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When I started this podcast last year, it was an exploration of my own grief, I had lost my mum, my best friend, and I couldn't imagine my life without her.


I suddenly had all these feelings of sadness, anger, confusion and guilt. I needed to understand them. So I turned to my friends and people I knew who had been through a similar experience. It was eye opening. We cried, we laughed. We processed that podcast helped more people than I could have imagined. I've been inundated with messages and connected with hundreds of people who have lost loved ones and realised their experiences needed to be shared.


There are still stories that need to be told this season on Death Becomes Them. I meet people who have lost siblings, spouses, parents and children, though the experiences differ. One thing remains consistent. Talking about it is therapy.


Today I sit down with Lisa Calhoon. I find Lisa story so tough because it's a real reminder to make everyday count. Lisa was married to Christopher and they had two beautiful young children. They both are Dream House. Christopher had just been promoted to vice principal and Lisa taught in the same school. They enjoyed the simple things walking their dog holidays and spending time with family. It was after a dinner with their friends that Christopher started to feel unwell and he was soon hospitalized with the flu.


Six days later, he unexpectedly passed away. Lisa talks to me today about mourning her soul mate and how she's coped after such tragic loss.


We've never met before, you seem like such a bubbly, happy, positive person.


Yeah, I suppose I probably always was, you know, prior to Lisa and Christopher and I think my friends would probably always describe me is that I definitely lost myself, OK, but at the same time, I feel maybe this last. Like some days I feel like that happy, bubbly, chirpy person. Some days I don't. But I definitely think I'm getting back to where the real me is.


I've always found that. And I say this. People are sick of me saying this. The reason for doing the podcast was because no one talks about grief. No one talks about, you know, the D word death. Why do you think that is?


I think maybe people are afraid. I think, you know something I find and a reason that I really wanted to put it out there was I think people don't like to talk about it because it's uncomfortable. I know for me at the start, everybody was freaking to want to know when I was going to return to my normal life. You know, I was on maternity leave and a request for Pasterick. You know, people want to know, but when are you going to go back to work, Lisa?


You know, like, you know, very much like, let's keep going. And I think because people don't like to see. People that be hurt or suffer are suffer and, you know, maybe I know for me, if it was somebody in my family, my life would be easier if I thought that they were just getting on with it. So, you know, it's it's nearly like it's too hard to talk about. With my Instagram.


I could sit for hours and openly talk and I could say to, you know, and openly talk when it comes to family, I can't. Why is that? It's so hard. It's so real. Maybe that's a too. I just think death is just such a scary thing that people can elect. Maybe just. I don't know what the right word is, but kind of just push it to the side and continue with a normal yes and whatever, it almost you know, my process was that with this stuff doesn't really happen to me.


This stuff I see on television, this is stuff I see in the movies. And I almost think I had two choices and choice. One was to stay in bed, to close the door and just stay in darkness.


But I almost knew what my mom wanted because I knew who she was and my mom would not have wanted that. And I used to hate people who used to say, oh, you know, I'm doing that because I know it's what my that person would have wanted.


I said, go, you're full of shit. You're just saying that to make yourself feel better.


And I can imagine as a parent to two very young girls, that has to be and had to have been and probably still is quite a tough road for you completely.


And I guess at the start, like I am where you were talking about there now where you get up and you and you should make them proud and you do for them what they can do and all the things like with Christopher, you know, I have two children or two children and, you know, I know the life he wanted for those children. And I am so determined to give him that life, so determined. So that drives me. But it's taken me a long time to get that motivation.


I went through CBT and am I have my sister move in with me for a year and, you know, really hits a car is like you want people to see how you recover. I don't know the right words, but how you respond to everything that my thing was, you know, my children are always going to have lost their daddy young. It's going to be something that impacts on their life. But I don't want it to define them in a negative way because their mother can't be there to be a safe place for them.


So, you know, and two and a half years on Thursdays, I have to bring my mommy and my sister and say, you know, I need help today. Yeah. Can somebody just come and just take the girls? But most days I know have that drive and that focus to say, right, I'm going to be there safe kids. Yeah. I'm going to give them everything. You know, Christopher was so family orientated. So.


Committed to a good life for economy. The girls to be princesses, and when he got his vice principal job, it was all about getting us our dream home and getting the girls everything they wanted. So I can't that I can't let that be lost. Yeah, but, you know. It takes time, it does, and I you know, it I remember from from from doing the podcast was chatting to someone who was 10 years in to their grief.


But I was realizing stuff they not even thought about. And I was only two years in. There really isn't a time span. No.


Even there's another girl. I don't know if you follow her, but she she's from Derry and she lost her husband really suddenly as well. And I was talking to her the night I met so many people, I actually set up a group. On Facebook, because I couldn't it was so overwhelming. People coming to talk to me because I suppose I can put myself out there, not that I have that many followers or anything, but I suppose upright home life became very well known.


And I started to talk to a lot of people who were a couple of years further on this journey than me and I used to thank God. But when you're two years down the line, it must be it must not be as raw. You seem so far when I was talking to you in the 1980s, maybe five months now, it's crazy that I remember being at your stage talking to somebody at my stage thinking that that was. Like a different kind of stage, but it's not how does it feel now then, thinking what you thought it would be like over two years and now being in the position where it is been over two years?


It's. It's crazy because I've done things I never thought I would ever do again, you know, and I didn't think I would get to the place where I would be independent, you know, I didn't think I'd get to a place where am I supposed I think I start like the trauma, the shock.


Like, I definitely think there's major trauma there with everything that happened. And I don't think I would ever have been able to go back to work, you know. And you did for a bit. And I did. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't think. You know, there's so much things that I've done that I never thought I would ever do again. Yeah. You know, like you surprised yourself that you were able to do it completely.


Do you think in a way, you know that that was Christopher? Yeah, I almost put his hand on your back giving you that little nudge. Yeah, I do.


I actually think that little Paul. Yeah. Kick up the. Yeah. King of the. Glad you said yes because that was very him. Do you know what I mean. And I often think how requests for responded to this. And I know that Christopher would have ensured that the girls were happy and healthy and safe. And I know we would return back to work. And I know as heartbroken as he would have been, he would have been very focused.


So I think part of me actually took over Christopher's personality. OK, wow. Yeah. Because I would have always been crisp. You do that. Yeah. I just figured out that we don't want to do.


He got caught. He was bad cop. I get it. And then all of a sudden, you know, I have to be that person. And, you know, I do think there's his qualities. You know, somebody said to me, like, hey, dude, man, you should be a role model. And I'd say, well, Christopher, because. Hee hee hee hee is who I want to be. So I don't know, we just got things done and he just was so efficient.


