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I'm Lulu Miller, this is Radiolab, and today we're going to start with Lulu. I've just I've just recording your furious tape in a very busy photo editor.


My name is Amaria and I am the visuals editor at Vox Dotcom.


Are you exhausted? Were you up late? Yeah, I got to say, I'm not very lucid.


I caught her in this kind of leery moment because the afternoon before January six, she had been sitting in her D.C. apartment doing her visuals editor thing.


Tyvon, we were covering the vote count, watching the live feed of the Senate floor, and we knew that the protest was happening, keeping an eye on the photos coming in through Twitter.


Crowds getting closer and closer to the Capitol building through the wires, barriers being torn down.


And at some point when she was looking at the TV, the live feeds shut off.


There was just a tidal slide. Congress is temporarily out of session. As we now know.


This was the moment that the people outside the Capitol got it right. And suddenly Kainaz is staring down this vortex of photos coming in thousands of images.


And is it really? It's like thousands. Yeah, photos of broken glass, smoke, angry faces. And her job is to start picking the very small fraction of them that will make it to our eyes.


And actually, the first image that really stopped me in my tracks was a pro Trump supporter with a flag standing on the staircase inside the Capitol. And it's from a really low angle. And there's a look in his face. I'm not sure if he's cross-eyed or there was a flash, but there is a feeling in that photograph of. We are here now. I mean, good images show you what's happening, great images have metaphore and make you feel what's happening and put you in that moment as if you're there.


And that was the first photograph I saw that made me feel worried for the people in the building.


So she decided to run that one because she thought it gave audiences a clear sense of what was really going on.


But, you know, picture editing is very subjective. You know, there is this element of my own filter. That filter is something kind of talks about a lot in her work.


She writes and speaks beautifully about how if you want to see deeper into a photo, you need to think about that filter. Ask yourself who put this photo in front of me? What do they want me to see?


How am I implicated in what I'm seeing?


And she says that that day, her admittedly subjective filter was trying to show the rest of us an accurate range of what was going on and also what it feels like to be there.


So she said no to tons of photos that were too blurry to busy. You know, your eye doesn't have any place to land. And, yes, to this very small handful that she thought captured the feeling.


Men scaling the wall, congressional members taking cover, people looting the Capitol, but feeling completely OK with having their picture taken and smiling and a sense of like there was no fear of consequences for them.


And then this one image came to her attention. I did have one slight hesitation of the police drawing guns so close to a protester's face.


Is this the one that it's the three policemen?


Two of them seem to be pointing the gun just a foot or so away from this guy, his face through a broken window.


That that one. Yeah, or less than that. Really close.


And it struck kind of in that great image way. It made her feel the closeness of that moment was was really strong and it gave a sense of how dangerous this was. It's a moment captured in time that's just before something which gives you that sense of tension and fear. And the true incidence of yeah, I guess like no one knowing how this is about to go down exactly.


But on the other hand, I mean, what if this was the moment right before that man died and you didn't know yet? I did not know yet. But what if the family saw this photograph right.


And is the moment right before potential unknown. But if a person's living is that is that it's like an ethical Carl versus legal court. Like if if if the person were dead, that would be something you couldn't do or couldn't do without permission is how the rules work right there.


Yeah. I mean, this is the thing with ethics, right. And there are there are no rules. There's conversations.


Tenna said she had a lot of conversations about that image with her team, with herself.


And eventually I felt that his face was sufficiently sort of ambiguous. She decided to publish it. Yeah. Hmmm, are there images you think just shouldn't be shown that we shouldn't see?


It depends on the story, depends on the time, and that's why I think there are no black and white lines talking with China's made me look at all the images that have been coming in the past few days.


The new questions, I guess. And I also got me thinking about this piece that dad did a while ago.


That is about those lines that crawls under and twirls them, throws them in a blender, all toward this question of what is OK to see and who should really be deciding that. And I'm going to just play for you now. OK, so here's how I got to you, OK?


I have a former producer and now a good friend, Pat Walters. Oh, yeah. You know Pat. Yes.


We corresponded and then he came to see me speak in San Francisco. Yes. And it was based on something he saw you talk about, which is why I am now conducting. Interesting. OK.


Hey, I'm Jad Abumrad. I'm Robert Krulwich. This is Radio Lab. And today, a story about a set of pictures. Pictures. Yeah.


