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This question that you guys know and everybody who lives in the big city now is like, why is it there are so many fabulous women who can't find a decent guy? Hi, guys, welcome back to another episode of Girls Got to you. Welcome back. We are given a weather update in a while. I was thinking that. Do you want to do it?


It's you're thinking that I'm not going to do it anyway thanks to our party.


So, no, I think it's like thirty seven and sunny, not windy. You know, I fucking hate wind.


Like in the winter is the word. I hate a wind chill.


It's sunny at least I love a sunny winter day.


It's New York. I hate real talking about the weather and everything. Like it's cold. I'm like, have you lived here. I love talking about the weather.


People like I love small talk about the weather. Do you? Because it's like it's connects us all. Like I talked to the doorman about it all the time. What else do I have to talk? I'll talk to your doorman about anything. I stopped in today. I was like, how's your ears would you do anyway? All right, let's think our partners, we can get into it. Ernest is offering our listeners a one hundred dollars cash bonus.


Refinance your student loan debt at Ernest Dotcom Aggy. Terms and conditions apply. And the MLS number one, twenty, forty nine seventeen. And things to help refresh America's number one market for a supporting girl's got to eat. Go to hell. A fresh dotcom 10 JGI and use the code Tanguy for ten free meals, including free shipping. Yes, and thanks to calm, first of all, pretty girl's got to eat. Are you struggling to sleep?


You're not alone. If you're not sleeping enough, it can affect your learning and problem solving and decision making during the day. Calm is often a special limited time promotion of forty percent off a calm premium subscription at com dot com stagey and thanks to Buffy for supporting girl's got to eat for twenty dollars off your Buffy comforter, visit Buffy DIKO and Unter promo code jgi.


OK, what was happening. First you want tell your story. You have a Christmas story. You have a Christmas. A Christmas story. A story I want to tell you. But let's go in chronological order. I wanna tell you about my week, but I wanna hear about the Christmas Day, OK? This is just a funny thing that I've been meaning to tell you. So we all know that I'm only that I'm not dating guys in their twenties anymore.


Mm hmm. This was probably one of the last interactions I had with a guy that was in his twenties.


I figured that's why I went on a date with one after this.


But this was just like a funny dating app exchange that happened on Christmas Day. You know, the holidays are always lit on the app. You think that nobody's going to be on there, but everyone's just at home ignoring our families on the dating apps. Yes. So this guy liked me unhinge and he was like twenty seven. And he did look really young. Not like too young, not like creepy young, but he did look young. But he also looked a little like Nick Robinson, who is the actor from a teacher.


I was like, that is exactly what I thought you were going to do. It was fresh in my mind and I was like, I'll do it. And I did not do it. So I was like, whatever. I was kind of bored, too. So I was talking to this guy and I soon realized he was asking me some kind of interesting questions like, so what brings you on the apps? I'm like, I don't know. Like they were invented.


Like, what do you mean? I've been on here for a while. And what is he you think he was like, you know, you wanted to say like I broke up with somebody. We have so come to find out after chatting a little bit that he just got on the apps for like the first time at twenty seven. And he's like, so what are they like, have you gone out with anybody? And I started to be like, Oh my gosh, this actually is like a kid.


And like I'm not signing up to be a teacher or somebody that's you would rather play a little guy getting into online dating for the first time. Like I he literally was like, have you got any dates? And I was like, I've gone on a couple. And he said, Oh, nice, how have they gone? The guys weren't freaks, right. Haha, like my biggest fear is being catfish and I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, this is just gay.


And so I was just like they've gone. Well I have yet to be catfish and then I just, I was like, I'm not going to talk to this guy anymore. He's his age just started to be like very feel very extreme. He was very earnest, it was super earnest.


And I feel like he was just like knows I'm was a lot older. I was like pumping me for information. It started to feel like a dynamic. I didn't want to be a part of you. You want to role play the teacher stuff I did and teach you arithmetic. I know. Even though he kind of looked like that. Like Eric. You know. Eric. Eric. Eric. Eric.


So I wrote like I've never been cavefish and the hero, like, oh, good to hear a success story. And then I got into this. This threw me off. Huh. Honestly, everyone has been very chill that I'm not worried about it. I feel like maybe the guys are a little more crazy, though. Like I have a bunch of friends who have been offered a menage a trois.


I only here. OK, here's my theory. He's twelve. I don't know how he used that phrase since I heard it in the song. And I was twelve and I told everyone who would listen that he's not twelve. He's a boomer. Like, I feel like I got catfish by a boomer. OK, since who said menage a trois since three became a normal. You know what I mean. Like when you were twelve, you heard that song like Khushi and then you just like looked at what a man your mom told you and then you told everybody you knew what it meant.


And I was twelve. But also I feel like we just the word is threesome. Like the word is threesome, you know what I'm saying? Like, that's why you don't say menage a trois. Four, it's not English. For one, it's French. And we're English people, English speaking people. And the word is three. So listen, if about five sentences into an interaction with a person in threesomes have come up, we've taken the wrong turn.


What menage a trois? What millennial? Younger millennial, I think. Twenty seven. Still Millennial. What Millennial has ever said. Menage a trois. Are you kidding? No, you know, I know because you so earnest and like sweet. There's no way that I was kidding I and then. All right. Would then it was just so funny because I was like I mean catfish. But you're right. A twelve year old or a fifty seven year old.


You're right. So it doesn't matter. Then I just looked back. He did on match me. So like I feel like he was like my Ru's is going too far.


I said menage a trois, I showed it to a friend and the friend was like, people don't say that. I just got back here. People don't say that anymore. I'm sure she's going to find out, if you like, on dating apps, not that I'm ever on them. I feel like I'm like pretty open to like different people have different turns of phrases that I come up with, even like spelling errors, menage a trois for those guys.


And I'm out like, yes, I'm so glad you feel me on how absurd it was. Like, it shook me up a minute. I was like, what? That person is never going to tell you to choke on their dick. Like, that person is just too nice to talk, dirty talk. He's not going to, like, eat you out the way you want. No, but anyway, so I got catfish. That's why no dating guys in their 20s anymore.


I'm still sticking to it one weekend. Well, that guy's either 12 or 52. You're right. He's not in his twenties. And allegedly I have a date coming up. We'll see with a thirty nine year old.


Very high salt pepper, Harry, starting now is high. He looks like Anthony Bourdain. Also, I matched with him. He just kept doing. I told you the other day that I might imagine and you were like, we need to sync up our matches. We do need to think of our magic because our ages are aligned.


Now, I know I know that one time I was like, did you out of the neck?


Well, I'm glad you brought him home with you. I think you did. No, I don't know. I only know it is a different question.


I'm going we're going to talk about why. OK, it's new year. I'm back on my bullshit. I had like on my bullshit 24 hours. I worked out, I, I started a skincare routine.


Oh oh oh oh me out. Hear me out about my skincare routine. I did one phase myself.


I've, I've put some collagen lotion on my face is that is huge.


That skin care team has this vibrator. I can't do the rori but you look at me you were like that's really bad for your skin or you said it's so serious. And I was like, the whole picture, get out of your butt. Then I was like, maybe I should do something. But I was like, put some sunscreen on. Yeah. You were like, do something nice for your skin. Yeah. So I did. I put some collagen under my eyes.


Right. Tighten that shit up. I'm going to go home, I'm going to cook my lentil detox soup and I'm very excited to cook still because you and your mom sent me one of the sweetest, most you guys are like a whole household of thoughtful gifts. So you actually put it on our Instagram. We should put on cream. You sent me a really beautiful custom. Girl's got to eat painting and then you and your mom got me a I did Google what this was called.


I thought there'd be like a nice name for it. It's just a soup spoon rest. Yes. And the custom artwork I got you was from Jeremy Brown. He is someone I know. He's based out of Atlanta. Check him out on Instagram artist Jeremy Brown. His stuff is incredible. And my mom and I were just talking about your suit making and what you could use. You don't already have. And my mom came up with that because the spoon rest is like such a thing that, like, I don't have one, but I always grew up, you know, my mom had one on the stove.


Yeah. Moms have them and I never had them. I've been thinking for a long time I need it. And you got me a custom one that says Vibe's only I know, which is so special spoonerisms like I got founded on. We found on Etsy. It's like Standon says Vibe's only. It's really special. So thank you very much. I love you. Don't get. The other thing is I didn't know my dad, my tarm. I'm so mad.


You don't know what the other thing is because it goes with that and it's like, you better get it. I'm pissed. I will.


I, you know, that they just like, gave me whatever packages they felt like finding today I'll get. But it says delivered to customer. That makes me think someone still in your building but your best friends are there when you're ready and you start asking around. I am best friends in my whole building. I sent out the alert last night.


I'm like, I'm around to see, you know, I'm back on my bullshit and I'm going to I'm going to get on the ass because so many people watch my Instagram story. Eyestrain told me that I was glowing like so many. And I was like, it's all the calm in my system. I think that you can just it's not just guys orgasms. I've been having a lot of orgasms lately. Well, also the come, but just to clarify, because, like, I people are like, you know, you spent this whole week, this guy last week, you're getting on that day.


That's not somebody is going to like a long term partner to me. It's somebody who I like. I we just we want very different things in life. I think it just is very mature, like we care about each other. We're not going to have a future together. So, like, even if you heard this, I don't think he would be like, I can't believe what you say, you know? Yeah, I'm glad. I'm sure people are like, what happened?


Yeah. This is this guy. We've talked about him a lot.