Yeah, completely. How has it been for you?


How has 20-20 been for you? Has this whole lockdown situation hindered your grief? Has it helped it? You know how you worked through it?


It's been so scary because Christopher died from the flu. So I mean, this has brought a lot of stuff to the surface for me.


You know, one and I would never really have openly talked about what happened. Christopher. I mean, Christopher was thirty three. He was fat, he was healthy and no underlying health conditions. He took the flu on a Tuesday night. And the following Tuesday with Don Peskov, it was cough and you know, and yeah.


And, you know, I brought him into hospital thinking I need to start the next day with my maternity leave as I brought him into hospital. And when will he be OK? Will I be able to go to work tomorrow? I was packing a bag for us, just thinking everything was going to be OK and normal and get him some fluids and he would be OK. And then I kind of shocked that they didn't want to think about it. I didn't want to talk about it anymore in terms of that aspect of it.


And then covid came out and covered with this virus and everybody was like a horrible reminder to you.


Such a horrible reminder, because a lot of the symptoms they were saying, a lot of the things that they talked about were very much Christopher's symptoms and talked to me about that week, you know, leading up to it, you were living your everyday life as you do, you know, a husband and wife, schoolteachers, two beautiful little girls.


Everything seemed perfect.


Everything was perfect. You just got over Christmas. And it was actually the week before we returned to school to return to school. Christopher was supposed to happen on the Thursday. And then I was going to work in his school and the call for another maternity leave. So we had went out on the Tuesday night. It was very much this is our last hurrah.


Before we go back to Chris for vice principal, vice principal at this time was so I just got in the July, Beth had just been born the July. And the week later, we were actually in the registry office getting Barth's registered to Chris, who got an email to say he had got the graduation team.


So, I mean, we were literally on cloud nine, like, you know, the way people paint a picture of a happy home, a happy couple. Yes, that was us. We just bought our home. Christopher got his job. So, you know, it was perfect. It was perfect.


And people always said like and it's not about looking through rose tinted glasses for me. Like, I sometimes look back and think I was that lucky to find Christopher and have that relationship because it was a short time. Yeah.


You know, but but that was your reality and you're being very honest about it. That's what your life was.


Yeah. So so we decide go in the Tuesday and we had actually friends over from America and stuff and and we haven't it was so crazy even that Christmas was so laid back, so relaxed.


There was no go on, it was just family and Christmas Day with all my family, Boxing Day with all his family. Christopher Turnround just said, how was best Christmas I've ever had. Oh, wow. Yeah. Some ways we got a big, massive family picture of my family with Christopher. And we went out there Tuesday and we came home and for all of a sudden didn't really didn't feel well. He just took a fever and so on.


But it was just it was your typical flu. Yeah. And it's winter. You know, the weather's changing. People feel unwell. People have the sniffles. Yeah, there's nothing unusual there.


And he went to the doctor a couple days ago because he was meant to go back to work. The Thursday, the doctor said, Chris, we've got the flu. You go home with Barbara. And and, you know, there's there's not much that stands out that way, really, because when I look back now, like Christmas decorations were still up. But I remember thinking I think it was Christmas decorations down and and I remember changing the bed sheets.


And I always think about this and change the bed sheets because, you know, yourself, if the flu, you're sweating your house and you end.


And I remember I'm just sayin this feels like heaven.


Oh, yeah. And I remember Nick Barth was five months, Greece with 18 months, and I was running around like headless chicken and make Mr. Christopher was OK, making sure the girls OK here at the Berlin family, they were there, too, and so many times that we kept going. Thank you so much, Lisa. You're the best, mommy. The girls are so lucky. I'm so lucky. And people often say, you know, when you think back to all the things that they said, like, you know, Christopher was very good that way anyway.


But that's how the week went. Maybe in a mommy trying to sort out the two girls not and Christopher wasn't getting any better. And then the sun came up and. Christopher had been up all night, been sick, and I looked at him on the on the Sunday morning and I was like, oh my God, he's not great. He was really my color. And this is the first time I ever talked about this, but I felt comfortable talking to you about it.


And, you know, I think there comes a time whenever you realize that you can talk about that.


Oh, totally. I do think that, you know, I've always said that talking is therapy.


And I you know, I'm a firm believer of when you're ready to, like, get it off your chest. I really believe in that.


So, Christopher, I rang my mom and I said, look, I need a phone ambulance. And I remember that morning phone in the ambulance and it just and I thought annoyed at the way, the way what's going on here. But at the same time, I thought having pneumonia is something that's here. I wasn't not that I wasn't overly worried. I just thought we need to get him sorted. You weren't thinking this was life threatening in any way?


No, not in a million years. Never in my life, because it's one of those things. It doesn't it's not supposed to happen to you know, I thought, you know, I got there and we knew it was the flu and.


I never in a million years, never it was like not a normal Sunday morning waking up because it was like crazy. Sunday morning school was will start next. Christopher wasn't well and so on. And and I remember the ambulance finally coming and it was pure chaos in the house. And I remember turnaround around or something. Is everything OK? Well, I pack a bag and maybe I was just going through the motions and all, but I remember starting to feel scared then.


Right. And without going into too much detail in the broadcast, over a million ambulance and a doctor came up to me and I was waiting to hear what was happening next. And they said, just let me. If you want to phone a priest. You know, I remember the phone number. Yeah, you're probably thinking of what this was about. Yeah, totally.


You know, that's how black and white it kanon was. You know, there probably was conversations before, but that's the thing that sticks out in my head. They took me to the room and I remember being like. Phone braced for what sort of thing, right, and then it all just kind of went all spiraling out of control and.


It literally was that Sunday night the Christopher passed away and he literally we had hoped that we would get him to England, we actually had flights already to go to England and am probably going to England because he had to go on machine for his heart, OK, because that's what ended the heart virus, attacked his heart and tried him.


There were there were Puttnam plans.


And, you know, I just remember Kate just kept it and need to do something like a five month old baby at home, know that this can't happen. And I remember all the plans being Publius, me and him. I said, how long are we going to England for? And they said, once a year. We don't know. It's like my whole world was just falling apart. But I had this adrenaline that just kept me going the whole day and.


I just I remember then being outside the room and I said, you know, what time what do we do now? And then there said to me, she said this, you know, sometimes it's best to stay where we are. And I said, what do you mean? She said, you know, sometimes it's just best to stay in the hospital that you already are. And I knew what she would to me then. And I just remember I went out of the hospital and I just wrecked the whole room, the waiting room, the family room.


