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On September 17th, 2009, 24 year old MIT Chris Richardson disappeared without a trace in the woods near Malibu, California, and was never seen alive again.


I'm Catherine Townsend, host of the podcast Houngan. We're going to try to find out what really happened to my Chris Richardson School of Humans and I heart radio present Helen Gougne, season three. Listen to and gone on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is partnering with I Heart Radio to bring you a brand new podcast series induction, but this show brings you back to the induction ceremony for some of the most powerful moments on the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame stage featuring inspiring speeches direct from the artist themselves, Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction vault available now with new episodes every Friday on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.


Hello, everyone, this is Leah Remini, and I'm here, of course, with Mike Rinder and this is Scientology Fair Game, and we are joined by somebody that I love. But I know you do, Mike, but also appear on the aftermath. Claire Headley, Highclere, thank you so much for having me on.


Hello. Oh, my God, Claire, you're like you've were on the aftermath a few times. And you and you're one of those people that we've called over the years, like, hey, Claire, could you do us a favor?


Hey, Claire, can you do me a favor? Hey, Claire.


And then I'm happy to every time. And we thank you. And we thank you.


And then what I what I what I text or email your husband, Mark Hadley, and I don't get an answer. I go, Hey, Claire, can you do me a favor.


It's okay.


The whole world operates in that. And with with respect to the head, Liz, everybody does it that way. Right.


Exactly. Call Claire that that should be called Claire. Everybody call Claire.


Anyway, Mike, why don't you give us a brief history of brief history of how you know Claire and what Claire was in the Sea Org and all that.


Right. I know Claire doesn't have to do it.


Claire herself. It's all good.


I know Cliff from working together with her extensively at the international headquarter base of Scientology near Hemet in Riverside County, California. And Claire was senior Sea Org member, which I assume everybody by now knows. But Sea Org members are full time Scientology employees who dedicate this life and every life for a billion years to achieving the objectives of Scientology.


Claire was a senior executive in Religious Technology Center, which is the organization that is run by David Miscavige.


So it's like and I show little it's like his special little organization with only the special people, only the special people.


Lots of white young women.


Yes. His own personal army. Right. Right. Yes, right. And and I'm not being facetious when I say that the selection of people into Religious Technology Center was in part based on how they looked. And his ideal was young, good looking white women. Uh huh. Right. Well. Yep, it's accurate, in fact, within the first two months of me being in the Religious Technology Center, which started in March 96, there was a photo taken of all of us.


We were RTC reps in training. There was 20 of us. One male.


Right. Yes. Yeah.


And that's true for Scientology. I mean, Scientology is predominantly white. I mean, that's but even more so around David Miscavige is what you're saying is that, yes, he had a type and he cast that type. Correct.


One other thing I want to add before we go on with Claire is in the sea organization.


You have a lot of people who have any compassion or care for others beaten out of them.


It is not a trait that is seen to be of any value in the sea organization if you have no empathy, if you are ruthless.


Tough and mean, that is a big positive. Well, some people go into that with a gusto and become complete assholes. Claire is one of the few people who never did. Claire, despite her very lofty position, was always the nicest, kindest, most caring person.


She looked after me so many times when I was in deep trouble because I was usually in deep trouble, that it it's a lasting memory that I always have of Claire, of her kindness and her willingness to do things that were not acceptable that other people wouldn't do to take care of someone in the CIA and the Scientology mentality in general, right?


Yeah, absolutely. It's this it it is a not an unfair generality to say that Scientologists in general are not compassionate people because compassion is seen as a weakness. It is not being strong, self-determined, certain of yourself. It is seen as a weak trait and particularly in the Sea Org members right now.


Claire, how long were you in the Sea Org? Yes.


Well, thank you, Mike, for for what you said there. That's very kind. I was in the Sea Org for 14 years from 1991 until 2005.


And then and then your husband, you both left and you've told your story on our program. And it's an amazing story. And also, Mark, your husband wrote a book called Blown forGood, which tells your story as well. Yes. But you were a celebrated, like Mike is saying, suer.


Remember, despite your being kind and and what and once you left, what immediately began was fair game against you and Mark Khurram. So you both went from celebrated to org members to suit to let you speak.


Yeah. So we we both escaped in January 2005 and almost immediately we were became the, you know, the the worst enemies of Scientology. Ironically, within a few weeks of us leaving. Well, the day after I made my escape, my entire family were called into the Scientology base in L.A. and informed they could not ever talk to me again. The day after I left, a week after I left, I emailed Oza, Kirsten Catano. What is that?