He has a red aura, if you remember, I'm not a fan, but yeah, you guys reconnected and yeah, it's it's nice.


I mean, those situations are rare. I have been I was in a situation like that with somebody until I discovered all his stuffed animals like I where you're like I like this guy, I'm attracted to him. The sex is great, but we're just not going to be long term. But like, this is fun while it lasts. It's it's so rare to feel like that. And it feels nice to feel like that because everybody keeps me like you.


How many people said to me, are you guys in love? And I'm like, it was just a nice time with somebody that I like. And the sex is good, but it's like this mature thing. We were like, oh, we don't want the same stuff. And it's like, I don't think about it. It doesn't like weigh on me really badly. And also you don't like me, you don't see him as a long term actor, but he's never done anything like so terrible to me.


He was on the horizon. He was on notice to us that it was and he was going to come for me.


OK, so so I'm getting back. I'm going to get on the apps. Let me stop you right there. I want to thank our guests today. Might make us feel differently. We have a guest we are so excited about. He's an author of a book we just read called Data Nomics. His new book coming out. His name is John Berger. So guys get ready for him.


But he told us that he is a kind of negative outlook on the apps and he just said that in our email correspondence with him. So I am very intrigued to hear what he has to say. So I'm curious if, like all about change our minds, I mean, you know, but neither of us are, like, super excited about the apps. It's just like you do them because it's like all we really have right now. Yeah. I mean I mean, I talked for years about how, like, I would never.


Use an app, I like to meet people in person that's not the world we live in right now. I'm not going to bars, I'm not meeting people, I'm walking up to strangers. I'd like to have some love in my life. I really did enjoy being with somebody last week. Like, we spent like eight nights together. We were together for, like, such an intense period of time. And I realized, like, it's so nice to have somebody will that has to have sex with me and give me attention all the time.


But it's just it's nice to have somebody around and I enjoy it. And I would like to have that with somebody who I have a long term future with. And so, like, you got to do it on dating apps if you're going to do it. Well, I want to I'm curious to see what he says. I cannot wait because, you know, you know, my stance. It's still holds that I've never gotten a second date from an app.


And I have been dating a lot. I've been going on a lot of first dates. And but I will say it's like someone could be like, well, what about that one guy you want on a second date with him? The guy that I said I just want to be friends with? Nope. He slid to my dorm, so I still have yet to go on that second date from an app. It is not my preferred way to meet people, but I have been hitting them harder than ever and actually going out with guys safely outside.


But I'm curious to see what he says for like the world we live in now. I just can't wait. I'm like, so juiced up to talk to him. Or don't you have to report shortly? It's the most excited I've been for an interview.


You tell me about this blog. Actually, no, no, no. Actually called me and told me about this. But you know where I heard it, where Shan Shan budy her. She said I was reading data nomics just really quickly on our show, on our show, because we were talking about moving to a place that will be better for you to date. And she said it really quickly. And I picked up on it because I was like, oh, data nomics.


I just love that name, you know, like the numbers game of dating. And so I picked this book up and I was shocked by it. And matchmaker Maria, who we've had on our show, is quoted in it. And so some of the stuff she even said on our episode with her a couple of years ago is in the book. And so she actually introduced us to him and he just seemed like an angel.


He his correspondence has been my favorite correspondence with anybody. He's the kindest, most wonderful. You guys are going to beat him in a minute. But also, you told me about this book. It's been really eye opening. I'm excited for him to just, like, talk me out of online dating. Oh, no. I'm always waiting to be talked out of it. I hate it.


It's true.


OK, but actually, before we get into it, I want to say somebody did reach out to us. We've been getting a lot of these lately. And she said that she comes from a very conservative household, very sexually conservative, and that we inspired her to buy Shands book and she was excited to, like, explore her sex side of herself. And we've been getting a lot of messages like that recently. And it makes me really happy to hear that you guys are sort of breaking free from what you think is shameful or not acceptable and that our guest can help you explore that side of your life.


And that that really warms my heart. It makes me so happy. I love it, too. Yeah. I just I don't have one to say it off hand, but I feel like we've been getting a lot of those emails lately.


Like, I think people ended the year and started the year with a lot of like thank you for what you've done for me. Kind of emails to us was really nice. So thank you guys. We love you. Yeah. The moment that we've been waiting for.


Oh my God. OK, we tease it last week really briefly, but we are going to talk about Bridgton, which is on Netflix. Spoilers ahead for sure, if you haven't watched it. Yeah, just give out a few minutes on. OK, so I'm glad you made me watch it. I'm glad you made me stick through it, because my feeling was I did not like the first five episodes while the last three episodes I loved. Oh, I mean, I would never watch a show I didn't even like the first ten minutes.


But you loved it. So I and we probably. You don't like it. I just didn't like the plot. But the last three episodes I loved I loved the cast. You know, also I don't love like British aristocracy films. It's not something that I gravitate towards. Yeah. I feel the same.


Like I didn't watch. I never can remember the name of this. Oh, no, everybody loved it, landing Depp or Downton Abbey, Downton Abbey, Downton Downton Abbey.


How did we get there? I never watched that. Like, yeah, I just I don't know. I like to look at it. If I just saw, like, a photo of the show, I'd be like, that's not my kind of show. But I was so, so into it. I, like, loved the plot. Like from moment one. You want to tell people what the plot is. Do you think people have seen it?


Well, we mentioned it last week. It's really like it's like Gossip Girl. There's this mysterious ghost writer that writes a gossip column about what's going on in this town. It takes place in London in the early eighteen. Hundreds of things like 18, 15, and there's a queen and a king. And it's heavily based on this interracial community. The queen is black. She's married to a white king. And so there's no hierarchy based on your race.


The lead actor is a black man who is so hot. Oh, my God. The lead actress is a white woman. And I've seen some mixed reviews on how the show tackled race. But I mean, you know, at the end of the day, it is still like a unique thing to see such diversity in a period piece that took place at that time. I thought it was really, really unique and interesting. OK, the queen looked like Maya Rudolph and I could not unsee it.


I thought it was Maya Rudolph. I couldn't believe it wasn't Maya Rudolph. I thought the Heatherington woman was Elizabeth Banks. You did. I can see that. I had to look that up. OK, and then also, do you know who the main character, the female lead, you know what she was. And also, she's in younger and she's the Irish girl. Yeah. Oh my God. Nine by Josh. No. Yes, that's her.


Yes, it is her. Because I was like, who is this. Oh my God. I did think she had a familiar face, but just like a familiar face from like for like a Hollywood actress. Oh my God. Yes. Wow. Yeah. So also one of our favorite shows. That's crazy. OK, what was your favorite scene? My favorite scene. So we were talking like one of the sex scenes going to happen. Are there enough sex scenes?


This one sex scene made up for the lack of sex scenes in the first couple episodes. They do a montage of her and the main characters, the two main characters fucking like all over the place to Taylor Swift's wildest dreams set to violin's girl. I know, because I will tell you the first time I realized they were using current music with the violins was thank you next. So it was the one of the first balls like first or second episode.


And I was like, What is this tune? And then I realized it was Thank you next. I just started singing it like I'm gonna start singing it to realize what it was. And then it was. It was. Thank you. Next. And the next song was like, I don't know if it was a Harry Styles. It was some some like current song and then Girl Like You, the Maroon five summer and Maroon five and then yes that like the wildest dreams was insane.


Incredible. That was such. You're right. That was such a good day. It's one of my favorite scenes I've ever seen in a TV show ever. It was worth getting through the first five episodes. I mean, I'm just I'm obsessed with current music with like an orchestra. It was incredible. Never seen it before. OK, my favorite scene was when she macerated. Did you were you, like, shook by, like, how out of place, but amazing that was like because you're like thinking like girls didn't know how to do that back then when he was telling her, like, how to masturbate.


That was one of the hardest things I've ever seen. I almost Mazzarino know I did. I took a break, but then on this couch. OK, so here's to play off of that. Here is one of the things I just thought was so crazy. And again, I don't know. I don't I don't study those time periods. I know it was like totally a different time, but I think it's so interesting the difference between, like, the free women that can do whatever they want and I guess some people would think of them is like pariahs of society or whatever.


And then like the debutants, I mean, just looking at it from from the outside, like, I would rather be the opera singer that gets to fuck whoever she wants than the girl who's engaged and doesn't know where babies come from. Like it is so nuts, like the stark contrast between these women that get to do whatever they want, fuck whoever they want, and live these lives where I guess they are like making their own money and they're like doing something they're passionate about as opposed to these women in the high society that literally don't know what sex is.


It's so fascinating. I'm with you. I I've studied that time period, but it's feels accurate, right? Because she didn't know how babies were made. Like he kept pulling out. She didn't know like why she'd even know what sex was for even I mean, before the day of her wedding, didn't know what sex was like. I don't know how normal that is. I guess that her mom just kept her in the dark. But like, it's so nuts that, like, a kiss could ruin a woman's future and these other women get to fuck whoever.


Why would anybody tell you, though, like, even now it's awkward to talk to your daughters about sex? Like, who would tell you about it? I don't know. But yeah, I would be the opera singer or the dressmaker. OK, you want to go to Lady Whistle? That is, without revealing it. I would. So I was shook because like I thought it was somebody else for I don't need to get into it. I thought that I'd write a spoiler, but I didn't.


It was OK. I was just I was shocked when I found out who it was. Yeah, I was shocked. I want to watch it almost to go back and watch it from that lens.


