sad and sometimes I'll just like tears will fall out my eyes and I'll miss him. But, yeah, I don't I think there's dad. I think I think I need to look at it and I think that's fair. I think two years on, it's OK to not have maybe I've not done anything like that.
There's still certain stuff that I wouldn't want to sit down in front of a stranger and discuss my feelings about my mom or how I'm feeling. I'd rather talk to my friends, my family, my husband even doing this podcast. I've always believed talking is therapy and I'd rather do that and sit down with people who have gone through a similar situation.
I don't know. I think it's therapeutic to talk. There's no doubt about it, and especially when somebody has been through it that you can relate. I do think that there's definitely obviously common ground, but I don't know. I do think there's a lot to go to someone who understands what questions to ask and what to draw out. And if it doesn't, it can only do good. I mean, it's not going to make it worse. I mean, they still passed away.
So maybe it's coping techniques or just an awareness piece, I suppose.
Do you think you've used work as a distraction to almost put your grief on hold, that you just threw yourself into running your own business, running your dad's business and kind of doing everything else, looking after your mom, making sure Matthew's OK, your brother's OK? You're almost like holding everything together so you don't have the realisation of shit. My dad, I'm never going to see my dad again.
I think that last sentence like that still freaks me out to this day. Someone said to me yesterday, look, I will never get to meet him and that I'm not like that just takes my breath away.
So that suggests to me that the some parts of my body that understands it but doesn't want to necessarily fully, completely believe it. But I did. I did. I immersed myself in work. I I love work.
So I think I didn't know how else to handle it. And because work and he were so like the same thing for me, like, you know, all my conversations with him would be about work and advice and meetings and, you know, even down to like, what should I wear and what would I worried that and how would you write the minutes of a meeting and anything? So I think because then when he passed away to manage his business and I just want to do the best I could for him, like one of the last conversations we had was about basic ingredients, which is my skin color.
That land that landed, landed, launched a year ago. So a year after he passed and he was talking about, you know, IP and trademarks and getting the serotonergic on my God. And I was so cross that was like, leave me alone.
I mean, I don't know if it's going to be Rad's OK.
And it's going to be clinically proven because is this data and you know, and he was talking about the serious part. And I think because for me, that using work was a way to be close to him during COFI, actually. Yes.
So that was probably yeah. Yes. It probably was escapism to a degree. I think it'd be wrong to say otherwise, but I think it was a way to be close and to try to use every milestone became so much more important to me. And then Wenzke ingredients launched and something happened a week or two prior and we needed a little bit of money and there is money there that wouldn't have been there had he not passed. And so he, I believe, got the ingredients to launch on the date.
When you think about it that way, like he's like he's prioritizing you and. Yeah. And helping you. That's how I choose to see it. Yes, definitely. Yeah. Talk to me about covid.
So do you think covid maybe helped you grieve a bit more because you didn't have and I'm not going to see your work, the destruction. Of course, you love your job and it's huge for you and you're very successful. But not having those demands about work maybe during Colvert helped you grieve more because that's the only thing you could do, because, you know, destruction's I do what I did that every single person in the country did.
Wilko what happened is I have a Newgarden, so like I always had a garden, but I didn't know I had one.
It was just like a look at the back and people would say, hi, are you successful? I was like, well, it depends on what you think. Success is another one. But secondly, look at my garden because it was just, oh, we got horrific. So during covid myself, my beautiful neighbor, there was a whole row of us. We just decided to get new grass and paint and it's beautiful out.
You should come sometime for yes, for two dogs. It's good for maybe something good for this heart, though.
But that made me feel quite close to him because he passed away while gardening. So I have like his twin or I'll have like, his hammer.
That's something you probably wouldn't have never let.
Your garden could still look a mess if you didn't have that time to do it. Maybe by doing the gardening was therapy for you because you weren't working. You were probably letting your emotions down. And just simply doing that could be healing you in your grief because you just said you feel closer to him.
