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[00:00:00]

What happens after an advice columnist signs off on our news show? Dear therapists for My Heart Radio, we find out. I'm Lori Gottlieb from The Atlantic.

[00:00:09]

And I'm Guy Winds from Ted. And each week we sit down with a listener for a consultation. Then we asked them to come back on and tell us what happened. You can e-mail us with your own dilemma at Laurieann Guy at, I hope, media dot com.

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Listen to dear therapists starting July 30th on Apple podcast. I heart radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Caitlin Durante.

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And I'm Jamie Loftis. And we're the hosts of the BEXELL Cast on I Heart Radio. Each episode we invite comedians, writers and film critics to bring their favorite movie and analyze it and sometimes tear it to shreds.

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Using an intersectional feminist lens and the BEXELL test as a jumping off point for discussion. It's the funny comprehensive movie analysis podcast of your dreams. Recent episodes include Space Jam, Harriet the Spy and Set It Off. New episodes of the Bacto cast come out every Thursday. Listen on the I Heart radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everyone. Well, very soothing, their words, and I may vary because a lot of like I'm realizing like I'm doing a lot of like high energy and like air promos and stuff because I feel like I have to overcompensate because you can't see my face, right.

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Yeah. I like I'd like that new intro.

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You like the karma move. Well, I don't know.

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Tomorrow, always. Next week it might be back to HIGH-PITCHED anyway.

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Hello everyone and welcome to another. Whatever.

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So what do we call these episodes episodes? Yes. Thank you. Anyway, welcome to another episode of Scientology Fair Game. All right. So recently in the news, there's been rumors that John Travolta is leaving Scientology. And we've seen this before where Tom Cruise is leaving site. Tom Cruise supposedly left Scientology 100 times in the last month.

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Every time a new movie's coming out. Yes. I wanted you to talk a little bit about that. What is that about?

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Well, it's it's trying to deal with the fact that people don't want to go see his movies because of his involvement in Scientology.

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So, A, it gets his name out there before a movie comes out. And B, there are some people that believe the crap they read in in touch and wherever else, TMZ.

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And they will if they had decided they weren't going to go see the movie, maybe they'll change their mind because now he's leaving Scientology. I mean, listen, I would love it to be true.

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I would love for Tom to leave Scientology and be able to see his daughter sorry, who he hasn't seen. And I would love for John to come out and be all that he wants to be and all that he is. Without this cult dictating to him what he should and shouldn't be doing and and to live his life. But anyway, I think the standard rule of practice with Scientology is, is if someone's saying they're leaving, unless they say it publicly, I wouldn't believe it.

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It's just a variety stuff. Yeah. OK, on to other news. On to other topics. Right, Mike?

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A few things have have happened, as you well know, that I think we should we should talk about and we've been asked about it on social media. Liza Presley's son, Ben Keigo, committed suicide, which is extremely devastating. Radley's. Yeah, tragic. And I, of course, have reached out to Liza. I have not heard back. But I just want people to know that, you know, our hearts go out to her, to Priscilla, to Riley, to Danny, Danny, who is getting lost in this like he's a nonentity as right as Ben's father, who is also grieving and whom I've also reach out to.

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And Mike, a lot of this is is hard because when people lose a child, I mean, it's unmanageable. It's it's I would be inconsolable, as I'm sure Lisa is.

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And Danny, then this is the other layer of sadness is that when you want to be there for your friend, you can't be.

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Yes, absolutely. I mean, and this happens all the time with your children and their parents who pass away. Even ones who are on their death. Deathbeds. Right. And their children are unable to go and see them because they're in forced disconnection policies of Scientology. Right.

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And people are asking us, is there a link to Scientology? Is Scientology somewhat playing handedness or. And the same with Kelly Preston. You know, we both knew Kelly when we were in Scientology. She's a lovely person. And again, there's no way to reach out to anybody because no one will talk to us. There's nowhere to send flowers because they will be rejected. There's no there's just no. There's just nothing that we could do. And again, our sympathies go out to their families, their children who are left now without a mother.

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And then also, tragically, in the Travolta family jet, their son died. And it's just it's just been a really bad, bad time for their families, for their friends, for for their fans. Mike and I have both been in Scientology all of our lives. Mike was in the sewer. Most of his life, meaning he was an employee of the clergy of Scientology. And I've been a parishioner and was in the Sea Org at a very young age in my life.

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So we are speaking from experience and we can only tell you. Our opinion and our experience not blaming them, because might people die every day, unfortunately, too, due to cancer? People commit suicide who are not in Scientology. So we know that those are facts as an unfortunate and sad facts.

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Absolutely. And just to reiterate what you said, Leah. This is based on not just our personal experience, true. With incidents, but seeing what's happened with others and by and also going.

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But also, Mike, we forget a very important part. What's also written and taught and sold in Scientology day in and day out. Right. Exactly, because that is the fundamental which drives how Scientologists act and react in any situation. Correct. A good Scientologists acts and reacts exactly as described by L. Ron Hubbard in whatever piece of writing or discussion that he made about the subject at hand. So if you're talking about depression, there is a Hubbard explanation of what depression is insane to logical terms if you're talking about cancer.

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There is a Hubbard explanation about what cancer is insane to logical terms.