So Oza Office of Special Affairs.


That's the the the the division of Scientology that oversees enemies, legal threats. That's who runs the private investigators that harass ex members, as we know from the history of it. So I knew that I would need to reach out to Oza to to say so. And so I said, hey, I'm I'm I've left. I have escaped. I'm not coming back. And Catano because she's Kurstin. Catano, yes.


And she left Ticketfly dealing with Sea Org members who escape. Right.


And these people are hand-picked, like you said, from David Miscavige, right? Yes, absolutely.


And if you make the mistake of making a comment about that is in any way favorable about anybody who has ever left your history in that world?


Well, not that you get kicked out, but you get put into, like, the decks right where you get punished. Yeah.


It's not like you become a gardener or a dishwasher or something like that in the sewer.


Yes. Yes. I mean, that sounds lovely in comparison to what you two were doing. But go ahead.


I know I had the same conversation. Please, please just put me on grounds. Let me mohssen lawns like. Yeah. Because I can't take this anymore. Yeah, yeah, yeah.


OK, so no because White says it, it sounds like it's, it's disparaging towards people who are gardeners and dishwashers because Mike, as you know, still has some sea organum.


But but I did want to comment while you say that because you made me think of it. And so, you know, always over the years, the amount of times we were told, you know, if you ever leave, you're going to die of people who leave will be they're drug addicts. They they're involved with prostitutes. And if you leave, all you're going to do is flip burgers for the rest of your life. And so but at the end of the 14 years, I was like, you know what, I would love to flip burgers for the rest of my life.


That would blow away this life. Right, right, right. Well, you just got to pizzas. I know. And it was amazing. I was thrilled to be able to deliver lunch to some happy people. So.


So you went to Catano. You went to Woodsboro, Kristen, Kirsten, Kirsten.


Yes. And I emailed her and I said, listen, I've left. I'm not coming back. But I would like to be able to have contact with my family. What can I do? And Greg will have to answer that email. Not in her. And Greg will here was number two guy in RTC at that time. So he was David Miscavige, his deputy.


And he the one guy in the photo. You he the one guy in the know. OK, so then you light, you light clearly.


Well I said RTC reps your not that it was all of RTC. Yes. But he is, he has been the face of RTC, he has spoken at some public events and so he answered and he said, OK, listen, hold on, it's all on hold. I'll get back to you. So I said, OK, great, maybe I'll have a hope of speaking to my family ever again. But I didn't hear anything for months and I found out later was because Greg had been busted and had been doing heavy manual labor for two months.


So then so this was in January. Then come April, I got a call from Warren McShane, who is the he is also Religious Technology Center. He's the guy that that oversees all legal everything, all legal matters. He runs Oza from RTC and he is his his his biggest use to David Miscavige is that he is a professional liar.


OK, so he calls me and says, listen. Come back and do the RPF and you won't be declared. We have to explain what the RPF is.


Yes. So the rehabilitation project force is the punishment that is administered to Ceric members when they consistently and continually break all the rules. And it is the closest comparison I can make as it's like prison camp, like when you're put in the RPF, the rehabilitation project force, you wear black all day, every day. You're not allowed to talk to anybody outside of that unit and that program. You do eight hours a day of heavy manual labor. You run everywhere and then five hours a day you're interrogated for your evil purposes.


And this can this generally this program generally lasts five to can be up to 10 years. And the the the end product of that is that you are reprogrammed as a as a person.


Right. So it's supposed to fix you. Yes. But so you were told come back, do the RPF and we'll let you speak to your family. Yes.


And this is after. Yes. No, this was after I'd been gone for four months. Right. We had leased an apartment.


I had a job. I had slept for the first time in three years. Right. I was eating normal food, all of this.


So obviously, it was absolutely not an option. Right. And so so we were declared suppressive people. And given our goldenrod issue, which is a sheet of paper that says that you're a suppressive person and what crimes you've committed against Scientology, I've actually.


They actually gave you that. They did. Oh, Mike, we should see that that was back in the old days, man. Right.


Because they don't do that anymore, because they now they know that people are going to post it on the Internet.


Yes. Funny story. Funny story about that, sir. Mark went out to L.A. in May. So, again, this is now four or five months after we left and he rented a U-Haul truck and they the Scientology security guards loaded up all of our belongings into this truck. And and then they we had a rendezvous.


So Mark met the security guard would with the truck loaded with all of our belongings. And at that meeting, the security guard handed Mark an envelope. And so Mark took it and was like, OK. And the security guard says, well, you need to read that. And Mark opened the envelope and looked at the speed of classes like whatever he's like, no, you need to read it. I have to tell them what? Your responses. Oh, my God.