I still think I would have been happier if the original person I thought who was was that person. Well, you thought it was a dressmaker. Yeah. Was also so did Eloise. So which I always love her. I love that they they made a character like that. I mean, she's just like progressive feminist. I mean, that girl lives in Brooklyn. She's a writer. But that girl just like rides for like. You went to Sarah Lawrence.


I loved her. I love that character.


But for me, yes, I it took a little while to get super into it. I'm very glad that I waited it out. I love the last three episodes. It makes me very sad for season to love the cast, love the music, love the sex scenes. I could have done with more of them, but I love the ones that they did. Yeah, like I was just like, when are they going to fuck. I know.


OK, is there going to be another season or was this just like this? Was I just the way they wrapped it up, it felt to me like this was it like this was good Queen's Gambit, like a one off series. I didn't think they were going to reveal who Lady whistled down was. And they do in the last second of it. If they didn't reveal who that was, I would say for sure. But I kind of thought second season.


But I'm like, she got pregnant. Like, everything just got, like, tidied up. Like Marina pregnant girl went with that guy, like, they just, like, buttoned everything up. Yeah. So, I mean, I guess we could Google this. OK, and then actually I just did Google season do hasn't been confirmed yet but it seems likely. I mean. Yeah, due to the popularity I just don't know if it wasn't planned.


Like some shows are just the one series. Yeah. Maybe you're right. I don't know. People say someone emailed us and just one line, her email.


She said the sideburns are Rohnert for the fashion back then.


Listen, also as somebody who has some pretty prominent sideburns, I just showed them off the other day.


They were getting so long, they were like Orthodox Jew, like curly hair and very brown. I shaved him down the other day and then I was worried that guy I was going to, like, touch my face and might be like, did you shave this? But I did it anyways. All the shaving. I'm working on a landing strip. I just wanted to tell you guys we're going to do our we're our partners get the ISO, but I am going to work on a landing strip.


It will probably take me four months to grow enough hair to do a landing strip to all understand landing strip. I think it's sexy, but I don't know how far down the hair should grow. I don't know how thick the landing strip should be like. Does it go all the way down the lips? Do you stop? Is there a hard stop at the top of the hill? I just thought it was like on the top, but I can't get it.


I don't understand them. It's not there's hair in your like in the lips, the way down into the like.


It's got to be it can't just be like a rectangle and then it cuts off. I think that's what it looks like. Like every time I've seen one, I'm just like, that's so weird. Oh, if you like it, it feels nasty to me and I'm going to do it. But it's just like a patch of hair.


And she's imagining. What is the point of that? I don't know. So weird. I don't understand this.


I want out of fashion down there for it. I might show you a triangle and just see how that looks. And then I'm going to see you doing what? I'm not doing nothing. I'm literally nothing. I'm full of common orgasms and I'm going and you're going to get back in the house, but probably not. Want to talk to John, John. I mean, honestly, I'm a Johnston, so, my gosh, such a John stand, OK?


We are about to get into it with John, but we are just going to tell you guys about a few of our partners for this week.


I'm going to tell you about hello. Fries just cooked it last night. Last night I cooked this buffalo like hot chicken with honey on top. It looked in crunchy potatoes and broccoli. I've never made hot chicken before. People are like someone, damn it, because that's a meal. I was like, you know what? Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Skorka with Helen for all she loves are hot chicken. OK, we we love LFR so much, guys.


And we have an offer for you guys that we already told you about. Ten free meals, including free shipping when you go to hell for Ashcombe ten JGI and use code ten. So it's a meal kit service. You get meals that are ready to cook, they come with a recipe card, everything is proportioned. You select your meals in advance. I get mine on Monday, sometimes Sunday night, and then I get three meals and I make those throughout the week.


I get meals for two and I will cook for somebody or I'll just have half and I'll have the leftovers the next day. I choose all kinds of things. I love some of the rice based meals. I loved the chicken that I just did. I love their pastas. They have these one pan meals that are super easy to make. I get the meatballs every time they're available, obsess the meatballs and I just feel so good. I mean, if I don't eat hello fresh like for a few nights and I'm eating takeout or I'm going to a restaurant or whatever it is, my body feels completely differently.


I feel like you and I, I mean, just because a pandemic is not going on, eating out as much in like honestly cooking at home, cooking this kind of stuff at home has changed my body, like the way I feel. Yes. So they offer twenty three weekly recipes with a range of cuisines and there's local carb smart vegetarian pescatore and every single recipe is packed with fresh produce sourced directly from farmers there. Their food is just really good.


The meats are really so good, the vegetables are always fresh and they're sustainable too. So if you're trying to eat more sustainably this year, how fresh is not only the first carbon neutral milk it, but it also helps you reduce your food waste by at least twenty five percent with proportion ingredients. So we love to see it. So we have a deal for you guys. This is a good one. Regrading ten free meals, so go to Hello Francom Ten GGGI and use code ten GGGI for ten free meals including free shipping and keep tagging us.


This is one of the best things you can do to kick the year off whether you want to eat better or you just want to learn to cook. It's so fun. Fun, free day, fun for girls night. We've done both and I'm glad you talked about the New Year because I'm excited to talk about our next partner, which is earnest and it's about student loan financing in the New Year. I think it's a really nice time to start fresh.


I've definitely been there where I have been worried sick and overwhelmed by my student loan debt. I, when I got out of college, is feeling like so overwhelmed that I like, pay all this money and pay rent. How am I going to do this? And like, I remember, like, sitting on the floor and just crying and not knowing how to deal with this. And if you guys are overwhelmed by this with today's low interest rates, it's a great time to refinance your student loans.


Ernest is offering our listeners a one hundred dollar cash bonus. You can refinance your student debt at Ernest Dotcom ciggie. It's not available in all states. Terms and conditions will apply. You can visit Ernest Dotcom, slash licenses for a full list of licenses. And I'm going to tell you guys a little bit about it. And then you can go to the website, obviously, to explore a little more. But they offer low rate student loan refinancing.


You can check your rate risk free. It just takes two minutes. So it's super quick. You guys just pop on there really easily. Check it with earnings. You get radically flexible payment and you can pick your loan term. So lots of flexibility. And by refinancing, you guys can reduce your loan term, save money, combine multiple loans into a simple monthly payment, which is something that I love because I think, again, a lot of people have multiple student loans.


You could feel very overwhelming to sort of figure out what you owe to which thing when. So combining them together is really, really nice. And then if you guys have questions, obviously this is really confusing. It can be really overwhelming. You can talk to a real live human at Earnest for help on their website. Check it out. Do you guys think now Ernest is giving our listeners a one hundred dollar bonus? Refinance your student loans at Ernest Dotcom aguy again, terms and conditions apply is not available.


All states visit earnest dotcom syzygy for more details. Earnest student loan refinancing made by Earnest Operations LLC. And alas, that's number one two zero four nine one seven. Visit earnest dotcom licenses for a full list of licenses. OK, I'm very excited.


I am ready. I might not be ready. OK, I need to like get it all out because I'm going to like fangirl so much that we are really so excited to introduce our guest for today. He is an award winning a magazine writer, a former senior writer at both Fortune and Money magazine, a dating expert and the author of Data Nomics How Dating Became a Lopsided Numbers Game. Plus the forthcoming book, Make Your Move The New Science. Of dating and why women are in charge, please welcome to the show, John Berga.


Hey, guys. So I'm so glad Maria, our matchmaker friend, introduced us. That's exactly. Yeah, that's her job. Well, we want to talk about, obviously, the blog, Ashin, are huge fans of dynamics. She read it. She told me about it. I immediately, within minutes, bought it. So we want you to talk about the book, obviously, and some of the themes. But maybe we just kick it off by talking about, you know, how did you get into this?


How did you become a quote unquote, dating expert? What's your general background and what gives you a background in writing about this? Yeah, so you're kind of alluding to the first question I typically get is something along the lines of how the fuck did a Fortune magazine writer who typically writes about super boring stuff like agriculture or oil and gas or mutual funds, like how do I end up writing a book about dating and all that stuff is sexy, you know, sexy stuff?


Well, I'm really into fracking, so it's hot. Yeah, it is a lot of high pressure and stuff and gas jokes or I still don't understand fracking. OK, let's look at the different podcast. Yeah. So the back story is that the editorial staff at Fortune was mostly women and like it was impossible not to notice that most of the women at Fortune were kind of single and generally unhappily single, like they had these dating stories and dating histories that seem really weird to me because they seem to have everything going for them dating lines, whereas most of the men were like me and they were either married or involved in the relationship.


And I think I can objectively say we had less going for us dating wise than the women I worked with. And I couldn't figure out why dating seemed so much easier for men than women. And that was kind of the origin of dating nomics. OK, and this is based 4chan in New York City. Fauji on New York City. OK, OK, so they'll escape for women. You're right. I mean, so many women, all of our friends is a funny meme about it, but all of our friends have great jobs, hobbies, interests.


They're amazing, amazing women in the city. Yeah. Although I will say when I began the book, I assumed there was something unique about cities like New York. I figured that there was something about these great, you know, metropolitan, sophisticated cities like New York or L.A. or Toronto or London. There was something about these cities that were attracting disproportionate numbers of women and maybe it was the job market that was to blame. But it turned out that the like the gender imbalance in Montana is just as bad as it is in New York City.


It's like it's worse in West Virginia than it is in California. So it wasn't it my theory going in was wrong.