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Everything has a Scientology approach to it.

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And that's what we know and understand. And that's why we feel we can make informed opinions about what may have happened. Even though obviously neither of us were with John or Kelly or with Lisa Marie or Benjamin.

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Yeah, of course. However. But I was friends with Lisa. Lisa was a big part of pushing me to leave Scientology behind the scenes and then disappeared. And I mean, there was one email that I read just the other day was I was looking through my emails and our correspondents and and text together. And she said that she had tweeted out or retweeted it Guns N Roses song, and it was directed at Scientology. And she asked me to retweeted.

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And and then in bold letters said, do not say that I told you to tweet this and do not say that this has anything to do with Scientology. And I wrote back. But we have to stand for something, Lisa.

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And she said, do not say that I'm directing this at Scientology. They know, right? So it's little things like that that she just did.

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And she wanted to push us all out at OUTFRONT, but didn't want to take any of the the punishment that goes with being public about leaving Scientology.

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When Lisa was and this is not any I'm not saying anything that has not been reported in the news about substance abuse issues and going to Scientology for their drug rehabilitation program called The Purification Rundown, which is a bunch of nonsense. But Scientologists believe that if they are consuming too much alcohol or drugs, that they can do this purification rundown. And L. Ron Hubbard is promotes that. It gets rid of all the toxins in your body and basically resets the body to kind of be completely clean.

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And so what happens is people start to drink again, start to do some drugs believing that they've cleared their systems of anything they did prior. And I know that she believed in this program not only for herself, but for her children. I had a conversation with her once saying sending her some links to some real drug and alcohol abuse programs, saying, you know, maybe you want to think about doing something outside of Scientology. You know, look at some other books here, some books on on depression and mental illness.

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And and that was all rejected by her. She believes wholeheartedly in certain aspects.

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You know, I could go on and and give examples of exactly what you have just said that happened between Lisa and me. You know the well. Quick get out there and do that. Contact a reporter, get Ron Miscavige story run in the L.A. Times. Well, why don't you just call your lawyer to do that? No, I want you to call them, you know, that sort of stuff.

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And this stuff about the pure off is absolutely the case. And, you know, it's not limited to her. There's a lot of people that have bought into this line that Hubbard has sold, that the purification rundown is the panacea, the solution, the ultimate solution to drug addiction, abuse and the the residual effects of it. Then you can get rid of that and just be up, go on a binge and then go do the pure off. And it's your fight.

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Binge never happened. Right.

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Correct. And and they send you to a quote unquote, doctor to check you out. Now, when I went to Megan Shields, who's a Scientology doctor, do you want to know? She asked me to clear me to do the purification rundown. Do your files. Do you feel sick? Well, that was a thorough medical examination and then gave her approval. And so that is who Scientology uses to clear people for the purification rundown and other Scientology doctors who subscribe to the same thing that, you know, your body.

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So that's a purification rundown. And Narcan on as one of their front groups that they send people to. And this is a very expensive program. And this is, you know, the same program developed by L. Ron Hubbard. And you could look up Narcan on and you could see that they don't have a great track record and yet they promote what does it make an 89 percent now? Let me tell you something. There is nothing on the planet.

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Nothing. Nothing. Nothing on the planet that can boast 89 percent success rate when it comes to substance abuse.

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But yet Narconon gets away because it's a Scientology organization and program gets away with it time and time again. Well, there are parents and family members of those who died. Who will tell you the truth about market it on. And former employees of Narconon can tell you that this program is dangerous and could have devastating and fatal results.

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Right. Yeah. And there's been like 15 lawsuits from people who have been either have died on the program or have suffered tremendously. And Narconon has paid out millions, if not tens of millions of dollars to settle all those lawsuits.

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Right. The other part of this that I want to tell people is Scientology. Scientologists, parishioners not I'm not talking about Sea Org members. I'm not talking about employees of Scientology. Do not raise their children. I was raised my primary caretaker was Scientology. And that is how Scientology raises their children. So if you have a child who is drinking or taking drugs, your Scientology parent will write an internal report on you and send you to Scientology to be parents by them.

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What Scientology technology? They come down pretty hard on you. They know nothing about adolescence. They know nothing about mental health. They know nothing about child rearing. They know nothing other than Scientology technology. And that is who raises most Scientology children. Not saying Scientology parents don't house their children. They don't feed their children. They might take their children out on a beach day. But children of Scientology are spending their days and nights at Scientology. Eight hour plus a day in my life.

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No, not lonely.

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So just so you know, these are the primary caretakers of all children who are raised in Scientology. So Scientology parents really have no hand in raising their children. They hand them over to Scientology. This is what happened with Lisa Marie Presley when she was a young person at 14.

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I think it was Mike where she was dropped off at Celebrity Center in Hollywood. And Priscilla. No, it wasn't. Priscilla was a child herself when she was married. Her parents dropped her off to Elvis and she was underage and she was at Parenthood.

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And so didn't know how to parent Lisa and sent Lisa to Scientology to be raised and fixed by Scientology. And that's what you have to understand, is that there is no parenting going on other than from Scientology.

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Anything to add on that, Mike?