They actually just wanted a response. Yes, I wanted to cry. Yes, yes. Beg beg to come back.


Please don't do this.


So didn't do it or did he just tell them to go fuck himself. He was like, whatever. I'm not going to read that right now. Right. Right. That's funny. Yes.


All right. So the fair game began. The websites began. The hate websites. You and Mark were the worst type of people ever.


And and even even though you were in the sewer for 14 years and your celebrated story, remember, suddenly once you left, Fair Game begins.




And I think the two main reasons that we became such huge targets for them is, number one, Marc started looking on the Internet, you know, right at what was posted about Scientology. He watched the South Park show. And honestly, at that point, I you know, honestly, I was scared.


I was like, oh, great. There were my chances of ever talking to my family ever again. Right. Because, you know, things are forbidden.


Looking at the Internet, watching anything that is not Scientology that Scientology put out is is. So it's hard because even though you've left and you're living in an apartment and you're living in the free world, you still are like, I'm not going to cross certain lines. Scientology rules, which is speaking out, which is going on the Internet, watching things like going clear, watching the aftermath, watching a South Park, reading any book that or article disparaging Scientology.


So it's it's funny that, you know, we all kind of dealt with the same thing, like, we will do this. What?


We won't do that. Yeah, that's the thing. Yeah. Their programming is so deep. Yeah. That especially and for me, I was born into it and had been in the sea organization from the age of four. Really. Yeah.


So for me it wasn't that I still believed it was that I was reeling and trying my best to recover. Right. At the same token I knew, you know, I respected Mark is my husband. I love him and I, I. So I just thought, you know, I'm going to allow him the space to do whatever he needs to do, just as he's doing the same to me. Right. So I didn't ask him to stop or anything, but still, it scared the crap out of me.


And so he he was reading these things and and he just came across things that were just not accurate. You know, there was some truth in them, but the stories that had been posted were, you know, were small pieces. So Mark started posting anonymously under the name, blown for good. That's where the name of his book comes from, right. When he started doing that.


And he was simply an only approaching it from. Listen, this is what actually happened. These are the stories of what was actually going on at the base.


And there was a of an infamous a circumstance known known on the base as musical chairs, where David Miscavige played a game of musical chairs with all the executives.


But it was the most disturbing. Yeah, thing I've I've ever heard was abusive.


It was it was very. And this is and this was explained in going clear, right?


Yes. Yeah, OK. Yes. Yeah, that's right. It ended up with physical fights. Miscavige carefully orchestrated it so that no husband or wife would ever be together.


And the end result was the determination of where all these executives would be shipped off to the far, far reaches of the worst Scientology organizations as the the absolute worst punishment he could dream up. So Mark posted about that and he started posting about some current events that he was aware of and that he and I both were aware of. And that really, really made Miscavige angry. Right. So that was one of one circumstance. And then this concurrent to that, Mark and I both started connecting with people who had left.


And in San Antonio, which is another.


Yes, another no, no. They don't want anyone connecting. They want everyone to be isolated, no one to talk to anybody. And so starting in December of that year, we had our first CP party where about 30, 30 people came to our house and we had a Christmas party. And it was amazing to me.


Everybody stands for suppressive person. That is the enemies or perceived enemies of Scientology. Good. So, yes, as a party.


Yes. And so we found out later that there had been two OZO spies sent in to that party to report on who was there. And and shortly thereafter, I started noticing this this older gentleman would walk past our house in Burbank every day at the same time. And he had one of those massive radios that no one uses anymore. Yeah. And that's what even struck me. But he would always cross the street walking at our house. So we had these big windows so he would see in and see who was there.


Anyway, it was one thing after another.


But yes, they started doing special trash collections. They started they were listening in on our calls. In fact, when Mike left, we we learned more details about that. And it was it was outrageous how specific the information was that they were gathering like.


And now you're talking about, like, tapping your phones and stuff. This is illegal. So would you ever go to the authorities with any of this information?


We went to the FBI with all of that information, yes. And they were like, can I help you?


Yes. They said, well, you know, the problem is, at least as I see it, Scientology. I think banks on the fact that it's going to take someone a few years before they get their head straight. No, no.


Understand everything that went on and have a clear view of the abuse and everything that we've lived through. Yeah. And so that by the time I went to we went to the FBI was five years after we'd left. Right. And they took in all the information, but their statement was, we need something more recent like. Right. Yes. Yeah, I get it. Same old.


