What I also found was that when an individual shared their story with me afterwards, many people would say, wow, like you're the only one I've told or I haven't told many people this and felt really nice to share that.

Hi, guys. Hi, guys. Welcome back to another episode of Girls Got a welcome back and fuck you, Brandon Rossi. Not anymore. You guys bombed us with this may be validated us. There was for almost a cool but no deep enough. You did not. I read everyone you got me. Let's thanks of our partners. Thank you to Buffy for supporting girl's gotta eat for twenty dollars off all Buffy bedding. Visit Buffy Dacko and enter the promo code.

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Fresh water for my beef. But I here Jenny Jones saying that you do have open frightening vocal fry. Oh I think you were saying it was Jenny's birthday yesterday and I posted that story of her like like voice mocking her. Yeah. I just like thinking about your be we like talking about on the show. Your dad's been thinking about my dad every time we talk is like. I was talk about her. So, all right, we listen, we read listen to an old episode recently and we'll get to why.

OK, spoiler alert, it's Dalmar still Moss' in the news and he's a former guest. We're going to spill all the tea we have until coming in hot.

But in that episode, your dad came up. You said something about your dad and I go, oh, my God, this is the first time we brought up your dad in that episode. And because we always. You talk about your mom. Oh, yeah. Because I like to start the podcast for me to listen to that and say, oh, my God, we never talk about your dad when literally all we've done recently is talk about your dad.

It was a very funny thing to hear.

I remember that episode so well because, like, I was like, oh, I have a dad, like, surprise. I have a dad because my mom was like the third host of this podcast. And then also like it was like I never had a mom again. We never talked about my mom ever again. All right, guys, really quick, up top. We just want to say this episode is about abortion. We just want to let you know that it is a episode filled with a lot of factual information, statistics.

We have a doctor. She is a new author named Miramshah. And we stuck to a lot of facts. We talk about some things politically, but it's really more of discussing abortion as opposed to a lot of emotion and opinions surrounding it. So I think you guys know where we stand and we'll dive into this further during the interview. You know that we are pro-choice, but we can certainly respect a difference in opinion, especially when it comes to a woman and how she feels about her own body.

What we are not OK with is obviously when someone forces their belief system on others and it impacts them in a negative way for choices that they should be able to make on their own. You guys know what I mean? But I just wanted to say that if you are someone who believes life begins at conception, I don't want you to worry that we are going to criticize that belief in this episode. You wrap that up.

And I Slobo thinks that you guys know that, like on this podcast, we just want to be supportive of most of your lifestyle choices. And this one obviously is a sensitive subject. And I'm really proud of this interview because I think we really did take a lot of our emotions and opinions out of it. It's a lot of straightforward facts. And she's so great, this doctor. And of course, Ashley and I are pro-choice and pro whatever you guys want to do with your own bodies and not judging what other people do with their bodies.

And we will talk about later. But we we have not had abortions, so we're not discussing an experience at her. And I had so I was excited to have a doctor to discuss that on the show. Yeah.

So anyway, just glad I got to let you know up top, if it's a topic you don't want to hear about right now, I encourage I encourage you to listen the intro, because I it's going to be a hot one, but, you know, always just got to let you guys know. Also, I'm a doctor now, you know, like I'm a brain doctor. Yeah. You're neurologist. Yeah. People were really into that. Dr.

Greenberg. Yeah, I talked about the hippocampus last week and all those. I don't remember any other words.

I said frontal lobe, amygdala, amygdala is my personal favorite. Is the cerebellum. No, your hippocampus. You put that word so hard hippocampi. I want to get to the hippocampus when you're trouble. I want to tell you something funny that just happened.

So we got a little bit of a late start today because as you guys know, I use the peloton in my building and I it's usually nobody's on it. I usually go down there. The is open on our top. Right on. I go down there today. I was going to start my work on it too, and this guy is on it. And I was like, oh what the fuck. So I walked in there and I was going to try to, you know, from a distance kind of get a vibe for how long of a workout he was doing.

So I know when I could come back when you said get a vibe for how long? That's not where I thought this was going. So hear me out. What's flopping around in those jean shorts? Yeah, in those jean shorts I workout. I'm like those jean shorts. Yeah. So I but I realize that he's attractive. So I got to, I open the door and I was like, hey, do you. And he knew exactly what I wanted to know because I my cycling shoes in my hand and he was like, I'm only doing twenty minutes.

And I was like OK. So I'm like I'll come back, I'll come back.

So that's amazing.

So I was like, I'll come back and at two twenty five whatever. And I'm like, who is that dude. Like I'd never seen him before. He wasn't the guy that I like in your building now. I got worried it was him. No, no, no. Maybe he was in the South Tower. I'm not sure. I've never seen him before and I was like huh. But I couldn't get a vibe for really his stature, which is important to me as a tall woman.

So when I went back down to twenty five to get on the bike, he was gone. But his bike setting told you that I was.

So I ride at twenty six. That's his. Was it a nineteen. No. Which is not that huge of a difference. Also you when you get that balance like, like the seat height is know twenty six is bigger than the seat height. Right.

So I have very long legs of a tall person but I just feel like I can't not for a man in nineteen really.

Everybody listening to this is laughing because they know what you mean, not laughing. Because I'm like I don't know what that means. But he sounds a little. But I mean, he could. A long torso and shorter legs, which I don't know if I want to part of that either, you know, like a long legged man or the huge torso, I only watch into Shultz's videos and look at those ankles. That is a man was watching as long as his long legs and his big hands.

Anyway, we know a lot of Western fans. It's fine. I like his body type. And I had this moment like it's my type. I am really out here investigating in the height of his peloton, see to see if he is height appropriate.

For me, this is important information and it's like I would go on LinkedIn to research if a guy really had a job. He told me so like, of course you're looking at like the lowest hanging fruit and find out how tall he is. You're tall person. And then guess what else I did? I forgot the hair tie. I was I was already clipped in, so I'm clipped in the bike. What does that mean? Like my my shoes already in there.

I forgot a hair tie. I use my mask and tied it around, which I've done that before. I've done that before. I have used the mask to tie my hair up. This is not weird. I understand this. This is not weird. It was one of our special masks that we got from Jill Zarin and Ali Shapiro. They sell mask, check them out, go to Jill's Erens shop. It worked really well. I just use the loops and like made it didn't work really well.

It worked. My hair was crazy enough to hold itself up.

I did walk in here and you were showering clean and behold. I have to tell you a tip, a tip that a listener emailed us. I was very excited. I asked you to please not read this email, OK? All right. The title is Email is good tip for girls. I had to share. It was really short. We love your short emails. Please continue to submit short emails. OK, I don't know if you're going to see this, but I had a good tip for girls.

I told my dumb ass boyfriend in the Navy that for four years, my dumb ass boyfriend amazing and the beginning of our relationship, that a girl is more likely to get pregnant if she doesn't come. So, like, if she doesn't get off, she might get pregnant. I made something up like, yeah, when I come, your cum can't go up. I'm on birth control and we are completely safe. My boyfriend has been pretty motivated to make me come for the last four years now and he still believes this.

If she doesn't come, she's more likely that they'll get pregnant. So she told him this. So he makes sure he works hard to make her confess because like the muscles in your body, the contract, when you come make it to the you can't get pregnant. She told us. She told him. That's not true, guys. It's not true at all. That's a crazy thing. And the area that exists that is so funny. I'd like, you know, but like, you know, you could tell like a twenty one year old boy this and they would believe you 100 percent.

You try telling a 41 year old man that say probably to you, I just think this is so funny. And I can see that she just like told this like twenty one year old, her dumb ass boyfriend. And he's like, I don't want to get pregnant, I got to make her come. But does that like I can see that making sense to some people. Yeah. OK, I love it. You said listener email and I just got to bring this up because I wanted to also kind of offer a low key apology about this.

We got an email from a listener subject line Buzz Buzz Bawls. She said, I have a very important follow up question regarding the episode with Beatrice Dixon a few weeks ago in the episode she talks about, but like fluttering your lips on a guy's balls. Which we all said we were going to go home, we all said we were going to try. I haven't had a ball sack in my face. Well, that episode. Hear me out.

She said my boyfriend of two years is pretty willing to try anything. I told about this when he was excited, blah, blah, blah. When I went to lip flutter, my lips just stopped. Which when you think about it, go ahead and try right now, flutter your lips and put the back of your hand to it. They just stop immediately. So the second you touch your lips, you stop fluttering them. OK, so how does that work?

So she goes. So anyway, after being stopped dead in my tracks, I still have my lips partly open from the attempted flutter and now a more so just blowing hot air on my boyfriend's ball sack. Yum. Have either of you tried this yet? What am I doing wrong? Well, thank you and I love you. We gave you bad advice.

I didn't think of it logistically. And no, you can't flutter your lips on a parable. OK, I do have a tip, but it would never work. OK, here's OK. All services would have to be totally dry if there's no moisture, I can see it. Not like because your balls are not like your hand. Like they will sort of move. It's a sack, it's a hanging sack. But like your balls have to be not sweaty and your lips have to be not moist.

And neither of those things are happening when you're like aroused. But even like like try to put your finger in your mouth and follow your lips.

You can't you can't do it.