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No, but I think that it's important to understand that that it's the teaching of the way. All people must behave and the way that all people must conduct their lives is dictated by L. Ron Hubbard. And that means children and adults, because children in Scientology are considered as as adults. Adults with little bodies. Correct. They are not considered to be different. And they. Right. And this is when you say they don't understand about growing up or childhood or, you know, adolescence.

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And that's primarily because L. Ron Hubbard did not even acknowledge that those things exist.

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Correct. He. Laid down the law that in Scientology, a child is to be treated as an adult. In fact, there are things in the sea organization when they used to be children in the sea organization that said a six year old is to be treated exactly the same as an adult, punished the same and treated identically as an adult.

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Right. L. Ron Hubbard, to Mike's point, wrote a policy that said children are a distraction to people in the Sea Org and the important work that they're doing. And so that is why he didn't want children around.

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But that's for the sewer.

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That's not for parishioners, but it explains the mindset exactly you had, and that is contained in other writings of Hubbard about how you deal with children when you treat them like they're adults.

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Yes. And they're punished as adults. Talk to like adults there. There is no different. Absolutely right, Mike. A very important point.

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And it's a fundamental reason why this raising of children is such a mess. It is such a disaster in Scientology because Scientologists. Another thing that that Hubbard teaches you is that as a Scientologist, you know everything. If you read what L. Ron Hubbard says about something, you're an expert on it.

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Expert and Scientologists have this thing that they really, really strongly believe that certainty is important, that this is what Scientology brings you is certainty. And the crazy thing is certainty actually brings you ignorance because it convinces you that you there is nothing for you to know. Correct. And this is a greatly admired trait in Scientology, having certainty. And all you need to do to have certainty on anything in Scientology is read what L. Ron Hubbard had to say about it.

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And that gives you absolute certainty. It gives you complete knowledge and you don't have to know anything else. And that is how children are raised in Scientology. They get that into them. But the people who are dealing with them treat them that way, too. And it's it's just a very, very bad environment for any child to be raised in.

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Well, it's it's for me, Mike. And I think psychologists would agree this is bordering on child neglect and child abuse, because you and I both know how children are treated in Scientology and their parents are because they believe that they're old spirits and little bodies, that that this is exactly how they should be punished. And this is how they should be talked to. And this is how they should be dealt with. And the other layer of this, Mike, is also depression.

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Scientology does not believe in depression. They don't even use the word depression. If you were to say that you were depressed as a Scientologist, you would be thoroughly punished immediately. He would be pulled off of any kind of spiritual path. You were on, if you can call it that, in Scientology, you will be dealt with because this is not a term that Scientology acknowledges.

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It's not a condition that they acknowledge. And they just want you to stop saying that word. On top of not even accepting this as a condition, Scientology will the advice that you're given, if you tell it like, if you say to your mom and depressed or your Scientology parent will look at you kind of like, what is this word?

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And basically you're just told, OK, just continue in Scientology. Not not like, oh, OK, we're going to alter the program because you said that it is just ignored. You're making yourself feel that way. You're making it up. And stop saying that word and just continue on your course. Or what are your or your counseling or your whatever.

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And it is literally just shoved aside. You are shamed for even saying it, your shame for feeling it. And so you learn in Scientology pretty early on to shove down and to lie about your condition because you are punish for this.

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Right. This this idea is thought in Scientology to be a psychiatric trick that psychiatry labels people and they just say, you told them in order to give them drugs and sell drugs for Big Pharma. I mean, this is the mindset of Scientology. So depression equates to this is a psychiatric label that is used to sell drugs to people, to control them and ultimately destroy them. Depression is not viewed as a valid condition. It's not viewed as a phony label, that psych.

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Dietary off a made up world. Right. And they've just made it up out of whole cloth in order to sell drugs that they must make up out of whole cloth because they make big profits. And it controls people.

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And now, Mike, what? Why is. No, just talk. Just talked for a minute. Why is because a lot of the teachings in Scientology. Everybody has to read the same thing. Scientology is not faith based. Everybody should just get that out of their minds. It is laid out exactly how you're supposed to read certain things and listen to certain tapes. It's laid out. It's it's laid out. And you have to prepare for this.

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So it's not a faith based anything.

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It's a it's a business at best, a cult, but it is a business and it should be treated as such. But the business of Scientology is sold. It's not. You could just put a dollar and a friggin basket. I mean, it is pre sold prepackaged.

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They we've talked about this on the aftermath. But for those who haven't watched the aftermath, you should know and look it up on the Internet. You don't need me and might explain it to you. Look up the Scientology bridge, look up Scientology price list, you know, and you could see it there for yourself. There is nothing. So when people say it's like any other religion, shut the fuck up with this. It's nothing like any fucking religion ever.

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Like, stop it. It is not that you don't. Okay, I'm gonna stop. Mike, did you want to interrupt me?

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No, but I was waiting for you to get to the to where you were heading. The other thing is there is no other place calling itself a church that has a department dedicated to destroying people when they speak out against it. So those for those for those factors alone, let's stop saying it's like any other religion. It is. It's okay, Mike. What was my point?

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Well, I. I think your point may have been something about the labelling of people like dietary. Thank you, Mike.

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Why do you tell was L. Ron Hubbard? Oh, that was my point. Right, Mike.