Same old. Right. Yes. Yes, sir. Yeah. So I was going to say so shortly after my son was born, my oldest son. He was born in February 2006 and I think it was April 2006.


Kirsten Catano called me and said, we need a. Get you going on your way to E steps, so what that is, is the policies by L. Ron Hubbard about suppressive people have steps A to E, and if you ever want to resolve your status as a suppressive person and for me, what that would mean is if I ever wanted to talk to my family again, then I would be required to go through that.


Those steps and those steps include a confession of all your so-called crimes. Right. Payment of your bills. And in my case, Mark and I had a bill from them. Again, we have the bill and our total was one hundred and fifty thousand dollars now.


So just everybody knows when you join the Sea Org part of the payoff for living the way you're living, which is you live communally, and if you're not lucky enough to get married, you live in a motel room basically with six to eight other people.


If you're married, you usually live in a motel room with no television, no telephone, just a bed and usually a dresser. Right, some personal items, but not no car, no car, so and you get and you work from 7:00 in the morning, sometimes all the way through the next day.


But on a good day, it's 7:00 in the morning till 1:00 in the morning. Am I wrong, guys?


Now, you're exactly right. You don't see a family. Yeah, that's a good day. You don't see a great family.


You don't see your family if they're not in the sea or you might pass them if they're in a zoo or in the hallway or somewhere in a parking lot.


And it's like, hey, and if your Scientology family, you'll never see them like not. And that's not it. Just because Scientology family feels like, you know, you're in the military and you're if you've dedicated your life to something very important, they don't want to bother you. You rarely see them on even on holidays. And so for this, you guys get fifty dollars at best a week at best.


Yes. Well, technically it was 46 after taxes, but. Yes, right. And you don't. Right, exactly.


And like what but what was the figure of like somebody said, their figure like after being in the sewer for how many years, like they left with like a pension or what are like of two thousand dollars.


It was like insane. It was like for being in the sewer for 30 years.


My Social Security adds up to I think mine was 2000 dollars after 27 years or 31 years or however long it was of service.


I mean, basically and this is of service, everybody. This is not a job. This is 365 days a year with no vacation. They don't send you on your vacations. You don't get to just lounge around on Saturday and Sundays. You don't get half days. You don't get none of that. I mean, it's seven days a week.


Yes. So when you leave. Oh, and for that, for the forty six dollars, the other bonus of being in the Seaburg is that you're supposed to get your Scientology services for free and that is mandatory courses for your job that you don't ask to do.


It's mandatory security checking that you don't ask to do what Scientology is mandatory, whether you're a Sea Org member or parishioner.


And then they have the balls to say, well, we gave you all the Scientology for free, so now you got to pay us back. Yes. You love to see her. So you're exactly right. Your bill was one hundred thousand dollars.


Yeah, 100 and 150 for Mark and I both. And and included on mine was the fact that for my job I was required to do the OT levels.


So unlike most Sea Org members, was a confidential levels, the upper confidential levels of Scientology. Everybody, go ahead.


Yes. So I was on OT Level five at the time that I left, and that's why mine was significantly higher than marks. But between the two of us, it was 150000 dollars. Right?


So you never even asked to do your eighty steps. You were not planning on going back. So they had some balls to even suggest it. But that Scientology. So you decided, like, you guys were like, we're out. We're just we're there's we're not coming back. We're not paying this bill.


We're done. Yes, that's right. So it's called a freeloader Bill. And as Lia mentioned, you as a Sea Org member, you are required to do two and a half hours a day of Scientology training and or counseling. They're auditing. That's their their Scientology version of therapy, if you will. So two and a half hours a day for fifteen years. And every service that I that I took and by the way, this also includes any time that Mark or I were in trouble and required interrogation there or SEC checking all of those things were billed for when we left, because there the policy is well, it's all free unless you leave.


And if you leave, then now you're a freeloader and now you're going to be required to pay for all of those things. Whenever it is that you make your escape. And so it's very it's it's a standard step that gets taken any time somebody either escapes or tries to root out, follow the steps and leave according to how they would like you to leave, which is not escaping. When you're declared a suppressive person, you're issued this freeloader bill, which again, in our case was a total of one hundred and fifty thousand dollars.


And if I ever wanted to talk to my family again following their rules, one of the steps would be I would have to pay that off.


She'd have to be basically she'd have to be in good standing.


I was a very special category of person when I left, so I never got a freeloaders bill. I, I got a lot of other things, but not a free lunch bill.


