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From my heart radio, it's a hey pal podcast, pal, we are going to be talking sports. We're so starved for sports. I literally just fought the UPS guy and filmed it.

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So I'm going to put it on live. We're going to be talking entertainment. Julian Edelman, it's football movies who's advancing between Jerry Maguire and Water-borne.

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I think you've got to go, Waterboy. We've got it upset. Should we call next, Dave?

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We're calling everybody new episodes of Hey Pal every Tuesday on the radio and have a podcast or we're doing a podcast.

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I'm Jennifer Palmieri, host of a new podcast from the Recount or just something about her. After working on five presidential campaigns, I thought women could achieve the same success as men if they played by the rules. Then twenty sixteen happened in my podcast. Just something about her. I'll talk with women, CEOs, athletes, politicians and more. So together we can create our own girls. Listen to just something about her I heart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast.

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Well, welcome to another episode of Fair Game, the podcast. Hi, Mike. Hi, Lily. Hey.

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So today, so cute.

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So today we we're going to be talking about the vow, which, Mike, you told me episode one. You need to watch this show, everyone. It's on HBO. You could also catch on HBO next, but there's a new episode every Sunday. There's nine episodes so far. And I hope there's going to be more.

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But it's truly riveting. It's heartbreaking. It's all the things that surround a cult.

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We're talking about Nexium.

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And today we have a very special guest, the whistleblower who was at the center of that Vall series, Mark Vincent. Welcome, Mark.

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Thank you, guys. Thank you very much. Mark, we are so happy to have you. And thank you for the work that you are doing. It's not easy. It's it's not something to come out from. And the healing process of coming out of something like this is just never ending, honestly. And I assure you they're going through that.

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Yes, but I mean, I'm very excited to talk to you guys because we're huge fans. I mean, you guys, Mike and I spoke about this before. You guys don't even understand how much you helped us well with your show.

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Thank you.

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And I wanted to hear about that. I wanted to hear how you and Mike connected up. How did that happen?

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So Mike actually reached out to me on on Twitter. And I think he even started with I know you probably won't even see this blah, blah, blah. And usually I don't look at all the message unless for some reason I just that day looked and I saw it was I saw I was Mike.

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So I immediately reached out and we had this fantastic conversation. And the thing that I shared with Mike is that what, you know, Scientology in the aftermath did for us was extraordinary and also, you know, going clear because as we were starting to wake up and I can go into this more, we were making this resource list of what you need to read, what videos you need to go look at and what movies and shows you need to go look at.

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Right. And on our list was, you know, was going and clear and of course, Scientology in the aftermath. And I told Mike that for me personally, seeing his journey. Yeah. And seeing a guy who'd gone through this, who was very high up in the organization and who turned and began exposing everything was very meaningful. And there were times when I know for myself, I sat there and thought, OK, I need to I need strength right now.

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And then I sort of think of like Mike and Mike went through this, went through that and like, he's speaking out. I need to do that, you know, sort of like channeling channeling Mike. So it was extraordinary. What what the show, you know, what your guys show did for us and for I mean, literally hundreds of people that we're trying to piece together, like, what the hell were we in? And then watching your show, looking at sort of the pattern of Scientology, then going, oh, wait, that's like that's like our pattern, you know, like.

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Oh, yes, auditing.

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Well, we had that as well, you know. Right. And confession a we had that as well, you know, and never, never questioned the leader. And, you know, if you question the leader, you're screwed, you know.

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Oh yes. All the same. But it was it was very important to us. Twenty seventeen was was, of course, hell. And that's what you're seeing in encouraging the Dow crossing. Twenty, seventeen. Sure. And your show gave us enormous strength. Thank you. I mean, that means a lot to us and and I'm sure you maybe go through this a similar thing that we go through, an x axis of of of cults and abusive relationships come out thinking you're the only one.

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Right.

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And it's funny when you you like when you come out of the world, there's a sense of and you guys can correct me if I'm wrong, but I always talk to my therapist about this. I go there's just a sense of narcissism that comes with your own cult. Right?

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You're like, but I you know, this is a special thing. Like, I have a special thing. Right. Which which is the reason why you get into it is how they get you. Right. That you're special. You're part of the elite. You get it. You're part of the the zero zero one percent of the world's population that is willing to do anything about it and give this up and give that up.