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And so I mostly really read and hear and listen to and are told in Scientology is the psych's, the psyche that the psychiatrist, the psychologists, those in the field of mental health, most of the teachings are about then being the reason for the Holocaust, for a crime, for wars, for all of man's ills.

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Right. Why, Mike, why is so much of the teachings about the evils psychiatrist?

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Because, Leah, back in 1950, when L. Ron Hubbard first wrote Dianetics, he sought the approval of the American Psychiatric Association and the American Medical Association.

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And also, Mike in Dianetics, I want you to finish a sentence, but also in Dianetics. I should also tell you that L. Ron Hubbard says that he can cure cancer, he can cure blindness.

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Blindness. Yes, he there's this.

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Mike, anything. Basically, Dianetics says that you can solve anything with Dianetics.

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So they are to me once again, because it costs money because they're saying it's a science fact, fact based science that has been proven. You are selling yourselves as people who, you know, taught to say, what am I to assume? You're basically practicing saying you're practicing medicine.

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You're without a license. You're saying that you that what we have is factual, tested and proven to be true. Give us this money and we will in return. Do you know of any doctor who can tell you, Mike, that they can cure you? Do you know of any medical doctor that can tell you they can cure you? No, of course not.

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OK. So how the fuck does a religion. Saying that it's a science. So are you a science, are you religion? Well, it's the way that they present it is that Scientology is where science meets religion is the merger of science and religion. And how do they get away with it? By having a whole bunch of legal waivers that people sign went before they participated in these services saying, I won't sue you.

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And you made no representations to me and you didn't tell me that you could cure me, cetera, et cetera, even though they did.

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And not to mention Mike, even though I signed those going. You did? I was lying as well. So every Scientologist who signs that waiver is a liar, right?

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Absolutely. No, that's absolutely true. But let me get back, Leah. No. No. Yeah. So.

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So, so.

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So L. Ron Hubbard, the scientist, says today, hey, hey, here's my science of the mind. And I can solve this. I can solve that. And they say in return.

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What, Mike bullshit. All right. This is bullshit. It's in fact, to quote them. It's nothing but the bunk. What does that mean? That's a fancy word means. It's an old fashioned word. Nothing, but it's crap. Oh, this is just crap. It's quackery. It's quackery. Crap, crap. Bunk. Gotcha.

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So this is the AMAA and the American Psychiatric Psychiatric Association.

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And and for that, they became the public enemies of L. Ron Hubbard and the public enemies, therefore, of Scientology.

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And they became a convenient boogey man.

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Everett Holt needs to have the US versus Bert and them. Thing going on and Plover's, yes.

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Hubbard chose psychiatry, psychiatry, the evil bad men in white coats that stuck ice picks in Europe through your eyeballs and shocked you with 10 million volts of electricity through your mind the last time they ever did that.

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Oh, I've performed on my body. It's in it. It was popular in the 50s back then. So they were a good, bad guy. You know what I mean? This was like these were people who could be villainize and made out to be. Oh, and the other thing was the reason that. They're so down on me as I'm going to take away their revenue stream. Right. Because Dianetics is going to replace psychiatry because this is the greatest advance since the invention of the wheel and file.

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Well, L. Ron Hubbard wanted the money from psychiatry and made a run. Right. So that's really the truth of the matter. And they have not won this at all? No.

[00:29:48]

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[00:31:28]

So anyway, Mike, the problem with this is, like I was saying earlier, celebrity Scientology, children and and just parishioners children are learning this. Just like I said, all Scientologists are required to read the same things and to learn the same things. And children read Dianetics. They are forced to read Dianetics and learn the same policies that that, you know, grown ups have to read. And so they're being indoctrinated into this think as well. So they start to believe that if I do Dianetics, I get rid of my bad mind.

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Like L. Ron Hubbard says, like my my primary caretaker is telling me, which is Scientology, then these things don't exist. Depression doesn't exist. And if I just do Scientology, I won't get cancer. If I just do Scientology, I won't. And don't connect up with people who are and tie Scientology, then I will just be I won't catch a cold. I won't. So a lot of Scientologist don't seek medical attention. They they seek Scientology solutions and.

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Right. All children are being raised this way to become a different person, to learn to squash what they're really feeling and dealing with and hiding the fact that they are going through some pretty serious situations in their life. So the other thing that I wanted to touch on was was autism and children who are born on the spectrum. I mean, I've heard Scientologists refer to to this as a degraded condition and have said things like what kind of being meaning spirit picks a body that's degraded and doesn't function.

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And in their view, that person should pass away and start again. It's not a it's not looked on as something that's an and if you've ever if you have a child who's on the spectrum, who is autistic. Most loving, most amazing, most intelligent children and people you're ever going to meet in your life.

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And this is not the view of Scientology.

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They view this as a degraded being and would likely not have accepted that as a diagnosis and celebrated it certainly, but also would not have likely gone down any path that a doctor, a real medical doctor would have suggested. If it if you were having seizures to take anti seizure medication, this is just not something that Scientology or Scientology parents would do. Correct. And there are numerous examples of people who have been taken off seizure medication that they may have been prescribed before coming into Scientology and disastrous consequences of that.