This was kind of an everywhere problem, not just a big city problem, but the question was, why are there all these amazing women in their thirties that can't sort of seem to have, quote unquote, figure out? Right. Obviously, like if you I'm sure their moms would tell you they suck at dating and that they need to go on a cruise or join a book club or something like that. And and and I think this is the experience that a lot of marriage minded single women have that everybody tells them they're going about things all wrong and that they're bad at it and that, you know, their mom says, well, our neighbor's daughter met her husband doing whatever and you should do whatever, too.


But you know, my take it's not that men are really good at dating and women suck at dating. It's that, you know, since the late 1990s, we've had about one third more women than men graduate from college in the US. And it's actually not just in the US, it's basically every Western country. And obviously this wouldn't matter if we were more open minded about whom we date and eventually marry. But at the same time that the college gender gap has been opening up, there's been a kind of a simultaneous increase in what academics call assortative mating, which is just a fancy way of saying college grads only want to date and marry other college grads.


So what we've ended up with are these two very distinct dating pools, dating market, kind of a blue collar world in which there are too many men in the white collar world with too many women. And it's actually not just a statistical problem. There's all this social science that's been done on sex ratios showing that these lopsided sex ratios affect behavior. And I think that's what the women, you know, experience.


Can we start just a little bit with? An overview of where this is so prevalent, I mean, I think some of the fascinating things is in the book is like that New York was such a hotbed of too many women. And then it's the West, like the West Coast was more men. And then it was like you looked at colleges, too.


Again, I guess went on to go into the. I mean, I is a lot about New York. They're just because I live in New York. And I had good stories to tell about New York, the California I mean, the the San Francisco Bay Area, Silicon Valley in particular, is like this one giant outlier in which there's more college educated men than women. And it really it's interesting. It really shows up in the in the marriage and divorce data, the the marriage rates for college grad women in Santa Clara County, which is kind of a loose proxy for Silicon Valley.


The marriage rates are sky high and the divorce rates are really low. So you can really see how which sex has the upper hand really affects kind of the outcomes.


I love that you also talked about college campuses and, you know, so we have a lot of younger listeners. And so it's like, I love that you were like, no one's talking about this and these kids don't know this before they go off to college. And it really does alter the behavior of of males and females.


And we should know what we're going into, what colleges were really how I kind of made the made the argument. Because you start with college. Yeah. Because, like, the great thing just from a research standpoint of our college campuses, is that they're kind of self-contained dating pools. I mean, it's not perfect. I mean, obviously, if you live in you're going to college in New York or Boston, you know, you might not you might be dating people from outside your campus.


But in general, generally speaking, you know, people have got to go to Clemson. They're dating other people from Clemson or people who I know. And it wasn't in the book. I wasn't in the book. I'm sorry. Just like you guys check me out. I did a little bit of research, so. Yeah. So I'm sure most of the people in your Clemson were dating other Clemson students and people who go to Northwestern, they're dating other Northwestern kids.


So it becomes kind of self-contained. And one of the things I did in the book is I did this study of about 40 college campuses, colleges, and I rank them by their sex ratios. And then I paired that data with how how kids on campus described the dating culture at their schools. And the descriptions came courtesy of, which is this kind of college review website for kids applying to college. So I'm going to just read a few of these to you and we can go into more detail if you want.


But I'm going to start with the schools are mostly male, like RPI Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, which is in upstate New York. The comment about dating at RPI is most people are involved in relationships. Girls seem to become stuck up because they're in such a minority and they can afford to be very choosy. Georgia Tech, which is in Atlanta. Sixty six percent men tech is a fairly monogamous campus for the most part. People like to be in relationships.


And it's actually not it's not just the like the overwhelmingly male tech schools like Tufts University. And in suburban Boston, Tufts is fifty fifty. And here's the comment. Halfway through sophomore year, people begin to pair off and generally stay paired off through junior and senior year University of Miami. Also, fifty fifty has a reputation as a big party school. Right? The comment about dating at the YOU is random. Hookups are common in the beginning, but after a few months or a year, relationships take over.


Now, let's just park that in your brain and let's let's compare that to the schools that are 60-40 women demand, you know, in sixty just I mean, I know you got I know your listeners get this, but 60-40 means three women for every two men. And that's I think that's the way to think about it. So New York University and Manhattan guys take advantage of the male to female ratio and most have no plans of settling into a long term relationship.


University of Georgia in Athens. Hookups occur rampantly at the bar scene downtown. The walk of shame is pretty common for many students at Boston University. We're actually my son is a student. Freshman year is a sexual explosion there. There are girls to go around and around again and be with. Sixty two percent women. Thirty eight percent male. And probably like the saddest, you know, case study is Sarah Lawrence College.


I didn't even know that man. You go there, I mean. I mean, this is the common the bar, but we got to talk about about my own experience of interviewing Sarah Lawrence kids. But but the comment from these Starcom was the girl, Sarah Lawrence is seventy five percent women, which means three women for every two women. For every one man, I think. Yeah, the girls complain about loneliness. The guys get more than they can handle and mindless one night stands are rampant.


Yeah. So so you can see how as you kind of move down the spectrum or off the spectrum, depending upon your your viewpoint, you can see how the the mindset and how the the behavior changes. And, you know, I, I as I said, I spent a chunk of time on the Sarah Lawrence campus interviewing kids there. And there was this one woman who told me that her roommate had been hooking up with this guy with a guy for a week.


And when he broke up with her, he actually used the word markets like the market for me is too good, which was kind of mind blowing to her. And then it was actually a Sarah Lawrence guy I interviewed. And, you know, like just to give you some perspective, I mean, he he wasn't bad looking, but he was no Steph Curry or anything like that. I mean, he kind of looked like maybe a big step guy.


I don't know, like I don't know most of it, but but but yeah. Like, we know I'm not a Don Juan. He look like I look a little bit like John Lennon circa nineteen seventy two, except even more malnourished like that, that kind of thing. Yeah. So, so he was telling me about like all of his escapades and the social life and at one point I kind of just had to stop him and I said OK, his name is Jake.


And I said, Jake, I'm just curious of your current circle of friends at Sarah Lawrence. How many of the women have you had sex with? And he said, I'd say about twenty five. And I had the exact same reaction. And he kind of caught himself and he tried to like in his own way, backtrack a little bit and like take the edge off of it. And his comment to me was, well, you know, just to be fair, that includes some threesomes enforcements.


Oh, OK. All right. Of you on the same night. Right. This is his mind that made it a little less, you know, less crazy. So, you know, obviously, you take this. I want to talk about college for a second and then you apply to larger cities. But you talk about this imbalance in all these cities and you start to see these crazy patterns emerge of the way that men treat women, the way the women treat man, the way people look at themselves.


What other findings did you find? I mean, I do have some regrets about kind of the tone of the nomics. And I kind of there are points in time where I was kind of just, you know, I I might as well have been writing about the mating habits of sea otters or something or like, I just I didn't have any say, OK, it's a date. It's a data driven by. Yeah, but but but there was like there were points where I was a little too glib about it, but I, I just interviewed all these women who were very marriage minded and I don't assume all everybody wants to get married and have kids.


But there were just these women who are really, really struggling and couldn't figure out what they were doing wrong. And it wasn't just kind of cosmopolitan women in New York. I mean, I also interviewed Mormon women in Utah and ultra-Orthodox Jews and being kind of Long Island, New York, and for different reasons, there are gender imbalances in their communities. But the stories were pretty similar, that the guys were just kind of exploit the gender ratios and the women kind of paid the price.


I love some of the studies you did in terms of the way that men act. When there are less women, there are more protective, and when there's more women, they almost act like they're disposable. And I think that what I loved was not love, but I loved I guess love hated was some of the quotes from some of the men in the book that were like, I never thought I could get girls like this. I couldn't date girls this hot in the successful in high school or in college or wherever they went to college.


But like it, you know, we'll take me work, but apply it to all the other cities and all the other college campuses and all the places that have an oversupply of women. And it's just so fascinating because you put aside the math and science behind why men act like this. And it's the questions that women have been asking themselves for ages. And what we talk about is like, how can how can men, boys, guys act like this and why are there so many incredible women?


And that's the coolest part about the book is because while it's a little bit depressing, it's so validating, you know. The question that you guys know and everybody who lives in the big city knows, like, why is it there are so many fabulous women who can't find a decent guy and it's like accepted? Well, that's just the way life is. That's just the way it is. There's no explanation, you know, and I was kind of eager to figure out the why part.


And I just I feel like so many of these women were blaming themselves for their their dating problems. And, you know, my goal was to make it clear that this is not their fault, that the kind of bigger issues going on here. And they in terms of the guys like I don't think I don't think guys or women are going around doing a head count and saying, well, OK, there's one, two, three, four of you and one, two of me.


I'm now going to behave differently. I think it's like more of a when in Rome do as the Romans thing.


Yeah, I don't know the people I stop to think about the actual numbers. I just think that a lot of men know and these larger cities or in college campuses where they're grossly outnumbered and use this example in the book that they have a slew of women in their phone. If somebody says no, there's five other backup women. And I don't I don't personally, as a woman in my 30s and you're say I don't have that, I don't have a backup of five, five men or women, five men if one says no.


So and you attribute that to, you know, less men going to college, you attribute that to more men going into blue collar fields and being able to make a living. In a way, you talk about the birth control pill and all kinds of things, but there truly is an undersupply of men that are worthy of these women. Say the guys don't think that they're taking advantage of a gender ratio, that they think they're special. And there's something about, you know, maybe their wardrobe has gotten a little better since they're 18 or their weekend gym routine or or maybe they're a lot funnier now than they were when they were 20.