I just went mental.


And then it just that was probably just your way of trying to cope because you've held you held it together together on the adrenaline, probably. And you were probably in shock. That was just probably your breaking point.


Did you get a chance to say goodbye? Did you get a chance to say anything you wanted to say? You know, was he able to hear you?


Christopher was awake the whole time. All right. OK, but I don't think we really, really fully understood, even though the worst things being said, it was still very much like he's 33. He fit and healthy.


I've talked to people since who've pulled through, you know, and they're very hard conversations to have. So, you know, it was never a case of he to say your goodbyes now.


And, you know, for me, I'm so thankful for it. It's something I bought with my head.


Did he know? Did he not know me? Part of me truly believes he didn't know. And there was no time for conversation like that because, you know, he was very ill. And and there was we literally I because it was the flu, we were all kind up when we were in an in the night. And Chris was very ill. So, you know, there wasn't much conversation that he was able to have, if that makes sense as well.


And we were all just so focused on trying to get a better, you know, trying to get him well enough to get over. And I remember sitting in the waiting room and the consultant came and said, can I speak to you? And I just said, speak to all of us.


We're all family here. And he says, I think you need to go down. And I just went down. And he wasn't awake at that stage and he literally held his hand. And I kissed his cheek and he died. Yeah. It's also the shock, you know, because I know from our own experience was, you know, I had almost in my mind almost thought, what if mom had been ill and we had six months or we had a year?


And then I thought, well, that's kind of selfish of me to want.


One thing I always said, you know, I've seen other family members suffer and it's been very, very hard. And one thing I always did say with Christopher was like, you know, I was so glad he didn't suffer. Yeah, I was. And I try and take comfort in that because I had one day. Were I look back now and it keeps me. There's trauma there, there's definitely trauma with that one day and I think how do people overcome years and months of it?


And then at the same time, I did listen to a podcast of an interview with Rachel, and she had these letters and she had things for her daughters. Yes. And, you know, I still don't believe that I would have wanted it for Christopher to have been in pain any longer than he would have been. But, you know, I crave those. I crave to have the answers to the questions I never was able to answer. There's no closure.


There's no closure.


And, yeah, I don't I don't believe that you ever get full closure on anybody's death. And but, you know, with two girls so young, I think there's definitely questions. That would be lovely to have answered, are something for them, for, you know, when it is their wedding day. And part of the reason why I started the blog, I don't even know there's a blog are the page is because, you know, it's scary to be an only parent now.


Yeah. And to two such young children that I want them to have something for when they get older from me. Please, God. Like, you know, please God, I'll be the mommy that is there living with them when they have their own grandchildren. But, you know, we didn't have any of that really from Christopher and that where loads of pictures, videos, he was absolutely crazy. So we were so blessed, but.


I think there's maybe and maybe I'm wrong. Is a conflict maybe, and being able to share something from. Of course there is, but also that there's nothing wrong with you wanting that. I think that's a very normal, natural thing, because what you said there is it is a trauma. You're suffering a trauma. And I think it changes you forever.


But like you said, you've become a bit more independent in a way you never thought you would.


And I think that's because Christophers there guiding you with Grace and Beth. What age were they when you lost Christopher? There were super young.


So Chris had literally just turned 18 months now and that was approaching six months.


The fact that they may not remember their dad. How do you deal with the. It's tough, yeah, and even. Because it's tough for me right now in their lives. I mean, it probably makes it easier for what the age that they are totally.


I think that's a good way also of you processing it for them as a mom.


And I mean a conversation I've had with family and friends and then never really understand the true extent of what they've lost last night, which is kind of, you know, there's good and bad to that because Christopher, I feel so deserve to be known by his children. And that's why I try and keep his memory alive. And I'm very open with the girls. And I talk about Christopher. You know, I want daddy to be a common conversation.


I am, but. But I think for me right now is turning four and there's lots of questions how and why there's ownership, but why is my daddy in heaven? Right. And that's tough. So. I can't imagine how hard it would be if they had to be in order as well, but I would take those years and take those years because then what you're thinking is they'll be grieving and going through the same trauma as you.


When she asks why Daddy's in heaven, what do you say?


It's really, really hard. I mean, so Sebti, help me in the fact that I was able to ask the country, I said, you know, maybe this is a very switched on girl. You know, she really is. She's just with it. She's pretty Cristoforetti.


It's so Christopher and and is that is that is that nice for you that she is so like her dad? Yeah. It's kind of upsetting as well because it's like a reminder constantly, like she is so physically like him.


I look at her and I think and it catches me off guard, but I never want her to change somebody that that's never have I ever been told she looks like me. It's always like she is her daddy. And somebody said to me not that long ago was starting to look like you. And I thought, no, right.


You didn't want to know, not me, that I looked like this over forever. So I remember. And CVT, I can say, look, we starting to ask why. I don't know what to say. But they had told me to be very honest and give us like a story, like a timeline of events so I can never ask answer the whys for her. And I, I be very honest. I think sometimes there's no answers. You know, sometimes we don't know why, but we just trust that God, you know, I said God just said it was daddy's time and the daddy's very special and am but CBT had actually told me to have the conversation with her naturally.


But one morning we were watching Charlotte's Web and the spider in Charlotte's website dies and uncreate had been getting really she was very calm, but she kept being really frustrated.


And and I said things like, Daddy's in your heart. You don't want to be in my heart. I want my daddy to be here. And and it was very hard, but and I have something I just need to have this conversation with. This child is confused. And I know that might sound crazy to some people.


Questions for but like this was what was happening in my head because it was you that you were living it. Yeah. So the spider died and literally that morning turned round to me and said, Mommy, did my daddy die? And I said, yes, he did, and and there was nearly an acceptance from that and then both the whys and the highs, and they're very hard, but I think that's a typical four year old.


Yeah, how why where when their little Riddler's, they're constantly asking questions.


And I think us as adults, we read into so much more, of course, because like five minutes, five seconds later, once I give the answer, she's happy enough. She's way I say plants. Yet where's my head?


I'm thinking, oh, my goodness, maybe you're realizing the gravitas of what you're talking about because, you know, Christopher is your your soulmate, your Prince Charming. And he's he's not he's not there. And she's also his daughter. And maybe you're just it's such a hot topic for you, but I kind of it's what Eileen Locklin had said as well when we chatted. It's that I said, how do you get out of bed every day? She said, because of the children.