And a set of questions about those pictures regarding who gets to see the pictures and who gets to decide who gets to see the pictures. Do we get to see the pictures? Well, that's kind of the question. So I'm not going to I'm not going to answer that. But I should say that there are some moments in this story that get a little. What's the word, heavy, heavy? Yeah, so be forewarned, but we'll start with the picture taker.


My name is Lynsey Addario and I'm a photojournalist. She's been covering war for the last 15 years. I've done military embeds, infantry units patrolling, going in house to house searches.


She's worked in well everywhere, Sudan, Libya, Lebanon, Pakistan, a million places. She's been kidnapped twice. She's won a Pulitzer, a MacArthur, and she's been called one of the most influential photographers of the past 25 years.


In any case, this particular story, can you set it up a little bit? Sure. So in December of 2009, she was taking pictures from Time magazine.


She was in Afghanistan Gasmier district, Helmand Province, stationed at a base in the middle of the desert.


I was embedded with the medevac team and their role is to go in and pick up injured troops out of the theater of war. This is a small team of basically helicopter pilots, medics, doctors.


Basically, whenever there's an injured soldier, these teams are called whichever team is closest to the injured. We're talking like helicopter dropping into. Oh, yeah, I mean, this is fast.


So Lindsey had been embedded with this team for a couple of days and not much was happening.


So you're just sitting around reading magazines and then rereading the same magazines and one night really late.


But I think I was lying in bed and I was totally like, if I wasn't asleep, I was on the verge of sleep. When they someone ran was like.


There is an alpha. Alpha is like Alpha means the most gravely wounded, like you have seconds to get there. I mean, it's life or death. So she grabs two cameras, her helmet, body armor, runs out to the Blackhawk. I strap myself in and we take off. And I think it was about a two minute flight, which is so fast. And I remember I was shooting the fields as we flew in because I was trying to focus and see what I can see.


Luckily, they had lent me a set of night vision goggles, which was really nice for the military because you can't see anything without them in the middle of the night because they are using night vision so they don't ever turn on the light. So if you were to look through the camera directly, you would see nothing, just blackness, nothing. So what you do for a photographer, do you put the night vision goggles in front of the camera lens so it looks green, it's fluorescent green.


Does that mean that the picture you get is green? Yes. So they fly for two minutes through the pitch black land, the helicopter. She has no idea where. And everything is happening extremely fast. I'm trying to focus as I'm looking out the helicopter door and suddenly, in my view finder. I see. A man sort of wrapped. I think he was wrapped in a blanket and he's he gets put right in front of me on the floor of the of the Black Hawk.


The first thing I thought is I think he's already dead. He seemed completely unresponsive and he seemed so young. I just remember looking at his face and thinking, God, what are we doing here? Within seconds, they're airborne again, flying back to the field hospital. Lindsay takes pictures on that brief flight back, grainy fluorescent green images of the medics tending to the soldier, checking his vitals. We land. At the field hospital, they rushed him on a stretcher into the hospital tent and the whole team of medics, Navy nurses, the anesthesiologist, everyone is there.


They carry him inside and put them immediately on the table, cut his clothes off. They're cutting his pants off, open up his shirt and the room starts filling up with everyone because everyone has heard that there's an alpha.


And so troops come in from across the base sort of in support.


She says within minutes, the room went from just a handful of people, five, six to a dozen, 20.


And it's you can hear a pin drop. I mean, the room is silent, except for the doctors, you know, they're trying to resuscitate him. He had lost, I think, eight or nine pints of blood. They're bringing in a blood. They're bringing in all sorts of things. And I said, are you shooting this whole time?


Well, yeah, of course. You know, I'm basically trying to be invisible because it's so sensitive to be a photographer in that situation.


What I do, I don't shoot like, bang, bye bye. Bye bye bye bye.


You know, I shoot one frame and then I put my camera down and I shoot another frame because you can hear the click of the shutter and it is like exponentially louder than normal in a situation like that.


What did you get? Did anyone look give you a look? So back off. Well, at one point I was shooting for probably, I don't know, five or six minutes maybe. And an officer walked over to me and he said, hey, stop photographing.


And yeah, and I put the camera down and I looked at him and I said, I have permission. She had worked all that out beforehand.