If anything is if anything is touching. I can't do it. That's right, yeah, so I wanted to apologize for any of you guys that were fluttering your lips on your boyfriend's balls we gave you credit for. In our defense, we didn't say we'd ever done it. And also probably Beatrice, it probably gave you guys something fun to talk about with your boyfriend. But can you imagine when she said now a more so just blowing hot air on my boyfriend's ball sack I lost.

Do you think you picture my dad? Listen to that episode. He asked his wife to do it. I actually can't believe we didn't hear about this from Bill first. I know that I gave him bad sex advice. He has been in like a tremendously good mood. Buzz Buzz builds balls. Yeah, I just think, like, bought and his balls buzzed.

In other words, hot air blowing. Listen, he's in Texas. There's not much else to do there right now, OK? He's already kicked one side, right? I support him getting his balls. I'm down a road. I don't want to be down. Yeah, let's go.

Anyway, I want to apologize to you guys. And while we're talking about the listeners, do unto our brand an update. Yeah. So never in the history of the podcast have we mentioned a name on the show and gotten so many emails talking about that person's name. I will say no one's going to defend a Kyle or a chad because I think that, like, traditionally historically, those guys are terrible. And I don't think anybody has any stories that would surprise or shock anybody.

But Brandon is like a really shocking one. And we got tagged in a bunch of stories about Brandon, about that girl. Son should accuse me. Brandon, if you guys aren't familiar, we hope that you're listening to every episode. But just in case you're not whatever. Last week we read this email from a listener. And by the way, you guys love that episode. Thank you so much. You really went crazy for the episode titled Your Man Who's Not Your Man and a listener ended an email with saying, fuck you, Brennan.

And it really caught on. I personally love it because of stepbrother's. Can't recommend that movie enough. You know, it's old. And I also forgot about the line. Brennan has a mangena, remember? They all are chanting it. Well, did Jenny Jenny Jones, she's the one who said it. But I want to read my favorite Brandon email.

Dearest Ashley and Raina. I've only ever known one Brenan. I assure you he was not cool. We met at summer camp where one day while in the sauna, he asked a small group of us if we had ever heard of the Dark Web. A couple of years later, he was arrested for attempting to import illegal weapons and building pipe bombs in his basement. I've attached the news article for my receipt. First of all, love, love anybody.

It sends a receipt. I think this girl is so smart. What? Who is out here building pipe bombs? The next one, she said her ex, Brandon, was OK, except he did get upset when anyone brought up Stepbrother's and said he had a mangena.

Also, he was a Taurus man and it showed. But other than that, he was a good Brenin. And then this this one, she said he wore a back brace on the outside of his clothes and then, oh, he should look up Niebuhrian sky. You think that it was four hundred percent goes for fashion over function.

I wonder if nice guy is named Brennan. And then one girl, a sister named Brennan, which I like the name for a girl, of course, as always. And then the last good one was just one to let you know that the only Brennan I know is a hardcore Trump supporter. So that's the Brennan update. It's a great Brennan. You guys, like, really flooded the the emails in the Dems to just give us Brennan updates. Thank you so much.

Yeah, we have an update on something, our march when to talk about our stuff.

Yeah, it's highwater stuff. We've all new stuff. We did a whole new brand at Gloop and we have gifts you guys use like crazy on my favorite. OK, I think we're Amsalem favorite gift. My favorite gift is your legs spreading up and down and up and down.

You guys, I know rain is a true friend. Why you just like my Eric if you like you are you're not being competitive with me about your gifts versus my gifts. There is a clear favorite is clearly the favorite. And we did think we're going to get to use that one because it like came in a little blurry the first time. So I didn't know we're going to use it. It's just it's the best gift.

It works so well for everything. Yes. We love the website. Thank you guys for going and checking on a desktop like we asked you to. That was so sweet. The merch. We had a few glitches. It was not our fault at all. Factors completely out of our control. And if you thought you were pissed you couldn't buy merch, I guarantee you we were more pissed. We do own you merge. We have we have robes.

We sleep mass. We are bomber jackets, tank tops, t shirts with all kinds really cool new stuff. We have a wine glass that that says the actually my rain on the way to my Ashley. What should you do emerge. You do you just give me a side. I was like, why don't we do things like making noises. He's hungry but we'll do do emerge. We really do want to get on some since March March. So we still have more coming.

We're working on it. What were you going to say? But you have an update. I have an update on well the world has an update on it. Then I want you to give us some information about it. So the world found out that the newest bachelor at Clare Crawley, who is also the oldest bachelor at she has since dropped out of the show because she has fallen in love with our former guest. And Ashlee's Axtell. You know what, Ashley's former boyfriend, Darryl Moss, my former man who was never my major man, is not your man.

He walked in. He was one of our first guests.

He walked in to the interview and I was like, I like the breath out of my lungs. He's so beautiful.

Like, I hadn't fully prepared you. Like, you know, she's some people you look at and you're like, oh, you're supposed to be a model. Like God put you on this earth to be a model. So I actually started dating him. Oh, my God.

That point we've broken up, not with you because again, we went to it, but when we used to have this thing, we were like, we didn't know each other that while the beginning of the podcast. And we were like, OK, like, which one of us is going to fuck which ghast? And so like that you were the clear frontrunner on that. Yeah. So I would just like to share my story about Dale because he's in the news right now and we encourage you guys to go back and listen to episode summer twenty eighteen.

It's called Still Not a Player. Great episode. He's a great guy. I have nothing but good things to say. My history with Dale was that we met at an event one night. Of course, I spotted him. Most beautiful man in the room. You know, he's tall. You guys know he played NFL football. He's a model. And we really. Like, OK, you know, I'm so confident, like probably more so like I like reverse body dysmorphia, but I still just wouldn't think a guy like that would be interested in me.

And I'm also not saying that he was. But you see somebody like that and you're like, we'll just be friends, you know what I mean? That's how I feel about your friend trouble. I mean, you see him and you're like, he's not. I'm actually ultra confident around people like that. Seem like they would. They were. Yeah. So I don't really even like, put on a Schrade. So I'm like, oh, you're not fucking my right.

So I'm never really seeking out the hottest guy in the room ever. Funniest, yes. But, you know, it's just not what I'm looking for.

So we actually really we met we were introduced by a friend of ours named Pavane and we sat on the bar. We, like, shut that boy, shut it down. We just kept drinking margaritas. We were we ordered food. We had like a night where we, like, really got to know each other probably for a couple hours. And I was like, this guy is so wonderful. And then he was like, hey, you want to go to this event with me next week?

And I'm like, Sure, I'm sure I'm going to go to this event with you, Dale.

But when you hear the event, we'll get gas.

And we alluded to this on the episode, but we never really dove deep into, like, any sort of thing that he and I had, which was not a thing, and it was the thing that wasn't a thing. So he invited me to this premiere, this movie premiere event that was at Tao downtown. And then I just was like, I bet. And then forgot about it. Day of the event, I was out, we recorded and I went to meet my friend Raquel, who also owned Sweet Beach in L.A. She was in town for the Met Ball Casual.

We went had drinks and he's like, hey, do you are you still coming to the event? And I was like, oh, my God. I was wearing like a cropped jean, like nothing fancy at a backpack.

You're right. High water. If you had a backpack, I had a backpack. And so I was like, oh my God, yeah, of course I'm going go meet this guy. So I get there. The girls that checked me in looked me up and down and I was like, hey, can I put my backpack?

And then when I told them I was Dalys, guess they were like, you like, I can look so great.

It just wasn't what? That it wasn't one of those nights. Also, Tao is not a place to not look like. OK, I interviewed a movie premiere tonight at Town. I want to tell you about how I interviewed a talent ten years ago to be a restaurant manager. And I was talking to them and they were like, OK, so one of our things here is that we actually even if your table's ready, we make you wait an hour in the bar.

And I was like, why? And they're like, it just makes people want it more. Right. Like, that's the kind of place like holding the line outside a club when you really don't even need to to give it the allure that like that's the place to be. So we bring back these girls were like I was like, I'm Dale Moss' plus one. And they were like, I bet you are, sweetie. Also, can you store my backpack?

I cannot. It was to me though, so it's not so I feel so underdressed.

I really felt kind of I did feel a little self-conscious to be wearing jeans and like just a black cap sleeve bodysuit. And all these people are super dressed up at a bush fest in the fashion capital of the USA. So we like joked about it and stuff. But like, I thought I thought maybe he had other people with him, like, no, it was just me and him, like it was just us. And like we it felt dated at points.

But again, I still really don't think that it was. And we joked about this on our episode with him. So, you know, you can listen back, you decide for yourselves. But I do remember we went to this other kind of separate room that a bunch of sushi out we had. We were there kind of just off to ourselves, sitting on like a couch, having drinks and sushi and like really talked for an hour or two, just one on one.

And like we were talking about family stuff and opening up about some deeper topics. And he really is such a genuinely kind person. And when you talk to him, he's so engaging. He listens. He looks you in the eye, he looks into your soul. Like I say this to tell you that I don't know Clare Crawley. I don't know what she's like as a person, but I know Dale. And for somebody on The Bachelorette that meets a lot of guys that probably skew a little narcissist that probably you're just out for fame.

If you meet him and you connect with him because of who he is as a person and how he makes you feel when you talk to him, like I can 100 percent get how she fell in love with him. You really sound like you're over the breakup.

Oh, my God, I hate you.