I don't want the boys to ever when they grow up to ever look back and go, my mom and dad were sad or, you know, our home wasn't a happy place. Do you think in some way having the girls is a blessing and it's the kick up the arse Christopher would give you to get up every morning and try and get on, get on with everything, get on with life. One hundred percent.


And I mean, I think in terms of family and friends, everybody has just been so thankful that the girls that I have, the girls and even that the girls were so close in age and even that we had them like obviously within the 12 months.


And that's pretty quickly, you know, it was even people used to say congratulations for you all.


But the girls, are they like best friends best? Would they be in the same class? No, so am I. She's a 3rd of July and Beth is 18th of July. Oh, wow.


Oh, my goodness. Even the same month. Yeah. Huh. Wow.


Yeah. And so they are the best as friends. They are. They would actually see each other. Join me, my best friend. Oh that's cute. And then whenever they are best friends, it's a pathetic waste.


You and I have a sleepover tonight. I then I guess it's such a princess. Beth, we put more tomboy. So the fight is well right. And Beth is a complete character, so genuinely thinks she's the most beautiful girl in the world. I think all of us need to have a wee bit more grace in our life and maybe all I need I need to spend time with grace to spend their Fairlight. Beth, is it I'm not your best friend and you're not cute.


Cut-throat Grace straight for the jugular. You're not pretty. What was Christopher like as a dad? Was he hands on like, you know, night feeds the kids, right?


I mean, especially what I think with Chris, we were both kind of like, whoa, first baby, what is this for? You know, and with Beth. And then he was brilliant. He loved you. Love being that daddy with the baby girl. Right. You know, and he loves showing her off. And and it was very much when everybody, you know, like I suppose when maybe you aren't kind of child oriented, maybe different people relate to maybe career oriented that time or just doing their own thing.


Christopher was probably the person that was sending you all the pictures, and he's one of those on the night out, which is Christopher put the phone down in twenty days and he was so handsome.


And then especially when Beth came along because he just he acted on all the night face while at work. He was just bounced out of bed. And then he really loved the idea of he was a daddy with the two girls.


I was just thinking that because I've seen the obviously was sporty as well. But did he want a little boy or was he so content having to deal with so content with the girls?


I think, you know, as soon as Beth was born, it was all like, you know, we're still going to have a boy.


And as well, Countach, do you think you would have had more children?


I don't know. I think now he's a really funny time, because after the two girls so close together, I was like, well, I was told, like with having sanctions and stuff, like, it was like, no, no more for a while. And I kind of think at that stage I thought, like, this is perfect. This is our perfect life. We have our home, we have good jobs. We have to have healthy, happy children.


And was nice. It's funny that all my friends are starting a new cycle of the third child. Right. You know, it's like a natural cycle that's happened with so many of my friends and family that I sit back and think now, well, you know, I was robbed of that. Yeah.


You know, no, I mean, I can you know, I really admire your honesty because I was the same, you know, I'm still angry. You know, I'm still just I'm really angry.


I'm angry that my mom's not here. You know, my mom would be sixty three. That's still young. I should be able to ring my mom that I'm now living in Ireland.


And, you know, we're going to have a family more where I was wanting my mom should be with me and I get that completely.


And, you know, maybe that in a really selfish way, although I don't think it's selfish. People will say and people were so unselfish. You say when I hear them talking about their sweets, well, why not me? And I think, no, no, no. But why me? Yeah. You know, why me. And, you know, I feel like I've got such. Unnatural life at the moment. Yeah, you know where I can I don't know where I fit in.


I have amazing friends and families, family who always look after me to make sure that, you know, I don't feel like that loss person and I don't feel like that third wheeler and stuff like that. But it's hard not to because I'm like, but why was my family robbed of a daddy and a husband and a best friend and a brother and a son and all those things?


Do you still ask do you still ask why now? I think it's too hard, you know, I think if I really sat down, you know, pardon me, too. And part of the reason I'm able to get up and get going is because sometimes I just have to think this was God's plan. And, you know, I if I start to ask why in terms of just life, why in life, if I start to ask why in terms of medical, then I don't know that I would have the same strength every day because.


There's too much to think about there. You mentioned earlier that Christopher had said some stuff to you. This has been the best Christmas ever. He wouldn't usually say that you said about that amazing family picture that you wouldn't have always taken. When he jumped into bed. He said, this feels like heaven, you know, to use. And I can see that in that sentence is the one I think that still gets you emotional, obviously.


Do you think they were do you think they were signs? Do you think it was it was it was God's plan. It was meant to be. I don't know.


But, you know, when I was I was actually listening to a your podcast on the way up and you were talking about science. And I don't know that part of me wants to truly believe that people would have said to me, the soul knows, you know. Yeah. For a while until I read an about death and reading about the afterlife. And, you know, I ran to psychics. I wanted to know about all this stuff.


And did you see did you see psychic loads?


I literally went anywhere anybody could get me and I would go, OK, see, that's something that I my sisters went to see I think was a medium or psychic.


I have I've I've I've purposing it's a thing that I still casini produce from this have talked about potentially doing something. Even when I go to talk about it, I think it's fear, I'm afraid, actually going to get beat up.


So I just don't think that I'm I just don't think that I'm ready yet to know anything. And I think that's actually the truth of it, is that I think I'm afraid because I don't I I don't know.


And so bad for me to say I don't know if I want to hear from her yet. I don't know why, because I think that it's just a reminder that she's not around. It's real. Yeah, I think that's the thing. I think that I've said it's just I don't know if I need to hear her and then go home and she's not with me. It's just, you know, for me. Did it it helped you.


So what you're saying night is that part was so hard. The whole it felt like, you know, you're going and you're hoping and please, please, please, please come through. And and then it was the realness and the realisation of if I want to talk, if I want a message from my husband, if you want a message from your mommy, you have to go to another person is what they're saying. Yeah. And then you leave and you think, but but but why can I not take Christopher with me?


And you probably leave quite happy, but also a constant reminder that you need that other person. Yeah. You know, and it's not. Yeah, it's not the same. You know, I think you long for and you want, you know, part of it like I don't know, but I think part of what could be stopping you too is because you so badly long and want for something that to have it and then be given up again. It's just it's too hard.


Yeah. I also think it means that I'm quite good at saying I'm fine and I can I can park my grief at certain points and my sisters and you know, because we all humor has been a great way for me to heal. And in my recovery, I don't know if you find humor, but I would say Christopher was a funny guy. I'm getting the vibe. Yeah. And for me, it's that my sisters will always say to me that I've not had it yet.