As part of the conditions of her embed, we had had all these conversations, you know, what happens in the case of this? What is my access? What can I do? But at this point, she says, the room was full of people from across the base who didn't know any of that, didn't know who she was, that she had permission. And so she was sort of at this fork in the road. There were those like that officer who clearly fell, but the camera did stop.


Obviously, this is not the time to argue or to be disrespectful. So I didn't say anything else. I put the camera down. But she says the moment she did that, several other troops said, no, let her shoot.


This has to be documented. Oh, that's interesting. So you have one guy who says you can't take a picture of this. Right. Almost like anything. But this another guy is like, no, this especially. Right, right. First of all, the guy who said no was being productive. It makes perfect sense for me. But I think the guys who who stood up and said this has to be documented, I think at some point everyone realized like, look, this war is not going away.


We are losing so many lives and limbs and and no one is seeing it. And keep in mind, this is 2009. This is just the tail end of an 18 year ban where the news media couldn't even photograph military coffins. In any case, the officer let it go, Lindsey, continue to take pictures for about another 20 minutes, she took pictures of the doctors cutting open the boy's chest, massaging his heart.


At some point, I remember someone, one of the doctors looked up and said, does anyone else have any suggestions basically for how to save him? And everyone said no. And they sort of disconnected the I mean, he died. People were looking down and then they were looking at each other and someone went to go get a flag, an American flag to drape over his body, and I continued photographing and there was a moment where the whole room was silent and people stood around his body draped with a flag and said a prayer.


That, to me, is one of the most powerful images that came out of this whole series. There's this old idea in photography called the decisive moment that the world is filled with these far off realities. But every so often a photograph can capture a moment that boom takes you there. This is one of those photos and the picture.


You see all these men and women standing in kind of a loose semicircle. Some of them still have their blue surgical gloves on. They look totally spent. They're all looking in different directions and they all look like they're not even there. But they're totally lost in their own thoughts. Their attention is clearly inwards.


Yeah, I'm sure all those troops were like, God, that could have been me. Why couldn't we save him? What are we doing here in Afghanistan? Is this war worth it?


And to read the expressions on their faces, like it's even you can be at war as a journalist, but never actually get to the heart of the war because we don't have access or people don't open up. And I felt like I really had reached a like the crux of the war.


It just it was war. You'd see an essence of something. Yeah.


But then came a problem. Any photos that she had taken that included that soldier's face or any other identifying marks like tattoos. And he did have tattoos according to the rules of her embed. She couldn't use those photos without the soldier's permission. Right. And you never got to speak to him? No.


So was it days later, weeks later, months later, where you began to ask yourself, can I know what time it was minutes later?


I mean, it's the military does not let a journalist cover something like this without coming directly to that person.


And so literally, like, I followed the young man's body out to the morgue and they had to walk him outside. And I remember it was the moon was so bright that night and I was shooting with the moonlight as he was being carried outside. And then I went back to the tent where I was staying. And within minutes, the military PEIO, the Marines, public affairs officers came and said, you know, you can't send those images out without permission from the next of kin.


That's the rule. If a soldier is unconscious and then dies before giving permission, I have to then go to the next of kin. And I said, of course I understand. You know, I'm not doing anything with those photos and that moment I sign this piece of paper.


When I give my word, I keep that word, you know, but then the other side of me was like, fuck, you know, in Vietnam, no one was signing pieces of paper. And in Vietnam, no one had to to go to the next of kin before they published anything. And that's why the American public, I think, rose up against the war in Vietnam because they saw the most graphic, devastating images that were uncensored.


So then what do you do in that circumstance? I mean, I imagine you go to the next of kin.


Well, you're not allowed as a journalist to reach out to the next of kin. They asked me, are you interested in being contacted by the next of kin if they're willing to speak to you? Oh, so you can't even actually call? No, they will not give you the information. But I said, you know, of course, I would like to be contacted by the next of kin and please pass my information on.


And I was sort of just waiting. I mean, at this point, were you thinking the pictures would ever see the light of day? I had no idea.


And a few days later, maybe less than a week or embed was over, she was flying to JFK on her way to meet her family for Christmas.


And I had voicemails on my telephone. And I listened, then it was his father. And he left me a voicemail and he said, I understand you were with my son when he died and I would like to talk to you and this is my phone number. I sort of choked up just listening to his voice, anticipating how difficult that phone call would be. That phone call and all the fallout is coming up. Animes Lucena Basilica, and I'm calling from my office in Houston, Texas.