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And, you know, I'm not sure there's too much more to say about this. I want to get into the subject of PTSD because I guess.

[00:34:48]

MEZO But I just want to cover all bases so his people have so many questions about it. And. And I want people to know the truth about what Scientologists really think and what Scientology is really selling and what they are behind the scenes. And likely what somebody has cancer in Scientology. They try to solve it with Scientology. Kelly Preston was at the top of the Scientology Bridge where she was supposed to watch Scientology cells on the confidential levels. Mike, is that on 025 operating Phaethon five, which I've done?

[00:35:27]

They say that they are curing the sick sickness in your body. They actually say that. They actually say that they're curing sickness. And Kelly was far past that level and at a level where she was supposed to be cause over her body.

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That's what Scientology sells.

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And I can only tell you my opinion, Mike, and you could tell me if you disagree, but when someone is diagnosed with cancer in Scientology, they apply Scientology to it.

[00:35:59]

Absolutely.

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I mean, there is no question in my mind, Leah, that anybody, and particularly those who are up the level of 085 and above who would seek to resolve cancer or any other physical condition or ailment or even things that are not considered physical, like Alzheimer's or Parkinson's, you know, Parkinson's is physical, but other conditions. And the only thing that they would look to would be Scientology and getting more Scientology auditing. And that the problem with the medical profession is that is, as described and laid out by L.

[00:36:49]

Ron Hubbard, is that they do not understand the relationship of the spirit to the body, that the spirit controls the body, that the body is well or ill, depending on the state of the spiritual being. And this is the fundamental principle of Scientology, like the most basic principle of Scientology is the three parts of man is the spirit, the mind and the body and the spirit controls all. And the well-being of the body is dependent upon the spirit.

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A medical doctors, they are fools because they only treat the physical and they don't understand the spiritual and the spiritual is senior.

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And Scientology teaches that they are the only ones who could fix the spirit to fix the body. Koran's. They also believe make when you get sick and Scientology, you're labeled. I mean, you know, most people when they get sick, you know, you say it to your wife, husband, husband, wife, whatever. Mother, father.

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I'm sick. I have a cold. Your mother will make you chicken soup or give you some sympathy. Not in Scientology. What happens is you are sent to an organization immediately. They will call Scientology and say, my kid's sick and then they're labels.

[00:38:17]

It happens to everybody and say it's happened to to happen to every Scientologist ever. But I'm telling you, this is in writing from Scientology and this is how they deal with sickness in Scientology. I could give you thousands and thousands of documents of teachings of what happens when someone second Scientology.

[00:38:36]

And it certainly has happened to me.

[00:38:40]

We're telling you, everybody learns the same thing. None of this is my opinion. This is the teachings of Scientology, provable by simply while while you're sitting there. Why don't you just Google it? Potential trouble source or Scientology equals PTSD. Only PTSD.

[00:39:04]

So as you're doing that, I'm going to continue talking with Mike. You were labeled a potential trouble source, PTSD, and that means that you have potential for trouble for Scientology because you are sick.

[00:39:21]

And sick people make mistakes. It's the craziest thing. But but it it is what Scientology is. You get pulled in, you get interrogated on the Scientology lie detector, have use. Oh. And the other important part of this, Mike, is because you are sick. But that you're sick, I should say, means that you're connected to a suppressive person, group or thing, right?

[00:39:50]

Exactly. That is what the definition of potential trouble source or PTSD, as it's called in Scientology is. And what is their question?

[00:40:00]

My who a source of of information, disagreement or bad thoughts or statements about Scientology or the truth about Scientology?

[00:40:14]

Yeah, that's right. So you get pulled in and they ask you, have you been looking on the Internet of anything that is not complimentary to Scientology? Do you know anybody who's attacking your church? Is your mother? Is your father? Are you connected to your mother or father? Because he can't be connected to your mother or father if they're OK. Have you watched the aftermath? Have you watched Going Clear? Have you read Leah's book? Are you one on Michael Maxwell?

[00:40:38]

Are you looking Antonio or take as well? Are you listening to Chris Shelton's? Did you read Chris Hadley's book? I mean, so they just go down the line on the meter and mix and find out that you may be looked at something that was not complimentary to Scientology, which implies the only time you get sick is when you look at something that is anti Scientology that's on children and that's on adults across the board all the time.

[00:41:10]

Correct, Mike? Absolutely correct.

[00:41:13]

Once they find out that you may be looked at a tweet or you maybe they will have you disconnect, put a filter on your computer or filter on your phone. That does not have anything disparaging about Scientology. If they find out you're talking to your mother, who is maybe Catholic or Jewish or who doesn't believe in Scientology, they will ask you for proof of disconnection to that suppression and only then will you start to get better.

[00:41:39]

That's what Scientology teaches you. Then you have to do an amends project. You have to make up for what you have done. So you. All of this is messaging. You are the cause of your sickness because you are connected to people telling you the truth. And then and only then can you continue on your Scientology path when you show proof that you have made up for your sinful behavior? Correct, Mike?

[00:42:10]

That's absolutely correct, Leah. And we're even worse than this. This is what then happens if you don't get well. Like if you were diagnosed with cancer, you know, the likelihood of just it magically disappearing because you've sat in front of another Scientologist who's asked you questions is virtually zero. All right. I mean, it is zero. So what happens is you go to the next layer of well, that obviously wasn't it. So now we have to go deeper.