I am telling the listeners my experience. I definitely didn't fall for him. We walked out that night. We did Instagram story. I didn't even go home and, like, think about it anymore. I was like, you know, masturbate at all to it. I just felt like I still even even to connect on that level. I still felt like it was a friend vibe. Yeah, I promise. I'm just joking. Dale, I and I Cosan everything I said.

I think that he is really one of the sweetest man that we've ever had on the podcast. He won't say a bad word about anybody. His eyes are so beautiful. I go swimming in them. He is a wonderful person to be around and like I would watch those too far because he is beautiful.

Yeah. I also texted him. I got a little update for us. Get the fuck out. I can use some of. My God, I'm so excited.

Yeah, I checked in with him the other day. I said, I said, hey, our dams are blowing up about you, smiley face. I hope all is well and excited to see you on TV soon. I want him to know that I wasn't digging for information like I thought. He's not going to give it to me and I want to like, respect that, obviously. Well, I want him to give it to you. I'm glad you dug for me.

He said, hey, hey. Lots of rumors out of. But should be an interesting season. Hope you're doing well. I had people hitting me up like crazy about the podcast last few days once I got my phone back, because, you know, you can have your phone, huh? Of course, you guys were fucking in those days. I love you. Little slots. I love you guys. Every man that we have on this show, you guys slide in.

So go listen to the episode. We're obviously tuned into the season. And then did you even mention that basically Claire quit and then they're bringing in Tatia to replace her midseason, which is unprecedented? I would know. I've seen every season does not happen before. I mean, you know, I only watch Shared for recaps The Bachelor. Rayna started watching The Bachelor when Jared our live screaming I it's all I do. I actually I sent Ashley Sean Lowe last week and she was like, that's not news.

That's he has 14 kids with the person you married from The Bachelor at this point. So can you guys please post a story of Raina and Sean Lowe and do the hot take over?

It's like it's like launderettes as you I was like setting actually all of his Instagram story posted. She's like, I seen this before. This is not a hot take. This is unprecedented gossip. I love this. I am living for this. And then I didn't watch it, but I saw the chicks in the office who we love. And we've we've been on their podcast. They had Nechvatal on and he was like, this could all be like producers.

You never know The Bachelor. The Bachelor. People are like the best at what they do. Yes, absolutely. The only people that work harder than Kris Jenner, in my opinion. But this is going to be crazy. Like if she Ferndale fall in love, then they leave right off into the sunset. And then Tatia just comes in and I'm assuming and then has the same guys, like they're not recasting, like she's just going to they're just going to, like, fucking flip flop it.

I mean, those guys are just there for Instagram followers, so they don't care who's on the show to get the Instagram followers for that.

Do you think is going to be like I want to, Dayle? Yeah, I think everyone on Earth would get there and be like I wanted Dayle, the hottest man on earth. There is one of the best looking man I've ever shared breathing air with.

Sounds like you're not Oprah. Can you see the headline now? Pathetic Girl's got to eat cohosts in love with no right about us.

And I love it because I mean, God, if I would have known delves into older women, I would try to hit harder. I wish you would have had sex with your was one of us had sex Delmas. I still do it too. He just wasn't in like he just wasn't like in the right headspace for a girlfriend when we met, you know what I mean? You're wearing a backpack.

No guy's ever for the girl. The bag that I put the backpack down before I even saw him, it was in the coalition. I was big backpack energy on your body.

One of those is the when nobody I was like, hey, you don't know me with this girl. You showed up for you.

I was like, what are those? What are those? Like PR interns who checked me in was like, oh, fuck, no, that girl's not going to get with Delmas. I'm glad for him about the backpack immediately.

And what are her jeans? You don't know me, but this girl is bad for your image. They were like a strong mom. Jean. I know the Jean. Yeah, I know. Oh, my gosh. OK, Dale T Brenan update.

We had puppies named after us, actually continuously sent this to me and I paid no attention. And then I was like I was like he was dogs named Raina. And you were like, I was sad to this year and I like really Dobbyn. I was like, oh my God, there's like a dog. They write the name Dogs after so muddy paws rescue don't do you. I'm full. I met this girl named Julie one time at a rescue event and she is a follower of Girls Got to Eat.

She approached me. I was like, I love the podcast. And there was like a dog that day that look like DeWees. We were like bonding over that. And she messaged me and was like, we got three new puppies in or they're on the way. They rescued them from somewhere in the south, I think. And she said, we're naming them Ashley, Raina and Marel. And then she sent three photos. And I was like, can I just know which is which?

Because, like, Merrill wasn't ask you what I would have had to know. Ashley right over the cutest. Yeah, the cute. Yeah. Sorry, Maril, you're not the host of the show. Right. That's I feel like Julie knew that. Like you're not going to make whatever. All puppies are cute. All babies are beautiful. No they're not. But you're not like you just give you the ugliest one. The sidekick nightmare. I was fine with that Haralson care, but then I was just happy to be there.

I noticed that the then they were there fostered for a couple of weeks. And I noticed that Reyna's foster parents are posting about her on Instagram.

Ashley is nowhere to be found. So you see Irana, you scoop her out. So I'm just not mad. The comments are so funny that baby Raina, baby Raina is a. And so I messaged Julian like, hey, I noticed Reyna's Foster has been posting and I was just wondering what's going on with Ashley.

Nothing gets by you. You could just enjoy your weekend. You had to check with the shelter and be like, why is the dog doing better?

No, I just want to just stay here.

I mean, I feel so honored to have these puppies named after us, so honor. So I still haven't got an update, but I'm sure she's doing fine. All I can think about all week was like, what have you showed up at someone's house? And you're like, Hi, my name is Brianna. And they'd be like, Oh my God, what's your dog's name? Your grandma like? That would be a crazy thing if someone named their dog after themselves told.

Now I'm going to we know that you guys like Rex from us every week. I don't have, like, a crazy amount of Rex neck. I am fully committed to watching Love on the spectrum next week. OK, because Dillon said it's God damn it, it's more fucking airtime on this podcast than I do. He said, it's so sweet and wonderful and beautiful and sincere that you had. He said, dude, bro, you have to watch it.

I'm committed to that for next week. Do you want to commit to that? Well, I have. So we're recording this on August 6th, August seven, tomorrow selling sunset. So I going to have to review that. But like we should is what we're going to get there. I love it both. OK, what I watched last night, though, I watched Last Chance. You watch. I know you love. Yeah, I watched the first season of it last night.

The latest season. Yeah. I'm in Oakland. Yeah. Oh you're so up to date on last chance you. I've watched a few. I didn't know it was five seasons. I thought it was a one season docu series. I threw it on last night. I was like, oh really. But I love if you guys want to watch like a sports talk, it's really moving through all these, like underprivileged kids and, you know, their stories and their playing college football.

And I loved it. Yeah, it's the first two I think are at the same school like. Yeah. And then the I forget the third season, the fourth season I didn't love and then that coach actually got in trouble. I didn't love his energy. And then this, the season five is good. I like it.

I used to like sports stuff a lot more.

I find myself just like a little less like I don't know. I think your taste change. Yeah. Like I just.

Well so I feel like we got inundated with all the thirty four thirty stuff.

I've watched all of that and more schooled. I've watched like a million sports about. Yes. And I also last week watched the last dance which I thought was save the last dance for calling it Save the Last Dance to a lot of people. They thought I was doing well the dance movie but I watched the last dance with Michael Jordan. I just watched the first three episodes, but it was very good. Very well then. Those are two good ones.

And yeah, last chance, you and I talk about that one a lot. That's one of her favorites. I will say, like cheers, a similar vibe. It's like a last chance place, you know what I mean? Like, it's kind of like the people that had to leave other colleges, universities for various reasons, or they have had more trouble at home. They go to these places. So cheers. The cheerleading of last chance.

You and I just like I just liked it more. You, Dad.

I don't know. I don't know what it is. I used to watch so many sports stuff, like with an ex of mine and I you ever look back and you wonder, did I like them or did I like watching him? No, I genuinely enjoyed watching sports stuff with him when we were in a relationship. I wasn't pretending. But then I feel like, do you ever look back and you're like, was it just that we were sharing something together that on my own I actually don't enjoy that much?

Yeah, I feel like I enjoy certain people's commentary about stuff or enjoy knowing we're going to fuck when this is over. Yeah. And like I'm doing it to make them happy. Like I genuinely enjoyed watching Last Chance you season one or season two or both.

I forget like with him and I am like I don't know, I don't know if this is for me anymore anyway. I just that it's just something to resonate on. I'm here. I was thinking.

Yeah. Marinaded not resonate. I just been thinking about that recently. Like the stuff you do with partners that you think you like and you think you would do alone after your relationship ends, but you really don't like it.

Have you ever camped with anybody? No, but I actually somebody that I dated in the fall called me to, you know, ruin my life this weekend because, you know, he smelled that I was over him. And I'll tell you what, you sent me the wrong screenshot because it had his phone number listed. I meant to call him myself. I have some words for him. I hate him. And he doesn't have a family. Yeah, I'm you all.

He sniffed out that I was enjoying my life and I hadn't thought about him in a really long time. And he said it to sweep it and have a two hour phone call with me. And I let him know that you can't go camping because you'll get murdered because I listen to part predators. So many you tag me in that I want hype it other podcast. It's hard, but like, whatever it is, it proves my point that, like, you'll get serial killer to if you go.