I'm going to hit a wall. I'm going to have that break down. And my sister calls it my little house of cards as they always go. And it's got it's going to come crashing down. And they obviously say it with humor, but they they are fearful of that. And I don't know, you know, like when you said when you were in that waiting room, you wreck that room that I have no heart.


Yeah. And I release like that. I may not. I may not, because our trauma is very different.


But at the same time. So CBT. Yes, I go to like I remember like I had that one I pushed that day and then all of a sudden I just had to gather myself up together and it's like, it's like, oh yeah ok.




You know, you go in and and I remember sitting my CBT and I said like, when am I going to have that breakdown when the realization of what's happened. Yes. This isn't easy, you know, in any way in this life. Look easy, grief, easy. It's not, of course, when, when all those feelings that I know blackened up and I really think like I've lost it all the way. Maybe I feel the same.




So when's that going to come out and can you give me a date time. Yeah I'll do it to live here completely.


But she would say to me, you know, people are built differently. So one thing that I think about this often, she says, you know, some people are built and and they have a strong core and they can carry that within throughout their lives. And, you know, you may feel like it makes sense that one day you're going to have this big time.


I just think it's inevitable. But again, maybe like you are, do you still feel the same then?


I mean. Some. I don't know, actually, I think it feel stronger to you. Yeah, I do. I feel like I listen to people who say things like it gets easier with time. I don't feel that. I don't feel the easiness. I feel the intensity. And then everything gets so much more. Whoa, like, this is just crazy. But I do feel like I am the stronger and stronger, you know, and I don't feel like I'm going to have that.


And I used to feel so strongly, but I think I'm just going to my children will just grow up with me in the corner, just not able to know mommy or daddy is what your fear is.


But I don't I don't have that feeling no more. I mean, there's definitely days where I just think. I just can't do this, but I somehow always seem to pick myself up, I seen because clearly I was stalking your Instagram. I saw her here and saw a message that you had put up and it just struck a chord at me. And I didn't know what you meant. And you said some days I feel like quitting. Yeah. And then it was then you had a pick of the two girls.


Can I ask you what you meant by that? I mean, at the start, they got really tough, I didn't I didn't want to. And. It's really hard. I mean. I did want to quit, you know, I just wanted to just fade away and be nothing and not be here anymore and. I don't feel like that anymore, thank God I feel the complete opposite, but I mean, I think this last six months has probably been the toughest that I've had.


And maybe it's because the shock and the trauma, you know, have we're off to a certain extent that some days I just do want to I just I want to just. Only for the guards, if you ask me the question, it gives the guards keep me so strong, but there's some days where it's just so overwhelming and it just turns Dare's can sometimes turn into the way. Can you just feel like I can't do this anymore? I can't be that strong person, you know, I just want to lie here and just be nothing.


Does that make sense? Yeah. And then it's like I look at them and I think, how could I ever be nothing? Because everything to them. And of course, what does that make sense?


Yeah, of course you're the you're their mom. You're their everything.


Yeah. So I don't know. Aquitaine really means because I want to be here for as long as I can for the girls. I didn't always feel that way. I think at the start, you know, I very much kind of was like, you know, just let me go and be with.


I thought that I didn't say it publicly because maybe I was embarrassed to say it and it just resonated with me that you would said it. And I just thought to myself, I get what she's saying because I thought to myself about going to be what mom? And it's this because I've always found myself with it is that it can be very dark and it can take you down a very dark path. And, you know, I even thought and this is so stupid to say I even actually thought was mom being punished because I was gay stupidity cause she wasn't.


But it was just it was it was me trying to. Oh, maybe that's why maybe, you know, and like, I, I was just, I think a natural part of it.


The whole reason thing is to question what your input was there and the question everything. You know, what did I do? You know, I'm like, why did they deserve that? Was it something I don't like? I completely do that as well. And so I completely get what you're saying. And it's TARAND. This is grief is hard work.


You know, I always say if it was a color, it'd be black or red. I don't know why I thought black and red.


I just thought it would been. And, you know.


Yeah. And I think what you said, you know, I'm not blessed with children yet, but, you know, if it wasn't for my husband, a few you know, I've only got a few friends and my family because I think, like with you is that you need someone and something to focus on. And I think it's a real blessing. You have the girls because imagine if you didn't know. I couldn't imagine. I don't want you felt like giving up are quitting.


Maybe you would. Yeah. You know, what kind of person was Christopher? I think he was funny. I don't know why I'm thinking he was a funny guy. Yeah.


And even you, Sam and I could just imagine him sitting here and I go, Yeah. And I'm so funny. Right. OK, I could kind of. Yeah, he was so like he was he was all about it just having fun and friends and family and he was always like the bubbly loud, not loud, not like anybody, but he was always good fun.


He was always and attractive so. Oh yes. It's not gonna fit on your Instagram. I really need to sort of need to take my phone.


It's so funny because, you know, he will be over Natalie. He and some people will write to me and say, oh, you are such a lovely couple. Yeah. You know, Bobbie and Ken, I'm sorry to have people like God. That's just Christopher would be just I can just picture.


He looked like he had a tattoo or a sleeve. He did. He had lice. He had a full tattoo, you see, and one arm. And then he had his number was twenty three. Twenty three was the twenty three. No he just loved twenty people. Michael Jordan. Oh right. I see a sports thing.


I watched Michael and I don't know if Liverpool player. I'll be fine. I'll be fine. I did know why. I just thought Oh Michael. Oh it was rather nice to know exactly what to do.


I don't know. We're looking at Arthur. I don't know if you know about football. Will you shot up?


He's like I stop whispering. Oh my God. Yeah. Because Arthur is totally crazy. I'm not a tattoo. But I was thinking because Christopher Vice Principal Chuck with the tattoo was been what's been a cool vice principal and a cool teacher like covered in Tatts.


He would have been. He was.


And Christopher was very much his own person too. So it was kind like, this is me. You like it, you don't like it, you know what I mean? And you know the respect for Moniteau, like he covered his tattoos and everything, but he at school. No, he didn't hide anything. He didn't try to hide them and things like that. But he actually had a stolen angel and this lovely girl on his arm in the ring.


He used to say it was me, totally wasn't me.


And it wasn't it wasn't features. But no, he was he was very he was very cool, you know, and he was very loyal. Yeah. And like, when he's your friend, he was your friend and and just a real, genuine person going back to, you know, the day are leading up to it to the week.


It's not so strange how your life can change. Yeah.


And just like that, that's also something that keeps me motivated. Nick, when you see I'm, you know, first hand how fragile life can.