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Right.

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And so you feel there's a sense of, I don't know, there's something about it that makes you very narcissistic. I mean, you leave you have this huge alternate ego, right, that you're all powerful and better than the rest of the world coming down from that. It's not easy, right? Coming. I'm just a person. Right.

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And so because when you're in that little bubble, you're like, I'm mighty. I'm the only one doing shit about shit and the world. And you all are fucking losers. And that's truly what we all believed. And it's hard when you come out of that. It's a huge fall from grace.

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But you also don't have that special thing when you start to find out, huh, there's cults like Nexium, there's cults like this essed or whatever it is, you know, like there's other cults and you're like, oh, I'm not the only one.

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And we we and we are having the similar experience that you're having with your show, with your program where we're watching it X Scientologists are watching and going, oh my God, we weren't the only ones. And that there's so many parallels. I mean, he even used similar words and technology. I wonder if he studied Scientology. But before we move forward, should we give a little context to to the show?

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Yeah, I think so.

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And particularly, Mark, as I told you, I thought Episode one was absolutely brilliant in describing how people get involved in Nexium and that, yes, I wish that we had had the same sort of footage that you had, for one thing, but also that that establishment of why do people get involved?

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I know when I was watching Episode one, Christine, I was sitting there and we were watching the Twitter and people go, OK, where do I sign up? Where do I sign up? What's wrong with this? This sounds great. This is terrific. And and I think that people have this horrible misconception that everybody who was involved in a in an organization like Nexium or Scientology is a dimwit, is emotionally traumatized and incapable of making informed and sensible decisions.

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And people like point at the TV screen and go, oh, that would never be me.

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And you managed to portray that in a very, very real way to make it clear that, in fact, Leah and I have commented quite often, the people who are involved in Scientology, I'll stick to our subject, you stick to yours.

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The people who are involved in Scientology generally are well-meaning, good people who have the idea that they are going to help every man, woman and child on Earth. They're not bums on the street.

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They're not people who are hopelessly lost. Some are, but they're coming into Scientology to solve that problem. And that's what I think you've accomplished. And I'd like you to talk a bit about that, because it's so significant to me.

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Right. Well, just starting the last thing you said, I mean, we were asked to go and recruit the brightest and the best and the smartest and the most amazing. We weren't tasked. Go recruit losers, recruit highly unstable, the desperate.

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You know, that's not what our task was.

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No, I mean, and especially because nobody really is helping anybody. You see, Scientology's like bring us your best to help us promote ourselves and to continue to be a successful business for profit. But don't please don't send us anybody who really needs help because we don't know how to help them and we don't rat out.

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I'm sorry. It's so true. Sorry, Mark. No, no, no.

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So so what happened was that, you know. This project was going along, one of the things we kept talking about, especially when the media, the storm started and the storm started really October twenty seventeen with The New York Times, everything was sex, cult, sex, sex, sex, sex cult. And what we all understood, you know, both both the filmmaking team and us, the subjects, is that the thing that had to we had to do is figure out how do we have people understand it's like a funnel.

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I mean, this thing called DOS, you know, the slavery thing that was decades in the making, it didn't start there. Right.

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Nobody goes joins and says, yeah, I want to join a sex cult. You join something that you think is extraordinary. You guys the same with you guys, I'm sure. So in order to have people understand what that's like, it's not just a bunch of dimwits. Like, how did you not know? Well, you didn't know because that stuff wasn't apparent at all.

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It's like a spy organization. It's so compartmentalized. You know, you're like it's like being an intelligence. You don't know, like half the stuff, less than half the stuff that's going on because the leader keeps everybody triangulated against everybody and and compartmentalized. So what we discussed is and this was really brilliant on the part of John and Kareem, our directors, is like, we have to give the audience an opportunity to fall in love with the dream that you fell in love with.

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And although it's a little bit different for every person, there's this dream and we have to get the audience to feel like, oh, this seems plausible. I probably would like this. And then after a good hour, like fifty five minutes, you know, you get a little cliffhanger like this. It's not good. Right. But if you don't do that, what happens is and I'm sure you guys have had this and I know we're receiving it even today, the question of what were you thinking?

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Right. How stupid are you?