Yeah. And then he said to me, if we end up together he'll go camping with me. And I was like, and I'm sure glad you called me in three months. Blocked Raina. That should have been your sign from the gods. This guy's like, I'll make you camp with me. Blocked that should you should have known in that moment. I'm sick of him coming out your life. I'm texting him now actually. No, I'm face time in it.

I want him to see this face when I tell him to leave you the fuck alone or I'm going to. New Web site for something for emotional distress, like stole my phone, I was go to the bathroom and you FaceTime and everybody can have, like, some sexy talk with me in your face.

Listen up, mother fucker. He needs to apologize to me. Oh, man. All right. Well, is that all we have?

And that's all we have time at. We will watch and stuff next week for you guys, keep you updated on our thoughts and feelings. And then, you know, check out the merch. We're going to thank a couple of our partners and then we are going to dive into it with. Yeah, OK. But you just stood up and you have you have bellybuttons. Sweat is what you have. And if were you ever I swear, this is like full body stomaches.

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We are so excited to have her on the show today. She is a family physician and the chief medical officer of Planned Parenthood, Hudson Sonic. How is it? I almost got there in New York. She's also a fellow with the Physicians for Reproductive Health. She graduated from USC and received her medical degree from GW and has a double master's from Columbia Show-Off. And she is the author of the upcoming book, You're the Only One I've Told The Stories Behind Abortion.

Please welcome to the show Miramshah. Hey, guys. Hey, so much for having me. Hi. Thank you for being here.

So I'm obsessed with your book. I am reading it. I haven't finished it. And just up top, I have to say, like, I'm just so floored and impressed by it. I want everyone to buy it. It's so incredible. Just like the introduction alone, which we'll get into some of those topics. And then obviously the stories, it's just so, so great. I was Rhiner is reading after me. We only got one advance copies.

That's why she isn't ready yet. But I was telling her the story that you open with the story about being a target. This isn't a spoiler alert, guys. It's the very beginning of the book. And we like I teared up while I teared up when I read it. And then I teared up again, recounting it to write and then she teared up. And it's just like it's just so beautiful.

So we're we're happy and we're really happy to have you here to talk about that. We haven't really talked about abortion in depth. And so we're really excited about a woman and a doctor to talk about that. And you are good friends with our good friend Meral. That's how we know you. Yes. Yes. She definitely connected us. Thank you, Meryl. Shout out to Meryl. And I'm so glad to be on your show. I think this is I know this is an incredibly important topic.

And especially with the upcoming election, it's really important that we talk about abortion and dispel all of the myths and it's commonly misunderstood. And, you know, I want to talk about it and provide all the most accurate information. So thanks for bringing me on the show. Yeah, of course.

Yeah, I well, I would love to hear from you and Ashley and all of our listeners. I'm a little bit more about you and just how you got into this line of work, why you picked this field. And yeah, if you could talk a little bit more about that, we would love that.

Yeah. So, you know, I am the daughter of Indian immigrants, so I'd be lying if I said that, you know, becoming a doctor, lawyer, engineer wasn't part of my DNA. Honestly, guys, I was forced into this. That's my truth. Yes.

I mean, it is it is, you know, part of our upbringing that, you know, you must have a graduate degree, blah, blah, blah. I know 17 of them. So Ivy League, get it out of the park. But, you know, I did have that example in my family.

My my father's a physician. My brother's a physician. And so that's sort of where it began. But I also ever since I was little, I've had a strong sense of social justice. And it wasn't really until residency that I had a mentor who introduced reproductive justice to me. And she Linda Prine is her name. She's also in the book, um, made abortion so normal.

And she is really the one who taught all of the residents that there are so much there's so much shame and stigma around this issue. But it is life saving. It is critical and it is just normal. And one out of four women has an abortion in her lifetime. And, you know, as a family physician, abortion should be presented as just a very normal option for patients to access and to have in the same way that continuing a pregnancy is immediately met with compassion and understanding and oftentimes enthusiasm.

Right. So abortion is just the natural normal part of somebody's reproductive life span. And then, you know, when I trained in abortion care and started providing abortion care, I very quickly realized that there there are so many policies that limit our ability to practice abortion care. I live and I work in New York, but I've also provided abortion care in Indiana, in Texas. And I've seen before my eyes the difficulty in which patients have to go in order to get just basic health care.

And there is no other procedure or service in health care that has been as politicized as abortion. And, you know, we can get into why that is and sort of the history behind that, because it is just really easy for politicians to use social justice issues such as gay marriage judges, you know, gun violence such as abortion for their own political gain. It's awful. It's terrible. It's, you know, a human rights violation. But they do it anyways and and it works for them.

But at the end result is that it hurts people and we can talk about that more. Good.

We're going to talk to you about the shame around it and how this has been politicized. And, you know, just actually I talked up top, but, you know, we haven't had abortion, so I don't even know how. Like, I don't know what that looks like medically, so we would love to sort of unpack that with you just to begin with. For someone who's never had one. Yeah. Or might be thinking about it, I have no idea what it looks like.

Yeah. So, I mean, I think it is good to start with the basics. I get asked this question a lot, so there are a couple of ways to have an abortion.

So the actual medical definition of an abortion is the termination of a pregnancy. So it can be an induced abortion or it can be a spontaneous abortion. So a spontaneous abortion is another word or is another way to say miscarriage? An induced abortion can happen with a procedure or with medicines.

So a procedure, a procedural abortion is where the patient comes to a health center, lays on a table and puts their their legs and a leg rest or a foot rest. And we use a speculum, the same device that's used when an individual has a PAP test. So we use a speculum to visualize the cervix. So then the cervix is dilated with these metal dilators that gradually increase in size. And we dilate the cervix based on how far or how pregnant the individual is.

After we insert a little cannula that's like the size of a straw into the cervix and then into the uterus. And we apply like a suction on the other end to then remove the contents of the uterus or in other words, to remove the pregnancy.

The whole process takes less than two minutes. It's really quick. There's different levels of what we call sedation that a person can receive. A patient can have just local sedation, which is just a little bit of lidocaine or numbing medication around the cervix, or they can receive medication through their I.V. Fentanyl, which is a narcotic and verse said, which is like Xanax.

It's in the same family of medications.

And that just sort of they're like a wake, but a little groggy. You know, the medicines take the edge off. Is it really painful?

So what I do tell patients is that they will feel cramping, but it's literally less than two minutes. And I tell them that it's nothing they can't handle. And most my patients do just fine, more or less painful than an IUD.

Yeah, it's a bit similar. I have not had one, but I've just heard, you know, of course, it's manageable ever. You know, all the women that I know that have gotten IUDs have gotten through it. But they mentioned cramping. And I was wondering, it was a similar sensation.

It's similar sensation, because any time you stretch the cervix that triggers the pain, it triggers cramping. And like it's like when someone somebody goes into labor, their cervix is dilating and that's why they're feeling so much pain.

So, you know, I always tell patients, like if you saw what I was doing on my end, you would you would actually probably be shocked that what I'm doing is causing so much of a pain sensation. But, yeah, it's a it's a very quick procedure. I'm very safe. It has a less than point five percent complication rate, OK? It is one of the safest medical procedures that we that we do in medicine.

So the other way of having an abortion is with medications. It's called a medication abortion. It involves two pills. So the first pill is called mifepristone. Mifepristone was FDA approved in 2000 and it ends the pregnancy.

And then the second set of pills are taken at home and the patient will either insert them in the vagina or put them between the cheeks, let the pills dissolve. And then, you know, after about 30 minutes, swallow those pills. And those pills called misoprostol will induce cramping and bleeding and expulsion of the pregnancy. So it's almost like causing a miscarriage at home in a lot of that safe. It's incredibly safe. Has, you know, a similar safety profile as the procedural abortion.

Now, a lot of people ask me, like, you know, Dr. Child, what's what's better? What should I do? And I say, well, let me let's talk about what's important to you. Is it important to you to be able to do this in the privacy of your own home? Or is it important to you to just come in pregnant and leave not pregnant from an office? Right. Both ways are effective, safe. It's really about what the patient wants their abortion experience to look like.

OK, and then time frame, first trimester. So that's a great question. Like, does that so method matter with how pregnant you are? I guess. Yeah.

So we so medication abortion can be done up to 11 weeks of pregnancy. And then in New York State, the legal limit is twenty four weeks for an abortion. And after that, thanks to the Reproductive Health Act, which passed. Year patients are allowed to have abortions past 24 weeks if the fetus has something that is not compatible with life or if the pregnancy is threatening the life in the health of the parent.

OK, so let's talk about first trimester, second trimester, a later abortion and discuss some of the facts surrounding that, because I think some people might hear that you can get an abortion at 24 weeks in some states and they're doing the math. And that might sound a little crazy to them. I for one, I'm one of those people that have done some research on it and we want you to speak on on it.

So the vast majority of abortions in this country occur in the first trimester and the vast majority of the abortions that occur in the first trimester occur less than eight weeks in pregnancy. So it's a smaller percentage of patients who are seeking abortion later in pregnancy. And as I said earlier, the situations in which patients are seeking later abortion are unique and parents are choosing to have an abortion for reasons that are very personal and usually related to the health of the fetus that they're carrying.

