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I make a suggestion I am I wouldn't tell guys about that board. Well, I just told you and hundreds of thousands of people. But no, I'm a little scary. It's a medical board and everybody's got.
Hi, guys. Hi, guys. Welcome back to another episode of Girl's Got to Eat. Welcome back. You got nothin. I got nothing. Is it? Oh, I feel like I got its oats. Labor Day. Oh, happy Labor Day.
Happy Labor Day, y'all. Oh, God. We got to respect everybody that has been labor. And what Labor Day about laborers. Yeah. You don't know about people. That work is about people that work in this country my whole life. Do you not do as if we're offending somebody? I really don't know. Look, I know this is over. I know already Mateo and July 4th Labor Day.
OK, listen, I know about other stuff, OK? All right, let's sing some of our partners things to ritual for supporting girls. Got to eat better. Health doesn't happen overnight. Daily changes can lead to big results. So start small rituals offer you 10 percent off your first three months at ritual. Dotcom's legs start your ritual today. And thanks to feels for supporting girls that he feels has me feeling my best every day. And it can help you to become a member today by going to feels dotcoms and you'll get fifty percent off your first order with free shipping.
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I put it there because I can't say get quip over. I can't do it. My mouth won't let me do it. Yeah. I'm glad I took control of the side. Yeah. I actually moved it into your box. That's what, that's what he said.
Oh well I'm excited about feels I've been, I've been feeling myself and taking my feels what you asked to do it.
I have to do it. I've, I've been using it. I've got my files on me at all times, just getting ready for I just go to sleep. I smoked a little weed last night.
Oh well we every night I'm not sure I feel sharper than ever. Yeah. I tell people why I live in my life, I, I am actually I have been working out every day since I committed to it. I actually have not committed to anything this much in ages. Yeah. I've actually never worked out this consistently in my whole life.
I've worked on eight times but I, I've worked out for days in a row now. Took two days off because you and I had like a nice little weekend and a birthday girl. Yeah. Too hard. Don't don't burn yourself out. Is that possible. Yes, just it.
Are you going to be my friend if I post no days off. Oh just so hard. But I got all the gear, I got bike shorts with pads. I got a gel cover on my, on my bike. I met the part I agreed to the part of the workout phase where I do a class and then I bike. I like bike to relax. Oh that's my come down. Yeah. But I'm feeling good. I see green every day this week I'm working out.
I will say I'm not, I haven't noticed any changes in my body. I get stressed out and I'm like, oh my God, I've worked out for what it's worth. I mean it's like I ate a salad once I get my skinny at but I just I don't. And I prided myself my whole life on never being one of the people that complains about shit continuously all the time and never does anything about it. I've never done that with boyfriends.
I've never done a jobs. And so when I'm feeling like I don't look good and I feel like cellulite is appearing in places I've never seen it before, I do not want to continuously talk about it constantly because I have been and I'm at least like proud to do something about it. I woke up this morning. I was excited to work out this morning. Yeah. That is such a great quality of you. It's like you're never going to be out here complaining and not doing anything about it and you're not out here continuously talking about you like type two things to me.
Maybe you're in your head a lot about it. I am in my head all day, every day about it. But I also like I think it stopped me from wanting to date. And I, I have been talking to a lot of people about it. Yeah. You know, that's what you're doing something about it. I'm so happy for you. Thank you. Ladies out here doing spin classes, wearing bike shorts and sweet green. So we're the same person.
So I'm actually it's been a long road. I just wanted to, like, really manipulate you before you realized I was a single white female. I wasn't even invited on that trip to Aruba two and a half years ago.
Oh, it's been a long con. Oh, my God.
When I asked you start this because you were like, the plan is the rain is dirty. John, when we got back to New York after Aruba and we went out to dinner at that restaurant, I actually just paid the chef for that restaurant to pretend like you did a great job because I didn't feel like you were being pushy, like you really have done a great job. It's finally happening. It's been three hours now that we share a bank account.
Now, here's part of my family, like you have made yourself indispensable in my life and now you can't back out. You'll never have a blush like this. I don't have a bush at all. And I'm jealous. I would love to have a bush. You get back in hair plugs on your on your pussy, you know, sometimes pussy, but I don't do it for our three year anniversary.
How do you fully morph into me? Got a bigger bush as he blogs. That woman's going to come in for policy blogs with the shield over her face like she did with your books.
Oh my God. We talk about our show. Oh yes. I want to give you credit because you have always really taken the lead with our live shows and we traveled the country. You're the one that really, like, writes the outlines. Of course I help and I go to the shows. But you really. Such a visionary between our live shows, you're such a visionary between all the dance performances we have at the shows and you're just you're really good at knowing what will hit, because there are some things that's really funny between me and you, but won't have for a crowd.
You're very good at it. So you planned this. You did so great. You made sure we had amazing equipment. You made sure that we had people here helping us with the equipment. So I appreciate all the things you did. Thanks. Yeah, it was. We had our virtual live show. I'm just going to say this right now before we get into it. You can still purchase it and watch it, probably if you're listening Monday, probably through this Thursday so you can go.
The link is in our bio. I put in our bio last night. And if you noticed and you guys can go to our our Instagram link on our bio and buy the show and so watch it. We opened it with three dancers. They are girls we've had before they help. They were part of the Dancing the Open, our Boston show, Janelle, Alicia and Tania, and they opened with the lap dance. And it was so fun.
We just wanted to keep our word. We wanted to keep it on brand of what dancers. And we had special guests, former guests, the show Friends of Ours, Andrew Colin, Francis Ellis and Beatrice Dixon, also my podcast, Soul Mate. Yeah, it was it was just really fun. WHITSTABLE As we did in this apartment, thousands of you guys tuned in and had parties together. I really was like choking up. I want you to talk about this.
You were like, so emotional. I was like I just I saw I mean, you guys seemed like it was small gatherings, was never more than like three or four girls. Yeah. Everybody had these parties. I'd be charcuterie spreads. They had big snacks, bread, sushi. They had like all their white Klausener wine. It just like sometimes I forget, like what this show has done for this community and how much they mean to us.
I never forgot. But you know how it's connected other people with each other and people had like these beautiful girls night and they projected it on the screen and they play along with us. Would never have I ever. And I loved seeing the Instagram stories of everybody's like laughing and yelling at the TV and like it just was this really special thing. And I miss being in front of you guys. I know.
But we are trying to do whatever we can to get back out there. We are working on to get back out work, get back out there. We don't fucking care. We're going to do some venues that will probably be shut down the week after we leave. Like we're just like what we see comedians doing out. They're doing outdoor shows. People are traveling and they're doing shows. And we want to be a part of it. So stay tuned.
Hopefully we'll have something here soon. That will be an outdoor show. And we're we're going to be at the forefront of whatever people are doing, or I guess we're not, because some people have been used to it. But like, we are going to be the forefront after people are doing who are going to be somewhere in the middle of people to the forefront. But stay tuned for that.
I, I love the show so much. I echo everything you said. It was like we we dressed for the show like you had your titties out your black jumpsuit. Right. It came over. I was already dressed in my blue camel toe jumpsuit. I like what I opened the door.
You, like, teared up. We were so emotional. I just I like I was sitting on my couch before I came over and I was like thinking about all the stuff that we usually do before live shows. And we would like to be with our friends have got to dinner and people backstage with us and getting dressed together. And we always have people like either we go to Drybar, we have like glam squad come to our hair and it's like such a special ritual.
And I like I just I haven't done it with you in so long. I know. So you guys can still buy it again. The link is in our Instagram bio and we'll maybe we'll do another story or something to swipe up. I want to say it, my best guy friend Rob really helped us out with like I mean, he's like a tech guy. So he helped us with, like, our setup and everything. And we had to like a little bit of audio malfunction.
He stepped right in and fixed it right away and he did the lighting and everything. You got the logo on the screen and he also just moved into my building. He's been back and forth between here on the West Coast, and I haven't seen him since your Super Bowl party. That's crazy. Which is so before he came back his place a few weeks ago. And I mean, you're the maid of honor. That was the best man wedding.
Yeah, I love him and his wife, if you want an impression of him. Dylan did an impression of him on Dylan's episode, I think.
Oh, you're breaking up, Dylan. Oh, my God. It had to happen. Dylan last night texted me.
He was like, I want to say anything. But a lot of you were asking me why I wasn't on the live show. Yeah, I heard that people want to Dylan so noted, guys, we we will make sure happens. But he he's been here. We've spent like every day together because he's about to go back again and he moved into my building. And so now we're like neighbors and just feels like friends like the show. And it always should have been.
And I've just been thinking it. I've gotten so close with my brother the last few months, especially this summer. He's been helping me out with a lot of things. I've been looking at buying a home I'm not going to go into right now.
But and then like and then we have Frances and Andrew and like all these guys around us, we just hype our girlfriends all the time and still, of course, girlfriends forever. Like, I'm a girls girl. I always will be. But I just have been so thankful lately for my guy friends. And I've just been thinking how much they contribute to my life and help me with certain things that I might have a blind spot with or that I don't have a lot of knowledge with.
And it's like I don't know. I just thinking about my guy friends a lot recently and like having them at the show. And we just I've always had a really close guy friends. My best friend in high school was a guy and I had that great group of guy friends in Atlanta and I have my best guy friends here. And it's just like I mean, you have do you have Dillon? And we would talk about these guys, but I just want to give a shout out and shows them love because like to man to man.
You know what? I know it's weird. It's off. Brand, but I want to shout out the men I just have been feeling like in my feelings about like Rob and Matt. That's my brother. But, you know, all these guys instance Andrew and everybody that is like surrounding us and, you know, I don't know. I just want to say something.
It's been really nice. Well, people say all the time, they ask us, we do an episode on like, can you have a platonic relationship with a guy and say, yeah, you have an easier time with it than I do, because every man that I meet, every man I meet, I'm like, should I swear to God? I don't think that is my immediate thought with everyone. You would say, like, I'm more I lead with sex a lot more than you do.
So like, I'm like man, like every guy that I meet, I'm like, God, I fuck you.
Then you do get to a place where you have fucked them and you go and you say, yeah, but yes, I, I agree with you.
I love the men in my life. And I think that at our age it gets hard to maintain male friendships as a female, because at least for me, like a lot of the guys I used to be friends with got married, had kids, moved away. And it's hard to maintain a relationship with the man that's married and have kids. It seems sort of weird as a single person to some people's wives and girlfriends. I mean, and they're not into it.
We we let's do an episode on this will deep dive on this. It does depend on the partner. Not that you're not that your guy friend should, like, ditch you when they find somebody, but like their partner or their girlfriend, their wife or whoever matters. And it's like I feel so lucky that Rob's wife is just the fucking coolest. And like all of my best, you know, best guy from high school, we stayed. I mean, I went to visit him in Prague and he he wasn't married to his girlfriend yet.
They're married now, but they were serious. They lived together. I went to Prague. She just she was actually pregnant with their first child. She just let us go to Berlin together for the weekend. Like, I'm like I'm just going on an overnight trip, like we're sleeping in the same hotel room, just me and him, you know, like I've been really lucky to have the the girlfriends all my side.
I maybe I maybe maybe they just don't think I'm like, hot enough to still or man or maybe they're like ashes for she's not going to come here. But maybe I'm nonthreatening because I'm not into them. But you don't lead with sex and you don't flirt as much. And I think that like people meet you and they're like, oh, this is like a genuine person that just genuinely wants to be friends. So they get your vibe. And it's how that person feels about the relationship and also how their man treats them.
So like I do think it's normal that like I mean, I'm not I'm just using men and women is like that man should put his wife or should be his girlfriend ahead of you. And if that person feels that knows that like Allison notarised Rob's priority. Right, then it shouldn't be an issue.