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Every day when I get, like, the trolls thing you knew all along? I didn't feel good for you, Mark.

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You know, this comes from our own family and friends who say this.

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So the fact that you at least have trolls doing that. But could you imagine a friend you've known all your life? What an idiot, Leah, you are a complete asshole. I don't get it. You seem so smart, but obviously not. And Mike gets the same hunk. And these are not from strangers.

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Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Go ahead.

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I did I do have some of that from some of my friends from from long time ago. Yes. And it's hard. I know it's hard.

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You know they say like like what were you thinking. Like I thought you were a smart guy.

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Right. Well, let's talk about that for a minute, Marcus. For some of you who haven't seen the video on HBO, you really, really need to see it. But let's can we talk about that? What is Nexium? How did you get involved? Why did you get involved? Let's just give it some some backstory.

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I mean, Nexium, you know, I knew it was executive success programs, me like big the big company. But, you know, E.S.P executives success programs was the thing that I was invited to after the release of the film. What the bleep do we know? Like, tons of people reached out to me and said, like, oh, love your movie. And like, you know, I want to tell you about what we're doing. And I pretty much ignored everybody.

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Right. But in this case, this is around twenty five. I got I got a letter from from a woman called Barbara Bush who invited me to the symposium with a bunch of scientists and she mentioned Fritjof Capra, you know, be a complete geek. I was like, OK, that sounds cool. And I met with her and with a CEO, Nancy Salzman, the CEO of of executive success programs. Right. I thought they were brilliant.

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They were very, very smart. They also knew a lot about me.

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I'm now twelve years later, I learned they knew a lot about me because they researched the hell out of me. Right. They had meetings discussing what I wanted. They watched every every interview I'd ever done, everything I'd ever written to sort of do a profile on me to figure out what do what, what does he want, how are we going to get him.

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But I didn't know until I know in Scientology, we we call that finding their buttons.

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Right. Finding the right and. Yes. And what their what their ruin is in life. What their what what's what's your way in. You know, so it was your wanting to be this kind of director, that kind of director.

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You know, you would go in on that. You know, we'd go in and going, yeah, you know, Mark, you should be.

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You're so brilliant. You should be right up there with Spielberg, the world. So we want to get in there and we want to find out who's pulling you down, who's not allowing you to bloom to your full potential and start you thinking that it's the people around you that we have the answers for you to get to where you ultimately want to be. So, yeah, same thing. So go ahead.

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So they were they found. Yeah, they found. Yeah, they found. They found my buttons, as you say. And you know, I spent some time with them and then they eventually, you know, invited me to come and take an intensive and it was weird at first. I mean, Sarah says that the. We had a lot of odd things of my life, I'm like, yeah, right, whatever, right. And, you know, around four in this process, that's what they call this process, which basically creates a peak experience where you have this huge aha.

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About something. It's hypnosis, it's hypnosis, it's an LP. It's probably a bit of a bit of that. Yes. And there's this like big aha. I had and I was like holy holy shit, this is amazing. This is really, really good and it's really, really fast. And what they did with me that was so interesting is they said to me like what kinds of movies you want to make? And I said movies to change the world, you know, like and I want compassion and I want empathy and I want all these things.

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And they said, that's great. But you know what?

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You're not a you're not an example of that. And in order to create the art you want to create, you're going to have to be the person capable of creating that. And then they spend a significant amount of time showing me how I was not that right.

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But the point that you thoroughly depressed about shit. I am. So can I swear? Yes. Yeah. Oh, I'm so fucking far from who I should be. Yes. Yes. In order to make the kind of art I want to make sure I'm screwed. Yes. And that's exactly where they want you because I have all the answers. Yes, I have this and they have that and the other I think they you know, they talked about, you know, your deficiencies.

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Sure. That's great. This emptiness inside you and how you keep on looking in the external world to fill it. And, you know, talking about nothing. This was their favorite thing. Nothing in the external world can ever bring you joy, happiness, maybe like ice cream feels good, but that's not joy. The only way you can experience joy is to work on all your attachments to everything external.

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And then finally, you will be unified, clear, whatever, whatever the words are, it's it's some word. It's the same in every single organization. And of course, my my goal was I want to make you know, I want to be a better filmmaker. I want to make extraordinary things. And so eventually I got caught up in what I'm going to work on myself. Right. OK, I'm going to take like a year, that's all.