OK, so if you were to qualify it with like a percentage, like how many people are doing it, first trimester, over 99 percent of abortions occur in the first trimester. So, you know, it's it's not uncommon for me to see patients who are so early that, you know, the pregnancy test is barely even positive. People know their bodies. And and, you know, soon as they miss a period, they they they tend to act pretty quickly.

Yeah. We just want to clear that up because, you know, I'm not going to get into it. But clearly, I think there's been some things from some of our political leaders and whatnot that twist that narrative of a later abortion and just spew things that aren't accurate.

So, yeah, and I think that's I think it's important to talk about that and to clear up all the myths.

And then obviously this looks different in every state in terms of a where you can even go the waiting periods, making you listen to an ultrasound, all these things that are basically designed to try to deter you not to do it. And I mean, can we talk about that a little bit?

Definitely. And that's actually, you know, that's it's a really big discussion. And it's an important one because unfortunately, the zip code in which you live really dictates the type of care that you receive and what your abortion looks like. Does it also dictate in terms of a doctor like what you have to say to a patient? Like, do you have to say to a patient that you just talked about, like, do you have to talk to them about do you really want to do this stuff like that?

Are you legally bound to do something like this? So again, that also depends on where you live.

So counseling is a really important part of any medical procedure, right?

Like in medicine, we always go over the risks, benefits and the alternatives of any procedure that's just like the standard of care. And then we tailor our counseling to the individual patient's needs because no two patients are alike. Right? No two lives are alike. However, in many states, there are mandated required like scripts that the physician has to read to the patient. In Texas, when I was there and providing abortion care, I had to tell the patient that abortion causes breast cancer.

Now, that's not true, but that's crazy. Just the misinformation. That's a lot of the law that you have to say that to somebody. Yes.

Yep. That's not true. That's not true. Who makes that a law? It's it's. And then what room of people just raise their hand was like, yeah, let's all tell women this causes breast cancer. Yeah, it's crazy. OK, it's fine. I'm a reserve. My judgment in the first chapter of the book is she's in Texas. I read that this morning. And like one of the sentences that stuck out to me the most was that she had to wait what?

Twenty four hours. And I think you wrote as if she hadn't been agonizing over this for weeks. Yeah.

You know, like kids, you get a gun quicker than that that I was in the book. That was a waiting list. That was literally and the irony is that next door you can go buy a gun without any consultation or waiting period.

I love that you said that also. I mean, if you wrote in the book, but that, you know, people don't just walk into an abortion clinic willy nilly like this is a fun thing to do today. You've agonized over this for a long time.

Well, it's you know, some people yes. For some people, it's a hard decision. And for some it's not like it's not it's not really a choice. It's like the only option that they have. Sure. I mean, the twenty four hour waiting period thing is silly. Of course you've thought about it. You didn't just wake up and walk into the clinic.

Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, no, I think that people who have abortions have this this reputation of being irresponsible when it's in fact the exact opposite. It's you know, I wish that we could flip the narrative and say. People who seek abortion care are taking parenting very, very seriously. Right, right. So it's like they are saying, you know, right now it's not a good time right now. Like I can't bring a child into this world and in, you know, help them thrive.

Like, you know, when I saw this a lot, actually during covid, like when covid hit New York in March, like very early on, very hard. I had patients coming to to the health center to receive an abortion, saying to me, you know, like this was actually a desired pregnancy and I lost my job and I'm facing a lot of financial insecurity and just not the time anymore. And that individual was taking her life and her family's life very seriously.

She wasn't being, you know, irresponsible and willy nilly about it to use, you know, your language. She was she was being a mature adult and making a decision that that was right for her and her family. And and that's what we need to get behind. And that's what we need to be supportive of. Absolutely. I think we derailed you a little bit, like in terms of what it looks like. I mean, we you know, again, it's different in every state.

Do you want to share, like, a spectrum of the quote unquote, easiest to the quote unquote, hardest to come back to that?

We'll come back to that. Oh, definitely. Definitely. Yeah. So so, you know, I practice in New York where there are no waiting periods. There's actually never been a waiting period. An individual can, you know, find out that they're pregnant and then, you know, call a health center and get in the same day. And now with telehealth, it's made it that much easier. You can literally have a medication, abortion counseling, like the like the the office visit, start over, you know, your laptop or your phone, your smartphone.

And then the FDA actually requires that health centers dispense the medications, which is also not medically necessary, but that is the federal law. So we do have to follow it to the individual stores to get to the health center to pick them up. We can't, like, send a prescription for the pills to like the local pharmacy. So that is a barrier to care. And, you know, we follow all those rules, but that's still a part of it.

So that that's New York. Now, let's go to Texas and Indiana, which are the states that I've worked in and in Texas. And I highlight a lot of this in the book as well.

But in Texas, an individual has to go to the health center, get an ultrasound, which is mandatory. And we know with a lot of research that if an individual is sure of their last menstrual period and, you know, you can calculate how far in their pregnancy they are. And that's also a very medically sound way to determine how far far along they are. But instead, in many states, a really invasive transvaginal ultrasound is required. You know, I don't know if you have had one.

I've had one.

It's not comfortable which the purpose is to just be like there's a baby in there. Do you really want to do this right?

Am I right? Yes. Well, it's to say yes. It's to say they say it's to confirm how far along the pregnancy is. But really, it's to show the image in many states to show the image to the patient, to turn up the Doppler, meaning the heart sound, the heart tones. You can hear it to describe what's on the screen. Look, it's not hard enough. Like it's just it's it's in us. Is there legally?

You have to do this. You have to play the heart sound. You have to do the ultrasound depends. So it depends on the state. So it depends on the state. Yes. Like their their various requirements around the ultrasound that these things have to be done. Yes. And then the individual has to go home. So in Texas has to go home for 24 hours. In Indiana, they have to go home for eighteen hours. In Missouri, it's 72 hours.

In many states it's different. And there it's all arbitrary. In Missouri with what? There's one clinic, right? Yes, there's one health area.

And so it's all under the guise of like, well, this is supposed to protect women, but really it's actually really harmful because, you know, that's more time off of work.

They have to get to the health center and back. They have to like off to sometimes find a ride. Right, fine. Or you figure out child care. It's really logistically challenging.

And one thing in the book that I never thought of, if you don't have a ride, you can't be sedated. Right. So there's that like if you don't if you're telling nobody, you're you're you're ashamed and nobody nobody will pick you up.

You can't get pain management. Right. You can't. Which is really hard.

And I you know, that's something I see actually in in New York as well. And oftentimes it's because patients don't want to tell anyone because there's so much shame and there's so much stigma. And they do have somebody who would pick them up. Right. Like from like the dentist. But they they lasik. But yeah. Well, it's got nothing. It's not I'm not going to advertise it on social media, you know, it's very, very private, so.

But like not even being able to tell, like a loved one, because you're so ashamed is like, you know, that really hurts me and the fact that, like me, you can't have the abortion experience that they want. That's really hard. Yeah, but, you know, we talked about the scripts and having to say things like abortion causes breast cancer, but also in in Indiana, you know, I have to show an image of a fetus in the various stages of development and say, like, this is the size of the pregnancy that you are aborting, which again, is unnecessary and it's really hurtful and harmful.

And just like exacerbates the shame.

And then in many states, Texas and Indiana included, patients can't use their insurance. Not only can they use their not use their public insurance, but they can't use their private insurance, their commercial insurance. So patients are having to pay out of pocket for the procedure plus or minus sedation or the medication abortion, which is just terrible because abortion is health care and. Right. Yeah, it's usually, what, upwards of 500 dollars if people are curious.

Right. Which is a lot of money for some people. So in some studies show that the average cost of the medication abortion is around five hundred six hundred dollars. And then, you know, if you have a gift, do you have to have a procedure or you're choosing to have a procedure, it can be more expensive.

And then you add the cost of the the sedation and then some abortions can only happen in a health center up to a certain number of weeks. Otherwise, they have to happen in in a hospital. And hospital based care is always more expensive. Right. And you have to pay out to pay out of pocket like a fortune for a lot of people, especially people that are not in a position to have children. You're obviously making financial decisions already. Right.

Well, and before we really get into why women have abortions, again, obviously a multitude of reasons we're going to cover them. Like, I just I want to say I love this part in the book. Just going to quote it. I highlighted a lot where you said we can simultaneously believe that there is potential life growing in a uterus and trust the person carrying the pregnancy to do what is right for them in their own lives, which I'm pro-choice.

We're all pro-choice in this room. You know, it's weird is where does it pro-abortion? It's just pro women doing what they feel is best for their own bodies in their own lives. There are people for various reasons, religious reasons, that believe that it's completely wrong and immoral to terminate a potential life. And I think that is fine for them to believe that. And I like that you wrote that in the book of if that's your belief system, that's your belief system.

If you would never get an abortion because this is what you believe, then you don't get an abortion because it's what you believe. You know, and I want to respect people that hold those beliefs. What I don't respect is other people forcing those beliefs on other people and shaming them and protesting outside the the clinics and everything like that. I mean, that's how I feel. I don't feel the need to argue with people about when life begins. But what I will argue and defend until the day I die are women's rights to make these decisions regarding their own bodies and how wrong it is that politicians, primarily male, get to make these decisions and make these laws regarding women's reproductive health.