They him what age you are, I mean, there's a thing like, do you want to have regrets? One thing I feel so blessed about is I don't have regrets for Christopher. You know, we had a happy. Experts are happy we had a happy, healthy life offered to. And I'm grateful for that. And I look at other people's stories and I see sadness and so much sadness. In so many people's lives that, you know, sometimes you just have to take it and appreciate what you have.


And I used to not get that. I used to only see what I didn't have. And it's been two and a half years is a short time. But I think I've learned so much because now I can look and even this morning, Beth woke up at three o'clock and it was like my my.


And like any other day you could be like, oh, God. And I went in and I just lay and I kissed Joey Cheek in a room that we had. And I thought, Oh, I'm so lucky in that sense.


I know and I fully appreciate life because I've seen what Christopher has lost. Yeah. And that makes sense.


Was that a mindset change for you or is it something that happened naturally?


I think it took a long I think so. I started the therapy in nine months after very reluctantly. And and I remember my first words. I remember my daddy really want me to go.


And I remember at that stage, my family being around me while I lay in bed, sent me to come on.


Do you think they were worried about you completely? Right.


And that's the stage where I really felt like when, you know, on that stage where everybody's like, we need to do something, we need to do something nice. Yeah. And I remember sitting go until Almquist was, you know, I think I was going to come back for Christmas.


Right. And that was my mindset. And you fully believed he was. And I felt that. And I still don't fully let myself believe that I'm never going to see him again, because I think you have to kind of live in a world sometimes. Yeah. You know, I mean, maybe this sounds crazy and like maybe he'll appear to me someday. And you set my bed and I have one of those lovely stories that you hear the people talking about.


But I started CBT with a major push for my family. And I suppose somewhere deep down, I kinda knew I had to for the girls. And I remember my first conversation. I looked at the woman. I said, I don't want to be happy, don't try and make me happy, and I just want to live my life. I make my parents happy.


And I remember one of my last therapy sessions with her. I said, I'm ready to be happy now. Right.


Do you think you were afraid to be happy because you want remembering Christopher?


I think there's comfort in a really strange way of feeling hurt and sadness, you know, because it's a reminder of how much you love that person. Yeah. And I think maybe is it that if you don't feel that hurt and sadness, do you not love that person that much?


But I think you learn that.


You know, I remember like, literally smiling one day and thinking, I'm smiling because I know Christopher really wants me.


Yeah, he wants you to be happy.


And I don't think people fully understand, like you said earlier, you know, you you really your life becomes about making them proud and and doing right for them. My life is one hundred percent of that in terms of Christopher and the girls. That's my life. That's my life. Christopher and the girls.


And sometimes I do.


And I smile because I want I want Christopher to be happy to some extent, not totally, because it's like I feel now and I've been in situations where people and I've reacted in a way I know my mom would have wanted me to react, you know. So in a sense, I'm doing it for her. And maybe that's not your purpose, but maybe now you're doing stuff to make him proud and make him happy. But I think it'll make you shine more, because if you locked in a certain area now, you have him giving you the kick up the arse.


Are you were you a religious or a religious family?


I mean, I think. Probably your typical Irish family in terms of Communion's conformations weddings, funerals, and, yeah, I mean, do I go to Mass, do I pray and all that stuff? I find it really tough. Right. Whereas Christopher was I had to break out, you know, he used to say that we didn't school and he said I really good and I'm really religious. And I said, because if you don't go to Mass all the time, says, I could be a big man with an understanding of what to do.


You do know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah.


And I don't know that I, I mean, I really want to believe I really want to believe. I feel like. I need to believe. Because it makes it easier to think that you're going to be reunited with him, with him.


And in another sense, sometimes I think it's so far fetched.


Where do you think he is? The girls are saying he's in heaven. Hmm. Do you think he's in heaven? Do you think mom's in heaven? And the girls always say we got matériel. At least nine ones turning 10 November to the girls are nine the next year.


And they think nanny Rosie is on the cloud and she's mom's obsessed with drinking tea like 15, 20 cups a day. And Mom, it's such a sweetheart. And she's eating bonds, actualisation, cake. And I part of me, you know, thinks actually.


Yeah, yeah, that's my vision, because hearing it from the children and that's when I think about it. If you were to envision where Christopher is and what he's doing, what would you think I would think is with us.


Right. I would think is with me when I put the guest bed. Yeah. And and I would think he's with me when we're with all our friends. And I literally visualize him sitting here right now because when we're talking about him, he feels so real. And I think, you know, for me something like sometimes I feel like he's not real anymore. Whereas when we talk about him, I literally can see him with his baseball cap. And, you know, I visualize and being beside me.




And that helps you. Yeah, I guess I also really want them to be having, of course, these totally, completely, I feel like, you know. Ideally, he's in heaven, but he's able to be with us as well.


Yeah, and that's why I really want him to be and and I really hope I mean, I think if I really, really believe that Christopher was happy and I would have a lot more contentment from seeing the medium or the psychic that you went to see, did you did you get anything from them that made you feel he was at peace or he was happy and think, oh, that make it easier?


I mean, a lot of them got really, really spot on like one year. And this was like at this stage, I mean, my Instagram isn't massive, so it's not like I would walk in anywhere. People go, oh, look, there's an all out there.


Well, I would because I'm always in your dreams. I know your best friend. Oh, yeah. I'm telling you. And I've already been sending pictures of Starbucks t this morning.


I bought your T like some of them were able to actually say to me, who's Christopher? And he doesn't want you to be sad. And being able to say, you know, the one thing he wants you to know is he's with you and the kids and it's happy. I mean, from all the books I've read and everything is well, they always say that they're happy. You know, the mediums have all I've never walked away from it thinking.


Oh, my God. Whispers Not happy, right? That's for sure. Yeah, if anything, it's like, well, they really got him and, you know, they really got his personality because he was so energetic and so vibrant. And any time anybody talked about Christopher, it was with a smile on his face, like, you know, he's a character that one and complete a hit is in past tense.


And yeah, I struggled with that.


Yes, I'm the same sometimes. And I've been coming through airports, you know, leading up to Christmas. And people say, oh, my God, you're obsessed with Christmas and your mom is your mom going to be doing the big dinner? I'm like, yeah, and for those seconds, it's nice. Two days ago, I was saying to the girls, how's mom?


And the three of us found the kitchen huffing going, it's not like some what? We laughed. Somebody actually said, never sit and talk. And this person knows my brothers called Connor and so his four aunts and their names were supposed to have the sea at the start.


It's the sea. And somebody said to me, So have you seen Christopher lately?


And there's a guy loads to me it's not funny, but yeah, I was supposed to respond, but I almost feel like in those moments it is funny.