That's what. Yeah, it's that depends on the strength of that relationship, too. So we'll maybe we'll deep dive in this later. But anyway, I like the to can't recommend men enough. I can't recommend guy friends enough. I'm glad you brought a pragmatic man. I want to read you this email about our live show. It came through just like wrap up the live show and this one person's experience and sounds like a great guy that she found.
OK, she wrote us in the middle of the live show live show at seven thirty pm. And did she said where she was living. It's seven thirty pm. I'm watching. The live girl's got to eat. My bumble boy wanted to come over so I was like OK he'll come over at like eleven which is what he usually does now. He gets to my apartment at seven thirty. So she's right here like every game for yes. No, she's in a different time zone.
So we had already started, I want to say her time we started at seven. Oh. So he came in like thirty minutes. Already mentioned it. OK, all right. It's my apartment decides decides he wants to be horny. So this is what happens. He went down to me while my air pods are and listening to the girl's got to eat.
You love to see it sincerely coming live. I love her. Yeah. What a treat. I don't remember. We're watching this.
My only issue is she had her earbuds in. I wish we would have been on the big screen speakers out. So he was hearing us while he was going down on her too. Maybe she didn't want him to be too turned on. Can you imagine the stuff that we were talking about was really r rated, so I think we could have listened to it like porn. I mean, if you guys missed it, you can still get it. I mean, it's just I mean, I liken it to the Super Bowl.
She's like, you can come over, but this is staying on. I love that you just said that. Where the Super Bowl is so true, just like I watch you, it just any spectator sport without spectators these days. You know, it's so funny because I don't keep up with, like, sports that I just don't know what's going on. And my brother was always like, yeah, actually, they're they're playing like NBA hastier NHL is here.
And that's like, got to watch the Flyers game. Um, like the sports are happening with the girl at the dance at our show. I was dabbing with one of them here and I was like, what's the deal with basketball? And I go, I'm sorry.
I like, you know, Google, but I have you. So. Exactly. All right. Well, we have this amazing episode for you guys today that we are so excited about. We already recorded it. We actually have to hurry up because we to finish this intro. Because you have a date. I have a date.
I don't know if you want to help me complete this sentence, but as my first day since March. Not really since March, I like the last time I interacted with a guy where he kissed me on the mouth was March, but we also kind of lowkey broke up. So I don't recall the date. I really felt like actual real date was probably date. My God, Trish just came out. I think my actual real last real date was Valentine's Day, which is like sounds pathetic, but it's I mean, we've been in a pandemic since Valentine's Day.
We also left the country last Valentine's Day. So my last real date was Valentine's Day with somebody that I was dating, went to Australia, that I went to L.A. and went to Australia that day, came back. It was a pandemic one to my parents. And then it's been the summer and I don't know the summers flown by, but it's kind of weird. I feel like I just it was just your birthday.
I feel like I'm going to hit you with my last day. Oh, God, I know what it was in Australia.
Oh, I forgot about that. Oh, that was my I was going to say my last day.
I was the only one that knew the date was Matthew Hossie in L.A. right before we got on the plane. What are you saying? Yeah, but I think I was the only one that. Oh, that was he was just having coffee with the friend. He just was having coffee with a buddy. I was like, we were on a date. It was great. That was my life. But you are wrong. I am wrong because you went on a date in Brisbane, Australia.
Well, I watch The Love is Blind finale alone in my room.
I got officials serious. I have something to lose because I've hooked up with people all summer, OK? I've been doing great, doing great. I just mean like a very proper date. Well, also, we don't need to justify this. It's been a pandemic like some people aren't even meeting new people and clearly, you know, be safe whatever you're doing.
But like, I finally was like, I'm just going to really kind of hit the apps and try to meet people, you know? And so I have a date tonight that's like really all I can say about it, because I'm sure at this point this guy's in love with me and he's going be listening. Yeah. Next week. He's in love with you for sure. You're doing the most important thing that you can do on a first day, which is Taco's.
We're doing Taco's and this is Friday as I as we record this. So like plenty of time to hit it by Sunday or to be in love with him by Monday.
Babe, if you're listening, I got to tell you something that happened.
I got to tell you, something did happen on Friday night. I went out to dinner with a couple of friends and this guy who I was dating around, I used the term dating very loosely within three days. We've talked about right around twenty sixteen. So he came out to dinner with some friends and I the other night. It's totally platonic. He is in a very serious issue with somebody else that he was hanging out with us. And he told me one of the reasons that he's backed off from our relationship is that I babied too soon.
Meaning I called him babe, sorry, my mouth fellow, but I wasn't not. Of course you did. Now you are not going to be like, that's rude.
Oh, my God, you're my best friend. I'm supposed the support you like, he's right. I can see it.
And honestly, all I thought in that moment was I am so grateful for this podcast because, like, I see all of the things I did wrong, so I can't believe it.
Oh, my God. Oh, yeah, baby. Too soon. I'm glad you understand, because I was like, does this make sense when I say out loud that I babied too soon?
I don't remember. I mean, we really, like, casually hooked up for like less than two months. And I was not I don't think either of us looked at each other as a serious prospect for a relationship. So I probably might have said it like.
I can't imagine myself saying it other than sarcastically. I can't either. Like, I don't know. I can't picture. I just can't picture it. I wouldn't have said it as a serious thing. But, yeah, that's what I'm thinking because, like, I he's awesome. I really like him. But it wasn't like a serious thing. Yeah. It just made me laugh really hard and but I was thinking like, I'm so glad his podcast because like I remember, like, he kind of like go sit out on talking to me.
And I remember I did that thing where I read every single text message and like what happened here? And a girlfriend of mine was like, you're too comfortable, you're too comfortable with him. And I was like, no, no. Because I like and I asked him to like, come over after I went to this dinner or something, I was like, hey, I can just like stop by after I go to dinner. And he didn't seem like so cool about it.
And I think she said, you made yourself too available. Well, we've been talking about this a lot. Yeah. So, yeah. So nothing has changed. Rayna's working out her her body and her dating game. Yeah. I agree with our guest today. I'm so. Yeah, I just I wanted to tell you that, but I do think it reminds me of your saying I love you by accident during sex, which we discussed on the live show and was so fucking funny.
Someone wrote in what one of the never have I ever someone submitted was like never had I love you during sex instead of art instead of I fucking love you or fucking I love and I fucking love you. Oh my God. That is so bad because you want to say I love fucking you or I love your dick like all kinds of things to say I love you. Yeah. And it's like I write a drag twice.
I did it twice in the fall. I didn't try to do different people in the fall and I just like one of the times.
Both times I was dead sober.
Yeah. It's, it's hard to recover from it. You just keep going.
That is funny. You couldn't even blame it on being drunk. No broad daylight, dead sober. Oh my God. Doggystyle the case. You guys were curious.
You didn't have to look if you are looking somebody in the eye and you accidentally say, yeah, that conversation you need to have a discussion like you're just facing the headboard.
You know, I happen. They can you can be like you don't even hear me, right? First of all, that first guy doesn't believe that I love him. The second guy, probably he's deserving of love.
So neither of them believe that because my family will never know.
I don't know. Sometimes you get mad. I never know. Whatever Modred, whatever I say, just have a family.
Tell him I got mad. I got mad.
Oh, God. Oh, my gosh. All right.
Well, guys, we have an incredible interview for you coming in. But before that, we are just going to go through a few of our partners. We don't have to interrupt, Guy Wenche, do we even say his name earlier?
Always seems guy, which you'll hear from him in like five minutes.
I am telling you guys about. Feels right. Always does these reads. But I wanted to do this this time because I have been really taken. Feels a lot to help me sleep. I have mentioned this a few times in the podcast. I think recently that I have been having more trouble sleeping. I don't really know the reason. I don't really feel anxious, but maybe it's just even aging. I'm not really sure. But if you guys experienced stress or have anxiety or chronic pain or trouble sleeping at least once a week, you're not alone.
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I mean, everybody's body so different, like I feel like I can I'm I'm a larger person. Like I can take more of anything like a foot taller than you. I can take more stuff. Right. I can handle more take maybe she can handle more than I do. I've handled more and I've handled well. OK, I've handled more than some them, OK. I don't done the thing that we love about them is that they have real human support.
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Actually, when you Google Raina Greenberg, do you know that is one of the top Rainard Greenberg t is so pricey. So you guys know I obsess about and keeping them clean. It's a little bit awkward, but when is the last time you guys. Not rewarded for brushing your teeth with quips Nuart, smart electric toothbrush, good habits can earn you a great perks, like free products, gift cards and more. So I'll tell you guys a little bit about it.
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We would do like a yeah, we would do a brush off like every week, competing every week. I should be like I'm first place. You guys already have a club. You already bought it because of it. You guys can upgrade to the smart motor. It'll keep all the features that you guys already know and love. So sensitive sonic vibrations, a two minute timer, a thirty second pulse sort of guide you. It's slim, it's lightweight, it's sleek.
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Yeah. All right. Well, are you ready to introduce our guest? I am very excited to introduce our guests today. It's been a long time coming. We have a great guest in the house studio with us doing today. He is a clinical psychologist. He is the author of multiple books, including Emotional First Aid and How to Fix a Broken Heart is in Demand. Keynote speaker whose first TED talk, why we all need to practice emotional first aid has been viewed nearly 11 million times, including by me, and it's rated as one of the most inspiring TED talks of all time plesiosaurs on podcast.
Dear therapist, please welcome to the show guy Wenche.
Thank you for having me all the way from Israel. Thank you for being here. Yes, thank you. This is how we get our therapy, by the way. This is our whole scam is that we just interview therapists. It's a scam to get the the emails. I'm just saying.
Oh my God, why I'm nervous now. And yet we're so glad to have you right now.
Do you want to ask your favorite question? What what what gives you. So every time we have somebody on the show, we want them to sort of give themselves credit in terms of, you know, we always say what gives you the right? So what gives you the right to talk about these things? We're going to talk about emotional wellbeing and heartbreak and loss and loneliness and things like that today. So tell us a bit about yourself and what qualifies you to talk about this degrees and the degrees you say?
Oh, so I'm a I'm a psychologist and a writer. And the speaker, as you said, I have thirty years experience talking to people and doing research about this issue of emotional health and working with patients. And so I feel I have a decent vantage point about what's going on with us, period, you know, like in general, but also with us specifically and in different situations. And I find that it's not often that we get a real kind of honest.
Yeah, here's the way this actually is kind of a perspective from a psychologist, a psychologist. Favorite response to questions is it depends. And it's my favorite response because it depends. But there are some truths that we can get to. So hopefully we'll get to some actual facts and truths.
Yeah, she and I were talking yesterday about what we are personally looking for in a therapist, and we want somebody to explain to us what's going on rather than. Explaining to them what's going on, I feel a therapist, I feel therapy should do that more than many therapists do. Many therapists are very much in the I'm going to need a lot school of therapy and which is great. I'm actually all for nodding. I got an A in back in graduate school, but words we should use are words.
I love that. Well, why don't you explain to us what practicing emotional first aid means?
I will I do want to say that this came out of this observation, really, of the fact that we had this favoritism towards physical health at the expense of actually while ignoring our psychological health. And the example one of the examples I gave is that if you get a cut on your arm, most people are savvy enough to know if that requires anything. Maybe this requires a Band-Aid. I can tell if it requires a big Band-Aid. I can tell if I think I might need a stitch.
I can tell or if I really need to hail a cab really quickly to get to the I can tell so we can actually tell the difference between the cuts, the physical cuts be sustained, like what's the severity, what's the depth, what do I need to do when it comes to emotional ones which we sustain regularly and all the time and all kinds of domains of life? We're not even clear that we've been wounded. We can't even distinguish what an emotional wound is, necessarily what it is, and how to know whether that's something that requires any kind of treatment or what kind of treatment we are so behind in our psychological sophistication when it comes to understanding emotional injuries and certainly applying emotional first aid as compared to our sophistication when it comes to physical injuries.