Definitely. And and I'm really glad you brought that up the other day. Somebody said to me, like Mara, how do you deal with the people who believe that this ball of cells, you know, is a living being? I said, you know what? I respect that. I respect that. Because you know what? Like, that person has a lived experience that I don't know about. That person, you know, has been maybe going to church or maybe going to the temple, maybe has had all this messaging from family members, from grandparents, maybe that, you know, like I don't know where that's coming from, but it's coming from somewhere.

And I respect and I honor that.

I mean, I think that every individual has their own unique set of beliefs, whether it stems from religion, whether it's from philosophy, whatever it is.

And we just have to recognize that it's the it's the intersection of public policy and personal individual beliefs that really that I have a problem with. Because as a as a physician, as a health care provider, I want to do what's best for my patient. And I trust that they know what they're doing with their lives and that like and I'm here just to facilitate it. I'm not here to ask them, why are you here having an abortion? I don't need to know why.

If they want, you know, to run it by me, if they want to tell me about what they're feeling, if they want to tell me their story, you know what? I'm here for it, but I'm not here to justify anybody's lived experience. I'm here to just honor it. I mean, I have patients who have told me, like, I don't believe in abortion, but I need one. Right. And guess what you do.

And you believe in abortion. And I'm like, you know what, I'm here to take care of you, like I am here to support you. And I mean, it's hard it's really hard again, when, like, the people making these policies are the ones who will never have trouble accessing health care. And yet what they're doing is preventing people who are low income people who are black and brown, people who are of the LGBTQ community from accessing basic needs.

And that that's where I have a problem when when with religion and beliefs interfere with policy.

Absolutely. So let's talk about the patients that you're seeing who comes in to have abortions. What type of people are making these decisions? Is it 15 year old girls? Is it people that are already mothers? Who are you saying? What is this look like? Great question. I also get this question a lot. And so it's an important one because I think that there's a lot of misconception around who's getting abortions. I know that there's a lot of misconception.

And I see patients of every background, demographic of every age, racial, religious, ethnic makeup. I mean, everyone I see is totally different, totally unique. You know, I can't say that there is the typical abortion patient, a young people.

I see people who thought they were going through menopause and maybe they were, but then they ovulated, got pregnant. You know, I did an abortion on, like a 55 year old the other day.

Yeah. I mean, I thought an interesting stat in the book. I don't know the percentage of women that get abortions that have children already. I think people don't think about that. I think they picture a young girl or, you know, some irresponsible 20 something or, you know, and I think that I think even the age was what the most the highest percentage of women are. Twenty five plus. Yeah.

Yeah. So, yeah, that's something that a lot of people don't know, is that the majority of patients receiving abortions are already parents and they already have children. And so kind of goes to my point that people who have abortions are taking parenting very seriously. Right. Yeah. You know what it means. Yeah. And I take it seriously. I had this I would never venture to say I had a pregnancy scare. I've never had an actual pregnancy scare.

But I was dating somebody pretty seriously and my period had just taken a little longer than I usually did. And so it started making me think, you know, well, this is a person I'm committed to. We do have means we care about each other. But, you know, we live in different states. I'm not super in love with him. I don't see myself ending up with this person. I didn't want to have kids with him.

So, like, I'm in I'm five weeks into not getting my period or something. And I'm like, is it irresponsible if I would terminate a pregnancy, you know, can I give somebody the life that I had growing up? So those are the kind of things I think running through my head as a 30 year old considering like, could I get an abortion? What would that look like? And that's that's totally valid. And the thoughts that you were thinking are exactly what many of my patients are thinking and, you know, sharing with me in the exam room.

It's very normal and very common and something that we don't talk about as much as like what about the person who just doesn't ever want kids? You know, we see. There you go. I don't want children, you know, talk or do an episode on it later. Guys, if you're curious, our listeners know this. Yeah. I mean, I have you know, I have a very, very close friend who and she and her husband, you know, they're very we're very close.

And we're the same age in our mid thirties. And her husband got a vasectomy and they're like, we just don't see children in our lives. And, you know, they but they have felt they have had to justify that to people, you know, the great and the the want to be grandparents.

Right. So their parents who were just like wanting to be grandparents and it's just not the quote unquote norm in our society yet. That's not fair. Like if an individual doesn't see having children as part of, like, their lived experience, then that's OK. We need to be supportive of that, too. Right. You know, because you're taking parenting seriously, like I love you. You say it like that. You know, if I'm really serious about not having kids, I'm taking it seriously.

Right. And I was really serious. And I am you know, I had kids that I want them to have the life that I had. And if I can't give that to them or if I think that they're going to be raised in a household with two people that don't love each other, that don't live in the same house. And that's what I want to give somebody, that it's OK to say that to. And I was a 30 year old person of means.

Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, let's talk about the power in sharing stories, normalizing abortion. The shame, the stigma is all the things.

Yeah. So I guess I can talk about my own experience. So I've never been pregnant. I grew up in a very conservative family in South Carolina. My parents are Indian immigrants and we didn't talk about sex. We didn't, you know, talk about any of that stuff. I never saw my parents love each other very much. But, you know, they never kissed one another. It's just, you know, that's just cultural.

And, you know, I became a physician. I, you know, specialize in sexual reproductive health care. And I'm a very loud and proud abortion. But that wasn't always the case. I was shy about it, I didn't talk about it very much because I didn't feel comfortable saying that I was an abortion provider because I was scared of what response I would get, whether it be from, like family, friends or friends who, you know, I wasn't sure where they stood because we weren't even really talking about it.

I knew my friends are progressive, but I didn't really know where they landed on abortion. Right. I also was concerned for safety.

It was interesting to read the book that some women are scared for their lives to be doing these procedures. Yeah, which is interesting because it would be so comforting for me to, like, walk into an office and see a young woman who I feel like I can relate to, that I could talk to. So how important it is to have somebody your age providing something like this? Yeah, yeah. You said you put music on Beyonce, how you treat them like humans, that they are only, I would say, more comfortable.

Yeah. We listen to Rihanna. Yeah. Or Jazz if you want to write whatever you want.

I knew Taylor Swift totally, which was a great album by the way. I've done the best. Um, yeah. And then, you know, I it was actually the experience in Target, which I talk about in my book, where I had an encounter with a complete stranger who told me she had an abortion. And that was after I got the courage to tell her that I was a doctor who provided abortion care. And, you know, I shared my truth.

She shared her truth. And I felt like we had a moment. And I just started to tell people after that that, like, I provide abortion care.

Yeah, period. And that's what I do. And it's the work that I love and I'm really proud of it. And I just started to get, like, so many stories from I mean, I was from just complete strangers at barbecues. I was in jury duty. And this, like older Jewish man told me that he and his wife had an abortion after getting, you know, getting some advice from their rabbi. And I just started to get all these stories.

And so some of those stories that I got, you know, I've shared in the book and then, you know, some of the other stories in the book kind of found me in other ways. And what I also found was that when an individual shared their story with me afterwards, many people would say, wow, like you're the only one I've told or I haven't told many people this and felt really nice to share that. And I said and I just said, gosh, we should just be talking about this so much.

And so I hope that by me sharing what I do opens people up and makes it easier for them to share with one another or keep it personal, because like I said, you don't in the book, you don't have to share your story if you don't want to. That's totally fine. But I hope that we can get to a place where if an individual wants to share their story, that they can.

Yeah, I guess it's just I don't know, it's one of those weird things, it's like, why is it so, like, taboo? That's not really the right word. But like, why are people so scared to share? Is are they worried about how it's going to make them look like it's going to reflect poorly on their character? Like, I'm just trying to think of of why, you know, and clearly there is the fear that you will have somebody in the room that's super anti-abortion and pro-life and then it'll just turn into a really heated debate.

But then I guess the fear is that you'll be judged and looked at differently. I guess, you know, and obviously people hear you're a doctor that provides abortion care and they immediately know, OK, one same team, you know, I know where she stands. And B, this person isn't going to judge me. So I don't know. I mean, it's we talked it's very different. But we talked about this on our sexual assault episode, too, just like the the shame and the stigma around some of these things and why people are scared to share them with others and keep these, quote unquote, secrets or things about them just completely to their selves, to themselves, even if you feel like your friend to be accepting.

And before we started recording, I was saying to Ashley, you know, I have friends that I had lifelong friends had told me years later that they had abortions. And I'm the last person to judge that. I think you should do exactly what you want with your body in your life. But I was I'm surprised when somebody that I've known in close with for years will tell me that they've done that because I'm the last person to judge it. But it is it's not talked about that much.

And it's interesting to me because it's not this horrible, shameful thing. And again, I agree. If you don't want to share it, don't share it. It's a very personal thing. But, um, yeah.

Was there sex since the episode? They all just like talked about their abortions. They all just they hadn't talked about it since they've been friends. And then Gary went and found that guy, the waiter. The waiter you remember. How does she know. She just said she goes hi and he doesn't recognize her but they all just had this moment of like, wait, I've had an abortion. I mean, it's I don't know.

Also everybody's different and what they choose to share with the world. And I think we all know the word can travel fast, and especially when you're younger, people tend to be more gossipy. And so I'm sure some people just don't share these personal things about themselves because they don't want the world to know.

I don't know. I've been thinking about this a lot. I've been reflecting a lot. If I had an abortion, who would I tell what I tell? I be like my mom and my mom and Raina. Or would it be more of like this is the thing I'm talking about in mixed company because I want to normalize it more? I think maybe you're the expert. You tell me. But if I were to hypothesize, maybe people have this like deep seated desire to, like, explain away why they did it and have you understand why they did it and not feel like there are, quote unquote, bad person for doing it.