Like, they think it's them and they think, well, I don't know, I might jump in here, just disagree a little bit just because I think the smart men realize it. And I know you said it in the book that so many guys, they told their friends, I got you got to come to me, you got to move to my New York City. There's so many girls here, like I think that I've heard guy friends say, like, we know, we know, we know we can walk down the street and we can see all these women coming from the workout classes.


And you have ten beautiful women for every attractive tall man with a job. And so I think they start to catch on. And they were like, guys, this is the place to be. And they did exploit it.


But I don't think they know till they experience it. I think that's like like the experience we experience. And it's like, huh, you know, OK, this is interesting. So I think you're right, particularly the the guys who never get married or at least like the guy who's never married at thirty nine, who is not bad looking and works for Goldman Sachs or whatever, like he he knows it and his behavior shows it. But I do think there are guys who kind of just think they're lucky or kind of they think it's about them and that they're in high demand and there's something about them where they think they deserve all the attention, which I would say I mean, you tell me if I'm I would say makes their behavior even worse, if they think that they're like they really deserve this shit.


You know, I think if men were aware that, like, this was an anomaly, they might like they might appreciate it a little more. Yeah, but if men were like, my dick is exactly. You know, I think the one of the guys at Sarah Lawrence actually said I think he said he described the phenomenon there as golden penis syndrome. Yeah. Which they they all felt like they were they were really, really special.


OK, well, we are just going to take a very quick break to talk about other partners for this episode. And we will get right back into it with John. I am telling you guys about calm. This is an app that helps you sleep, helps you meditate, helps you relax. I'm so obsessed with that. I use every night to fall asleep. One of the most powerful ways to improve your overall health and happiness is to get a good night's sleep.


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Yes. So let's get back into Rejon something I am so excited to discuss that you talked about in the book and that is when women in their 30s and their 40s and even late twenties, they're like at the top of their game, they're attractive, they're successful and then the guys aren't up to par. Like it was pretty blunt. You were like, they're kind of undateable losers, like either either that or they have gotten so used either like on paper, they're awesome.


Like they're they're good looking and wealthy and, you know, they can crack a good joke and they're good company, but they're just so used to this kind of never ending supply of women who were interested in them, that even if they're not kind of undateable in the way you're talking about, they may be undateable anyway.


But I think you also said, like, there are also just some, like, losers with no jobs, you know, like there it's such a stark contrast to women that are single, have never married, you know. Yeah, yeah.


No, I just I mean, again, the reason I wrote the book is that my wife and I know all these like amazing women in their 30s and 40s who wanted to get married. And it just was confusing to us, like, why why it was so hard for them. And, you know, I got married in my mid 20s, so I was a little like it was this was more of like a curiosity than something I lived OK.


And you see that like this. And you tell me like, what are you seeing about the percentage of men that are, quote unquote, decent man with decent jobs, nice guys that have a healthy attachment style, know are they getting off the market a lot sooner so that the people that are actually left in the dating pool, like you said, in their late 30s, I actually do think kind of the younger men are less jaded and less affected by this.


In my new book, Make Your Move, one of the one of the pieces of advice I have for for women is to date younger men, because, like, if you're thirty three, like a 28 year old might not be, you know, as as jaded and as affected by all this. And there's some research on this. The guys are are are more into older women than you'd think. And also, I think the you know, the another thing I discuss and make your move is that one of the problems that so many successful have everything going for them women experience is guys who are kind of put off or intimidated by their success.


And and the women I interviewed who were dating younger men, one of the things they talked about is that the guys weren't competitive with them in the same way and that there was a little bit more of a kind of an acceptance. While she's four years older than me, of course, she's going to be more successful. And it was like at like the age gap kind of took the edge off men's proclivity to like, you know, be competing all the time.


I love that you saw that.


And this is all stuff we've talked about. I've dated younger, you know, five to 10 years younger, the whole like last three years or so. And we've mentioned that, you know, guys that are ten years younger, eight years younger than me and they work in some similar field, are zero percent competitive with me. And it just kind of works. And also, yeah, we feel like they're not as jaded because we think like a thirty five plus year old man in New York City that's been single for a long time.


That's fucked up. And so it's still like it's tough because I, you know, there's issues with the I don't know, we don't need to go down this road. But it's funny because you're kind of validated all the stuff that we've said where you have to really recommend young men.


Obviously, my advice is more macro than micro. So, like, I don't I'm not going to tell any individual person that they have to do with a younger guy or an older guy or I'm just talking generally.


But, yeah, I see what you're saying, that as they get older, they just get more accustomed to this. Like women are disposable. I can fuck anything if you're not around. Five other people are. And, you know, actually, I do want to date somebody in the same phase of life as us, but we totally agree with you. If you're five years older than a man, you're more successful than them. It's like, well, I'm supposed to be more successful than, you know, and make your move.


I mean, there are lots of these really fun stories that illustrate the points of making in the chapter on dating younger men. There's a couple I think she's I think right now she's probably thirty four and he's maybe twenty eight, I think. Yeah. And you know, and when they met like like they didn't know, I mean it wasn't apparent to either of them that there was an age gap. And for him it didn't matter at all. For him, for her it was a little bit of like, well, when I'm forty is he going to think I like all that kind of thing?


But, you know, they're actually married with a kid right now. And one of the things that he told me early on was that, you know, when he was dating women his age, he would get like he's in the art world and he would get super competitive whether you'd be dating people in his business. And it all pissed off when one of these women kind of outshined him in some way or like there was one story where he did what he did his girlfriend a favor and.


Turned into this gig that he'd been angling for for weeks, and he was just really it kind of tanked the relationship because he was so upset that she got ahead of him, essentially. And he told me that, like with with his now wife, like this was never an issue just because, of course, you know, he's he's a little bit different stage than his wife who's, you know, five, six years older.


Yeah. And I think five, six years is great. I was just doing like eight to ten. Yeah. I was just like not you know, I've had some disappointments, so I just want to before we move on too far, I want to back up and wrap up some we were talking about before, which is that there's all these women that, you know, have reached the age of, say, thirty five and they can't find a man and they're the dating pool is smaller.


And, you know, what are you seeing that do in terms of the behavior of women? Are they abandoning their their desire to get married? Are they all just dating younger? What do you see? Are they moving? Yeah. Are they moving? How are you seeing this affect when once they sort of realize, you know, this feels like it's not me, like what's going on here? I mean, one of the pieces of advice I did have and the nomics was this idea of moving that like, OK, you're you're stuck in a rut in Washington, D.C. or New York or Miami, maybe move to Denver or Seattle or San Jose where the marriage market or the dating market is more balanced.


You know, but the thing is, I actually think that works better for the younger woman who's just starting out like I it's I'm kicking myself for this idea of, like suggesting to a 40 year old woman in Washington, D.C., who has a whole life and a set of friends and a career. The idea that I'm going to tell her to move to Denver just because the sex ratios are better, like I just think more women are staying single.


And you see in the numbers, I mean, I have my own ideas about what people can do to beat the odds. And I'm a big fan of and this is something I talk about to make your move of kind of unshackling the college box, so to speak, when you're you know, when you're dating and be open minded about dating people who didn't go to college in the eye. I mean, I, I coached Little League Baseball coach with and against all these, you know, like, you know, working class guys.


I mean, they're contractors, cops, firemen, electricians. And I can tell you, they're like great guys and terrific dads. And they probably make way more money than you think they do. I mean, like, I, I mean, my plumber, I am given how much I paid him last year, I guarantee he makes more money than I do. Yeah. I think we should abandon this notion that we all need to, like, move to New York City and date the Wall Street guy.


That guy is not going to be a nice guy to you. Maybe some maybe some of them are my is like one of those guys. But and he's a wonderful person. But I like this idea that, like, women are sort of abandoning this idea that they have to be with that guy. Yeah, I agree. And also, like that guy, if he doesn't work for Goldman Sachs, if he works is like me, he works in media or something like that, you know, he might have like a hundred thousand dollars in college debt.


You know, they don't like the plumber. The electrician is probably also he maybe he's pulling in six figures. If he lives in a suburb like where I live and where, you know, we're desperate to get our lighting fixtures fixed no matter what the cost. But but, you know, those guys those guys don't have college debt. They also don't take their work home with them the way I do. And maybe you guys do. So, like, at the end of the day, they're kind of like free and easy and they're probably less stressed out and maybe better company than the guy on Wall Street who's worried about tomorrow's trade.


But are women changing? I mean, maybe don't know the answer to this, but are women changing their standards or are they abandoned or are they just deciding, I don't need this stuff. I have girlfriends, I got a good life.


I mean, there this isn't going to change overnight. But if you look at the at the at the demographic data that the census data, there are more women married to lesser educated men than there are men married to lesser educated women. So the world is changing slowly but surely. And the percentage of women who are like primary breadwinners in their family is is increasing. I mean, I'm in my own family, like, I'm I mean, I'm not a stay at home dad, but I am the lead parent.


I mean, my my wife has a very high pressure, very high profile job. And, you know, we after a while, we got sick of, like the daily negotiation of who had to be home in time to relieve the nanny. So, like, you know, it fell to me and I started writing books instead of working for Fortune. So I feel like the world is changing, and I I do I do think people are kind of more open minded about all this stuff than maybe they were 10 or 20 years ago.