And that is a gap that needs to be closed.
And how do you help people realize their pain?
I guess, I mean, or close that gap.
So in general, the way we respond emotionally and psychologically is such that, you know, we feel emotional pain, we feel emotional distress. That is pretty universal. In other words, if you went through a breakup, it doesn't matter how old you are, it doesn't matter what country you're in. If you really care about this person and you just got dumped, it is going to hurt and it's going to hurt significantly. Now, based on your culture and your age and your ethnicity, whatever different things, you might have a different way of expressing it.
But your internal experience, our emotional DNA, as it were, is going to be very, very similar. And because of that similarity is possible for someone like me to come and say, well, here's the general truth about these things, because this is what your emotional experience is going to be. And if it hurts for a very long time and if you start to question your value and you start to question your self-worth and you start to feel like I can't tolerate rejection, so actually I'm going to stop dating for six months to a year because that's a great solution.
Becoming isolated and lonely is not the best way. By the way, I was sarcastic, becoming isolated and lonely. Not a good approach when you're when you're hurting. But so there are all kinds of ways in which we experience a certain amount of emotional pain and distress. But the way we deal with it usually comes from ignorance. And one of the most unfortunate aspects of our psychology is that when we are in emotional distress, instincts are going to be off.
They are going to protect us, quote unquote, by getting us to avoid the very thing that we actually after. So, like the person who just got dumped wants to avoid dating or you just applied for this job and you didn't get it. So you're like, I'm not going to apply for jobs anymore. Or, you know, a tendency, unfortunately, is to avoid the thing that cause pain, which is often the thing that we were going for as a goal, and that stymies us and frustrates us.
And so we really have to be aware of how our mind responds to emotional distress, to emotional wounds, so that we can be aware of what we should and should not do to heal more quickly and to soothe the emotional pain we're feeling.
And I think that's so interesting how you talk about how you like avoiding the thing that you really want. And I think so much of the commonality, especially in a breakup, I wrote somebody back the other day who emailed us and said, I'm going through this terrible breakup. And I wrote her back and I said, you know, I know this is terrible and you're in so much pain, but it will pass. And I used to hate when people said that to me and I hated that that was my response to her.
But, you know, I think that sometimes we don't know how to, like, explain to somebody how to move forward, what the time period should be, exactly, how upset you're allowed to be on a scale of one to 10. And something that you talked about a lot was how you take those emotions and apply it to future situations. So if you feel like you failed in this situation that quote unquote failed at the relationship that you you'd like assume that you'll fail the next one or something that was just, you know, interesting.
Well, no, but it's absolutely true. In other words, you will come with trepidation to the next one. And by the way, you just use the sentence again, not sure how much pain you're supposed to feel. There is no amount of pain. You're supposed to feel you feel what you feel. Again, it's not about what's normative because everyone really hurts. So to the extent that it's very, very painful for you, it's efficient. Whether that compares to the other person doesn't really, really matter much in that sense.
But but it's just about how. Said you are what you need to do with it, and by the way, when it comes to breakup's, time is a great healer, by no means is it the only one. And it's one of those examples of there are many actions we can actually take to accelerate healing if we knew what they were. That's why I speak and write books and do interviews and all these things so that more people will know what they are doing.
Can we go through some of those steps?
Well, yes, I do specifically about breakups. Are we starting with the fun stuff? Sure I do that.
I think we can. I mean, your book kind of How to Fix a Broken Heart. I'm assuming you go through steps and the normal feelings that everybody goes through. Yeah.
So so here are some of the things to keep in mind when you've gone through a breakup. And by the way, some people you just might have been dating someone for five years, been married for 10, or you might have had, you know, a day or two or three. But you've got so attached and so hopeful that you can feel really devastated when that doesn't work out. But here are a few things you have to keep in mind.
First of all, a natural tendency after we get rejected is to enumerate every single fault we have in our effort to understand why it happened. But I know this enough and I'm too much of that. And maybe I shouldn't have said this and I knew I should have worn clean underwear that day, which you should do every day. But whatever the thing is that, you know, you're going through all of your faults and your mistakes and your inadequacies, it's a very natural thing to do.
And what I talk about, for example, in my TED talk, is that that would be akin to getting a cut on your arm and taking a knife and going, oh, I can make this deeper. Let's do that. It's absolutely the wrong thing to do. It's a very strong impulse in that impulse. Again, comes from our efforts to try and understand and give meaning to what happened. Only it send us down the wrong path. It must be something deficient about us.
And sometimes it is. But more likely it's about the fit. It's about the match. It's about the circumstance. It's about the quality of the relationship, about the other person, whatever it is. And so that tendency to beat ourselves up is something we actually have to curtail. And then we actually have to do the opposite. Our self-esteem needs reviving in that moment, not savaging. We're not joining Fight Club so well, we really need to do is find ways to remind ourselves of our value of what we bring to the table as dating or relationship partners.
That's a very counterintuitive process because I don't know many people who naturally well, I just got dumped. I'm going to make a list of how great I am and all kinds of different ways I would do this. Excellent. I'm giving you I am getting a commendation of emotional health right now because that's actually does every day, every day. If you don't need a break up to do it, it's slightly different. So so that's one thing that we need to pay attention to.
I have to break up another one is that to the extent that we've been in the relationship for a while, that's going to leave a lot of voids. We haven't had to figure out what we're going to do on a weekend for a long time necessarily with our partner, but not not by ourselves. We have got to figure out, well, if it's just me, then what do I want to have for dinner or what was the toothpaste that I was using before?
Or now there's this big gap on the wall, whether that used to be. And so we need to actually fill the void in the real world and within ourselves in terms of our identity, in terms of who we are, how we define ourselves, because we can have been through a lot of change. And some of that is related to the person that we've lost. And some of it might not be much of that we want to retain. Which of that would we like to dump?
So there's a lot of actual work and thinking we need to do to reconstruct, to reformulate, to recover.
After heartbreak, I start to do this totally useless exercise all the time. After a break up, I go through every single communication we had and I read every text message. And I think, why did I say it like that? Why didn't I put myself out there, out there more wanting to ask for something? Why did I shut the fuck up about something? Why did I pick that pine? I make myself crazy. And I remember my mother, who was also a psychologist, said to me once, you know, it doesn't matter.
You can evaluate these things forever. But it's not like you to evaluate why you accepted so little or why you know, why you stayed in this for so long. And that was very helpful for me. It hasn't stopped me from doing it, but I think we all have a tendency to sort of try to do that. And I would say you probably feel like that's a worthless exercise as well.
Actually, I'm going to agree with your mom. In other words, there are things of value that you want to learn from the break up. And, you know, if it's happened after two days, there's not much for you to write in a relationship. And even if you're the one doing the breaking up, there are things to learn, like what did I compromise on in this relationship that I shouldn't next time? What did I tolerate that I really shouldn't?
What needs you said what I should have asked for this. Yes. If that's something that's important, you should have asked for that answer. What was the thing that stopped you from asking? What was the fear that stopped you? Did you know how to go about doing it? Or had you just mentioned that a lot of times people would say, no, no, I verbalized my needs. I'm like, how? When like, I hinted heavily by raising an eyebrow that's not verbalising.
That's not really that clear to the other person because they think you can raise an eyebrow for many reasons. So to actually do a little. A little bit of a postmortem and to understand, OK, what are the lessons I want to take here to my next relationship? What connections do I want to institute in how I conduct myself in the next relationship that's useful that you can do rather quickly? That apparently doesn't take six months if it's in the six month time you're still thinking about.
But look look at this text here. They said that they really loved me. Why a week later did they? Because, look, I haven't here looking to show you, because I've shown you 10 times on the show. Again, why do they say that? That is the exercise. That's not very useful.
Mm hmm. We couldn't agree more. Well, we are going to continue this conversation about breakups and heartbreak and rejection and all that. But we're just going to take another quick break to wrap up our partners for this episode. I am telling you guys about Helix, where one of a kind people and that's why we eat sleep on a helix mattress designed specifically for our body types and sleep preferences. And you can tell I have a Helix mattress I talk about all the time.
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Yes. Yeah. So let's get back into it with Guy. All right. So I'm sure you hear this with anybody you speak to and we hear to. And I think it's a natural thing that people think when they are hurting so badly from a broken heart. And they are just like, I just never want this to happen again. I just can't I never want to feel this pain again. What would you say to that person? Is it just.
Well, it might. And that's just the rescue take when you open up your heart or do you have any advice for the person that is asking, how can I ensure I never feel this broken and dead inside again by remaining alone and having a different version of broken and dead inside?
Those are the options. In other words, to open yourself up, to be vulnerable, to love someone is a risk. That's a risk you should take and you should be a measured risk. It should be a thought through and it should be a risk that you, as a lot of vetting, I think needs to go into relationships. That does not to the people actually, you know, miss a lot of red flags. They don't consider it.
Well, we're just starting out, so I'll address these things if it gets serious. Well, at that point, you've already accepted them, so there's not much harder to address them. I don't see one thing. Just go back for a minute about that. Think is one of the things that really plagues people is that text message, because now, you know, like in the age of text, you can actually go back and look at the evidence, quote unquote, and and like a detective, like, I don't like CSI.
Now look at the forensic analysis of what went wrong. But here's actually what happens when you're actually in a relationship with someone and you would do the same if you're thinking of leaving it. You don't voice that when you first have the thought. You know, like no one wakes up sitting at breakfast and goes past the conflicts. I was thinking of leaving you anyway. Oh, no, that's not that's not how it happens. You don't just voice it.
It's it's a plan. It's a it's a cooking. It's a process that somebody goes through until they're ready and until they are they usually will know the person know there might be some emotional distancing that's going on or that kind of thing, withdrawal of energies. And somebody might tell something's up. But that's the whole point. They won't tell you until they're ready. And so very much a week before they can send you a lovely text or go on vacation with you or spend a lovely weekend in which you think, oh, this is lovely.
And then it's wow, out of the blue. But it wasn't out of the blue for them. They were planning that. And they were just like, you know what, you've been looking forward to that weekend for so long. I don't do that to you before that. We can all go on that weekend and give you a nice weekend. I'll do it for you after. There's often a kindness in it. Not always, but sometimes there is.
There's a consideration. But that's why it's always a blind side, because they will let you know when they're ready and they will kind of forget to not lead you on until then.
We did a whole episode on that. We did. Yeah, it's called. So You Got Blindsided because I think we've all felt that and we tend to think that feels like a little bit more of a male behavior. But, you know, we hate to generalize so much, but in terms of when women get quote unquote blindsided, we're like that guy has been thinking about that for quite some time, just like you said.
Yeah. And look, it's an accident. And this is something women do as well, you know, as men. And I don't know how many times you were the one to break up a relationship or listeners, but if you are and you're a woman, then you probably you know, you probably probably tried to work in the relationship, tried to voice dissatisfaction and make changes. But at some point when you made up your mind, you probably strategized when is the time to do it?
And there were circumstances, there were holidays, and there were all these other factors that came into it. And it just a natural way of thinking.
So what do you say to a person? You know, because we always tell people you're not expected to be a detective, you don't have to check in with your partner to check them every day. Are you going to leave me? Am I OK? You know, what do you say to a person? It's like, I should have seen this. I should have seen that my partner wasn't happy. I should have seen it. They were going to leave me.
Do you say to them, no, you shouldn't have? Or do you say to them you should have been checking in more? I know that every situation is very different. But, you know, for somebody who says, why didn't I see this? I'm with this person every day, what do you say?