I think it's very funny that I know my mom is past two years and Arthur and I were in the duty free and I said, I'm going to get these chocolates for mom. And I picked up the bite to give it to him.


And then I went, Oh yeah, I can't put it back, but I kind of like that.


So, yes, that's a I think a lot of what got me through and the first maybe year was the whole like like I use Lemon, thank God.


What time will he be Hilma to know me are cook the dinner and think, oh there's four o'clock, you'll be coming home soon.


And for those minutes of those seconds, you know, I just let myself believe I agree that that was because I needed that. And Christopher's poor mommy, she, she, we paid for Paul in America and all that stuff. She said that letter head think that if he needs to be in America for her, you know, it's Koeppen to let you do what you have.


Well, I mean, I think for me, living in L.A., I moved to L.A., we lost momentum. I start living in Los Angeles for over a year. And in a way, I think that's what in a way helped me kind of not pretend pretends the world works. I'm not a child, but it helped me deal with the fact of I'm living away from home.


You have what you live in a different reality, a different reality. What a time difference. It's very different scene that when I came home, I started to process it more and I moved homeless last intentionally moved.


But I was homeless last November for work. And we've stayed. We've you know, we've not come back. So I feel that when I'm around more, maybe it's healthier for me to be processing it.


Yeah, I think it takes time to process as well. And it's taken me a long time to even let some thoughts of, like, even Christopher's dad, you know, like those thoughts know it. It's healthy if they come up and just sit with it. I used to block it out like two feet away. And I think that caused a lot of damage for me mentally because I really struggled. I sit with at night and they let it go.


Do you enjoy talking about them?


I love to hug them. Yeah, I'm the same mom. Yeah. Yeah.


I mean, I love the name of your podcast, you know, I really love because I think my life was always Christopher and, you know, I think no more so than ever. My life has become so much about him. And in grief, yes, but also, you know, I need like it's like when we ran the marathon and I really wanted to get out there and I had three hundred people, 340 people sign up to out and we have sixty thousand pounds.


And the reason I wanted to do that was because I wanted this community of Christopher. Everybody wanted to talk about Christopher. Yeah.


How soon was that after you lost Christopher that you run the marathon and.


She's working out in the figures now, she's like work for months. Oh, wow. Yeah, and you found that helped. It definitely helped because I had like you said, you had to have the topic. Yeah, I had this community that we call twenty three. Twenty three. And it was everybody who just wanted to do right by Christopher Tichina. I kind of said, I want to carry on something. I want his school to have someone in his memory.


Yeah. And I had all these people the day the sun shone so brightly, which was lovely, pure pain in the arse from my horse.


That was Chris having a laugh at you. One hundred percent, Lisa.


Yeah, but it was it was this community of people that loved Christopher and wanted to remember Christopher. And then and that helped me through the first few months.


You know, you think about him every day. No way out of line. I said it's my Instagram. I think about him every minute of every day.


Yeah. For me, it's morning and night. I away every morning and every night. And sometimes I may not think about Mom, really, I may not like I want to be honest about that because that's that's how I'm processing it.


But, you know, it'll be the morning and the night. It'll be the morning. And sometimes I wake up expecting to get a text and I don't or you know, and at nighttime I still say good night to her, which is very strange. But some day during the day I may not. But morning and night.


Yeah, I suppose your life is so busy and you know, which I think is a blessing. I, I think you know, and it's Centonze question, you know, that word particular that I feel like I feel like now I have a purpose, you know, and I'm back living in Ireland and I almost feel like am I on the path I'm supposed to be on?


And I completely get that. I actually had a conversation with the girl a few days ago about the path. And this is not the path I want to be on. And I like my path, if I could choose would be completely different.


But we can't I don't choose them not. And the path I'm on now for what has happened in my life is definitely the path they can go. Whereas before I said I was so lost. I know, I know what I am. I'm a mom. I know.


And I think eventually I believe so again. Yeah, I think it'll take time. But I think anybody with two young children as you and me and they're so young being so young.


Have people asked you or have you even thought about yourself moving on, you know, getting married again or, you know, having more children or having a boyfriend and dating? How do you feel about all of that?


Right. Like one hundred percent. Honest. Yeah, I have no interest. And, you know, like you remember earlier on. And if I was to do it by people, Ken wanted me to return to some sort of normal life. I had people like to Christopher's works and me. You're still young. You find some else.


Wow. I mean, I was inappropriate, I think inappropriate. But yeah, I genuinely think it's people uncomfortable with death and uncomfortable with it. I was 30 when Christopher died, so I mean to that I was two years younger and people I think just were very uncomfortable with the fact that I was a young girl and with two babies who was potentially going to grow old by herself. And I mean, it's a question that comes up quite a lot.


And and I have different reasons for saying I am not interested. First of all, I love my husband. I love him. I can't imagine ever meeting or loving somebody is when I tell you I think about Christopher every minute of every day. I do. I genuinely, genuinely believe that he's my soulmate and he's the expectations of man. It would be way up here, you know, he's pretty tall, pretty tall. I don't think anybody would ever.


Meet my expectations right against Christopher and then on a completely misguided way. I wouldn't want and I've said this to my friends because I think my friends, you know, of times have said to me, I said, could you actually watch me with somebody else? And I'd say, But, Lisa, we would want you to not be by yourself.


And I thought, oh, no, I don't like that. But when they said that when I've actually thought about my head, you know, imagine me. My parents are only three and four. And I like hypothetically meeting somebody and being in a relationship for two years. And it didn't work out. And then we had no relationship for two years.


And then by the time the girls were only 10, have I introduced three men into their lives. You know, the reason I built myself up to be the strong is because I want to give them a stable, happy, safe environment. And, you know, I'm not open to letting anybody come in and break them.


Do you think potentially you could be when the girls were older, say the girls are 18 at college, you're going to be in your 40s.


Do you know what like this is? I know I don't you honestly and I say this with every part of my heart to see if I get to to make my day in. Or and I have never met anybody else, I think I would be happy. Oh, my goodness.


Yeah, yeah, I, I also got someone on my Facebook and I don't know if you've ever seen this, but I and people think that's sad. But I don't I have my therapist say, Christopher, it's him I want to be with. And I know that maybe things morbid as well, but my life now I feel is a journey to being back with him.


And I don't mean that in a way where I'm like, let's do this, do this, do this because I want to be there. Yeah. You know, I mean, like, you know, let me enjoy it. It's like, OK with the girls. The girls have brought so much happiness that I never thought would be possible again. If they can continue to do that and I please God, me too. I just see my life as me bringing my girls to where they need to be before I have my resting place for Christopher.