Well, I think rain and I can answer that question for women and for ourselves. I mean, where women in our mid 30s, we live in New York, we've been single for a while, like we we have focused on our career and our friends and our travel and like building this life for ourselves. And I think that we can answer that question without looking at even stats based on what we see with our friend group. And one thing that really spoke to me in the book that I thought that was so fascinating was what the gender that is in the oversupply, what what they kind of do when they, I guess, quote unquote, realize it or and that with women it almost kind of like attributed it to this rise of feminism and women kind of realizing, like, I am single, I need to take care of myself.


And women become more successful. They build these great lives for themselves. And what you talked about with men was men. When they realize there's too many men, they start to compete and make more money. So the gender that's kind of in the oversupply can rise to the top, I guess, in terms of their fulfillment as a single person. So, I mean, I said that before. I think I was I was twenty seven and I thought I was going to maybe marry this guy and it didn't work out.


And I worked at this job I hated and I was like, this is dumb. I'm destined for more. I want to build a better life for myself. And I went on my own freelance writing and it all kind of brought me where I am today. So I think that I just loved reading that part of the book of like not that, you know, maybe we have this light bulb moment or maybe we just realized it over time. But I think that the answer is like what Rainn and I have done, you know, like where we're like and then we kind of like turned the topic into a career and talking about dating.


But it's I love that, you know, women are it's not like I'm settling for life. I don't want it's kind of like there's more than one way to be happy.


Yeah. I mean, I don't want to, like, pretend that I came up with this idea that there's this tie in between prevailing sex ratios and kind of a rise in feminism. There was a Harvard psychologist, Marsha Guttentag, who wrote about this a long time ago in the 1970s, and she actually died before her book came out. And I kind of feel like that's why, you know, these ideas didn't really like she, you know, I mean, I'm an author and I know how important it is to go out in the on the road and promote your book.


And if you pass away before your book comes out, it kind of gets lost a little bit. So I just want to give her credit for being the first to talk about this. But but she you know, one of her arguments is that the rise of feminism in the 60s and 70s was a direct byproduct of lopsided sex ratios. There were more of the younger women than there were of the older men in that. And her argument was that the sexual revolution of the 60s and 70s was a byproduct of this imbalance.


And the backlash to this imbalance was the feminist movement. And I firmly believe if marching and talk was alive today, she would be attributing the rise of the metoo movement to what we've been talking about, this kind of phenomenon of men exploiting the college gender gap.


Did you say the name of the book, by the way, of March? Gutenberg's book is the title of the book is Too Many Women. Too Many Men. I Know. I knew I couldn't write. I mean, it's it's like a it's a brilliant title.


Yeah. And I like to explore other social factors like the birth control pill and things like that, giving women different options and sort of changing the game. Yeah.


So can I do an overly forced Segway into my ideas on how women can beat the odds? Yeah, we want to hear. Yes, please. OK, so the new book, Make Your Move is kind of kind of picks up or did the nomics left off? And it's it's it's really all about solutions and strategies for beating a dating market that is really stacked against women. And it's kind of like my my core argument in in make your move is that we've kind of come to a point in time where, you know, women are kicking ass in education, sports, business, podcast politics, whatever.


This notion that we're going to tell women that they can be bad asses and everything else, but they have to sit back and wait for a guy to ask them out or make the first move. When it comes to dating, it doesn't really make any sense. And, you know, I'm a big theme of I make your move is kind of encouraging women to make the first move in, convincing readers that this notion that men all live for the chase and we love having our advances rebuffed.


And if a woman shows too much, much interest in us, well, we'll be less interested in them. This is basically nonsense. And, you know, men like women who like them, they're all these kind of really wonderful stories I. Tell on the book, and it's kind of grounded in the latest research on on dating and how human beings connect socially, all these great stories of women who made the first moves with guys, the guys frequently had no fucking clue that the women had any interest in them whatsoever, because, as you know, guys are morons and we like all these young guys.


Yeah, well, I also like, oh, you're on your show angles and hair flips like we have no idea what that means, you know. Right. Right. You guys don't know when women are flirting with them, which is why women who make a more direct first move have such an advantage over women who kind of wait and wait and wait to be courted. Yeah, I mean, listen, I would rather and we talked about this recently, I'd rather make my intentions known as somebody and get rejected than sit around and hope that somebody will come around.


And I've been rejected recently. I reject my whole life by plenty of men. I've rejected plenty of men. But I'm never sorry that I did it because the alternative is wait around. Yeah, no, I listen to your New Year's podcast and you're ready. You were talking about like twenty twenty was the year to like take your shot to your shot. You had the story about the guy who you thought, like, you know, there might be something, something real there and it didn't work out.


But but the good news is you're not going to be like kicking yourself for the next year or twenty years about. Oh, crap. I would if I had said something to him. And yeah, I mean the average that men always have or traditionally have had is that look we may we may get shot down, but at least we have a chance with our first choice. You know, if you're dating the old fashioned way and you're kind of acting as a passive filter of male advances, rather than saying, you know what, the guys who like me, I don't like them.


But there is this guy over there who probably has no clue I like him. I'm just going to ask him out. And, you know, in my experience, doing the research for the book and doing a little bit of early press for the book, I find that, like, if I ask women, OK, is there some guy in your daily life or your your universe who you've ever wondered about dating? I mean, not everybody has that has says yes, but a lot of them do.


And I'm like, well, why would you waste time with some complete stranger on Tinder if there's actually a guy he wondered about in real life where you have real life experiences with and you already feel comfortable with, why not just ask him out?


I love that it I don't know that you really want the guy that you need to act like you hate him because that guy is probably a little self-loathing and probably not super stable in the first place. Like stable people, like people that like them, you know, like it's so it's kind of like the act of I need to really play hard to get and act like I'm not interested. Like, I don't know if that's even attracting the right energy anyway.


Why not show somebody you like them, like somebody that hates that you like them is probably not a great person anyway. They're probably hate themselves. So I swear the secret to men is that men like women who like them, I but people. Right. It's not like I do like the stable people. Oh you mean you like grandmas who like you too. Like, I mean it's not just dating, it's like everybody likes people who like them and people feel more comfortable.


Like if you, if you show interest in me I'm going to be like more engaged. And and there's this, there's been this kind of I mean, like every dating book, every popular dating book that's been written over the past 40 years from the rules to ignore the guy and get the guy has been kind of built on this premise that what it meant, that that's telling young women that the message they have to send to men is not interested means keep trying.


And I honestly, I don't think that was ever super helpful. But in the post meta world, the I like the idea that you're going to tell women to to tell men like noninterest. That means keep trying. Like, I mean I mean, you guys aren't like guys aren't perfect. And, you know, we're learning the lessons of me too. Maybe not as fast as we should, but we are learning. And one of those lessons and I've talked to dating coaches and matchmakers about this and they all agree, is that nowadays, if a if you kind of play hard to get with a guy and seem disinterested, he's going to just assume you want to be left alone.


Should you should leave me alone. You know, I think that there's not a one size fits all date any every person's different. Right. And I think that there's a huge difference between playing the game and playing games. You know, you can act cool and just. Like you've been here before without fucking with a person and yeah, I don't want a person to fuck with me, I'll find it attractive. I think people want healthy attachment styles. Don't want that.


They don't find it fine. I think you hopefully age out of finding that attractive to begin with. You know, I mean, maybe that was like cute and sexy when I was twenty two. I don't find it attractive anymore. I mean actually I always says I like people that don't like me. I don't like people to fuck with me. I don't want it. I don't find it like fun. I don't find it like a good game, you know.


I don't want it. Yeah I know. Also, I mean, just from a guy perspective, if a guy knows that you like him, there's less of the peacocking and he's more comfortable because, like, the way guys are wired, they're trying to get you to like them. So, so and that leads to a lot of really annoying behavior. But if the guy already knows that you like him, he'll be he'll be more relaxed and be more normal.


Yeah. Well, and I love that you said you were kind of I think you were getting there, but this is on the book description. It's that it's better to choose than to be chosen. And, you know, we have been driving this home for a while now of why should women build these great lives for themselves and work so hard and A, choose all these things for themselves and work to get them, but have to sit back and not be in the driver's seat when it comes to a huge part of your life, which is your relationship.


So I just love that quote. But let's talk about this. Get off the apps. Yeah. Yeah. I think that, you know, I think it's funny in our email correspondence with you, I think you were like in so many words, like, hey, I, I really hate at all. I don't want to hear well, I can't wait to hear what you have. So I'm trying to be entertaining and and think, well, like, you know, what will they like.


So yeah. I mean this is now you email us back at midnight which actually already allowed. She is awake and talking to her after hours. Honestly, the problem is that my dad wakes up at like two a.m. John's living with his parents, you know, living with them. I help them like once a month. I my brother and I kind of tag team. And we now where you say, OK, OK, so we interrupted you give us the whole spiel about dating apps, why you hate.


OK, OK, well I'm going I'm going to like, you know, turn it back on you guys a little bit. I'm going to have a little fun here. OK, I'm guessing you guys are like best friends. Yes. Like your I don't really like each other. I know we we could be my best friend. You have this relationship that probably everybody around you kind of thinks is really special, right? I think so, yeah.


No, OK. Can you work can you imagine going on a best friend app and finding a relationship. Anything like what you guys have today. I keep trying to get away from it. I can't know. I know I don't even know you guys, but I am 100 percent sure that your relationship is grounded in in person face to face. Yeah. Real life experiences, laughing together, drinking together. There's no way that you could kind of replicate that connection by treating carefully worded text messages back and forth to each other, correct?