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I was a year to work on myself. And as you know, one year turns into two years and then I'm moving higher and higher in the organization. You have more people that you're responsible for and more people that you you care for. And you should care for sure.

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But the way it presented itself on the outside was sort of like this, you know, almost like this business program with this very sort of deep things that they were teaching you.

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And many people would come in and say this was a business course and say, well, this is a business course, but businesses are made up of people. Right. So what we work on is people we work on the the human behavior equation that is clearly screwed up because look at the world. Right.

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You know, so that was sort of my my my entry. And then, of course, there was, you know, all the same tactics that that I now understand exist in so many different organizations. And you're right. I really thought that this was quite unique until I began reading.

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And look, listen, my wife saved my life. Yeah. She's my wife. She's she's a rock star. She woke up and she began making a list of things that she was trying to get me to look at, reading articles that didn't have the word cult in them. Right.

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So important, right? Yeah, right. Yes. You have to be so you have to be so careful how you approach, because people, I'm sure, ask you, Mark, and they will continue to ask you. They ask us how do I get my family member? And even though you want to say you're in a fucking cult, fucking Google it, just Google it for yourself. What are the signs of a cult? It's right there.

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I mean, it has not it's not for me. It's a legit place, has it? You have to be so careful.

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So because the word cult and appear at one point, you are willing to look at it, Mark.

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So basically there was an article that that Bonnie put in front of my nose and it said a control group was like a control group. Let me read that. Yes.

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By the time I get through the list of what a high control group is on, like, holy shit, right at the bottom of the page, the word cult comes in. But now I'm a little bit ready because, like, this shit is really accurate. This is everything I've been complaining about in the organization I'm reading. And then what she did was she gave me articles on spiritual narcissism. Mm. I mean, I'll tell you my very last conversation I ever had with Keith Ranieri, she gave me an article, something about the 20 things that spiritual narcissists do.

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Yeah. I read the article. She said I now call him and I called him and in my mind I ticked off at least half of the things he was doing. Right.

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And when I hung up, I said he did so many of those things and she just smiled and she was beaming. Yeah. But then I think the thing that really that really shook me. Was there were a couple of things going clear, shook me. Holy hell Will Alan's film shook me Scientology in the aftermath, really like that's when it began to concretize for me because I saw all these people that were describing the same kind of thing.

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There was this damage, right, that the people in your show were describing. Yeah. This sort of spiritual rape, so to speak.

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And that was the thing. I was like, oh, so it's not just me that's feeling this, because I just I collapsed when I finally realized that this guy was a flat out liar. Yeah, it's like everything. Everything turned inside out and upside down, I talk about sometimes like, you know, in stranger things, the TV show like, yeah, they're in the upside down. I was in the upside down thinking that was the right way up.

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Yes. And so I woke up and I flipped and I was thinking, oh, my God. Everything is opposite of what I thought, right, and that's that is a it's a terrifying, terrifying experience to your psyche and I mean honesty. And I think I mentioned this, that I was completely suicidal because I couldn't there was a bunch of things I couldn't reconcile. And I don't know if you guys went through this, really. But like for me, he had Reinier.

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He had put himself in my psyche so much that I thought, my goodness and his goodness were the same.

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Right. I didn't understand that I was dealing with a hollow, empty shell. Sure. Because he was so good at what he did. And so for me to doubt him meant I had to doubt me. And everything about me was always like, goodness is the most important thing, you know? So now I'm doubting him, but I'm doubting my own goodness. And that was that that was this terrible, terrible thing. And it was incredible because because my wife, Bonnie, knew that's what was going to happen.

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And she was right there giving me every single piece of video or reading or getting me to counselors to help me understand what was going on, because that that waking up was so interesting.

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And the other thing I remember is that it was like I woke up from a fog. I talk about, you know, the upside down going right up it up. But like, I came out of a fog and I remembered suddenly when I went into the fog and I remembered it was around to late 2005 when they told me during these intensives that I was fighting, that I was analyzing everything, that I was questioning everything. And the problem was I wasn't giving the education the chance it needed to work in my life.

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When they said, you're going to get nowhere, you argue about everything. You are constantly fighting. Yeah.