[00:42:44]

So maybe in a past life you had something. Maybe. And it gets and this goes on endlessly. And you're paying for every hour that you spend doing this hours. And it goes on and on and on. And it's always the belief and the hope that if you keep doing this and you and it's always on you, you find the right thing, it will resolve.

[00:43:15]

Now, because we're going.

[00:43:17]

Because that's what L. Ron Hubbard says, that then you do this the right way, like I have laid out. Right. This will resolve. You will get rid of your cancer and your broken leg will heal your your line. Russian will go away. Yes. Your depression that you made up will disappear now.

[00:43:38]

Even worse, when you get to the confidential levels of Scientology, which also creates a psychotic human being, you are told when you get to the confidential levels that your body is composed of and made up of body faintness, body spirits. A Phaethon stands for spirit. It just means spirit. And you are then talking to these entities for the rest of your Scientology career from Otey three on up to OTOH, which was supposed to be the end of the Scientology Bridge.

[00:44:14]

I mean, they've said it's up to 023, OK, but they're focused on getting out OTEY nine and 10.

[00:44:21]

OK. So but but the point is, Mike, you're talking to these entities right from 083 on up, Kyra. And he these are the people who are sick. So you don't even know this. And in your early Scientology, Crunchie, you get not all Scientologists make it to the Otey level so they don't even know what's what's contained in those because they're confidential, of which I can be charged a hundred thousand dollars every time I mention it. Is that so?

[00:44:47]

Is that right, Mike? That's one hundred nights like that.

[00:44:50]

One hundred, whatever. Made by Women is a new show brought to you by the Seneca Women Podcast Network and I Heart Radio.

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[00:45:56]

Rubby, listen to your favorite shows.

[00:45:59]

What happens when two therapists walk into a podcast and then hold people accountable for their advice?

[00:46:05]

Hey, I'm Guy Winch. I write that Dear Guy advice column for Ted.

[00:46:09]

And I'm Lori Gottlieb. I write the Dear Therapist Advice column for The Atlantic, and we're the hosts of a new podcast from Hart Radio called Dear Therapists.

[00:46:18]

One of the most frustrating things for us as advice columnist is that afterwards no one gets to hear how the advice worked out.

[00:46:25]

But on our show, you will we guide people through a consultation and then have them come back to tell us what worked or didn't and what we can all learn from it.

[00:46:34]

And I'm glad in a way that it did happen this way because I've learned more about myself and what I will and won't stand for in a relationship.

[00:46:42]

I don't want to lose sight of the negative feelings that I caused her. I just hope that at some point she can forgive me.

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If you would like to walk into a podcast, email us with your dilemma at Laurieann Guy.

[00:46:53]

I hope media that come subscribe now and listen to dear therapists starting July 30th on Apple podcasts. The I Heart radio app or wherever you get your podcasts. Anyway, the O2 levels, the confidential OTEY levels say that you're dealing with those entities from that point on. And one of the levels of Scientology 087, you are talking to these entities five times a day if take your self in session. You basically do it yourself five times a day for about 10 years.

[00:47:27]

So you could imagine when you're just talking to pretended entities in your body that are, you know, like you find the the body feet, that's being cancer. That's being lung cancer, that's being cholesterol. That's being depression. And so you find out later that those are the things that you're dealing with. Right. So they again, promise that they could rid you want to rid yourself of the body Phaethon that's being cancer that you have rid yourself of cancer.

[00:47:57]

That's exactly right. And this is what's going on. Yeah. And this is exactly delineated.

[00:48:04]

I mean, Hubbard says that this is what and I'm going to read you something. Go ahead. Phenomenon you are likely to encounter on this step. I'm reading from Hubbard. The auditor must now have the PRIO tea, which is the person being audited. Look at the body and in particular, any somatic area or area of chronic somatics. In Scientology, the words somatics means physical condition.

[00:48:33]

Beatties who are being broken legs, misformed arms, cancer, damaged brains or other non optimum body parts or conditions. And the result of having done this is awareness that anything perceived as mass or somatic in the body is not the body, but comes from Betis and clusters.

[00:48:58]

These disembodied spirits.

[00:49:00]

So Mike, you're reading directly from the Otey levels and we could verify that these are the Otey levels because we've done them okay. Right. So we've done these processes on ourselves and we've been ordered. Some of these have has done them to us. So we know we're verifying that these are the Otey levels. Correct. Mike promising a person that they are red of now a mouse or cancer by simply talking to it and going, what are you. Which is the process?

[00:49:30]

What are you.

[00:49:32]

And eventually the that the spirit supposed to realize, hey, I'm not cancer. I'm a spiritual being. And they're supposedly the answer supposed to be me, which, you know, so you end up just saying that.

[00:49:44]

And the spirit supposed to blow. And find another body and you are free of whatever ailment you weren't you spotted. But isn't this, again, practicing medicine without a license? This is not a faith based because it is promising a result and getting money in exchange for.

[00:50:07]

I don't know. I mean, am I crazy?