Right. Yeah. Yeah, really. OK, so why the fuck would you if you're you know, I don't assume everybody's looking for life partner, but but if you're using a dating app to find a life partner, why the fuck would you do anything different than what you've done when you got your best friend? I mean, why wouldn't you look for somebody? I mean I mean, the human beings evolved as social animals. We bond through shared experiences.


I am 100 percent certain you have shared experiences that are part of your life story. And the retelling and telling of those stories is kind of the mortar for deeper connections between you, correct? Yeah. And in that and I think people should be looking for similar things when it comes to a romantic partner. And this is why, you know, as I show in the book, this research, it shows that the breakup rate for couples in need online is significantly higher than for couples who meet at work or as neighbors or in church or at school.


And it's no mystery. Why? Because if you actually know the person I listen to your interview with Nikki Glaser and I like her anxiety level over first dates was like really like I said, I mean I mean, I was like bothered by it. And but but part of me, you guys know how she was dating better than I would. But I have to assume she's dating online and she's meeting guys she's never talked to over the phone, has no prior experience with she has absolutely no idea who's going to walk through the door.


And the thing about like the thing about online dating is that every first date is a blind date with a complete stranger. Now, like, I'm like a hundred years older than you. So but when I was in my twenties, like blind dates with complete strangers were rare, but now it's commonplace. And the thing to remember about. Blind dates with a complete stranger is that everybody who knows that guy, you know that online first date, everybody who knows him knows him better than you know him.


Yes. My only point I find I don't love online dating. I find it a means to an end. It's just a nice way to meet people. I'm not asking somebody to feel the way that Ashley feels to me in a first or second interaction. I just find it to be a means to an end. And I want to make it clear that I, I realize not everybody uses a dating app to find a life partner. Like if you're looking for a hookup or friends with benefits or even a friend without benefits, like, there are lots of reasons to use dating apps that have nothing to do with like the quest for a husband or a life partner or spouse.


What I'm saying, though, is that I just talked to so many women and seen so much research that I actually think it's gotten worse during COVA times where the level of unhappiness with online dating is just extraordinary.


Well, and so we this is something our our listeners know about me. I've gone on so many dates. I've gotten so many first dates, a handful of second dates, and I've never gone on a second date from an app. So even every single time I've even gone on a second date with a guy that we met in some other way, even if we even if you slid into my DMS. So it's not how I've ever had success in all the years that I've done it.


And there's a reason for this. And this is what you're saying. And I just also want to touch on Nikki because I feel like Nikki even actually validated your point. And her point was that she doesn't really do the apps because of her anxiety and she would rather pick somebody that she's at least seen on TV or something. So she has a level of familiarity. And she said how they move, how they talk like. So she validated that she was like, I hate this thought of a complete stranger.


I want to I want to have seen them on a show or something. And that's why she slides into the demise of these people. Bachelor, which I get because I show up these guys show up to meet me. And I hate their voice. I hate the way they walk, you know, it's like it's so and so. I remember you talking about the voice thing. And to me as an old guy, the whole idea of going on a date with a guy you've never even talked with over the phone just sounds baffling.


I mean, I don't do it. I don't like to. I mean, I think you guys know this. There's so much you can learn about a human being based just on the intonations and the cadence, their voice and voice. We should be even better just being in their physical presence like the body language. Absolutely. There's just there's so much to be learned about other human beings talking to them, being in their physical presence. And the idea that I'm not I'm not blasting you here and I know this is commonplace, but the idea that people would want to go out on a blind date with a complete stranger who they have no like they've never really interacted with, even on the phone, it just seems strange to me now.


I know like I'm an old fogey in that way, but I obviously there are couples who. Very happy lives, I'm not I'm not dismissing that, I'm just saying it like this sounds difficult and challenging and not like an efficient way to go about things. And the other thing I'd point out is that you would think, like of two compatible people meet and they meet on an app, like the outcome would be the same, regardless of whether they met at work or they met, you know, playing soccer together like or something like that.


But the research on this shows actually how we meet can have a big impact on how the relationship moves forward. And if you I mean, think about you know, I'm thinking about this from a woman's perspective, and you can correct me, in fact, check me here. But but most of the women I've interviewed or spoke to have said, look, a first date from an up from a nap begins with a cramp or the fact checking just to make sure that, you know, he really is Robert, the handsome fund manager and not Billy Bob, the married ex-con or something like that.


And so there's all this online research and then there's kind of the escape plan, like, you know, like the like, you know, like tell your friends where you're going to be. You have some idea of like if it's not going well, how are you going to get out of the whole thing? Well, if that's your mindset going into the first date, the odds of you falling in love or in like or even in like is like pretty low because you're there was a woman I interviewed for Make Your Move who described online dating to me as a doubter's game.


And I actually thought this was a really interesting turn of phrase, because what she was saying is she most she had all this experience with guys blatantly lying to her, like on dating apps that she would go into every first day trying to find all the holes in their stories. And as you can imagine, that didn't lead to a whole lot of second dates. If you're just like, you know, and she's now engaged to a guy who's who a friend set her up with.


And she told me that on her first date with this guy, she didn't even Google the guy. She just knew that her friend would never set her up with a guy who was bad, who was untrustworthy. It was uncommon.


People feel an accountability. Sorry I interrupted you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I agree. Like like if you're accountable to other people, you're going to behave differently. In the case of this woman, she was just kind of more inclined to find the positive. And she said she said to me this was like the closest experience to love at first sight you've ever had. And it was just because of her mindset going into the first date.


Yeah, I totally agree with all this. And this is I mean, I'm loving that. We're talking about the reason why I I have never gotten a second date from an app and why it's never worked out, because it's not just random. You know, there's there's reasoning behind this.


I'll give you one statistic. The marriage rate for people who meet at work for couples and meet at work, the marriage rate is something like twenty five percent, which is the highest of anything. And I like and this is the least surprising statistic I read about in Make Your Move, because it makes perfect sense, because if you've worked with somebody for a year, you know their sense of humor. You know, if they're a good guy or a bad guy, you know, if they're trustworthy or not trustworthy.


You've had shared experiences with them both funny and not so fun. So by the time you get to the first date, you already know whether you're compatible or not. So it's no surprise to me that couples who meet at work and obviously like from, you know, from television and movies are all these phenomena like the like if if if Jim and Pam on the office together now, like, you know, would have been like the most boring. Oh, my gosh.


Yes. All right. Yeah. And I think the stakes are not I think the stakes are not as high for an online date. Right. You go out on a date with somebody on my date and they, I don't know, make out with you and never talk to you again. What do they care? They're never going to see or talk to you again. If you treat your co-worker like that, you treat your friend's friend like that.


Right. Then you're actually on the hook for that behavior. And I don't think that everybody just behaves well because like they might work with you or they know somebody who knows. But I think it increases the probability that they will be right. But I'm a big believer in this thing called the beautiful mass effect. I've heard this expression before, this thing basically, it's like something it's it's something related to Britney Brown. So, like, take on Darren greatly and taking chances in life.


And, you know, there's research showing that the people who are willing to take a chance and like, you know, tell a friend they're in love with them, that it kind of engender this feeling of warmth and positivity in the person on the receiving end. And what. You might perceive as kind of weakness in you is perceived as courage in the other person. OK. And and when you take these kinds of chances, particularly with people, you know that that the reaction is almost always better than you expect it's going to be.


I love this. Just like D.M. that friend. How are you? I think I think John correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't have to be your colleague or even your close friend. This is something, you know, like I think that's that's someone, you know, could be like it could be the cute cop that you banter with at the beginning. Someone I know, just some of you know. And you have shared experiences with share, you know, and you've again, I so believe that spending time in somebody's physical presence, reading their body language, hearing the inflections in their voices, that's going to tell you so much more than spending two weeks trading text messages over tender.


Yes. And I love you all. So you spend, like the first hour trying to figure out, are you lying to me? Is this stuff true? Like, yes, exactly. Yeah, like, yeah. I mean, you know, so then you're just like well over, you know, like a pandemic. And I just figured out you're a real person now, but it's last call. Yeah.


So like I mean the whole point of make your move is trying to figure out like how do I make life or how do we make it easier for educated women who are who may be struggling and getting off. The Absa's is one of the is one of the strategies I talk about in the book.


I think it's just, you know, I've never been big on them. I you know, it's not my preferred way to date anybody. I don't need to say this for the fifth time, but, you know, it's it's been harder during the pandemic. So, you know, especially for Reyna's, you're so good at just walking up to people. And, you know, it's harder. There's not as many opportunities to have people to walk up to any more.


Yeah. So, yeah, no, I get it. And something I talk about in the book is obviously during covid times, there are some people who the only kind of dating they're going to want to do is video dating. So and I understand that. And I don't want to give off the impression that the entire book is negative on online dating. There actually some niche dating apps that I like a lot and I talk about in the book.


But but I still have this kind of broader general take that a lot of singles, a lot of women would be better off if they kind of took a break from the apps. And there's a chapter in the book that I call the the Make Your Move offline dating challenge, which is kind of like a step by step guide to taking a break from the apps and meeting people in the real world.


I love that. And you this was in the book description. It says The first move doesn't have to be a big move. They're going to elaborate that a little bit. Is it just. Yeah, yeah.


So I have a here's a story. So the there's is a young woman I know who, you know, many moons ago used to be our Saturday night babysitter when she was in college. And I was telling her about the about the book. And just it's like a little context and background. I mean, she's she's definitely attractive. But the big thing about her is that she has this ginormous personality, like she's a real cutup. And like, my kids loved her.