So I say that it's possible that you couldn't see it. But did you feel something? Did you feel a little bit more emotional distance? Did you feel the efforts subsided and feel the enthusiasm wane with any kind of small changes in behaviors? They always used to make you pancakes and Sunday and for the past few weeks has been toast? I don't know. I'm just a bit. But, you know, the small little things that you can look at, because when somebody is deciding when and how to leave, there is a withdrawal of emotional energies and emotional investment that happens much.
And this is obviously very different, but much in the same way that when you're looking for a new apartment, you start to disinvest from the apartment you're in. It starts to annoy you more of the thing, because now you're looking for. To the new one, you know, we can't love two apartments at the same time, and I'll take a second apartment. I know you do. Yeah, we know, but you know what I mean.
In other words, like we have a finite reservoir of emotional resources. And so when we are starting to invest them elsewhere, they have to be withdrawn from somewhere so that sometimes people can think back and go thinking about it that way. Yeah, there were little things that I did notice, but like I said, most of the time you didn't notice because you weren't given the signs on purpose so that it would happen at the time the other person, because otherwise it would force the issue before they were ready and they didn't want that either.
And sometimes you're choosing to ignore them. I mean, everybody has a different level of confrontation and you're bringing things up in a relationship. So we hear that a lot of yeah, I did see this. I didn't know these things were happening, but I was scared to bring them up and I didn't actually want to admit that they were happening. And so I think that if you get into a situation like that with a relationship, then you're better for the next one, you know, when you might be a little less scared to bring something up when you see those cracks in the foundation start, because I think you see that all the time.
Like, we never want to not validate someone's experience, but there's always a little bit of like, did you see anything happening here? And if you really drag it out of people, sometimes they finally might like, yeah, I did, but I didn't want to admit to myself that it was even happening, so. Oh, you can just go.
Yeah, I know. But I was stressed at work, so I thought it was like they were having a problem with them. So I thought it was that the best friend was. I mean, it's hard to you know, we can see someone, you know, preoccupied, but we can't find reason why. So we can find a much more benevolent reasons than because they're losing interest in me.
But then sometimes it's like on the flip side, you always think it's about you and it's not, you know, like it's kind of like, you know, Raina coming in and me telling me no. And she's like a little off for whatever reason. And my immediate thought is, is she mad at me? And it's just has nothing to do with me. You know, I think we have a tendency to go the other way to where you think everything has to do with you.
And it actually is that their stress at work or that their mom is, you know, so it's like, yes, but that's where communication comes in, right? Especially when it comes to friendships, partnerships and relationships. It's fair to say, is everything OK? You seem a love. And then your job would be to say, yes, X, Y and Z, or to say, well, frankly, you piss me off royally yesterday and then you actually talking about it.
But that's but that's what I meant to say to her. You know, I don't really know. We're I get through this in real life. Are you OK? And I was like that conversation in the car really upset me. Not anything you said. Yeah. We just we were we worked through some stuff on a car ride yesterday, not with each other, but in our romantic relationships. Anyway, we're not while we have you guy. We we got like let's let's let's let's make it work on our relationship.
Hardly. Rallier, we we want to give people permission also to you know, maybe you didn't see anything in the moment. Like my fiance left me, blindsided me pretty hard. But I would say after several months of thinking about it, I was like, oh, of course all the signs were there. But it took me a while to stop a blaming myself and be have sort of like an aerial view of what happened. And it's OK.
The second day after somebody leaves you, you're not like, oh, I totally see what happened.
That's not possible. That's not natural. Look, I work with couples who sit in my office every week threatening to leave each other. And then one of them finally does it. The other one is stunned. Shocked. I tell you, they just didn't see it happening. And I'm like, because you discuss it every week. No, but I didn't think it was serious. I'm like, well, apparently they were. But but it's very easy to feel surprised by these things.
It's not unusual.
So something that you talked about, unless you want to I mean, ask a question, you see if you like it look like something that you talked about, that I liked you sort of, again, like giving people permission to feel certain things is what happens in your mind after you've like, quote unquote, failed at a relationship or been rejected and like the self talk. And if you want to talk a little bit about like what? Just like a natural normal like negative self talk happens during that process.
That's exactly what was going to ask. I was thinking or even like there's such a spectrum of breakups and there's everything from like a light rejection to a massive, you know, breakup after being together in a committed relationship. And I think sometimes a lot of the little rejections can build up and make you really closed off and just want to throw your hands in the air and give up and also just think you're not worthy of finding somebody like we we've been in this place, you and we we know a lot of other of our listeners and everybody has of just like why is that?
Where is he? You know, where is she? Why is it working out? Why is it just rejection after rejection of breakup after breakup and nothing nothing ever works out. And so, yeah, I think a lot of that results in a negative self perception, self talk. And how do we work through that?
Yeah, so there's a big dynamic that often happens which becomes really reciprocal. And that is so for example, you have this breakup. Be very hesitant, you know, you don't know if you want to go through that again, you meet someone and it seems to be going well, then there are some issues there. But you ignore them because you just want this one to work out well. And you also don't put forth any expectations or demands because you just wanted, you know, to to work out well and then you stay with it, even though you really shouldn't or you you.
And what comes across to the other person is, well, she's not making any demands on me whatsoever. She you know, that's in the bag for me. And when people feel early on, it's in the bag. The most natural human tendency is to lower your effort because you can and we have a tendency to put in put forth as much effort as is required. What is required is up to you. So if you're not setting a bar, the person you're with isn't going to meet it.
Now, it's that very fine threading of a needle in which you set a bar that's manageable and that's reasonable without being too difficult or without being too demanding or without being too controlling. There's the whether the nuance comes in. But a lot of times what the mistake people make is they just they just make it too easy for the other person and then the other person doesn't appreciate them. And then that keeps happening. And the more it happens, the easier they make it because they don't want it to happen again.
It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. So we have to pay attention to those kinds of dynamics. And and by doing that, the mistake you're making beyond letting the person think that you're going to be easy for them so they don't have to make many efforts. But the mistake you're making is you're actually what happens in the early stages of a relationship is it's like wet cement. It dries very quickly and it gets very hard once it does. So the dynamics, the the the the the power shifts, the the expectations get set up very, very quickly.
And if you don't address the things you don't like, it's going to be much harder to do once the cement dries. So it's actually important in the early stages of a relationship to be and be nice about it and be very, very even light about how you bring stuff up. Even just flagging something is good. But don't let things slide that you wouldn't accept in a long term relationship because is going to be much harder to change them when you're in the long term relationship.
And if somebody has been acting a certain way for months and all of a sudden you get upset because you've been upset, fermions, you know, it's I want to say it's not fair. You can always tell somebody you don't like how they're behaving, but it's sort of like what I've been doing this for months. Like where did this come from? It is hard to sort of like move the goalpost that at that point very hard, literally ten times harder than doing it at the beginning.
Yeah, that's a I love the same example and I think maybe some people think, like, it's so new. I don't you know, I don't want to bring this up right away. It's not that serious yet. But then I kind of think, OK, but it is new. So this is kind of when the person should be trying the hardest, you know, like in my mind, like, why was this person not putting in any effort this early on?
Like, that's a huge red flag. So let's talk about why you're feeling a lack of effort at the point when there should be the most. Well, a point when someone is trying to date you.
Right. You know, and you should assume that this is them at their best. Right. Right. Exactly. Thank you for pointing towards let me be clear about something.
I am not suggesting that I date. No till you sit down and say we need to talk because. Oh, yeah, it's going to be a bit much. You just need to flag it. And I'm going to give you an example about how lately it's OK to do it, because by by flagging it, you're reserving the right to object to it later on if you didn't like it lesser. So if the flagging isn't such so like the person who has a lateness issue and first day, there were five minutes late, five minutes ago to go second day that ten minutes late, you don't have to say you're ten minutes late.
Even if you don't want to have that conversation, all you can say is problems with the subway, OK, something as late as that. And they go, oh yeah, it's an OK, you gave the message right. Or, you know, you just kind of call attention to it in the lightest, smartest, kindest way is sufficient to flag it. As I reserve the right to talk to you about this if this keeps happening, is the subtext of that.
And that's all you need to do at the beginning, huh?
And I think it's probably what we hear the more is not necessarily late to a date. It's it's more communication. It's they don't text me back in a timely manner or they're not respecting my time or they're not prioritizing me. And so I'm trying to think of of some let's talk about this, because that is where it happens.
Right. Okay, let's do it. When super well, why did it take you 48 hours to send me a text about it. Right. And so when somebody doesn't say, oh, I had a great time. I'd like to see you again, but it took 48 hours. How quickly you responding to that text? As weird as you want to get it, I'm long wait. I mean, if somebody waited 48 hours, I'd I mean, I, I would be pretty but hurt.
I would be like, OK, how did you not think about me for two days? It's a bummer. It is. I think I'd be bummed, but I'm I'm willing to give it a shot if I really like the person. And I honestly would respond within like five minutes.
And I think I'm interested in what way I might not address it the first time.
I'm not a psychologist, so I you tell me what I'm doing wrong. But the first time it happens, I might be OK with it and acting like I'm not mad by withholding a text message for 12 hours. Because you do that they know you're mad and that's it sends the message in the real world, don't do it, man.
Do it like do it. Funny you can say something like, oh wow. It took me 48 hours to come down from that. Hi. I'm so glad you're finally able to communicate like, you know, you can say something amusing or if it's even like twenty four hours. But that seems too long. You know, you can wait a bit. First of all, if you respond immediately, the message is I've been waiting for you to text me.
I'm eager. You're absolutely conveying that. The other thing I tell people to watch out with text messages is it's very convenient that we have it. Count the lines. If you're writing ten and they're responding with two, don't write ten.
Again, it's conveying a disproportionate amount of effort which is going to play out in other ways as well.
We're talking yesterday about being too available and I am too available, which is probably why I would respond in five minutes. But I think I'm trying to not convey that I'm like super mad. And again, for me, this is the one time it happened. This is not a pattern. That's a different story. But yeah, I think that the ten the you know, you should mirror if somebody is saying five things to you or one. And that, I think can sort of wrap up the availability a little bit.
Right. And the other option is that you respond kindly and you go on the second date and after the second date, to the extent that it goes well, you say, by the way, just to let you know, I'm the kind of person that if I don't hear from you for another 48 hours, I'm going to lose interest because I'm going to assume that it's not that urgent for you. So I'm just letting you know that if you're interested and quick, I just smile.
Smile. This is all about. Yeah. I mean, I dated someone that I just I felt like he sometimes he wouldn't respond to a text that I felt was deserving. Like I felt like he just kind of dropped off in a mid conversation. You know what I did? I just made a slight comment about it, as in it's it's noted. And we didn't we didn't get to a point where it would have been a serious like, hey, this bothers me talk because, you know, a pandemic happened.
But had it gotten to that point, I think it would have been like, hey, I enjoy communicating with you. You know, I just I feel like sometimes I said things that are deserving of a response. You know, we're bantering back and forth and it just it doesn't feel great. And I think that's an easy thing to say. And some people don't know that they're doing that because it wasn't intentional. This wasn't like a guy that was a player, you know, Wolfboy, where it was.
He had a million other girls he was texting. I think it was just he was probably just distracted and didn't think about it. So sometimes it could be the the latter it could be an asshole, the guy that knows exactly what he's doing. And sometimes it's just a matter of mentioning something that they maybe they didn't realize they were doing.
And look, the other thing I believe in is actually giving people the answer. And also, for example, sitting in that situation, look, I know you can get really busy, but if we're in the middle of the conversation, I promise you it'll be absolutely fine with me. If if I get a one word fix busy, I will assume that, oh, you're just this is a placeholder to respond later. You're just letting me know that you can't at the moment, which would be great otherwise.
I'm just guessing about what.
Yeah. So did the good people of this would work for me kind of formula.
I think it's a very fair thing to do.
I love that. And I think that ultimately I want to validate texting as a form of communication.