Yeah, very much so. And then my book, my second book is due out, and that is definitely Daddy. And a book is always going to be a reminder because the book came out so soon after he passed away. So a lot of the deadlines were around the week of his funeral. And I remember going out and sitting like, I'm sure I looked bizarre, but you know, yourself in a cemetery, anything goes, you kind of get away with it.
But like, the second book is out. And I went and I read it to him, like I sat silently down to where I didn't stand at the end was so liberal again.
But look, I don't I don't usually get a lot of comfort from this image. I don't believe he's there. I believe he's kind of like you relate to that. Yeah. But I do think you said that. Your mom said and I agree. I think it's nice for others to have somewhere to feel they can go to see. Or take a picture or hear a song or have a of memory and just think about her specifically going. That means, though, because I travel pretty colvert quite a lot, it would mean I could only really be close to her at the grave because I lived in a different country.
Maybe that's why the association. Yeah. Yeah. Makes sense though doesn't it.
Do you feel you second guess yourself now, maybe business wise and personally, because if your dad was almost like that person that was kind of guiding you and you, you know, every appearance in Ireland, you look to your phone and talk bad or slow down or don't wear that. Have you had to second guess yourself privately in your relationships, but also business wise because he's not around guiding you and telling you what to do?
I think what I've not had you advising you on what to do now.
What I miss the most is like the debates and the like, because he was so opinionated. So I and I need at my absolute best interest at heart. So I think what I miss the most is the fact that and what I brought into the business are people that have my back as a person as opposed to the company's back. So I have amazing people around, like my M.D. or my head of operations that care about me and the business. And I think that's what was missing for a little while, that it was all about the business.
But your dad is going to care about, like how you come across and how will that look for you. So I think I've made different decisions because he's not there. And I don't think I second guess myself, I don't think I can. I think I just have realized he's not. There's been a couple of things last week that I just annoyed he's not there and I'm not cross at him, but I'm cross.
But I don't have him cross at him like, oh, I need you, like, have nobody else in the world that can answer.
That is being angry is a says. It's what it's part of the grieving process. You have to be angry. You are allowed to be angry that your dad was taken from you in the circumstances that he was. And when I came to terms, the fact that I'm allowed to be angry, I can be angry every day if I want. No one can tell me not to because she was my mom. She meant so much to me. But I want to cry every day.
If I would walk in my house naked for two weeks, I will.
You know, I don't think it gets away with everything, but I don't want to tell them.
But I think myself and when I didn't put limitations on myself, it really helped me. How it's like anyone that are doing it, you know, I'm saying what worked for me. But but then if you feel like that's not helping seek help from someone, you know, a counselor, go go see a doctor if you feel like you need that. But for me, talking not putting limitations on myself because there's nothing out there, you also can't copy someone else's path of grief that they were on.
What works for you may not work for me. Yeah. Do you understand?
Yeah, that I think it is for me. It's just talking and making sure that he stays alive. And I think because sometimes I can see it in people's face, they're almost unsure as to how to to manage that. But my answer to that is he was it was a huge part of my life for thirty three years. Just because it's two years on, it doesn't mean he's any less a part of my life. If anything, I probably honestly, I said this moment of the day, I probably think of him more because what he was fine and felt like, you know, I'm in work.
He's doing his thing, you're away. Whereas now there's an awareness of he's not there and how is mommy? And, you know, you're thinking differently. So just reprograms your brain. But I think talking about it and you're right, everyone will find their own way. But I have to find humor. I have to talk about them regularly.
And that's really my only ways, I suppose, for anyone that will listen to this episode that is currently going through grief or has just lost someone recently. And you could say to me, I think that helped you or that worked for you. I do.
I genuinely believe that talking about it and not trying is like as you just said, don't look at others. Don't feel that you have to feel a certain way. I don't I find so much comfort in this podcast, but it took me a while to be able to listen to it. And then I go listen to Nikki anymore and laughing or I listen to people and I'm like, oh goodness, because you can relate. And I think that it is about finding people that have been through, but also that haven't been through it.