Like a lot of people following me, cameras set up, you know, 24 hour a day surveillance, you know, six cars at a time, followed to England, followed to Australia, filmed everywhere I went, all that sort of stuff.


But no, I didn't get a freeloaders bill.


I guess I was a good sport. I was in a sewer for about a year when I was 14 to 15. And I got to freeloaders bill of like forty thousand dollars. And I paid it because I wanted to remain in Scientology.


I had to, you know, I had nowhere to go. So I had to my mother was a Scientologist. And I had to pay that freeloaders debt to get back into Scientology as a parishioner, so I had to pay that. So that's why we all had jobs when we were 15 years old.


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So, Claire, I just wanted to talk about lying in Scientology and particularly in the Sea Org and the reason for wanting to talk to you about this, there were a number of them. But first of all, the statement that Hubbard makes about suppressive people like you and me is that they may be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed without any consequence to Scientologists doing so.


And it is important for people to understand that Scientologists and especially Sea Org members will lie.


They will lie to law enforcement. They will lie under oath. They will lie in courts. They will lie when giving witness testimony. And every law enforcement agency or prosecutor needs to understand who and what they are dealing with when they are dealing with Scientologists. Right.


That's an interesting that's an interesting sorry, Mike. That's an interesting point. Right. Because you're you're saying you're reading from the policy, right?


You're reading from the Fair Game Suppressive series. Right. How to deal with Suppressive. And this is all part of the fair game policies and directives. Now, what you're saying is that Scientologists, right?


You just said it eloquently that they'll lie to fair game.


Anyone who leaves.


And what you're saying is Claire was doing just that while in the sea to protect Scientology, as you did, Mike, as I did, as we all did, as is happening now.


Right to it's happening now to Claire, even though she's been out of the Sea Org for how many years now and has beautiful sons and you have a family might like it just it doesn't it won't end. Fair game will not end. It'll just continue on until somebody stops it.


But I see what you're doing because I was like, how does this connect to declare? Because, like, you know, we all see Claire is like it's Claire or like you.


Claire is like the nicest varus, like, you know, she's the one you want to call when you think you've done something wrong.




And you're like, Claire, let me just tell you the situation, you know, like my mother. OK, so the other day. Right.


And you know that there's going to be like, well, maybe you reacted unfairly to her and, you know, like she's the person.


So it's funny, right, to connect Claire with like Claire was the person inside Scientology willing to live with.


And so it's it's just so funny to connect those dots because it just seems so odd now when you're out, because it was so justified when you were in to do something like this.


And it's so it wouldn't even cross the minds of law enforcement if they called on a person like Claire. Here comes, as you know, sweet woman who seems fair and has her head on straight and can speak well. And it speaks from her heart that she this woman would be lying to me.


But that's exactly what happens. And that's exactly what's going to happen.


Yes. Yes. Yeah.


And I think I think it would be good also to talk about the mechanics of that. And to me, there's three major components that it's important to understand from a Scientologists mindset that completely justify. They just make it. Not even they don't even blink. They would do it in a heartbeat. One of those is the acceptable truth that I think you were starting to talk about, Mike, an acceptable truth. So the policy by L. Ron Hubbard is says that whatever you have to say, I think it even references a white lie.


If it's to protect the Scientology organization, you alter the truth to a version that is acceptable to Scientology, meaning that the version what the version of and statements we're not going to call it a lie because that, well, nobody lies. But let's come up with a new term for a lie. And that is an acceptable truth. And that means that that statement will not harm Scientology. That's one. OK, number two is a sure story. So in the Sea Organization and Mike, you would cover the the history of that much better than I would.


But the the summary version and then I'll let Mike add to that is that you come up with a version of events, again, the short story that will maintain good public relations with authorities, police.


Government, anyone asking questions that will shed no negative light on Scientology, even if the actual events would be prosecuted and you say sure story that's s h o r e write short stories.


So this is a ship reference, right, Mike? Yes.


It came from originally when L. Ron Hubbard was on board a ship. That's why it's called the Sea Organization, because it was at sea and Hubbard was on a ship with a bunch of people and he didn't want anybody to know what that this was even Scientology. So he invented a story to tell people on the shore about what this ship was doing. It was not Scientology. It was the Operation and Transport Corporation, a business management consulting outfit from the United States.


And this was intended to protect.


Him protect Scientology and prevent anybody from investigating what was going on, and there are numerous short stories that have been created over the years, but for particular things we heard, Leo, when we were talking about Clearwater on the aftermath, that there was a whole story, that this was the United Churches of Florida had moved into town and bought the Fort Harrison Hotel. It was not Scientology in that was the United Church of Florida.