But as you guys know, like some men are like intimidated by the whole extrovert thing. So I was telling her about make your move. And she told me the story about how she how she ended up with her current boyfriend. And they were at a party together and they were talking and having a good time. But it was just clear to her that he was a little anxious and wasn't sure if she was just being nice or that kind of thing.


So she just blurted out, hey, are you going to ask for my number? And that was like that was how they began. He didn't grab his butt or anything like that. They were like, you know, he I mean, all she did was say, hey, are you going to ask for my number? And so I don't I don't like the rule followers out there. So we don't that I know. But the idea is that that like a woman who makes the first move, it's like she's like chasing the guy or she's kind of making a fool of herself or something like that.


And that the guys don't like that. I'm not. That's what I'm talking about. I'm just talking about doing something that opens the door wide enough so that my younger friend's boyfriend, now boyfriend, felt comfortable walking through. Sure.


With subtlety, just showing interest. Yeah. Like and we always say this, you can do these things that are against the rules. We're not rules girls. Clearly that goes the same. But like you can make the first move, you can sleep with somebody the first night, whatever. It's it's how you act and your level of like security and confidence. You know, like I think that like the roles like now that we know more, we're probably.


Developed for like anxious women and avoidant men, you know, like I think that like if we're just talking about people that are stable and secure, it's fine if a woman shows interest, like, you know what I mean? It's not that you're standing there telling a guy like so I'm really looking to get married, have kids within the year, but it's there's nothing wrong with, hey, are you guys right? No eye contact, smiling. You know, we had masturbation and he walked us through pre covid right before covid how to act when you see that person you're physically attracted to in a bar and it's not like, hey, want to go fuck.


Yeah. Yeah, I get on the first move doesn't have to be some big move. But, but the important thing that I always like try to remind women is like look, there's you don't have to take my word for it that men like women who like them. There is a crap load of research showing that men want women to make the first move and all these kind of ideas that women have about men needing the chase. It's all based on kind of like crap science that was put out there by men, by evolutionary biologists who actually got it wrong.


And everything that they've written over the past 20 years is now being proven wrong by female biologists at UCLA and other schools who are showing that there's this whole notion that women are kind of hardwired to be passive filters of male advances, that that is utter bullshit and can say and this notion that men are hunters and women were gatherers like women hunted, you know, like this is wrong. One of the studies that a lot of evolutionary biology, these ideas that are kind of behind the rules at one of the studies that all of this is based on, you know, actually involved fruit flies.


This whole notion that you're going to base, you're going to decide how human beings are going to behave based on the mating strategies of fruit flies is pretty stupid. But I am. But but even then, the original fruit fly study like there's this there's a professor at UCLA who redid the original study that Robert Trivers, who's like the preeminent evolutionary biologist of his generation, like he based all of his theories about about human mating on this fruit fly study.


So so this woman, Patricia Goudey at UCLA, did the the initial fruit fly study because all the ideas behind it didn't mesh with her own, you know, research. And it turns out that the female fruit flies when she redid it advance towards the male fruit flies, just like basically the guy, you know, this guy who did the study in the nineteen forties, essentially, either he was completely incompetent or he made the whole thing up. And a whole generation of evolutionary biologists basically believed it and developed theories around it.


I mean, people are dynamic. There's not one way to get a person and people evolve. And I mean if being passive and sitting back and playing this game hasn't worked for you, then why not shoot your shot and try? The only other thing I'd mention is like my ideas about women, you know, making the first move go beyond dating, like I'm all in favor of women proposing to men get carried away. No, actually, there's this great story I tell in the book about Elizabeth Warren.


We had know she did she tell you about how she proposed, you know, but she proposed to her husband. I know that. Yeah. I think I might have read that. Well, you know who else I'm telling you, John, we've had on her name is Katie Storey. Now, she's an incredible entrepreneur, blogger. And she her husband took her last name for real, like it's not a joke. She calls it Mr. Sciarrino.


And it's like that says, you know, I'm all in favor of flexible gender roles. Like like I said, my wife is actually the she's the she's the chief of the criminal division for the U.S. Attorney's Office here in New York. I laugh it. She's really hot. Yeah. No, no, no. I mean, she does things like put Jeffrey Epstein in jail, so. Yeah. Oh, my God. So I just think we all need to be more flexible and open minded when it comes to this kind of stuff.


And there's no rule that says that guys can't be the lead parent or that women can't be the breadwinner or that women can't ask men to marry them. Yeah, don't be a passive participant in your own life. Yeah, but it seems like DropZone and that I meant to ask you this. I'm just out of my own curiosity. Have you kept up with kind of the demographics of the gender ratio since twenty. Fifteen. Because I don't know, I feel like maybe New York that a little bit better.


So for women, I have to answer this. Why if you look at the national college data, it's actually gotten a little worse. Like there's like. Last year, there were 36 percent more women than men who graduated from college, and I think when I did the original data analytics research, it was thirty three percent. But you're asking more about the postcard stuff. And I have to say that I'm frustrated because of all the many bad things that happened in Washington over the past few years.


I realize the complaints I'm about to make is pretty minor. But the Census Bureau eliminated the American Fact Finder website that I had been using for most of my demographic data. I think it was some kind of a stupid budget cut. So I don't I don't have an answer to your question about whether the college grad gender issue was any better or worse in New York than it used to be. And those numbers are out there. But I would have to hire an expert to dig through the raw data.


And this wasn't a big part of make your move.


So but I'd say with the rise of social media and things like that, more people are just finding jobs they don't need a college degree for. Well, and I think that women have gone out west. I mean, that was part of the book. I had three girlfriends all moved to Denver within a year from New York City. They all got boyfriends.


You know, I think there was a stat of like because like no baby. Let me ask them. You know what? I was maybe. But we you know, there was this big I feel like mass exodus of women moving to place to Colorado. And I don't know the data. And I'm upset that they change that for your sake, too. But I think that people have taken a little bit of heat. And I do remember my best guy friend moving to New York 2014.


And it was like this insane playground that I feel like he started to notice a little bit less of. And I don't know. I think I feel like men aren't as much as pieces of shit here as they used to be. I've had a little bit better luck. I've heard about women really taking this into consideration where they move and like I said, moving out west and things like that. So I would I would assume it might have shifted a little bit.


Yes. I'll be interested to hear your take on this, but my sense is that Meta is part of the story. What you're you're talking about some of the behavior I wrote about in the nomics just doesn't fly anymore. Did you agree or do you think that's part of it? Probably.


I mean, I would say that men have a healthier fear in them. And I think that, you know, hopefully women are just raising better men and. Yeah, but I think women like perhaps it was your book and just other factors, like women started to talk about this. You know, I've noticed over, I guess probably the last five years of this is not the place for us, you know, like really where we're moving or we're going to going to move somewhere else.


And, like, realizing that it doesn't really if you really want to find a husband, it doesn't make sense to move to New York and work in fashion necessarily. So I think a lot of this, like Sex and the City moved to New York to find love, started to be debunked, you know, with the help of resources like your book. And and so that's I think I totally agree in the Metoo movement and just how men act in general.


But I do think that I would I think the demographics might have changed shift a little bit. So anyway, my take. Yeah, well, I'm sure that people will want to read your books or want to see more of your work. So let's tell people where they can find you on Instagram, at your website, your books give up, give it to all of us. We're going to read your Instagram. Remember where his Instagram you're going to you're going to catch me on Instagram.


Yes. In my new book, Make Your Move is basically available everywhere from, you know, Books-A-Million Amazon, Walmart, Barnes and Noble. Basically, any major bookseller you can buy, make your move. The book goes on sale February 2nd, which also also happens to be my birthday, which I hope is like some I hope it's some positive. So February is a big money. It's our favorite month. We love it. My dog's birthday's the fourth.


Yes, our anniversary. I know I can go around thinking Groundhog Day. It was like some really important holiday because it's my it's my birthday. But there's a huge February. Fans want me to recommend that you have your. It's so much short and lunch, right? Yeah. So, yeah. So a book comes out. My key comes out February 2nd. If you want to find me, you can find me on John Berger dot com.


Both of my names are spelled oddly it's a jail and and then by RJR and dot com. One thing I do if any of your listeners are interested, I do these kind of I'll do like a virtual book club Q&A. So if your book club wants to read, make your move. I will log on through Face Time or Zoom or something. And and the three of us do that together. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing thing to do.


Yeah. So you can get more information on that on my Web site.


OK, amazing. Awesome. Well thank you. This is really enlightening your book. Was really phenomenal. I can't wait to get into the next one in February and my my kids will be glad I didn't embarrass myself for their grades. I didn't have to talk about my sex life or anything. Do you want to talk about your life? I really don't, but not all the time, like you mentioned in my life. I mean, from what we know about her, I'm sure she's great and she brings a baton and where the capacity like there's no Amazon position in my house, you know, my dad listen to last week's episode and he goes, I turned it off halfway through the intro.


I don't need to hear about you. And she's vaginas. And I was like, don't listen. Dad told you to be here. I heard about them so many times by now. OK, well, John, thank you so much.


Thanks. All right.


Well, guys, hope you enjoyed our chat with John. We love doing it with you. Love doing everything with you.


Right. OK, you know what? All right. We'll be safe. And you know where to find us girls. Got a podcast, Dotcom Girls Godi podcast and Instagram Ash has Ranaghat Greenberg on Instagram girls and her score got to eat on Twitter and YouTube. Dotcom slash girl's got to eat.


That's it guys. Have a great week I.