I think sometimes people try to unvalidated to make you feel a little crazy and gaslight you a little bit like it's just texting. It's like it's just texting. It's like our main form of communication these days as opposed to what we're not doing.
Right. Right, right.
So I think sometimes maybe I'm just going to use a woman and a man in this example. But a woman might feel a little silly saying something like that, like, I don't like when you drop out of the of a text conversation with me and she may feel a little silly bringing that up, but in reality, we communicate primarily via text so much that that's like you walking out of the room while I'm still talking, if we were to put it, you know, so is.
But I do it lately, right? I mean, you can just show the phone and say, you see, we're in the middle of the conversation. And here, right here we have text interruptus. We have you just going dark for unclear reasons, even if you're doing it with a smile, because look what guys don't like, especially women either. We don't like to feel don't don't you know, blame us. Don't tell us we're assholes.
Don't, like, make a big deal of it, especially if it's the first time. And I might have had a good reason. So it's the lightness of the communication which is fine. And some people like but it isn't a light thing. And I'm like, but that's the stage of the relationship. Stage of the key. You're trying to convey a message, it doesn't really matter whether you say big or small, if the small is more effective because it makes people less defensive use, the smaller your message gets across more efficiently.
Whereas let's talk and the person immediately goes into defensive posture and they go, we're going to have a lot of these because this is going to be exhausting and they don't know that. But if you're just very light about it, it allows them to change. But the other thing I want to point out is that they look for the change. In other words, if you're pointing out something slightly and then it happens again, they need to point it out again, because if you don't, they'll be like, well, she seemed upset about that one, but I guess it's fine because she wasn't upset about the other one.
I like the idea of doing it lightly. Otherwise, I think for me at least, it could spiral into this like power dynamic of like this person did leave me hanging on the last conversation. I said, that's funny, smart thing you should have responded to and you didn't. And now I'm mad. And now the next time you say something to me, I'm going to want to withhold my funny response because I'm I'm tepid that you're going to do it again.
You didn't answer my phone call last time. And for me, it spirals into this, like, who could fuck the other person a little bit more? And they have the upper hand. And yeah, I like the advice. Would you say something early on and then look for the change and at the I think if the person likes you enough, respects you enough, they will address it. Even if you said in a light manner what I do the other day, that guy Salmiya, he set me like a kind of a sexy pick, but he hadn't responded as he was about what you want to see there, wasn't it?
Wasn't that OK? Right. Because it was sometimes as an effort to the sexy back and you're like, no, no, no. It was like a joking it was a good joking sexy pic, but something to look at in bed late at night by yourself. No, I might. But just because I know what's under there. OK, but it was two days prior. A day prior, whatever it was probably the day before, maybe two days.
I had made like a funny joke about something that mentioned my boobs, like whatever. And so when I got his picture two days later, I said in a light way like, oh, is this your response to the thing about my boobs? You know, like it was kind of like, that's great, but in a joking way.
And he immediately did take it and digest it and say like, oh, I don't know if it wasn't like and I'm so sorry apology. But he at least addressed why he didn't respond to that. I think he said, like, oh, I'm so sorry. I was a bit distracted. I always want to respond to your boobs like it was like a silly thing. And that's what it was exactly what you need right now. Did you need to even if you had said, oh, wow, yeah, I didn't respond to that, sorry.
Or even without the sorry. Oh, right. Shoot. I didn't respond to that. It's not it. And then if it's noted, you do want to see a change in behavior, because if it's not, then you don't, that's a whole different then what do we do?
I don't change at all. I mean, you bring it up again and then you say, hey, let's stop the three strike rule because you're close to getting booted out of the game.
You know, I was talking to a friend the other day and I sort of like in this every person you meet, you have this, like, blank whiteboard and everything you learn about them. You're just put it on the board, right? You're just you're throw it up in the board. There's good and bad columns. And, you know, sometimes you connect it with the little red structure. You're like, well, this thing's locked and it's because of this thing.
And, you know, not everything has to be a big fight. But eventually you step back from the board. You say like what's going on here? And I think that if, like, this person consistently ignores my cute naked pecs and me flirting and the funny, interesting things they say, then you make a judgment call about the relationship.
Overall, I make a suggestion. I, I all. Yeah, I wouldn't tell guys about the board. Well I just told you I hundreds of thousands of people but no one. I mean it's scary. It's a metal board. I'm not doing it. It is good. I wish I knew a guy like you to run with it with the headlines from papers and narrowing in on the serial killer like I'm John Nash. No, this is not a beautiful mind is a mental wipe.
It is good what Irena's metaphors and guys should all over it. Yeah. No kidding. Know that was that was on me. I got to tell guys about. Oh I want to tell you about more of my metaphors. I know I thought of it the other day, this beautiful metaphor. I couldn't wait to tell you about it. I wanted to say something to you.
I just thought about like the 48 hours to respond after a first date.
I think sometimes women tend to, you know, romanticize and fantasize and think that you're going to fall in love on the first date and the person is going to wake up thinking about you.
And I think that's unrealistic. And so maybe we should all assume that people are busy and they're dating multiple people. Again, a little weird debt right now during covid, but there could be a totally fine, acceptable situation where you had a really great date with somebody. They, you know, woke up the next day. They went to work. They they got out there at the gym. They were busy. They had another date that night with somebody else, you know, and then then two days later came around and they were like, I really like that person.
I'd like to see them again. Like, I think sometimes we want everybody to fall in love with us. And that's unrealistic and we don't. Act like that either, so I think sometimes it's just a matter of not falling in love with somebody after the first date and sometimes it takes a day or two for them to be like, that was fun. You know, I'd like to do that again. I think sometimes relationships can be much more of a slow roll than this hot and heavy first day.
Wake up the next morning, text the person thinking about you can't wait to see you again. You know, I think taking a step back and being like this is not a big deal. We all have shit going on, you know?
But here's what I really like about what you said. And I think this is something people should do much more of. You could spend those two days going through all the scenarios, as we said, about what's wrong with you, but that's not good enough. Why not come up with that or any other kind of explanation that's actually much more benign, much more in your favor, because I did contact you in two days time or even in the day and a half period?
We don't know that yet. Like, I don't know. Certainly they're not chomping at the bit, but it's possible that they just got called into the meeting and then this happened and that happened. And then they decided, you know what? She was actually kind of nice. Let's call her again, find a a an explanation that that serves your self esteem, that makes you feel better about yourself, because if you're going to fill that gap, that it was something that actually benefits your emotional health rather than something that takes away from it.
That's a choice you can make.
Hmm. OK, so I buy that and I ask this a little bit before, but I want to get into it more when you're feeling rejected, because I would feel a little rejected after 48 hours not hearing from somebody. And I think that what I actually said is probably more the case, which is that you're a stranger and they don't know you and they're busy. But I think if you are feeling a little rejected, like, how do you manage all this, like self talk and like what is normal?
And if you could give us some tools for, like, dealing with that.
So let me just say something about rejection. I want people to know because it's not that that well known. So where a lot of experiments have been done with rejection in which they wanted to see why is it the rejection hurts so much? Even slight rejections are really painful. And so researchers wanted to see why that is. And so what they did is they created an experiment in which they created the evoked you know, they they had Confederate's that actually rejected the person showing up for the experiment unbeknownst to them.
So it's a rigged rejection. It's a mild one. It takes place in a waiting room. It's a very, very mild one. OK, OK. But here's what it is. So, you know, you're sitting you're waiting for an experiment and there are two people sitting next to you waiting for their experiments. They are research. Confederate's You don't know that there's a ball in the table. One of them takes it to the other. The other one takes it, tosses it to you.
You toss it back to the first person, he tosses it to the second, and then they don't answer to you again. They start tossing among themselves. So after one round, you got excluded. I was just listening.
I would be like, it's because I'm not good at sports. And they knew it. They must have known. But here's what is what happens, that when they take people into the actual experiment, they find that people report significant drops in self-esteem, significant experiences with emotional pain, significant feelings of anger and frustration and other kinds of things. So what they wanted to do is see like, all right, well, what happens if we say to them, hey, those two people who are waiting are actually from a group you despise?
So they told the the the black subjects, oh, those people were members of the KKK and they told the Jewish subjects those guys were neo-Nazis. And, you know, they told Taylor Swift it was Kanye West, whatever I'm just saying.
But the point is that it didn't change the emotional pain people experienced. In other words, finding out that the people who rejected you were people you actually despise. Didn't alleviate it, and then they went so far as to tell people like those who are research Confederate's, it actually didn't happen and it was still a while to get over the emotional pain of it, even if it wasn't real and they knew it. In other words, we are very, very hard wired to experience rejection as painful.
So much so that when it put people in functional MRI machines, they compared the pathways in the brain that respond to that kind of emotional pain versus physical pain and found that they were incredibly similar. The assumption was that these emotional pain pathways literally piggyback on pathways of physical pain is my last proof of concept. They gave one half of the people of the subjects a sugar pill and the other half Tylenol unbeknownst to them. And the people who got Tylenol reported less emotional pain from the rejection because that's how similar it responds in our brain.
It really hurts. So the idea is like, first of all, what we do when we're really hurting, even from mild rejections, even go, I must be a loser or like, you know, what's wrong with me that this is hurting so much. We are wired to feel that way. The reason, by the way, we are the assumption in terms of evolutionary psychology is that rejection was an early warning sign. And we were in nomadic tribes, you know, to to be ostracized from the tribe would be a death sentence, couldn't survive by ourselves.
And so people of rejection was an early warning sign that you might get voted off the island. And then the people who experienced rejection as more painful were more likely to change their behavior, stay and pass along their genes. And those who did not respond to that as painful or ostracized and died. So all the generations after generations that became supercharged so that there was an evolutionary advantage to experiencing rejection is an extremely painful because it got us to get along better, to comply better, and then therefore stayed to pass along our genes.
And so now we're stuck with that legacy that we find rejections extremely painful, even if they're mild, even if they didn't happen. And knowing that is important because at least you know why you're hurting. At least, you know, part of it is not on me or in fact, not about the other person. It's not that they're they're great. It's that I'm wired that way. Even if I hated them, I'd still be in some amount of pain.
Yeah, I was hoping this would come to a like, positive thing of like this. We're just human and this is what it is.
But what you do have to do is, you know, almost uptalk. And this was the example. I give you what I liked about what you said earlier. Find the explanation in your head that doesn't come at your expense. It doesn't make you feel worse. No. One. No to find ways to reaffirm your self esteem. So, for example, I said this to parents all the time. When your kid comes home from school and I mean, they didn't invite me to the party.
Oh, it doesn't matter what what other kids think or they made fun of me. It doesn't matter what other kids think. Well, it's going to hurt that kid because. Right. Rejection hurts regardless of telling them that they shouldn't feel the pain they're feeling is not going to be helpful. What would be is cancel your plans, invite their best friend over for a playdate right now to remind them that they're accepted, appreciated, loved by some people.
And that would be a direct way to soothe their pain rather than telling them they shouldn't have it.
So I think that people go on like one or two dates of the person, three dates, and they get, quote unquote, rejected him. He doesn't call you after. And it does feel really bad. And sometimes I feel myself like, why does this person even know me? Why do I care if they rejected me? Then they're they not the minimum amount about me to reject me. But it still feels so bad. And like maybe the solution to that is I go out with another person, remind yourself that you're that you're valuable, or remind yourself of all the things that are valuable to you just on a piece of paper.
Yes. And that's a good exercise. I'll say more about it in a second. But the idea is that if you're going like people say to me, oh, it was three dates, there must not have found me attractive. And I'm like, did did you change that much between date two and three? Because unless there was a big gap and you did something very drastic, you are the same person they invited out. So it's not about that.