And that was a short story made up your story.


And so what's the third thing? The third thing is the greatest good. The concept of anything that you do needs to be for the greatest good, for the greatest number of dynamics. And in Scientology, the theory is there that every person has eight dynamics, starting with yourself, your relationship, your husband, your family.


Yeah, it's like eight departments of your life. That could be just kind of, you know, put into compartments, I guess, right?


Yes. Every area of life. Yeah. Yes.


Except that in Scientology that becomes perverted to whatever you have to do to protect the group. You do it. No questions asked. Right.


Same same exact same concept as is used by Voldemort in the Harry Potter stories. The for the greater good. It references that in it. You know, the bad guys say, oh, it's for the greater good. Well, it's the same in Scientology. It's whatever you have to do to protect Scientology's reputation, its assets, its organization, you you do it. And if that means you have to lie. Yeah. An acceptable truth, you do it right.


Got it.


OK, absolutely. Let's go through some of these these short stories and some of these things.


Yeah. And I was just going to say, Leah, I wrote a pretty extensive article about this exact subject called Why Do Scientologists Lie on My Blog? And it lays it all out in great detail.


Right, because I think the authorities well, it'd be great if the authorities would go to your blog, Mike, and read that as well as some judges.


Go ahead. Yes. In any event, there is a few instances that I want to talk to Claire about, which is a story that happened to the daughter of a prominent Scientology lawyer, Rick Moxon. Right. His daughter, Stacey, was at the gold base. She was a young woman. She was oddly, she was posted as an electrician. Was she an electrician? Well, she sort of learned on the job, sort of.


She was not a licensed electrician. However, by the code of a senior member, she was doing any job assigned, no matter how hard, and making it go right. And that's the policy of Scientology that made her capable of putting her life at risk, operating as an electrician when she had no formal training to do so.


Right. OK, so go ahead. OK, so I'll let Claire tell the story that she told on the aftermath finale.


So Stacey Moxon came to the to work at the base in Hemet, I believe she was 18 at the time that she arrived. She had just gotten married and her so she was Stacey Meyer and she was married to Derek Meyer, who was still in L.A. So she was separated from her husband. Fast forward a year and a half, two years later. So now she was, I think, 19, and this was in the year 2000. And Stacey on a Saturday night, had requested authorization to go down to Los Angeles on Sunday morning, which was, you know, according to the schedule, we were supposed to have three hours off on Sunday morning to do laundry and clean our rooms.


And whether we had that time or not is another story altogether. But technically, that was time, personal time, the only personal time we had.


So Stacey had requested all of you personal time is time to clean your room and do your laundry.


Right? Personal time to me. Honey, can you watch your daughter? I would just love to do our laundry. Honey, honey, you know, for Mother's Day, if you could just watch if you could just let me add this laundry and this house. If I could just clean it.


That's all I want. That's all I want. Right. Your dream time.


I could work the rest of the eighteen hours, please. Oh, sorry, how true that is. You hit the nail on the head. Yes, exactly right. Right. It's good. It does show you a snapshot of the mindset of a you remember it really well.


You still have it, Claire.


You're like I mean, whether we got that or not, you know, whether we win by taking, you know, like three hours. What? We didn't get it. Yes. So Saturday night thought Stacey is trying to get written approval, which she has to do to be able to leave the property. She's not allowed to leave the property unless she's had five people sign off to allow her to go to L.A. on Sunday morning to visit her father and her husband.


Mm hmm. And so that had to be approved even all the way up to Religious Technology Center, someone from RTC had to sign off on that as well, not just her immediate boss. Long story short, it was denied she was not allowed to go. The next morning, while most people were cleaning their rooms and doing their laundry, Stacey came into the property at 10 a.m. She went up to a high voltage electrical chamber and she hauled herself into it and committed suicide.


19 years old. Now, the reports say otherwise, yes, right. Yes, I know, I still got you, I know, I know. So now take me through this, Claire, because nine one one wasn't called so well from the front, from the base. Yes, and to my knowledge, no, when this happened, though, when Stacey committed suicide, it shut down the power on the entire property. Right. And that called that was how it was alerted to.


And I think when that happened, the local power company gets notified because obviously it's a it's a major electrical incident. And that is what resulted in the authorities coming to the property, to my knowledge.


Right. So just to add in, though, so we're talking about the short story aspect of this. When this happened, Warren McShane, who was the legal guy in RTC religious technologies and still is, right?