Yeah, because you it's the word and the term. You use a soulmate. Yeah. Quite a lot.


Again I was on your Instagram and you that he is your soulmate. One hundred percent.


Yeah. And like I just genuinely like. I will be sad if I ever thought about anybody else. Yeah, I would, yeah. You know, I think a lot of people will be surprised when they hear that. But I think what I think needs to be respected is your complete honesty. And like even if I'm saying this to Rachel as well, even if you wanted to make sure you were in a relationship or if you were to fall in love again and you have more children or get married, it's no one else's business.


I know what you mean. And I've actually talked to people who have been in a situation of Greece, met and then said to me, you know, I wish my we find something because it makes life easier for them to say. Hypothetically, both grew up to have the job that you have and they travel the world to make it harder to leave mommy at home. You know, and that's a hard thought as man and grown old by yourself and maybe, you know, not knowing where life brings you what your capabilities are when you're older.


That's scary. But at the same time, you know what I really want to be? I want to be that woman. When people turn around, go see them that yes, she can.


Yes, she takes us.


And I want to be that I want to I want to be that kickass person.


Yeah, I think you are. Yeah, I think I think you're I think when I first you know, I've met you are obviously glamorous, eh. But I thought maybe shy or what. You're you're not, you're very strong and I think you're probably stronger and more independent than you think.


Yeah. I think than I ever realized I could. Yeah. And my daddy actually put up a quote a few days after Christopher passed away and he says, you don't know how strong you are to being strong is the only choice, you know, and that's my only choice tonight. Yeah. You know, and I want to be a fighter.


I think you are a fighter. Yeah. I think the girls give you I don't say great purpose, but I think they do in a sense of you know, and I think also, Christopher, is that is that hand on your back, you know, reassuring you, but also maybe pushing you for anyone listening to this? Anything you could say? That could help them or something that I know it's a hard question, but I always like to ask anyone something that worked for you.


For me, it's been talking.


Yeah. You know, about Mom. Yeah. I definitely think what helped me was, you know, I took things at my own pace. So, you know, people would say, Anacleto, when are you going to go and look at him? Like at the start with simple things like, you know, daily, simple things like just getting up by the bed and doing a lot. It's tough and you do it. But the people have the expectations that they want you to go out even for coffee, you know, when you're going to meet your friends or when memorial cards, headstones, all those things are so hard.


But I never pushed myself. You know, I took things at my own pace. I think if I had ever been let myself be pressure from other people to do things I wasn't ready for, I think I could have. So I could have crumbled easily and could have. But I think that's for Christopher. Maybe give me the strength to say stop. I'm going to do things when I'm ready to do things. Until then, you just need to let me be, you know, and I'm very lucky that he had a circle of people who never pushed me.


But I think it's so important to listen to your own head and your heart and know what's right for you. Like I always said, my friends, like when we're talking about anything, I say, yeah, but, you know, in your heart, you know, you know, you always know in your heart you're one of those.


Should have another drink, you know, change this. Lisa, for me, a glass of champagne. Would you say there's color back in your life. You see color whereas you didn't see it before.


I there's definitely happiness that I never thought I would have in terms of the girls.


Right. And, you know, sitting here having a conversation with you is lovely. You know, it's nice to be able to sit and things like that. I never thought I would ever do again. So there's definitely I mean, I don't want to think like there's life after death and loss and all that, but in a sense.


So I don't want anybody to sit and listen to this podcast and think we've got, like, you know, I couldn't do that.


Yeah, it's good. Easy for her. Good for her. Yeah. And I find that very tough because people still say to me, you know what, I couldn't live your life. Or if my husband died, well, I wouldn't be able to do what you can do.


But you can. But you don't know either. And you don't know. I don't like surprises you, you know, and I'm on a completely different path job wise. You know, I am not the person or in the police or anything that I thought I was going to be. But life has surprised me along the way. And I think Christopher has every part to play in that. Yeah. And and I do. I do think. I mean, I don't want to.


Life is hard, you know, this very heavy cross and I don't want to I do want to play that down, you know, any sort of way. But, you know, when you take it and you own it, like you say and you respect that life is fragile and you appreciate what you have and you're grateful for what you have, then you light color back into your life. Does that mean. I agree?


And also, before we wrap up, just to point out, I kind of have met you and Christopher before both of you came to a celebrity Big Brother eviction back in around 2012.


And you probably going, oh, my God, it's so stunning in real life. Look at him. Yeah.


Do you know why we were there and we were going and I'm like, I'm like security. How funny, though. And eight years later, we're here having a conversation. Isn't it really funny how it's just like.


Yeah, yeah. Like, I, I think well it's not that strange.


I think it is kind of so bizarre for that to you know, I don't know how you can warm up. Yes. Before the break. Yeah. We have a paramedic up obviously.


Thank you so much for sitting down today and talking to me.


And I think, you know, what I like about doing this is that everyone's journey is so different. And the stuff that we've spoke about, I've not even realized. I think you are super strong. You love your husband, your two little girls. I think it's great they give you purpose. I'm thrilled you're not a quitter and I think you definitely are a fighter and never doubt yourself about your potential. I think a lot of people will quite enjoy our little conversation.


So, Lisa, thank you so much. Thank you so much. I really, really enjoyed this. Thank you. Thank you. When listening to Lisa story, it's easy to feel overwhelmed and scared.


It's unnerving to think about the fragility of life and how vulnerable it can make us.


But it's clear from Lisa that she's so happy to have had Christopher even for a short time. And despite the pain of his passing, she feels so thankful that she experienced such a huge, huge love.


Next week, I Tuba's Aswani Bars is a total family man and opens up about his feelings around his father's passing and he struggles with grief.


I always had this picture that a grave is just it's nothing to me. It's bones. It's there's no one there. So why would I go there? She's not there and I'm not going to see her again. You know, there is no heaven. This is my attitude. So she's not 13, but this was as soon as she died, I was done with religion.


I was like, I don't believe I believe we live and we die in that sense right now. Somewhere along the way, I've kind of found my own spirituality with stuff. But I, I couldn't understand why I would sit at a gravesite and talk to a stone. And then the thing that used to annoy me, I went to a funeral and there was this huge tombs, this huge, huge graves, massive graves. And then it was like I was standing on the grave.


I was like a little cross that I'm standing on.


And I thought he was dead even in death. It's just I know where this guy was. What was so important about him compared to this person. It should be like, you know, Washington, where all the graves to look the same, you know. So there was something I just was venomous about that I just didn't like graves.