[00:50:09]

Is the IRS OK? No, you're not crazy, Leah.

[00:50:12]

I mean, I am slightly at my point, if push comes to shove, if anybody ever took Scientology to court on this or like really pushed, they would say this is totally faith based. This is what's so crazy about this. They tell everybody there's no faith in Scientology.

[00:50:32]

It's it. What's true for you is true. It's provable.

[00:50:36]

It's demonstrable. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. If push came to shove on this, they would say this is just faith based. This is like faith healing. There's no difference here. This is exactly what we do. We just do the same. And then you'd go back and say, but wait a minute, you promote this to people and you sell it to them, paying in advance for this. How is that not practicing medicine without a license?

[00:51:03]

Well, it's evolved.

[00:51:04]

It's a donation. It isn't running. Why is. It's out. Two trees set price. You cannot just decide. I want Otey Level five and go in and just get it. You can't get it. You have to pay for the bottom part of the Scientology Bridge and you have to prepay it and it's pre set prices. The only thing that changes about Scientology is the prices go up because of inflation.

[00:51:35]

That's exactly right. But I'm telling you, you are asking how would they? Why are they being nailed down for this as because everywhere you go, there's a slippery slope answer of, well, you know, yes, we do require people to pay, but it's a voluntary donation because they don't have to pay. They don't, you know. Well, wait a minute. You mean that they don't have to pay and they could still get the service?

[00:52:01]

No, not exactly.

[00:52:02]

Exactly that. But that's the that's the insanity of it. And, you know. Breaks my heart to bring this all together, make is we don't know that things could have been avoided here. The tragedies that occur in Scientology, the many suicides that that happen in Scientology, and when you look at it and people say, well, suicides happen every day. But if you look at the numbers of Scientology, a small amount of people that are actually in Scientology in comparison to the people who die on the night.

[00:52:33]

The Narconon program and people who commit suicide, the numbers are great. People who are dying in Scientology. You know, people who've been in Scientology since the 70s because they don't believe in getting regular checkups, because they don't believe in traditional medicine, because their parents don't, because they teach that to their children. A lot of these things could have been avoided. And it is my opinion, Mike, and I'm sure I have to say this for legal reasons, but it is my opinion that Scientologists are negligent to to themselves and to those that they raise.

[00:53:09]

And Scientology is greatly responsible for it, I believe.

[00:53:15]

Well, I have got to agree with you, Leah. I mean, these days, if you are diagnosed with breast cancer early on in in the course of that disease, the likelihood of survival is like 95 percent. It is extremely high these days for breast cancer and many other forms of cancer have effect. I mean, pretty much been solved in the medical world. Not all forms of cancer have, but certainly breast cancer. And there are a lot of examples of women who have survived breast cancer and gone on to lead long lives.

[00:53:57]

And I don't believe that that any Scientologist looks to the medical solution for anything as the primary ungreen way of addressing what ever they are confronting.

[00:54:14]

Correct. As I didn't. As you didn't, Mike. No, of course.

[00:54:17]

I mean, Mike, look, most of us smoked. As soon as we got into the Sea Org at age twelve, and that's still happening today. I mean, children are smoking cigarettes, are drinking coffee or, you know, and they're in the Sea Org and, you know, I mean or they're Scientology parishioners children because they believe. Well, I'm not connected to suppression, so I'm not going to get sick. I mean, look at L.

[00:54:42]

Ron Hubbard. I mean, if the one man who wrote all this shit died and didn't come back because he promised his followers that, you know, he was gonna take a what is it, a 21 year leave of absence, leave of absence and they're all supposed to wish to return. Well, fucking L. Ron Hubbard, where the fuck are you? Like, if this motherfucker couldn't do it? How many Scientologists are sitting around waiting, going, well, where's L.

[00:55:07]

Ron Hubbard? He's over, like, overdue for a return. Hey, where's my mother? She didn't get born back to me. And that's another thing. Scientologists don't look at death as. As most people do. They're not allowed to mourn and grieve in the same way where we believe that when somebody dies, they go to heaven, they go to hell, or they go to a better place. Right. And that's it's fine also. Will leave his final.

[00:55:31]

Some people believe you. Go on. Well, Scientology believes that. And they promote this. I mean, they'll say this to a grieving mother. OK, look, we get it. Like, get over it. Just have another baby. And that person will be born back to you or have your daughter have a baby. And then, you know, she'll the baby will be born back into the family. And so they don't even you're not even allowed to grieve like a normal person.

[00:55:58]

They believe that the person is going to be reborn back into a body that will find its way back to you. Absolutely right. Yeah. Absolutely right, Anya. And just on this point of L. Ron Hubbard. You know, Scientologists don't really know what happened to L. Ron Hubbard. They don't care.

[00:56:16]

Scientologists believe that the story that they were told that L. Ron Hubbard discarded his body because it had become an encumbrance to his research. Right. They do not understand that he was in terrible physical condition, had had a number of strokes, pancreatitis, and died of a brain hemorrhage. You know, this was kept from all Scientologists, all.

[00:56:46]

And they were told a short story, a life story, that that was an acceptable truth for them, that he had willingly discarded his body because it was now preventing him from doing the necessary Otey research that they had to do.