And knowing that I think in my situation, because he's my dad, for me it's more about supporting my mom and trying to find positivity. I think like I feel so much for like I do believe it's slightly different when it's your partner. And I think that that realization to be there for her and that I'm not living her pain sometimes can be a little nugget to make me feel just as one of my gender.
And just when I done the first season of the show was I was only excuse to reach out to people who had lost parents. And then we came back to do the second season. I wanted to open it up a lot. And Rachel's name was a name that just kept coming up. Thank you so much for this lovely conversation. I always appreciate people talking so honestly, especially on a public platform. But I think you're like me. You believe talking is therapy?
It definitely is, because when you hear yourself say something and I sit inside like, oh, no, I do actually feel like that or goodness, I actually don't. And then I have this journal that I write. That's one thing that I do do not as much listening as I used to. And I found it recently and looking back to how I felt at that age versus now. I think it is worthwhile knowing that I don't think you don't make them any less, but you do find ways and you do find a new norm.
And at the time, you don't want to feel that you will, but that when you look back, you realize that you can't. So you actually feel stronger in yourself and to be resilient.
You wrote some stuff down back then, those two years ago.
And is there a vast change in massive changes in how you look and how, you know, there was definitely probably a little bit more confusion. And I wasn't we hadn't had the results of his postmortem yet. So many questions in your head.
You're not sure you're confused. Everything's different, whereas now it's settled into a new norm and you found a rhythm. So it's going to be totally different.
We were the same with mom. We didn't know what it was.
I remember going to daddy's death certificates. I drove into town to collect it from the birth and death place. I don't know what is actually called. And they just called us back, but they just hand you the certificate anyway there.
And I'm like, oh, my goodness, there's no envelope. There's nothing. That's how you learn. So I think that's I suppose if I was to listen to this podcast and if I was someone that hasn't gone through it and I want to support a friend, I probably would say talk to them all the freaking time and just let them make it their norm, because like choosing coffins or choosing plots of land or going to collect death certificates are not something that anyone wants to do, no matter whether you're 12 or nine to do so.
It's just about making it a normal conversation because unfortunately it is part of life. And so everyone's going to go through it and having that awareness that it'll be you or someone else. And what can you do to support two things?
Thank you so much for guesting on this episode with me. And secondly, thank you for the comments regarding my skin.
This is this is just who I am.
This is just like I don't the first one hundred percent that we've got like this.
I have the vainest person for me. I just disappointed that you don't have the Roller's. I was expecting to see that. So I thought, you know, I am working late.
I just thought, you know, I'd give you a tone down. I didn't want you to feel insecure around me.
I thought, no, thank you so much. No, thank you. I like to think that we never truly lose someone. We learn from them and live our lives to make them proud, just like I live in a way I know my mom would have loved. It's clear Jennifer's father would be hugely proud of all of her achievements. Next week, I talk to Lisa Calhoon. Lisa, story is a really tough one. Her life was perfect.
She had two young children and was happily married to Christopher. He had just been promoted.
They had their dream house and everything was going to plan. Then out of the blue, Christopher fell ill and sadly passed away. Lisa discusses life with our soul mate, dealing with such unexpected tragedy and how she finds the strength for her beautiful children. And people were so unselfish, she said.
When I hear them talking about their sweets, well, why not me? And I think, no, no, no, but why me? Yeah, you know, why me. And, you know, it feels like I've got such an unnatural life at the moment. Yeah. You know where I can I don't know where I fit in.
I have amazing friends and families, family who always look at me to make sure that, you know, I don't feel like that loss person then I don't feel like that third wheeler and stuff like that. But it's hard not to because I'm like, but why? With my family robbed of a daddy and a husband and a best friend and a and a brother and a son and all those things, do you still ask do you still ask why now?
I think it's too hard. You know, I think, you know, if I really sat down, you know, part of me, too, and part of the reason I'm able to get up and get going is because sometimes I just have to think this was God's plan.
And, you know, I if I start to ask why in terms of just life, why in life, if I start to ask why in terms of medical, then I don't know that I would have the same strength every day because there's too much to think about there.