And some people don't want to have those conversations, even though all of your reasons are probably no one really thought about for a long time. Very difficult, very rational. But maybe you just feel this like need to really explain yourself. And those are really tough. I think you hit the nail on the head. I think that's exactly what it is, Rena. And I think that, like the you know, it's like, well, I had an abortion, but let me give you the like, eight reasons why it's OK, you know, and that's not fair.

You should just be able to say I had an abortion period. Why why do we need to to break it down for the person that we're sharing it with? Right. Right. But you're right. That is, I think, the immediate gut reaction.

Like, I just need to justify this immediately when people tell me they're pregnant. I mean, there's Meems about it of like how it changes over the years. Like when your friend tells you she's pregnant, when you're in college, it's like, oh, what what are we doing about this? But then in your 30s, you're supposed to be like early 20s, 30s. You're excited. I still feel like I'm a little flat lined on people still pregnant because.

Right. Why? It's like. Did you. Is this what you want then? Congratulations. She's like, they need to justify it. To me. It's just kind of like you're right. Like is sometimes you just don't know how to react. You need to kind of pick up the tone from the person telling you. So I had a friend the other day to send me an ultrasound and I was like. Are we excited or so? I would love that you just said that actually, because, you know, in training, my mentor always taught us when delivering the results of a pregnancy test, you wait for their reaction because it's so common for people to immediately say, oh, congratulations.

And that's just that's not always that's not always what the person to you know, what they want. So wait for wait for their body language. Wait for them to respond. Right.

So as a physician and as a friend to so many, I have been on the receiving end of so many pictures of ultrasounds of, you know, positive pregnancy tests. And I my my text back is always. So how do you feel about this? Right. Like, how do you feel? I don't know. I don't know how you feel. I'm going to assume I know how you feel. Right.

Like, yeah. And and so I mean. Yeah, so so thank you for I just think of I think of Knocked Up the movie or. Oh yeah. She just like cries.

I wondered if this is kind of heavy but I know I have a friend that had an abortion that has no children but wants children with her partner whom she had an abortion with. And I know that's such a tough decision because they want children at some point, but it's not the right time. And I know how hard it was just from talking to her about it. And I sympathize with any one who was having to face a decision like that, because it's not that you just don't want children, you want children, and you are terminating a pregnancy with even the partner that you want to have children with.

And I assume that's probably why people may not share that information because of the judgment they think they may receive. And then they have the fear that, like, what if I struggled to get pregnant again, like with this partner and I terminate a pregnancy?

I'm saying this with with clearly no judgment and again, the utmost sympathy and respect for any decision a woman decides to make regarding her own body and also, of course, not being able to relate myself totally. I've heard that scenario a lot, too, in my professional and personal life. She don't really have a medical response for that. But I think as a human being and as a friend and a loved one to so many, I think that that is a really hard thing for many folks to wrap their heads around, because they're like, I am, you know, getting older and like I do want to be pregnant and I do want to parent.

But, you know, my biological clock is ticking.

And so kind of one of my other campaigns is to normalize egg freezing in Maryland.

And she came on. That's why we had her on. Yeah, she talked about it. So I've frozen my eggs, too. And I tell everyone that I'm like, you know, because I want to be a parent one day, you know? But right now, it's just not the time. Yeah, I know. Just to flex. I like when I had like I had a consultation about freezing my eggs and they were like, you are so fertile.

I don't want to fall at that place closed.

They did just that, OK, but they were really hyping up like my reproductive abilities. I had like nineteen follicles or something. I had a lot like, wow, you're very fertile, your parents. I think another thing, by the way, that you were talking about, like friends with kids. I had this discussion. My mom was my mom had a lot of difficulty getting prior to my mom had multiple miscarriages. They went her my father went through all kinds of hormones and shots.

And my mom wanted a baby so badly, like I was such a miracle to her.

And I, I remember talking to her once and saying, like, how would you feel if I ever needed an abortion? And, you know, I think that can sometimes be a barrier to discussing things with other people as well and feeling like the people around you wanted kids so badly and you don't want that. And my mom's response was, you know, I I want you to do what's good for you and your body. I was married to your father.

I was in a place financially. I have kids, you know, whatever. So but I do think that there is some shame around that, especially at a certain age when all of your friends want kids or they've struggled to have kids and you don't want to be looked at as it's so cavalier that you just like waltzed in and got an abortion, you know? Yeah, I think that happens a lot. Why? We're spending like half the episode, just speculating why here.

But I mean, I just want to also just validate why people would be. Yeah. Ashamed. I don't want any. I think it's an important discussion.

Yeah. I think it's really important. Yeah.

So we we obviously sympathize with anybody that's feeling. That's struggling with sharing their truth. Yeah, if that's what they want to do. I mean, it's the same as like and I hear and I hear this, too. It's like, you know, the friend who's having a hard time getting pregnant and then like the other friend who gets pregnant after, you know, like a month of trying. Right.

Like, it's it's. Yeah. Fertility issues are really episode. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Maybe you have some good advice then. Like if you're not comfortable talking to a friend, if you feel a lot of shame, are there like good online forums that you would like love to recommend.

I'm like, oh that's such an entry hotline. Yes. No thank you so much for asking.

Thank you for validating me. I really appreciate it. I know it's a really question question.

So there's an organization called All Options and they provide counseling around any fertility pregnancy, reproductive health issue.

So whether you want to continue a pregnancy, whether you're you know, you're struggling, getting pregnant, whether you want to have an abortion, whether you're struggling with the decision or on having an abortion, they're really awesome.

There's also another organization called Exhale and they provide a lot of counseling around abortion. So those those are the two that I would that I would, you know, put in a plug for. Great. I imagine you're like 16 years old. I don't realize 16 year old listeners, but like, I don't know who I would to talk to you about it at that age. My other dumb sixteen year old friends, I don't know that is, I will say, the most common place for for young people to access information around sexual reproductive health care is their friends as well as the Internet.

So, you know, I mean, I work for Planned Parenthood, so I will put in a plug for Planned Parenthood that we have a lot of great resources on our website. Bedsitter Dawg is another organization that produces a lot of really good content around sexual and reproductive health care that's really accessible to young people. Their graphics are awesome and they have really cool videos that a lot of like good information in regards to anything related to sex. Will MLSE fall on Instagram stories for you guys?

This is probably a dumb question that I should know. But if you are sixteen or you're fifteen or you're under you're a minor, that's the word. And you come in and need an abortion. How does that look? Excellent question.

That again, depends on where you live.

So if you are in New York and you want to access anything related to sexual and reproductive health, whether it be accessing contraception, whether it be getting an abortion or getting prep or prep for HIV prevention, getting emergency contraception, the list goes on. You don't have to get consent from a parent or guardian. You can come in. If you can get there and and receive that care, you can consent to it.

Planned Parenthood or at any if you're receiving care from anyone in New York State.

Yeah, right now, in many states, there are rules around how and if minors are able to access abortion care. So in many states, if you are pregnant and deciding to continue the pregnancy, you are considered an emancipated minor.

Now, if you are wanting an abortion, you have to have parental consent or you have to seek what they call judicial bypass, meaning you have to go to court on your own and have a judge grant you the right to access abortion care.

I write about this in my in my book. The chapter is called Vidalia, and it's about an individual who seeks judicial bypass because she did not and could not tell her mother that she needed an abortion. And she was in West Virginia and needed care. And so she went around that law and had a judge say it was OK for her to get an abortion.

This is also a very stupid question. If you have like a West Virginia driver's license, can you go to Pennsylvania and get can you go to another state with another state? Yes, OK, yep.

And so this is one of the reasons why people travel to get abortion care because of state restrictions.

They'll go to like other states, like a neighboring state if it's more liberal and more progressive. Yeah, great question.

Well, I love Planned Parenthood and it was special for me growing up because I was sexually active at like sixteen, seventeen. I didn't grow up in a non sex positive household, but I don't know, that would have asked my mom to take me to get birth control. So like Planned Parenthood was a safe, clean, healthy place. I could do that judgment free when I was in high school. So it meant a lot to me to be able to do that.

Yeah, I went to Planned Parenthood, but my first year I moved to New York, I needed a gyno appointment and I was like, I'm just going to roll up to her. And then I met Dr. Sean, but now he doesn't do it anymore anyway. OK, we want to talk a lot about some of the political stuff, some racial issues, barriers to access. All this all these kind of things, most of us are pretty familiar with politics enough to understand that abortion has become such a partisan issue and not become it always has been, and kind of how crazy that is honestly, and how hypocritical it is.

Like we said, you know, the people that are, quote unquote, anti-abortion, pro-life, would probably get an abortion if they needed to, just speculating there. But it will always be accessible to them. And there's just there's a lot of hypocrisy, obviously.

And of course, just in general, creating more barriers to access birth control, but also being anti-abortion like this just doesn't align there.

But, yeah, we want to talk about some of the stuff that, you know, the core of it all.

It's a health care issue. It has been made political by. Politicians, mostly white men, white cis men, to get votes, it's been exploited and it's so unfortunate and I think politicians are really good at using social justice issues at their disposal. Right. And I think I said earlier, so it's you know, gay marriage was one that was used. And a lot of people are single issue voters and say, OK, well, he's anti-gay marriage, I'm going to vote for him.