Radiolab is supported in part by the National Science Foundation and by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world.


More information about Sloan at W w w dot Sloan Dog Science reporting on Radiolab is supported in part by Science. Sandbox is Science Foundation initiative dedicated to engaging everyone with the process of science.


OK, I'm Jad Abumrad. I'm Robert Krulwich. This is Radiolab. So Lynsey Addario, the photographer, has these photos, these intense photos of a soldier dying, but she can't use them without getting permission from the next of kin. Right.


A few days later, I had voicemails on my telephone and I listened. Then it was his father. His father's name is Todd Taylor. Son's name was Jonathan Taylor.


And just to jump ahead for a second, as we were talking about the phone call and the fallout from that phone call, I had all of these questions about what Todd Taylor was thinking and questions about his son, things that Lindsey couldn't possibly answer.


So at a certain point in the interview, she just told me, I don't know. I mean, you could maybe interview him. Do you think he would? I mean, is that is that is there any prohibition on me talking to him? Well, I'd be happy to give you that. I'd love to talk.


I mean, you can try Lindsey put us in touch and I'll just tell you about the visit for a second. Todd Taylor was willing to talk. He had two conditions. Right. And one was like, if I'm doing do a story about these photos of his son, I should at least get to know his son a little bit. And the second was that I come down to Florida to meet him and his family personally. The destination is on your left.


So I did say good morning. I get up and go to the Taylor family, live in a section of Jacksonville that's near a naval base.


So there are a lot of military families there to come on and meet all the daughters, actually, ex Navy himself.


He introduced me to his three giant boxers jumping or they sort of introduced themselves.


And then my daughter, my youngest, just wanted to meet his daughters.


I am Lawrence Taylor. I am sixteen going on seventeen. I'd like to add my name is Mackenzie Taylor. I'm Jonathan's and our sister and I'm twenty years old. The little voice you hear in the background is Eastern.


He's about to have one baby. She watches. Hey, have some. Mackenzie works as a nanny. Hi, my name's Paige Larson. I'm Jonathan stepsister and I'm twenty one. My name's Sue Taylor. And I'm Jonathan Stepmom.


And then of course, I'm Todd Taylor. I'm Jonathan's dad. We're here in my house in Jacksonville, Florida. And today is Jonathan's birthday. It's April 8th. Two thousand fifty, so he would have been held today. Twenty eight years old today. Twenty eight.


When I got there, they pulled out photo albums of Jonathan. We all sat at the kitchen table and looked at pictures, no pictures of them as a baby.


That was a very young toddler. This was on the Disney cruise. I took them on adolescent Kennedy Space Center teenager see him running track.


He like cross-country, going to prom. That was Jonathan's girlfriend.


The thing you notice immediately. And all the pictures and big blue eyes, you get these eyes that are not just blue, they're really blue. Like if you boosted the brightness in Photoshop or something.


Yeah, that's I think we're on vacation here. But the other thing you notice is facial expressions are some. He was a big class clown, a lot of goofy faces, very goofy, goofy goofball.


Yeah. Definitely knew how to make anybody laugh full of energy, always into stuff. He kept the boys away too. Definitely. Most definitely. Made sure if I had boyfriends he'd call them just to see what grade they had. Really. He would check on their grades. Yeah.


Kind of give him a little interview. I do remember he was very protective. If I had a crush, he'd be like, oh, no, you're not going to have a crush. No, no, boys.


There was one time before he left for Afghanistan.


I got really sick with a fever and I remember him holding my hand just so he can make sure that I was OK and and took care of me.


They told me story after story about how he doted on his sisters, how he loved to read and wanted to become a history teacher after his four years in the Marines.


And inevitably, the conversation turned to the day that they found out he died. December 1st, 2009. They get a call from Jonathan's mom saying, it's that classic scene.


Oh, my God, there are two Marines at the door and we just kind of like left everything to Todd.


The girls jump in the car race over. They all wanted to get out. We're like, no, because we didn't really know what was going to happen. So we made all the girls stay in the car.


And I remember walking in the door and everyone just had this look on their face like the world had just ended and. I remember asking what happened in a moment when he was gone. The first thing I did was run to his room because everything was the same before he left open his closet. And I'm grabbing on to a shirt and just holding onto it because it's so hard to sit on it that night. It's really hard. One thing that had never occurred to me totally caught me off guard in thinking about those pictures is that when those Marines came to the door and told them the news.