Yes, he still is. He immediately was called to the scene. Right. I know he saw the scene because he personally told me what he saw. He then came up with the short story, which was that Stacy was trying to rescue a squirrel out of the this high voltage electrical chamber. And to Mike's point, Stacy had worked as an electrician. She was more aware than I was of the danger of that high voltage chamber, right? Absolutely.


She knew the danger. So the short story developed was that Stacy was on the property, went to this chamber, tried to rescue this girl. And it was a terrible accident.


And this is what you're this is what you're being told. So what what tell me what happens, Mike and Claire, in a situation like this where, you know, something went down that will possibly be investigated and it will not look good for Scientology. Not only that, this girl was not an electrician. She had no license. She had no business doing that as well.


Everybody who is currently on that base today doing jobs in every Seaburg organization across the planet is somebody doing something that they have no license to be doing. Correct. Correct. Yes. Yes. To add to that. So initially, this was an investigation by the authorities. And so the way that Warren orchestrated this is that every single person who spoke to the authorities before they spoke to the authorities was carefully coached on exactly what to say. Because I know.


I know from since leaving. The authorities know to look for discrepancies in a story and when there's discrepancies, that's the red flag, that then they go up, somebody's lying and they will grab on to that. Well, in this case, everybody's story exactly matched because they were coached on exactly what to say, even down to drilling, like, OK, Mike, let's let's work on this. So what was Stacy doing? What are you going to say?


OK. Why was she there? What was her you know, all the all the possible questions that they might ask. Their answers are exactly scripted to match. That's the mechanics of a short story, is every single person is saying the exact same line.


So you're drilled by Warren McShane on how to deal with the authorities so they'll just go away.


And is that what happened? Clear. They came to the base to investigate. You all were drilled. You were told what to say, and that's it. They just said, OK, thank you and run away.


Yes, that is what happened. I didn't talk to the authorities personally. However, I was assigned to counsel Warren McShane and a very close friend of Stacy's mom and, you know, address from a counseling Scientology counseling perspective the the upset and the grief associated with this right now.


They said it wasn't that it was an accident, but there was more to the story that you that you spoke about, Claire, about a note about her room. I mean, there was other details to this. Yes, there was.


There was a note. And her closest friend said that she had seen the note and said that she was very worried that Stacy was going to do something like this.


And you heard that it was destroyed. That's right. And who did you hear that from? Warren McShane.


He said to you, he said that there was a note and we got rid of it. Yes. Now, you've told the authorities this clear?


Obviously. Yes. And and what's the response to this?


Again, they I mean, they take down they took down all the information, but the response was they need something more recent.


And since I've been gone since 2005, I am unable to supply anything more recent. And just to add something, Leah, because you you ask what are the authorities say?


And, you know, we have all experienced this with, well, there's this problem, there is that problem, et cetera, et cetera. But there was a summary produced by the FBI in a Freedom of Information Act document of their investigation into a lot of these matters. And I'm just going to quote something that was in that summary. Please do.


This is from the FBI 2009 summary. Right? Right. Yeah. All Sea Org members are instructed how to lie to outsiders and authorities who might inquire of the living and working conditions.


Right. And that's that's pretty significant. I mean, maybe the Department of Justice didn't go forward with the prosecution based on their investigation, but the agents that did the investigating certainly had a lot of conclusions. This isn't the only one that they drew from having interviewed a lot of people and gathered a lot of evidence about what happens at the gold base.


Right. Like the the Department of Justice, the sentencing, the sentencing memorandum.


Thank you. When was that, Mike?


That was from the Department of Justice. And this is when 11 Scientologists were were found guilty of infiltrating the United States government. Right. And obstructing justice.


And they said a similar thing. They said these defendants were willing to frame their critics to the point of giving false testimony under oath against them and having them arrested and indicted speaks Legion for their disdain for the rule of law.


And it goes on. Indeed, they arrogantly placed themselves above the law, meting out their personal brand of punishment to those, quote, guilty, unquote, of opposing their selfish aims.




And this is over and over again. And this will continue on, which is why we're giving these warnings over and over to judges, to the local law enforcement so they realize what in the hell they're dealing with anyway.


The story is is, of course, I think important enough to tell. But the fact that we're following it up with these statements by the FBI and the DOJ is important in moving forward. And what was the other story, Mike, that you wanted to talk about?


Oh, I just wanted to just sort of demonstrate how pervasive this thinking is with with Kelly's personal story about breaking her leg.


And I think everybody who has had an injury on the property, the gold based property, has and can tell exactly the same story, like, yes, I broke my leg on my motorcycle, to which Claver members. Yes. But it wasn't quite like Claires. And I just thought that that the idea that it is so ingrained in Sea Org members of just lying to protect whatever they think they need to protect, which is the organization or any person in it, or the reputation or whatever is is like it.