Right. But now, you know, when gay marriage became legal and I think 2015, it's we don't hear about it as much. Right.

Um, so honestly, that would be my wish is that there would be so Roe v. Wade, just to clarify, actually, it made it so that abortion was not a crime in all 50 states.

If it were to be overturned, many states have what we call trigger laws in place to make it illegal in those individual places.

So what would be really great is to there's a bill called the Women's Health Protection Act that was introduced in the Senate in twenty nineteen that would provide federal protections around abortion and to codify it as a health care issue. So that's a piece of legislation that we can all get behind. There is also the Hyde Amendment, which is terrible, and it's an amendment that gets voted on every year and it has been since it was implemented a few years after Roe v.

Wade that prevents public funds from being used to towards abortion.

And so if we got rid of that in the Women Act, which is another piece of legislation that we can also get behind the Women Act, the little component of the Hyde Amendment, so many states, though Medicaid is funded, is partially state funded, partially federally federally funded.

So 17 states have said, well, mine are state dollars are being are contributing to this. So therefore, we're going to allow. So like New York, for example, says, well, state funds are contributing to Medicaid. And so we're going to allow Medicaid to be used to pay for abortion. So that's amazing. Mm hmm. And 17 of the 50 states allow this. So the rest don't, which is the vast majority, which are the people.

I don't want my tax dollars going to abortion. Exactly. Your tax dollars go to a lot of stuff that you don't even know about. Douglas Ah, come on. Totally. But but politicians and the media are making this issue right. Worse yet and saying, you know, like and a lot of people, like I said, are single issue voters.

And it's become this way in the recent past and not like it used to not be this way from like some of my older colleagues say, like it just wasn't really like this.

But I think it's common. It's very, very common. I think people especially that are not super well informed about politics because it can be really scary to talk about and intimidating. I would encourage people to not be single issue voters and just sort of look at the whole picture, because I think oftentimes, you know, maybe a candidate that's running on that one policy, everything else they stand for is actually at your detriment, especially as a woman, for your other rights, for how much you make for the other rights that you have in the state.

I just think oftentimes in some people who are in power today, you know, they run on these one issue and you vote for them, but all of their other policies really affect you negatively. So I think that politics can be really intimidating. You don't know where to look, but just try on the drive also. Just realize that that's not real. They don't care. They don't care about these fetuses.

They don't they're the ones that don't care that there were and still are kids in cages at the border, like are not the ones that are really caring about our nation's youth when they are out of the womb. So it's like just try to see through the bullshit honestly.

Like nothing else they stand for actually aligns with caring so much about, you know, a heartbeat in the womb.

And, you know, like where do they stand on education after you have the kid? That's like all they care about, quote unquote, is, you know, the fetus. I mean, well, I could go on about this. And they're also the same ones will be able to access an abortion if I like.

They needed one diagram of the anti-abortion politicians who have funded abortions. I would love to see it would love the receipts on that. Yeah. And also not a heartache, but people are going to get abortions regardless, regardless of whether you make them a criminal act or outlaw them. People will get them and they will be less safe than if they would have had access. And that's just like I think that's one of the main arguments of how futile these efforts are.

And like we should just obviously focus on a million other things that would improve the country honestly. And like our whole our whole system, even the health care system, there's so many other things within the health care system that need improving on. But I do want to talk just about how barriers to access and political intervention really affect black and brown people and low income people, people in rural areas, LGBTQ, I.A., folks. So can you just provide us a little of your information, expertise on this?

So people a lot of people just aren't aren't aware and a lot of people live in a bubble of like, I can get an abortion if I want. And it's like, yeah, it's not so easy for everyone else.

Yeah, it's not. And I think so we can start with the LGBTQ community. It's one that I work with a lot at Planned Parenthood. I also provide hormone therapy for my trans and gender non binary patients for there to facilitate their gender transition. And, you know, the community has not only do they face.

Is a lot of stigma and shame and violence in their daily lives, but many of them face those same disparities in the exam room or when they're seeing a doctor, if they see a doctor at all.

Right.

Many, many of my trans patients, you know, don't feel safe going to the doctor. They feel like they have to teach their doctor how to take care of them. They have to teach their doctor about their body.

I used to work at Coulon Lord, which is an amazing organization, health care organization in downtown Manhattan. And I had a lot of patients who had specifically moved to the city just to receive care because there was no one in like South Carolina or few, you know, just like one or two providers in South Carolina who really felt comfortable caring for the needs of the community. And I think so. You know, I've had patients who identify as trans and who have a uterus and are using testosterone for masculinization and who stop getting their periods because testosterone will do that.

But that doesn't mean that they're not ovulating and could get pregnant if they have sex in a procreative way.

But they don't oftentimes get that education or know that that is even a possibility. Many people assume that they never want to have children. And that's also not true, that, you know, many trans people want to parent and we need to be supportive of that. You know, in terms of black and brown people, they faced disparities in health care for, you know, for so long. And that honestly could be an episode in itself.

And, you know, I and Brown myself, but I you know, my black colleagues and my black patients can say and will say that there's a lot of racism in health care and a lot of that, you know, people say, oh, I'm not racist, but there's what we're not we're not talking about the overt racism right now much anymore.

Choosing to see a black patient exactly. Are in the room. Right. It's more about the implicit bias that goes on. And one of the things that, you know, in my position and as an educator and as an activist and an advocate is to is to what I'm working towards is training more doctors of color to provide abortion care, more advanced practice clinicians. So and NP's and midwives who are of color to provide abortion care and to lift the voices of those health care providers who are of color to become activists.

Because there's a lot of research that shows that people of color do prefer their health care provider to be of color and that there's less bias that goes on when minorities are treated by minorities. And so we need to acknowledge that and recognize that, induce and act on that. So that's something that I that I am working on. And then people who are of low income are going to turn to Medicaid in order to get health care services. And the vast majority of people seeking abortion care are of color and with Medicaid, and they can't use their health insurance to get health care.

And, you know, there's a story that I in my book about a woman named as Arae who is living in Indiana and can't access abortion care, and she is of color. And she talks about her lived experience and being a black woman and just not being able to get basic health care. And so and it goes into the details of that. And I mean it.

You know, I talk about when there was when we were in the midst of like a resurgence of the racial justice movement, which has been incredibly powerful and really amazing to witness here in New York. And the rallies and the protests are still going on.

And I remember that a few weeks ago, I was rounding in my health centers and I was talking to my staff and a lot of my staff or people of color and a lot of them wanted to, you know, they were just itching to go out and protest, as was I.

And, you know, what I told them was, look, there's a large parallel in the racial justice movement and reproductive justice movement that if an individual is not able to feel safe in their daily lives, feel that they are free from violence and shame and stigma in their daily lives and exercise bodily autonomy, then how are we ever going to feel that we can ever achieve reproductive justice?

An individual who we're saying has the right to a black woman who we're saying has the right to conceive and give birth to a child, should be able to raise a child and not worry about that child getting shot.

Right. Not worry about that child being, you know, arrested because. They are black and so they're they're intricate links into like the work that we do in a day to day and like, you know, the larger racial justice movement and so on.

And I could talk, you know, I'm glad we talked back into that. Yeah, we could we could go on for hours on just the racial socio economic sides of abortion. But we'll save that for another time. And I think that's a good place to wrap up if you feel comfortable with that. Yeah. Any final thoughts in terms of your patients or what you do or women who are thinking about this?

Yeah, I mean, I think there's so much to cover.

And I and even, you know, after after I wrote the book, I was like, gosh, I should have touched on this or you should have touched on that. I mean, did try to get into the nuances, into the weeds as much as possible, because I think that the quote that I have in the very beginning of the book, you know, it's from Audre Lorde and it says that there is no such thing as a single issue struggle because we do not live single issue lives that we need to really move away from this idea that abortion happens in a silo.

And like that, there's a human being that is attached to that experience, who you know, who comes at the abortion with all these intersections that we may or may not know, but we have to acknowledge they do probably exist. And, you know, I hope that everyone reads this book and and I hope that it opens up important conversations and that it portrays abortion as the human right that it is and that the critical health care issue that it is.

Yeah, we're going to have to tell everybody where they can find that. And I just want to thank you for being so open and honest about all these things. And I love that we just promoted that there should be no no shame in this and it should be done in a safe and healthy way. And there's lots of options and resources, but no shame or stigma should ever be attached to this, whatever you're going through.

Yeah. Well, thank you again and again. The book is not out yet. It's September 1st. But can you preorder it? You can definitely preorder it wherever books are sold. I want to put in a plug for independent booksellers, preferably black or brown owned. It is also available at every, you know, major book outlet. And yeah, I have a website with all the various places you can get it.

Oh God. I was just going to say, yeah, it's you're the only one I've told Dotcom.

OK, great, great. Well, check out that website.

You guys preorder the book. And while we're talking about websites, check out our Guillam new website, A Girl's Got to Eat podcast Dotcom. And We're Girls Got to podcast and Instagram. I'm on Instagram. Ranna is Raina Greenberg. Girls underscore got to eat on Twitter and YouTube. Dotcom slash girl's got to eat. And thanks for listening, guys. Yeah. Have a good week. I thank.