Well, they didn't actually give much news. This right here was one. This is what was read. Don't actually read me the circumstances of death statement.


Hostile action result of multiple traumatic injuries received as a member of a dismounted patrol that was struck by an IED while conducting combat operations in the Helmand province. That was it. On patrol, night patrol. That's all ahead. If you didn't know anything, that's it. Jonathan's unit was still in Afghanistan, so he couldn't talk to anyone. He had no clue what happened to his son. So when that casualty assistance officer told him actually there was a photographer in the room with your son when he died automatically, I was like, I wonder what color.


Earlier in my conversation with Lindsey, I'd asked her, what do you remember of the call? So the call I went to my mother's house in Connecticut and I asked my mother to be left alone, which in a big Italian American family means it does not a small request.


So she sort of looked at me like, what? And I went up into the guest bedroom and I called him and he picked up. I think he thanked me for calling him. I don't remember exactly what we said, but I said, you know, I was with your son when he died, and I will give you as much or as little information as you want.


And he said, I want to know everything because I wasn't there.


I was here.


He said, I want to know every single thing. I want to be with my son just to lose him and not be there for him. That was hard, really hard.


And I felt sort of very awkward because I felt like, you know, why was I privy to this moment? And he is the father could not be privy to.


The most important question to me was that he suffered. Do you think that he suffered? I said no. She told me, mister, I don't I don't think you suffered.


I think he was in shock.


I told him everything. How much blood his son lost, how long did they try to save him? And at some point I said, look, I have these pictures.


I have all of these pictures. I shot everything. And I need your permission to publish the ones that show his face. Oh, yeah. She asked me a proclamation and he was quiet. I said I told her yes, but but he said I, I can I see them and I wanted to see them first before I give permission, I want to see every photo. And I said, you know, I'm not sure you want to see these photos because they're graphic.


But he wanted to see the out. He wanted to see every photo, all of them. Yeah, of course. We were on the phone. I couldn't show them pictures. And legally, I needed permission from TIME magazine to show them anything because, you know, as a journalist, you can't show anything to anyone until it's published. You don't show people pictures of journalism before you publish them. This is one of those cardinal rules it's drilled into.


Every journalist said if you show a subject, the raw stuff before it's out there, you kind of given up the only independence you've got. That's what she says. Ordinarily, I would never, ever, ever show this to play it out for a second if he to be cynical about it. If you show the pictures, he might take away permission that he might have otherwise give you.


Exactly. Exactly. You can say is a publication. No, I won't show you those pictures before you have to just say yes or no. What do you give your permission? Like, in a way, if you get down to it? I feel like one of the fundamental layers here is just like a question of whose rights, when it comes to that information, is more important.


I could hear an argument that says the battle is important. It was authorized by public figures. It is carrying America's message into the world.


And shouldn't Americans see what goes on?


Yeah, but I could hear an argument that says, shouldn't a dad be able to protect who sees his son in that situation? Yeah.


In any case, Lindsay called her editors at time. They had a series of conversations that went all the way up to the editor of TIME.


We had a very intense conversation and we collectively made a decision to show him the photos.


To say that decision was unusual from their perspective would be severely understating it. When I first got these from FedEx, I knew they were coming and I was actually scared to look at them and I saw my son there. And I just kept looking and looking, you can see these were the in the medevacked when they got him on, you see the night vision lens, there was Jonathan's body. Just there's a space, there's the oxygen.


So I watch and still see his eyes closed there. That was. Yeah. So many hands. And they're working. You can see they're doing CPR. They're. Now, here you see right leg is really mangled and broken. That's really why he lost so much blood. It was all right in here. Some of these pictures are there, some of them that are really hard to see. Yeah, but even though they show the ugliness of war, I've got a piece of Jonathan, this is my treasure.


I'll show you one of the pictures that to me, it's it always stands out.


You brought up the picture of the prayer. All those people standing in a semicircle with far away eyes right here.


Would you say a little different in their faces here? I mean, it means something. He was somebody. It wasn't just the number. Said he wanted people to see this picture and the others to convey what's happening over there.


This is going on every day.


And he says for him, it's not a political thing. You can feel however you want to feel about the wars we're in for him. It's about people seeing what is actually happening.


I mean, I wanted to let people see the sacrifice that these boys do.