Clearly, what it can be about is that you had that conversation about drugs and you said you're very anti-drug and it turns out their best friend is a drug dealer. That can be a possibility. What it can be about is that you said that, you know, you have this experience with something that they have just a really bad association with.
You don't know, or they got back with our ex, you know, or they found so many bad credit, like it's like a million. There's a million reasons. We just always say people find things differently that don't make you feel bad about yourself because there's so many more of those that that the others, it's just not necessary to choose. And really, what the science tells us is it's mostly about fit. It's about chemistry. It's about they had this formula in their head of the person they need to be aware of has to be able to do X, Y and Z, which is idiosyncratic and personal to them.
And you didn't fix one of the axis of the ways of disease. Who cares which one?
Yeah, I think. Probably a pretty common situation, and I felt like I dealt with it when I moved to New York and started using the dating apps, it's just all those light rejections. You know, you match with somebody and maybe they don't ask you out or they don't respond to you, you know, like they delete them after you set up a date and then they bail and we do that, too. So it's like that goes both ways.
But I like that you said that we're hardwired, that we shouldn't feel bad, that it makes us feel rejected by a stranger. But I think what we've done a lot in this podcast is giving those people the tools of the self talk of like it's it's you know, you live in a big city. There's a million people everyone's dating. It's not personal. They there's a million reasons they could have gotten off the app or maybe they didn't think you were good looking.
And that's fine because you don't think that certain people are good looking too. Like, I think there are so many different ways to use the narrative to not necessarily lie to yourself, but not take it so hard, I guess. So you're able to function and keep that keep getting out there, I guess. And I think sharing experiences helps you and reminding yourself that everybody is getting rejected. And, you know, in some of the like the prettiest, coolest people get rejected.
It happens to everybody because sometimes you can feel like you're the only person in the world that's like a reject. Right.
And what people who say was like, no, but I have a friend who's never been rejected and then I can now, you know, friends, you. Well, maybe they do, but how many friends do you have who have been rejected a thousand times? In other words, why look for the one person that's going to make you feel bad about yourself if you can, you know, look at people and feel like, you know what? No, I'm just like everyone else.
Why do I need to look at the one exception and feel bad about myself?
Yeah. So how do you, like, resist the urge to ruminate on this? How do you resist the urge to, like, sit at home and beat yourself up emotionally?
And the negative thought is very difficult to control what you can control as you can insert a positive one alongside it.
You can have the worry, you can have the negative thought of. Maybe they didn't find me attractive enough. That just pops in your head. What are you going to get into? That is. But you know what? If that were true, they wouldn't asked me on a second date or if that were true, they wouldn't have spent all that time flirting with me after that second date before they just ghosted me and disappeared for reasons unknown. So in other words, you can always add in a positive, more compassionate and self compassionate thought to the automatic negative one that will pop into your head.
And that's your job, that your job in terms of emotional health is to battle your mind when your mind is trying to do, not your bidding. But again, your main goal here is like if you're hurting, it's like a hot stove, you know, like if you want to touch that again, I'm going to make you very anxious to remind you how painful it is so you don't do it. That's what happens when you get rejected. Your mind is like, I'm going to remind you that painful choices, you don't make that mistake again, but you actually want to make that mistake again.
So you have to battle it and say, I'm going to put in the positive thought. I'm going to put in a neutralizing thought. I'm going to bring the counter explanation purposefully, and I'm going to be very diligent about not letting myself get swept up into all kinds of really unclear speculative ideas that will just make me feel crappy for no real reason.
I also just think I mean, if we're just talking about the apps, it does it does get easier. You do you start at your mind, starts to be a little more wired to know that this is how this works.
And like, I don't I just it's like anything, you know, the more it happens, the more it kind of you understand that that's just like how it is, you know, and you can't take every rejection, at least for me, you know, like I think I used to take it a lot harder. And I've realized that this is just a bunch of strangers that live at my phone. And I this has nothing to do with me.
And plus, a lot of people are on the dating apps without any intention of dating. Right.
With none to build up their self-esteem. They literally just bored. So in other words, it's not as if the people that matched with you well, necessarily, you know, they're like they just like the picture. It's a compliment. But they didn't have any intentionality behind it. So just take it as a compliment. Yeah. So one of the best exercises you mentioned, they make a list, is that for self affirmation, there's a difference between positive affirmation and self affirmation.
Positive affirmation is the you know, the old Al Franken of whatever name is Smally from Saturday Night Live who looks into the mirror and goes, you know, doggone it, you're going to be a successful person. Right? The positive affirmations are the ones you find on refrigerator magnets and calendars. It's like, yeah, I'm going to be successful. I'm a beautiful person inside and out. The positive with positive affirmations is what the research tells us is that they only work for a specific group of people in terms of improving self-esteem.
Any guesses what that is?
I will tell you that with high self-esteem, because I tell you, because it's people who can look in the mirror and go, I'm beautiful and I'm going to be successful in the world, is my oyster that believe it. But when your self-esteem is low, which is when people tend to use positive affirmations, then you're actually saying something very contrary to what you don't believe that you're feeling. You don't believe you're beautiful in that moment. You don't believe you're going to be successful when you just got rejected for a promotion.
So saying to yourself, I'm going to be successful is not compelling and I will reject it because it will actually make you feel worse. So what does work so positive? Affirmations generically don't self affirmations do because self affirmations have to be adapted to what you know to be true about yourself. So, for example, after rejection, sit down, make a list of at least 10 things that make you a good dating relationship prospect and it can be emotionally available.
And a good listener make incredible muffins. I'm great in bed. I like this. I like that. Would a great mother in laws, whatever it is, make a list. But these are things you actually know about yourself that are true. These are things you know, you bring to the table and then choose one of them and write a quick essay. And the writing here is important. And an essay. I mean, a paragraph really in a paragraph or two about why that quality is important, how you've exhibited in the past or how you might exhibit it in the future.
And that is an exercise that has been shown to really boost your self-esteem because you just spent 10, 15 minutes focusing on what you bring to the table and what somebody will appreciate. And that's what you just reminded yourself of instead of the opposite. Right, of all the negative stuff. So so that's that's self affirmation exercise as opposed to self to positive affirmation of self affirmation. Exercise is a great way to revitalize self-esteem after rejection or failure.
It feels more measurable to me than just I will be successful. It's like, well, what does that mean Outweight doing why? What is success mean? You know, I feel more measured. If you're like I'm beautiful and you don't really believe that, you can at least be like I have great hair or maybe like beautiful eyes, you know.
So if you're an employee, you can be like, I have a great work ethic. I'm reliable and responsible. I have a great skill sets. And and that's reminding us that there will be some employers that will appreciate that at some point.
So is there a point when all of the shifting of the rejection narrative and all the affirmations are too much and you actually need to reflect on your issues? That I guess, is there a point in which you're deluding yourself? You know, is there a point where you need to be like, OK, every person has dumped me and they've said along the lines of the same thing or, you know, is there any point where you have just gassed yourself up too much?
Well, look, first of all, as I said, when you when you leave a relationship or are left by one, it is good to do some thinking about what you might need to do differently, what you might have learned from that about yourself, about what your needs are, about dynamics, about the other person. And so some takeaway is actually very, very useful. I'm not saying just immediately say, well, that wasn't me, etc., etc.
. People who tend to turn to self affirmations are people who are feeling bad about themselves because I mean, the research shows that people who feel good about themselves benefit from them, but they're not the ones that typically turn to them. You know, as much. So if you're finding the need to journal on a daily basis about why you're OK, then there's a need there. And it's not uncommon for somebody with low self-esteem. I was feeling bad about themselves to catapult in the other direction and suddenly become a real dick.
You know, I'm really full of themselves and that just doesn't happen that much. You don't really see people go from really low self esteem to incredible pride or narcissism. That's not usually the way that happens. Like anything, you start to reflect on a pattern. You know, I keep having the same break up with the same guy or I keep getting fired in the same way or, you know, and it's just like I have to be always there right away.
That same guy, what are the mistakes you might be making? Like get it if that if you see it. And generally in psychology, if you see a pattern and explore it, try and understand it, where does it come from? What does it represent? What does it mean? What's it about? Why are you doing it? How are you justifying it? Ask yourself all these questions because it's amazingly important information to be found in that.
OK, so we want to talk a little bit about loneliness. Just because the state of the world, I mean, we would address that anyway. But I think especially during this time of I've covered a number of times during these unprecedented times, people are lonely. I mean, they're getting back out there more. But I mean, people are quarantined and they were alone. And we were hearing from so many single people that they felt more alone than ever.
And we just wanted to touch on that and see what you had to say.
So I haven't look, I have two things to say, and one of them is a little scary, but it's a fact. So let's. Start with a I start with the scary, the scary is that aloneness is a very dangerous condition. Oh, much more so than we realize. Loneliness has a huge impact on our physical health. Chronic loneliness increases the likelihood of an early death by anywhere from 26 to thirty one percent, depending on the study.
It will literally kill us. It is responsible for a huge risk of all kinds of diseases, cardiovascular and otherwise. It absolutely screws with our immune system if it is devastating in terms of the health and longevity consequences that it has. It is considered to be the equivalent of smoking 15 cigarettes a day in terms of its impact, the long term impact on our physical health. So that's a scary stat. Why it's important for people to know is because cigarette packs come with warnings.
Loneliness does not make sense. Most people don't think of it as, oh, this is actually a really unhealthy situation, both psychologically and physically and one that requires action. And I'm seeing the scary parts of the people understand it to the extent that do feel lonely. And to the extent that you've been feeling it for a while, you absolutely need to do something about it. Now, it's very difficult to do something about it. And why people get trapped in loneliness is because you become so raw emotionally.
It feels like rejection all the time, because every minute the phone doesn't ring. Every friend who's not contacting you feels like a rejection. When you're lonely, when you're lonely, you just feel like, wow, people don't care. And what tends to happen, therefore, is you don't reach out because you just don't want to put yourself up for more rejection, which again, reinforces it because and then when a friend finally does contact you, you're so annoyed and upset with them that you respond in a way that's either avoidant or hostile and then the like, you know, the lonely person is the one that will force themselves to go to the party, but is so convinced no one wants to talk to them that they'll put themselves in the side by the numbers and the vegetable dip and with a smile on their face and lo and behold, now is approaching because it looks scary.
And so the thing to do and what you really need to understand when you're feeling lonely is that it does require a leap of faith. You do have to take into consideration that it will feel like people care less than they actually do. It will feel like your friendships are less valuable than they actually are. And so when you approach, people do it with a smile. And when you're doing it over text or email, add a smiley face because your tendency is going to say, I haven't seen you in three months, which if you just have that I haven't seen you in three months, sounds accusatory and hostile, but I haven't seen him in three months.
Smiley face sounds like I miss you. Big difference. And so just be aware that you have to give people the benefit of the doubt. You have to reach out. And the secret here is to connect emotionally, to have meaningful conversations. You know, like if you're just going to go to a movie with a friend, you're not going to feel that connected necessarily. So talk about the movie afterwards, discuss it a bit, share something, ask them, feel that connective tissue.
And that's what you need to work on because it's dangerous. You want to really not get stuck in that too long.
Yeah, you said something in your TED talk last night that really stuck with me about emotional loneliness versus physical loneliness. And I think that I mean, I stayed in New York City and I lived by myself through the three months during quarantine. And I think people were really worried about me being alone all that time. But I didn't feel that bad because I didn't feel emotionally lonely. I made a real effort to talk to Ashley. Of course, every every minute I had some dates with my family.
Every night I was constantly on the phone with somebody. I was reading a book. I was doing things to make my day better. And I never really was able to verbalize why I didn't feel so lonely, because I think I felt like I was loved and people cared about me. But I like that you're giving credit to the fact that you can be around people all the time and still feel really emotionally lonely. So you do have to do the work to build those type of relationships.