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And what you need to do if you really want to understand what this model does. You need to just try it out, and I remember walking to the door of the room and saying, OK, let me just let go of all that shit that I've used my whole life to protect myself. And it was like I took my armor off and I. Yes.

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You literally surrender the part of you that is the fighter, right. It gets put on pause that what we need, you know, critical thinking to to, you know, but the cult's like this. They they alter this behavior as being opposing, not wanting to release yourself to it. There's something blocking you. This is your other brain that's trying to destroy you and keeping you from yourself and ultimately helping others. And like you guys said very smartly, you know, you go into this as a good person, right?

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You go into this as a seeker. You go into this wanting to be more than just an average human being who doesn't self reflect or is, in fact, like, you know, these are the people that get into these things who want to be more than what they are. They want to because over their life and cause over their feelings and everything that happens to you is you don't want to be a victim. The God forbid you're a victim.

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And all these things are good qualities in a person. Unfortunately, they're also the things that people prey upon.

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But like I tell people, listen, you know, Mike and I have to remind this, that piece of you was always there, right? That's that that is what gave you the ability to leave to start looking at what Bonnie was showing you. Right. To finally start looking.

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That piece was there. It was just pushed down.

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Things they're talking about is not any of that. It was pushing down the fighter it you. I am Steve Smith, singer, and on my new podcast, Cutaş, we're talking to your favorite athletes to get to know the people inside the jerseys, the New Orleans Saints, Malcolm Jenkins.

[00:24:47]

How long did it take for you to talk to a therapist?

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My body felt like it was in a fight or flight. I can't do this anymore.

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I'm Steve Smith, senior. And I'm Darryl Littlejohn. And we're teaming up to cut to listen and follow on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you listen to podcast.

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All of us in America have a duty to vote.

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Don't move.

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Oh, voting may be the cornerstone of our democracy, but the reality of how voting works in America and who gets to do it is not as fair or clear cut as we like to tell ourselves.

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I'm Katie Couric and this is Turn Out, a podcast exploring America's voting record with the help of experts, activists and politicians. We're going to talk about the ways voters have been kept out of the system and how to ensure that everyone can participate in our democracy. Find turnout on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

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The other thing I wanted to say about this is I think that a part of the technique that gets employed is to redirect your proclivity to question fight or whatever.

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Outside you become a part of an us versus them world. And the US is all good. The them is all bad in Scientology. The them is basically everybody that isn't in Scientology. But most particularly, it's the psychiatrists, the media, the FBI, these organizations that are out there that you are supposed to fight against and you're supposed to support the organization that you're part of and fight to the death to eradicate the the things that are outside.

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And I'm wondering whether you had a similar thing in Nexium or Dossi or whatever you call the organization. Yeah.

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Yeah, there was this there was this constant. Programming, so to speak, of like we are the most humanitarian organization that exists.

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We know we were marginalized. We have the tech. You know, I know it's insane right now. We have the tech market.

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We have the technology. And and I remember I remember some of the later on, I remember thinking, but I don't think that's true.

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But I'm not sure that's true because there's a lot of people that are more humanitarian than you fuckers, because I was fighting with a lot of people. But yes.

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What happened, you know, Mike and you said that what happened is that they spent so much time disabling your gut instinct. You know, they would talk about and I don't know how it's termed in Scientology terms, but they would talk about how, you know, there's your intellect and then there's these all these emotional reactions. You're having all these visceral reactions.

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And that's just the animal, you know, and that's why you don't get nowhere. You get direct, you derail yourself all the time because you're so busy reacting to this, that and the other. So we need to get you to sort of, you know, ride that horse properly. And so what that means is every reaction that you're having, it is suggested that the fact that you're having this reaction means that you're vested in some way, which means you're disintegrated disinhibited means that you're not congruent with reality.

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There's something stuck in you. And so what you need to do is remove these disintegrations until, in essence, you become completely flat. Yes. Without without reaction. And right. That was the thing that I remember struggling with because I was thinking, yeah, but what about passion?

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And I will tell you that through over the years it just happened to me. A lot of the stuff that I was upset about began slowly fading. Yes. And I think and that was that was scary as shit because, yes, it only sort of erupted back when I saw the way that they were treating Bonny. Yeah. I started getting really, really irked and really, really angry.