[00:57:07]

Right. And by the way, if you tell Scientologists, hey, listen, here's the death certificate. Like, here's the coroner's report, like this one, if I was sick, like so Dianetics and all the T levels, like he couldn't cure himself of all of that he had that they will still say, Mike, I don't care.

[00:57:26]

I don't I don't see that. Yeah, I don't see that that either they believe that it was doctored, which they believe it was altered. Right. By the suppressive people of the world as Sykes. Or they don't care.

[00:57:38]

I mean, look at people. When people die, they go, well, they're off now, you know, getting another body. Right. They'll see an acceptable truth, like wherever you are. You know, I know you're creating good effects, like whatever bullshit they're saying. Right.

[00:57:51]

But the truth is, they believe that that person is off getting a new body. And they'll see them soon. Correct? Yeah. Yeah. We're gonna have all this stuff on your. Up on your blog, right, Micas, including an extensive write up that we're doing about recent events and how damaging that can be if we're going to have real science based facts from Psychology Today.

[00:58:20]

And, you know, people who really have done research and is factual in the field of mental health. Up on Mike's blog for you guys to see, including his policies that Scientology has about, you know, what they promote. But it's not all of it, but it's certainly a lot of it. Didn't you have something on Solo Nots, Mike? Yes.

[00:58:41]

You know, I will have all this up there. I will pull them out and and even the things that I read. Yeah. You know, illness equals PTSD and yes. Equals illness in all caps. Boldface. That is all there is to it. There is nothing else. And this is this informs everybody about how a Scientologist approaches things that go on and how someone who was depressed would be addressed, how someone with cancer would be addressed. What a good Scientologists would do.

[00:59:24]

We should maybe do a whole show on the subject of PTSD and this craziness.

[00:59:29]

It's oh, it's such a control mechanism in Scientology.

[00:59:34]

It's got so many aspects to it that are used to manipulate and control and convince people that what is wrong is always with them. It's never with what Hubbard said or the organization or the you know, it it's it's a whole subject in itself. I agree.

[00:59:56]

But I think we've given people a general idea of what goes on and the aspects that that I that I feel that are attributable to Scientology. And people ask us that all the time. I just can't find it in myself to just tweet something that I think will come off callous and insensitive to children losing their mother, to a mother, losing her son to, you know, a father, losing his wife and son and and a sister, losing a daughter, losing her mother and brothers.

[01:00:29]

So I it's very hard for me to just answer those questions on social media, which is why I you know, I'm not ignoring them. I just can't answer them there. And so I felt this just needed to be talked about here. I hope we didn't come off insensitive or callous because our sympathies and our heart goes out to these families. And if they could talk to us, we would talk to them anyway. Mike, thank you for this discussion and thank you guys for listening.

[01:00:56]

Has not been an easy thing to talk about. As you can see, it's it's a I don't know.

[01:01:04]

I don't know how to think.

[01:01:05]

Well, I just want to say also, Leah, that my heart goes out to Lisa and to John and the rest of those families, because these are people I know this is not an abstract. Right. You know, it's over. There's something in the news headlines. I know I know these families pretty well. You know, I knew Kelly quite well. Oddly, Kelly went to the same school in Adelaide, Australia, as I did. Like, this is it.

[01:01:35]

This is a hard subject to talk about. But as you say, people keep asking and trying to to fill in the gaps for. Yes. To understand. And I also want to say this, Mike. If there's one person listening who's in doubt about Scientology, because they they see that it's not working. They see that would Scientology has been selling is a lie. I just say just use this as your time to get out and use this as your time to connect up with people who love you and left and did the right thing.

[01:02:10]

You are sacrificing your life for for something that is lying to you. There's something that is killing you. So I just say, whether it's Scientology or another cults, just get out and live this life. This is the life that you have. Whether or not you believe in another life, believe what you do in this life will determine if you come back as a fucking rock your next life. You can't be a complete shit to your family and to your friends and justify it with your bullshit cult theologies like you cannot justify deserting your own child.

[01:02:54]

Because of a religion, I don't care what it is. You can't justify it and think about that. This is the life you have to prove whether or not you're a decent human being. And it's not justified by this kind of nonsense anyway till next time. And with that next Tuesday.

[01:03:21]

Thank you, guys. Thank you for listening.

[01:03:35]

Hi, I'm Devin Leary. And I'm Carolina Barlowe, and we're here to tell you to dump him. Break up with your boyfriend and we want you to listen to our podcast, True Romance every week where we talk about our love lives and the love lives of others. Please join our exes who we know will also be listening, like Kyle. Kyle, are you there? Hey, babe. How's life? No, you look good, though. Me?

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Oh, my God. Stop. Please. I haven't even gotten a haircut like three months. Okay. Please help us pay for Carolina. Psychiatrist bills by listening on the I Hurt radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts.

[01:04:16]

Hi, guys. Katie Loews here. Actress, mom and host of the parenting podcast Katie's Career, a show that helps women navigate the colossal changes that come with motherhood. You'll hear from resilient moms, knowledgeable experts and me asking a whole lot of questions. It's real talk that offers real perspective on what it's really like to be a parent. So join me. New episodes publish every other Thursday. Listen to Katie's crib on the I Heart radio app or an Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.