It's not even just about being physically around people.
Right. In other words, there are plenty of introverts and other people who actually are fine. Being alone to be alone is not being lonely. Lonely is defined purely subjectively. It's about how much you feel the emotional disconnection from people around you. And to the extent that you don't, you know, lonely, even if you're alone in quarantine for three months. But you can be in quarantine in the house of ten people and feel lonely if you don't feel that any one of them is really seeing you.
I'd love to to state the difference. I think sometimes lonely gets mixed up in being single, you know, and I love that you addressed just general reaching out to friends feeling like nobody cares. But I worry sometimes that people want a relationship so badly, like they feel there's screaming void and it's like that's all they care about. So it's like they're even reaching out to friends and family laughs. And so it's like all they want is that romantic relationship.
And so it's like they're just desperately trying to find that so much. They don't even try so much with the people that do care about them, and I don't I don't. I guess the advice there is just yeah, yeah. Just to reach out.
Plus a significant proportion of the 50 percent look at the numbers specifically, but 50 percent of the people who report being lonely are actually married. I love that you said that.
Hey, guys, I know that because of that. But I think some people say it's lonely or being in a bad relationship. Then correct me alone if you and let's just talk about like sexual rejection in a marriage. Right. Because that can be extremely painful, too, because if you're lying there in bed every night that nothing happens. Is it that you feel rejected? And when you come home and you're sitting on the couch with your iPad and they're sitting the other end of the couch with a laptop and it's all very transactional to get the milk, pay the bills, you milk the car, then it's like it's just not real.
It just feels incredibly isolated and disconnected. And then and people really need to pay attention to it and then actually, like, scooch over on the couch and take your partner's hand. Now, they might after a while look at you like, oh, what did you do? Did you did you crash the car? Why are you doing that? And they'll because they're not used to it either. But then you can say, no, you used to sit together and watch something together.
Let's let's put our stuff down and find something we can both enjoy and talk about it like we used to find ways to reconnect.
I'd love to maybe even touch that a little bit more since it came up and that sexual physical rejection, because I think it hurts so badly. I mean, I'm only a woman, so I can only speak on behalf of us. But I know Vermentino, but I think truthfully neither. Yeah, yeah.
It's just I can picture a married couple scenario where maybe it might be a little easier to grab their hand. But I think so many people you feel so rejected that your stubbornness kicks in and you can't even imagine touching them, you know, nevertheless actually having sex. So is there a place to start verbally that's that you recommend where you haven't had sex in a while, you're feeling rejected sexually that we can offer people?
Absolutely. I mean, first of all, that is a conversation. That's not something you're doing when you're rushing to get to work in the morning or when you're feeding the kid or, you know, that's something that you actually want someone's full attention. And I would start that conversation by saying, hey, let's do something. Going to bring up a.. That's a down payment. Let's put our phones aside. There was no it's important if you asked them to put the phone aside and you can say, look, it's been a while since we've had sex and it's something that's been on my mind.
And I wanted to ask you about you and see kind of what that's about for you, what's going on and what thoughts you have about it. And I'm seeing that very specifically.
In other words, you want to start an inquiry with a question. You don't want to assume what it's about. Like you don't want to come and say to me that I put on weight, you know, like the hair. Like, don't don't start that way because you're just introducing ideas. And if they have something more complicated going on, they'll go, yeah, it's the new haircut. Right. You know, don't give them an excuse. Say, you know what?
I just wanted to hear from you. Like what? You know, that's something that just what your thoughts are about it. And then let them start from wherever they started to get really climbing on, you know, climbed up on monosyllabic like, I don't know, I just should have been alone. I don't know. Like, if they're in denial about it, you can say, like, is it not something that you've thought about? There's not something that you've missed and.
Because it's something that I do. So can we talk about it? And so it should be very calm, even gracious conversation to try not to wait too long to see. So, like, you've got such a reservoir of frustration that you, you know, and keep it about that, because if they say, well, you know, I've been really busy at work, you can see you've been busy at work and other times and their sex life hasn't dropped off this much.
Is there anything else going on? No, it's just work. And what can we do about it? Because that's not going to change necessarily in the next period. So what is it? Can we do do we need to carve out more time for me? I can tell you I'd like to have a romantic evening before we kind of just jump into bed so maybe we can find time for date night, like trying to come constructive in the suggestions.
But this is a two way street to try and actually have a conversation about it and try and understand what's going on with your partner and then come to some kind of understanding with them. Mm hmm.
And I like that you said something actionable, which is, you know, we talked about this for somebody named Dr. Emily Morse in the spring, also about, you know, if you're not having sex with your partner, don't just be like, well, we should do this more before bad. It's like, no, make a romantic plan. Do something like spice it up, do something something, clean the house for your partner, make dinner. You know, and I like that, you know, your advice is not just like, OK, well, just make an offer to just do it a few more times before we go to bed.
Like, romanticize this.
Woo me that one one exercise I've given couples who it's a big production and it's for couples have been together for a while, but those who've done it have just loved it. And that is to recreate your first No. Your first date, but the first moment when there was real sexual chemistry. Mm.
And so if it's so it was in that bar, try and find that bar or recreate that moment, try and dress in the outfits at the time, even if it's twenty, thirty years ago. Try and if you were at the bar and they came in and came over and spotted you plant yourself at the bar, planned it all out, strategized that if it was at a friend's at a friend's party, wait for the next party to happen and then recreate it there.
But I could literally make it a production of reliving and together planning and reliving that first moment of an actual chemistry. And it can be very empowering to kind of go back in time to that moment where you're like, wow, really challenged by that person.
Well, and I think the the reminiscing and the discussing, the disputes that don't happen naturally. If you go to that bar you go to, I mean, it's tough to go to a bar right now, but you go to that restaurant, you're going to start saying, remember when we were here and you order that, you know, like it's going to that doesn't even that'll just happen naturally. I love that idea. We haven't heard that yet.
I could talk to you forever. I've been really so wonderful. And we've been working to have you on the show for a long time. So we're so excited. And I honestly cannot wait to read your books and, you know, get out your baseball cards and know everything about.
My time on first base was really my glory days.
But if you would like to know if you can tell people where they can find you, obviously your books are available on Amazon and small retailers what you should be supporting independent bookstores.
Absolutely. Black owned stores know. So my website is going Wenche dot com and you will find links to pretty much what you might need. I have three talks which you can find links to again on my website. I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted. It's science based advice. There always links to articles, but it's any topic that you might want. If you have an issue for that, you can write to. Dear Guy at Ted dot com.
I have a new podcast with Lori Gottlieb, the author of Maybe You Should Talk To Someone. It's called Dear Therapists and is an advice podcast in which we do two interesting things. We we choose the latter. We bring the person on to discuss with them what their issue is, have a little bit of a mini session. Then we give them actionable advice that they have to implement within a week and then they have to report back on what happened.
So that's the part that he never really getting advice and eventually find out what did they do it and what happened. So here you do. And that is the therapist. That's where you get your podcasts. And and if you want to be a guest on that, you write to Laurie, Eleri and the Guide. You and I are media dot com. And that means you have to come on and talk to us and we can use, you know, fake names.
We use fake names all the time. So that's what I feel like. You're inviting me. And yes, the answer is yes, I will. And right you. I'm ready. Thank you so much. And I have it on record with a good time reading your column in the car yesterday on our drive. And of course, all the information about your podcast, your blogs where people can find you will be in our episode description and on our website as well.
Wonderful. Yes. Well, thank you so much for your time, guy. We really loved it. Thank you so much.
Such a pleasure. And thank you for being so much fun and asking very interesting questions. And it's been really fun talking to you.
All right. Thank you so much. All right, guys. Well, we hope you enjoyed that interview. We have one more fun segment for you. So we will be right back. And we're back. We recorded that all together, though, right arm. Do you want to explain the impetus for this segment today? So we were trying to figure out what would be fun and light, but also go with what we discussed with Guy. So what we came up with was how we were talking about things that your partner does that are frustrating or annoying, that aren't necessarily deal breakers, but that you say like you're on notice.
I think we said that with him, like telling somebody like you're on notice, like I'm making a note of this. I'm going to remember those three strikes. You're out basically. I'm going to put it on the board that he thought was going to help your career serial killer whiteboard. Like, I wouldn't tell you. I'm like, you know that I'm kidding, right, guy? I don't.
I also kind of now has a low key on guy. You keep saying his vibe is like what I want for you. He's like super smart and assertive and like he gives tough love. I mean, he I don't he's like assertive. He doesn't sugarcoat things. But it's not Off-putting, right? Yeah. I don't know. There's a word for this, but you know what? I don't have the word on me was Francis.
I'm sure he knows that I have a Francis and his big words.
But yeah, I like his energy for you. I like you too. OK, ok. He attracted also he shares an office with Esther Paral. So I'm attracted to who he keeps company with. Yeah. Who. Nobody's rejected us more than her. But anyway what we decide on was a game. What we did was we have a segment called You're on Notice. And you guys we didn't even really give you any direction. But of course, our listeners came through, as always with the funniest shit.
Some of it wasn't.
Well, you talk about the answers. Well, we got our eye in my mind, this was going to be like weird, funny habits and like quirks that your partner's had. So, of course, like we got we're going to do the funny ones. We've got a million, I believe, socks on the floor. Wash doesn't wash their hands have to go. The bathroom won't wash. Dish these cabinets, open nails, clipping now clippings all over the place here on the sink, toilet seat up, wet towels on the bed, door open when they put please pee on the floor, these beer cans in the shower.
So we got a lot.
Oh, no overwhelming amount of those.
So I at we feel for you ladies. You are in good company, but we wanted to read you some really unique ones. You want to check it out. All right. You're on notice. My boyfriend is an athlete and will only have sex in positions that help him in sports. What what do you think those positions are?
I've been dying at literally no idea what like Doggystyle, because it's like because he can, like, stand and squat a little because he's the quarterback or holding her up. I get like picking her up. Oh, he's he's doing my thing. Yeah. Getting his biceps in. OK, I think that you're right. It's weird. I don't like it. I wouldn't put up with it. I just even if it's true like why did he tell you, like you're going to lay there Tyler while I ride you and that's what we're going to do.
You're going to do nothing for your body, your career and you're going to like it. And you can work out after or before or whatever. But we're I'm going to ride you so I can get off, OK? He's like have been filled by Tom Brady fantasy. We can't stop this right now. I'm OK. This made me laugh out loud. His stress relief is prank calling. People like Pizza Hut in the middle of bum fuck Alabama. Why I cannot live.
What if you walked in on your man and he was on a prank phone call to Taco Bell? I just think it's so crazy. She said it's a stress relief. Like how he's like, I had a really tough day at work.
I got to come home, make some calls like so you have to work. So people go to the gym, some people smoke a cigarette. He's like, I got to call up. He's like like a fast food place. It's all right. I have a tip for you. I send you this guy sometimes. Hey, Berg, it's Evan Berger on Tech Talk. And he he does a perfect rendition of Donald Trump and Barack Obama. And he was prank calling pizza places and negotiating with them at Donald Trump.
Oh, that is funny. Piss your pants funny. OK, I got to watch that also very hot. OK, you don't have any recommendations this week. That's your reaction. OK, never refilling the British filter. I am the backbone of this household.
I can feel that because I come over here and I use your to filter every day and you pour it in a mug so you can only reach the mugs for just the glass because you get job I always like. Why are there so many coffee cups around my place?
I feel like we could do like a longer time. This man says, Yeah, I was planning on working out today for the last six months. Yeah. I mean it's like funny but it's like that's can fuck relationships up. I think we should do like an episode eventually about like dealing with your partner because I think that could come with an issue that could be an issue. Yeah. Narrates a show as we're watching the show like yes baby, I can see it too.