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Yes. But I think the thing that really pushed me over the edge in terms of like being disgusted at them was when Sarah and I had the conversation and I realized what they did to her, because now I saw that's where this leads. Holy shit. And then my rage just came out. And it's interesting because it's almost I could almost say it's 12 years of bottled up rage of, like, you assholes. Yeah. That's what you've been doing.

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And I was so angry because honestly, I remember thinking to myself, man, if I came in in twenty five, if you guys just told me what was really going on, I would walk right out that door. You assholes kept it quiet and you knew what was going on all the time, you know.

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But the rage, funnily enough, I began to get in touch again with all these feelings and all these natural responses that I was having and understood that anger is really, really good. And what's interesting is the loyalists, you know, who think that we're all full suppressive and loose ends. Yes. You know, there's probably 50 or 60 of them. They really spent a lot of time talking about how we're having all these reactions.

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And I imagine they're watching the VA saying, well, they're invested emotionally in this. Of course I'm vested, motherfucker. Yeah, right. I am. Right.

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Right. Scuse me. Excuse my language. But, you know, it's quite all right. I invested, but but they did shift.

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They did ship it away. They were effective. Not effective enough. Yeah. But they were effective because I found that when I woke up I had this clear recognition, oh, I have to rebuild things that I don't even know where they are, that they feel lost. But all the counselors say that would say to me, they're not lost.

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They're just buried. It's yeah. It's like what you were saying. They're just buried in there somewhere. And you have to find a way to let them out of it again. Right.

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And, you know, the thing is, like now doing like I'm in real therapy, you know, reading real books for the first time because you read hundreds of books in Scientology or forced to read mandatory books.

[00:30:59]

And it's self brainwashing because you're not only reading it two and a half hours a day, minimum Scientology, but you're looking up words. You're like, so the self, it really gets in there and it's hard to extract you're thinking. But being in as a child and only having an eighth grade education, I didn't have other data other than the data that was taught to me throughout my life. And that's most Scientologists are born into it and raised in it and all that.

[00:31:30]

And Scientology becomes your primary caretaker as a parent. So even though you're being abused and you're learning to receive abuse, but also to be an abuser, because that's what Scientology is behind the scenes, it takes time to write. So things you would be working on, let's say as an adolescent, you're going through just just general adolescence. You're going into Scientology and being treated and talked to as an adult. So you. Learn like you were talking about, to push down your real thoughts, your real feelings, if you're depressed, you never say that because you'll be punished for that.

[00:32:08]

You're being raised by other teenagers who are employees of Scientology who were also raised in this kind of Nazi, you know, Nazi youth type.

[00:32:18]

Right, Mike? I mean, I don't know how better to explain Sea Org members in Scientology and how they treat human emotion is not good.

[00:32:28]

Right. But but what's funny is the human emotion that's exerted mostly in Scientology is anger. I mean, you were just constantly being yelled at, constantly being penalized, constantly being made responsible for things that happen to you from this life or a former life. I don't know if you guys are into that. Not publicly, but.

[00:32:50]

All right. Exactly. And so so coming out, I found myself spending time with my therapist going, yeah, but.

[00:32:59]

Right, saying, but but but then how come I was like I went from this to this then or how come I like when I help somebody? I saw them change. I saw them change. So how is that happening? How is this happening? And why does this lie detector work? How is it working? And you know. Yeah, but this. Yeah, but that. Yeah, but this and it took her so much time and I said just send me data.

[00:33:26]

I don't want to talk through it. I need to see the real data.

[00:33:29]

And she send me books, she'd say read this or here's an article in Psychology Today or whatever, you know. And so I was like, oh that's how the emitter worked or that's how that person was helped. There's just nothing but the placebo effect or, you know, be like things that you just can't explain. And I think that's part of the problem because you you brainwash yourself into believing that they had the solution. Right, when you could have done this in a session with a therapist.

[00:33:59]

Right. Or, you know, read an article or. Yeah.

[00:34:03]

And that, by the way, I think is one of the things that I really remember really admiring in twenty seventeen when I was looking at you guys because. And twenty eighteen, because I realized, oh, you guys started a battle, but you were still to use a computer term, still defrag in your own mind. Yes, still while in the battle and that's what we were struggling with, is we were in a in a battle to to hold these people accountable and put them in prison while completely screwed up.