It took Todd and his family over a month to decide what to do about those pictures, whether grant time, permission to run the photos or not. He says ultimately he called Jonathan's mother over her and her husband.


And my wife and I, we all discussed it. And ultimately, he said now.


And it was a lot of back and forth, he said no to showing any pictures at all. Well, he can't say no to any pictures because because there is pictures without the face. Yeah, exactly.


He said no to any pictures with the face or identifying marks.


We decided really that we didn't want these pictures to get out for fear that his sisters somehow would get back to them. And that was the big thing. I didn't want them to to see that yet as their dad. I want to protect them from seeing certain things. So. We decided not to do it. Time had planned to run a whole photo spread on the medevac team trying to save Jonathan Taylor's life, but since they now couldn't use most of those photos, they had to make the photo spread more.


General, what had been the basically the death of a soldier ultimately became a photo essay on the medevac team. And those pictures were maybe two pictures or three pictures in that spread, but they were not the focus. The photo is in the news spread because in that photo, you can't see his body because it's covered with a flag. There are no identifying marks. But somehow in that context, it's it's not got the same impact, weirdly, because you're seeing the after without the before.




And, you know, let's see here, Todd showed me the original photo spread because they had sent that to him, you know, again, super unusual. So this is the this is the feature they wanted to do.


Yeah. We see the pictures of so much more. Claire, this is kind of the layout. It's going to be peacocke 29 minutes, scrapping it out minute by minute, this whole process.


So there you see all the before pictures that lead up to the prayer. And what it seemed to me is like if you don't see all that stuff, the the the wounds and the blood and the tenderness as they tried to comfort him and then the emptiness they feel when they couldn't save him, like, if you don't see all that, you're not really standing with them in that prayer. At the end, you still see them across the space. Yeah, that's interesting.


In the original spread, you are there in that room.


And they did they did a great job, you know. It's really powerful, and I couldn't help but think that, like maybe this would have created that conversation that Lindsay talked about just a tiny bit and like how weird that I'm one of the only people to see it. And to know that, like I said, the only reason I can describe it to you is because I'm on the radio, you know, I will always feel like journalistically. We thought sacrifice.


You know, we did not tell the story as powerfully as we could have, but we had integrity and I feel like we treated everyone with respect and we kept our word.


Lindsey and Todd now stay in touch over email once or twice a year. And in terms of keeping your word, Todd has made a deal with his daughters that they can see the pictures when they turn 21.


But interestingly, the three of them don't agree as to whether they want to page. And Mackenzie, who are about to turn 21, say they don't want to see the pictures.


I just going to handle it. Yeah.


Do you feel the same way? I think for me, I just don't want to see him in pain.


You know, that's Mackenzie, I think is I just want to see it because I'd rather just remember him in one piece how he was and was too sensitive.


That's Page now, Lauren, the youngest for me.


She says she needs to see those pictures because I want to know what he went through. And I like constantly knowing things and I don't like things being kept from me. And I just want to I guess I just want a visual of it.


Sounds like she says she knows he's gone, but she still somehow needs proof. Not that it happened. She knows it happened. But so it feels real. OK, so big thanks to Pat Walters, Kyra Pollack, the Taylor family, and, of course, Lynsey Addario. She has a book out now called It's What I Do, which is sort of a memoir about her war photography and how it's changed her life. And that book is filled with her photography, anything like the ones we didn't see.


Well, there's some amazing pictures in there, but nothing like these ones. So, yeah, that's it. And I'm Jad Abumrad and Robert Krulwich. Thanks for listening. And Lulu here again. Big, big, big thanks to China's Amaria for making time for me during a really busy moment to find out what it is up to. You can follow her on Twitter.


And I highly recommend you listen to her interview on on the media where she talks about a really troubling double standard and a lot of U.S. newsrooms. Big, big thanks to her. That's it. Goodbye. Thank you for listening. Hi, it's Caroline from Nashville, Tennessee. Radiolab was created by Jad Abumrad and is edited by Sean Wheeler, Lulu Miller and lots of our co-host. Dylan QIf is our director of Sound Design. Suzy Luxenberg is our executive producer.


Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Bressler, Rachel Kucik, David Gabal, not guilty, and Sakari and Pat Walters and Molly Webster with help from Cima only Sarah Sondakh and Johnny Mon's. Our fact checker is Michelle Harris.