Now what, what does she mean by that and what kind of show are we talking. He's giving like commentary. He's like telling her what's happening in the show. I would appreciate it. Like, I get confused. I would appreciate it too, because I only have pay attention to anything that's happening. Like ask Corey what it's like to watch a show or go to the movies with me. All I do is ask questions. She's like, please, can you shut the fuck up?
I love something. I was curious.
Important question. Have we ever gone to a movie together? I don't think we have. Not once in three years. We've never entered the movie theater. We've never penetrated a movie theater together. We have it at once. He says you're not wrong. Instead of telling me I'm right, no.
But would that make you want to kill somebody? I wonder if he's like if it's just the way that he says that, like, I wonder if he says that to like his family, his friends, or if it's like he can't tell a woman she's right. Like, I wonder which, you know, it's it's the most I'm sorry, but I've explained it's like you're not wrong. I'm just saying it's like, you know what I mean. It's OK.
There's two ways it's you're not wrong, but or it's him saying, like, you're not wrong. You know, like you write like it depends on the tone. Like if it's more like I can't imagine the middle of fights.
I was like, you write, but no, I have one or that. I chill. OK, he uses his fork like a shovel. Well, this has happened to happen to me so early on. We talked about this and definitely the first.
Do we talk about it with about him? I actually don't know. We've talked about him a bunch, but I don't know. Yeah. So the guy I was casually dating, having sex with the very beginning, the podcast, the younger guy, he held his work like his fist around the the fork. It honestly, I was so put off by it, I wasn't into him. Like I don't know that it would have been a deal breaker, but it added to the things I already wasn't into.
It was bad.
It's just sort of like a level of like where have you been all your life? Like no one has corrected this behavior. I don't know if that's how your parents raised you or whatever.
Like, you just got to fix it. Dude, it's it's so noticeable.
And I'm wondering if, like, everyone is so shocked that no one says anything like. Right. Behavior that people like would correct, but like maybe no one says anything. Yeah. OK, I'm excited to read this one and then share something he doesn't use. Dipping sauce is when he eats chicken nuggets.
Monster. I mean, I just I can go like I can go raw dog nuggets.
Never, ever remember the summer on your birthday. We were talking about the rose and the thorn of our committee.
And I said that I discovered a lot of different sources for chicken wings, sorry, chicken tenders. That was my rose of the whole quarantine. I discovered a lot of different sources. That's how passionate I am about chicken nugget dipping sauce. I wonder if he just doesn't use them like he's never really gotten into them or he's like a. dip if you're an anti dip, OK, he eats the entire shrimp, including the tail. You can eat it.
If it's deep fried, you can eat it like all over Asia. It is like pretty common to like deep fried shrimp and it just really shatters in your mouth like it's crunch shell crab. Yeah. Like sort of like that. It just it fries the shell. But I'd be curious what the preparation on the shrimp is like. Is he just like he gets like a bowl of pasta and he's like, I'm just going to eat these tails. I hate taking the tails off though.
And they give you the tails actually.
Do you not get me started on shrimp preparation? OK, I will talk about this forever. Why are we leaving tails on shrimp in hot dishes? I'm going to reach my hands into a hot alfredo sauce full of hot pasta in a nice restaurant. You dislocate the shrimp tail but in a nice restaurant. Yeah, but you tell me with working restaurants. But you have more than ideas, isn't it, to show that the shrimp is like fresher or some shit?
No, I mean to me the shells add a lot of flavor like so there it's just like when you like roast beef, chicken bones in a stock like take it off them off for me. I didn't come here to do work. I'd pay you to do the work for me. And I don't let you anywhere. I don't want any shrimp. I don't want to pick a crab out of a barbecue. My own food. I'll do this forever.
Fish in boats. Get the fuck out of here. I don't want a chicken wings. I'll never fuck with a chicken wing. I can't eat around bones. I'm scared. I'll talk about this forever. Those are like it's still different to eat a chicken wing than to me. Have to take a tail off a shrimp in my hot alfredo pasta. Right. It's only in a nice restaurant in a hot soup dish, shipping out boiling hot lava.
I got to pick lobster meat out of a shell. Your peno. You heard it here. First, I'll talk about shrimp shells forever, OK?
Scratches his balls and then sneakily smells it. He's not subtle. We all do this gross stuff. The stuff I do in the privacy of this home is disgusting. I would never do that like like with anybody even in the vicinity.
I smell like basically everything that's going on, but like, oh, no one in the privacy of my own grossness, this wouldn't be a deal breaker for me. It's just the guys are fucking gross, but sorry. OK, Hiriko, this is really what he recovers from everything with. But and that's just amazing. He is the ultimate argument to get out of anything or is just like, yeah, you can just say it about anything.
Like if there any sort of disagreement, that's just that's just anything on this list. You can come back from it. I it's so. Oh, I'm so glad we're here. OK, I want to remind you all that the name of this is you're on notice the. Oh oh. That was that was the joke I was going to make. I'm glad I'm going to this year. I know as though everything on this is is something that people who control.
It's all right. He doesn't have any siblings, you're on notice for being an only child. Why? Like, what are you supposed to do about that?
You're like, I'm an only child, just like, sure, I know you're in trouble, son. I mean, listen, I understand some people read this slide to mean, like, things that don't bother me like I mean, I think some people have in their head, like I want a partner that has a large, robust family. The last guy I fucked dated was the only child you could get after it. You can get it because you didn't have to waste all that time with siblings.
You just spent all of his time masturbating and looking at porn. There is definitely differences between people that are only children and people that have been people that have siblings. But it's like if you really like somebody, you should work. You can work on that like it's not. And he's, you know, really should be doing OK.
I just want to go over this to know this has made this entire segment worth it, you know, OK, he tells me the laundry is done instead of taking it out of the dryer. Also, he waves his penis in my face while I'm on. Zoome Is it in. Ah, is the penis in a pair of boxers. It is. He pulls his dick out.
We were talking to your boss. I just, I saw this thing with the laundry and I was like, I don't care about this. And I thought this your second submission. And I was like, oh you lead with that. Either you started with the laundry. I just. Is he coming up and, like, humping the air with pants on or does he bring his dick out while you're talking to your coworkers? There's a difference. At least I think he's wearing gray sweatpants or like shorts with no boxers.
Like, I think he's, like, swinging the deck against the pants at the very least. Yeah. He doesn't like her comment on any of my insta packs. He doesn't have social media. But still, that's so funny. That's like he never picks me up for dates. He also doesn't have a car. Like it's just like what do you want to do.
She's like, I don't care. I'm going to be mad about it. He's on notice. She's notice. You better get an Instagram. Tyler, why do I need a new name? Brenan you know, you better get a fucking Instagram. Brenin. BRENNAN You're on notice. BRENNAN OK.
Oh, he doesn't brush his teeth in the morning. I wrote that down for you.
I was like, when does but when? Just at night. Totally unacceptable. How I've never heard I've heard of people that don't do it at night.
Like, I don't think that that's like the craziest thing in the world. It's like your face.
You're like, OK, I want to is he just brush in once a day for. No, absolutely not. Get out of this relationship. Is he brushing him after he. Sometimes I used to sometimes just wake up and have breakfast and then brush my teeth. After that I always brush my teeth after my coffee. Yeah. So it sounds like he's just a once a day or in which case, like you were telling you now fucking Ron, I know no one cares more about the smell of your teeth and actually cares more about dental hygiene than me.
He insists on eating before he'll have morning sex with me. I wonder if this is like a health issue, like low, low blood sugar, slow.
Like one time I was having sex with my ex in the shower and I, you know, I passed out. I'd like get a pop tart like he brought like my my face went pale and I, like, fainted. Like, I wonder if he knows himself enough to be like, if I start pumping away, I'll faint. I never told you this. Like, he needs to get his sustenance. I never told you this.
The guy that I dated who doesn't have a family, he has to get up in the middle of the night and have like a full meal every night, like three or what, not a snack.
He gets up and makes himself, like, fully makes himself a meal, like a sandwich. I mean, he's like six four. He's a big dude. Is sexy. Yeah.
Yeah. My brother six seven. Rob is six five. Dylan is six six. None of them have to wake up and have dinner at three.
Yeah it was.
And I was like, I really, really need to wrap my head around this where I was like, do you like make the food. I had a time and like leave it in the fridge. You're not making a full meal. And he's like, Now I'd like to make the meal, like, I'm going to hate him.
OK, he wears plaid shorts. This is not 2008 anymore, Trevor. I can't imagine it. I can't even imagine a plaid shirt coming out. Right. Like, where do you even buy that? He probably had guys. Like, it's not about that. It's that they just are still wearing their shit from back then. Oh, yeah. Some girl said her boyfriend had four outfits better than to do shirt try had four outfits. Embarrassment of riches for him.
What was that guy's name. What do we call him. Three shirts rent three buffalo shirt trend. We met one year ago, Minneapolis. His name was Trent and I said I know address. He had two shirts and their friends were like, he doesn't have that many more than two and three shirts with buffalos on them.
So we call three Buffalo Shirtdress three, OK, plays his music so loud in the car, but still wants to talk over it.
What are we doing here? I have never written in a car silent. I have music on at all times, but when someone's in the car with me, we're talking. The music is like low background noise. It has to be low and you don't be one of these people. I hate the people and you know who you are, who when the directions come over, like when the directions pop up on, like the loudspeakers, you talk louder, bitch.
I'm trying to hear this. I don't care about your story. I need to go. I know a route I'm turning down. Oh, like the GPS comes on. You just start. They just talk louder to try to make sure they're talking over it. It's like your story, Jessica. I can wait the last one. We'll do a deep dive on this later. But he doesn't go down on me. I've only dated one person and it was a pretty serious problem.
Yeah, I mean it. If you put him on it and I put him on notice that we broke up, it reverberated through our whole sex life. He didn't like that. And he wasn't a particularly like adventurous person is actually like most Jews, I have to fist fight them out of my pussy. Right, OK. Queasily One more. But this is the longest episode. Whatever you guys can. What are you going.
Are you I don't fucking remember this because this was towards the end of the meet and greet. We were we we had some drinks.
This girl said that her her friend went on a date during the show. Right. So she her friend bailed on her to go on a date. Right. And I guess her friend texted her midway through the show and the guy had placed his fingers through her toes.
Which like, you know, like holding hands, but hand and foot. Was he going down? I can't. I can't I can't answer that. I've had two glasses of wine which were a little drunk towards the end. But she goes, I was just watching my friend, and she bailed. She's on the sales guy. In the last update I got was that he had lost his fingers through her toes.
Maybe she got some nice for best of luck to them. Yeah. Best of luck to listen. That guy will your posse then we were like, oh my God, is that a thing that is a guy like he's he's holding on by, like, holding hands with your feet while he eats your body. That's that's how I envision it. Like, that's the only way that he's, like, down there. Or do you think that she was just her feet were laying on his lap while they were watching a movie and you just held her and you locked I mean, you have nice toes.
Is anybody ever wanted to do that with your toes? Look at this. You like your little toes. They're poking out because you got your, like, foot on your man this guy's lap trying to get closer to him and he just holds your foot with his hand. I just I can't relate.
My toes would touch somebody and they'd be like, this is gross. Get it out of here. That I also. He brought this about. All right. Well, guys, well, thanks for listening to this longer episode. You can still purchase the live show for a few more days this week. That link is on our Instagram BuYeo. And it's also if you just go to on location live and go to OnDemand, you should see it there.
And Girl's Got to Eat podcast, Dotcom's our website, merchandized and tour dates and all those things. Hopefully new tour dates soon. Girl's got a podcast. Instagram Ash has Randy Greenberg girls underscore got it on Twitter and YouTube. Dotcom Sushko said he killed it.
Oh good. I need to take a breath. Yeah that's it. Have a good week I.