[00:34:35]

I think when I think when I look at you guys, I was like, OK, so they can do it. Maybe we can do it, you know? So you don't understand how much without your knowledge, perhaps how much you did for us and I believe have done for a lot of people, because I now know it's not just our organization.

[00:34:54]

The people that will look at them, looked at looked at what you guys did. But it's a lot of people because I think we're having the experience and I and I and I believe and maybe I'm wrong, but I believe that, you know, if enough parents to have power. Are able to move things politically. I think it will crumble. I honestly believe that eventually these kinds of organs that they don't last forever.

[00:35:17]

Eventually I just look, I am I have so much respect, though, for for how long the battle has been for for you guys. And I don't know what the what the way is. And the only response, I guess, is to be consistent in, you know, what was the thing Berrima said sunlight is the best disinfectant.

[00:35:37]

Yes, that's right. In episode five, it's the best disinfectant, but it has to be applied again and again and again and again. And I mean, certainly what I've seen from you guys over the years that I've been watching as you guys are just relentless and it should be easy.

[00:35:53]

No, it isn't, because it's a small group.

[00:35:55]

Markets were small but mighty, and we never listen. There were people before us that took on the fight. They got to a certain point. And then at a certain point, they feel they're not getting anywhere. They give up. Then somebody else picks up that, you know, the torch has passed. So there were as many people before us and hopefully there'll be many people after us. But we have never really and I tell this to anybody who calls me an asshole, I always use this as an excuse, like, you know, I'm still in the fight, you know, I'm still in the fight.

[00:36:27]

So I actually have never left this toxic world of Scientologists. So, you know, I haven't actually left. Can I get a fucking break?

[00:36:35]

Yes. Yes. Only only one.

[00:36:40]

And only only when it gets me out of an argument or having to evade or the way waiting for my by the way, horrible attitude.

[00:36:46]

Yes. That's that's something as well.

[00:36:49]

It's so interesting to me, like the people that are not really doing much to fight or just just keep picking at the people that are.

[00:36:56]

Yeah, I can tell you how many. It's not a lot, but there's people that go like, well, you were in that thing. I said, yes, why do you not fight me? And I fight the tension there.

[00:37:06]

Well well, it's the same. There's a saying that says those who do do those who don't criticize and everybody has a fucking note. And I always tell people, if you can do it better than me and Mike, please fucking do. Exactly. I'd love to go off somewhere, get fatter than I already am.

[00:37:27]

And disappear, believe me, Mike has two young boys at home, soccer, soccer, things to do, boys to do. Feel free. Yeah, and that's honestly it's hard because you're like, can you join in on the fight? Love all that passion you're directing at me, directed at the right people. And these are people who are ex Scientologist who are criticizing me and my edit. It gets insane. But, you know, you're still in this toxic world.

[00:37:58]

But I know people want to know for people who haven't seen the valley yet and I don't want you to give too much away because I want people to watch it from beginning to end, as we're going to. But you were talking about how Bonnie started to show you these articles and you started to talk to to Keith. And, you know, you had to wait. How long do you think? Because for me, it took you six years.

[00:38:20]

It took six years. Right. It wasn't like people always ask me that what was the thing, but what was the thing like?

[00:38:28]

It wasn't just one thing as Martha, the thing that actually made me leave, it wasn't that extraordinary in comparison to what had had happened prior that I should say.

[00:38:40]

But but what was it more how long did it take from you seeing these things that Bonnie was showing you to actually saying not only are we leaving, but now we're taking action because you could have just walked away. All of you could have just walked away.

[00:38:55]

Yeah, and that wasn't thought, by the way. Of course. Yeah. Look, December 2015, I'd hit a I'd hit a point. I was like, this organization is so fucked up, I'm going to write them along. I was going to write my Jerry Maguire letter right now. Everything needs to change. You know, I wrote the song for Scientologists.

[00:39:13]

Just so you know, Mark, we don't I don't know if I appreciate that reference. Sorry, sorry. You're right. But listening to the story. But I was going to write that letter. I was going to write this letter that was going to make everybody go like, oh, yeah, yeah.

[00:39:25]

He's got some good points. And I wrote this these long.