It's so ingrained.


It's like even when you're not thinking straight, you lie.


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Wow. He ruins everything. So, Mike, why don't you go through some of these things lying in Miscavige is 70 million dollar bunker, why don't you guys go through this list? Because it's pretty extensive. Well, that list let me just finish with Clare because, OK, go ahead, Clare, you broke your leg. Yes. And they didn't call nine one one.


And so and some security person then came and put you in some form of splint or something for your broken leg.


Yes. So what happened is it was June or actually July 1999, and I'd had two hours of sleep. And in the middle of the day on a Saturday, I was driving a motorcycle and I had a very bad crash. The impact broke my left leg.


Both bones clean through and the impact also broke my right shoulder. So I landed on the ground. Security were called and Kevin Catano, Kirsten Katanas husband was the security guard that responded. He came out on his motorcycle. So we don't call an ambulance.


No. The reason is that the policy yes. That's the policy on the base. And the reason given was that David Miscavige was on the property at the time this accident happened. So 9/11 was not to be called. No ambulance was to be called.


So what does David Miscavige have to having to like having been on the property have to do with that?


Well, no authorities can come on the property when he's there because it would expose him, jeopardize his security. Yes, we'd be out security. OK, yes. So Kevin Catano came to the accident where I was laying on the ground with my foot angled off completely loose, and he put a splint on my leg and then they lifted me up and they had these small little red Honda Honda cars that the medical office medical staff used.


Now, do they have licenses or do they have any kind of his. No, no, they did not. They were not authorized to be performing any medical anything. OK of it. Definitely not. Emergency response personnel. Go ahead. Yes. Yeah. So they lifted me up with this splint on my leg, crammed me into the little red Honda and drove me to the Hemet Hospital, which was the closest hospital to the property.


So I was about a 30, 20, 30 minute drive. And by the time we arrived at the hospital, I was in shock, and so we pulled up to the emergency room, they immediately the emergency room personnel took one look at me. They immediately called out a what's it called? A gurney gurney. I got loaded onto the gurney, taken into the E.R. and for the next six hours, they were doing testing because it turns out that the splint that was put on my leg was the wrong kind of splint.


And it was because of that a very likely possibility that I would have ended up losing my foot.


The the E.R. personnel were livid. And they so they came to me laying in the gurney and said, who did this to you? And I I was in shock and I didn't know what to say. Of course I knew who did it. To me, it was Kevin Goodenow. And I had just looked at them and I said, I don't know. Right.


Even in that moment, you were. Yes.


Even in that moment, about to lose my foot from this terrible accident. And and I didn't. And anyway. Yeah, yeah.


Wow. And you never did tell the truth and. No, I didn't. Right? Yeah.


I mean, luckily you recovered and you just went right back to work, right? Yeah. Actually, I'm sure you were penalized for that accident, weren't you? I mean, I'm saying that without even knowing the story.


Yes, I was I was labeled as a potential trouble source. Right. Which because I had an accident, of course, if you have an accident or any kind of illness in Scientology, it means you must be connected to someone who has ill intentions towards Scientology. Right. And so I was I had to go through many steps and it took me two years to be able to walk normally again.


But you were punished for getting into an accident because that was your fault. OK, yeah. OK.


Anything else, Mike, do we need to cover with Claire? Sorry.


Well, just one other thing that I wanted to mention, and we brought it up before, but Warren McShane is the president of the Religious Technology Center to this day.


He is the person who is sent to testify on behalf of Religious Technology Center or Scientology, and in particular was sent to testify on behalf of David Miscavige. So David Miscavige himself does not have to testify. I see Warren McShane. David Miscavige told me personally that the reason that Warren McShane was on that position and remained on that position was solely because he was such a good liar that he was absolutely useless at anything and everything except lying. Wow.


And this is not just me that is saying this, because I know Cliff, I heard that from Miscavige, too.


And our old friend, Marty Rathbun. Marty Rathbun, who used to be the boss of Warren McShane, wrote a posting on his blog that still there that says Miscavige told me on several occasions that there was one reason and one reason alone. The Warren McShane remained in RTC after the 1987 takeover.


That is, Warren is such a good liar, who else is going to handle OTC depositions and declarations?


Miscavige told McShane to his face that if it weren't for his lying abilities, he'd be busted to gold to do most hard labor for the rest of his life.


This is the epitome of how Scientology views dealing with the legal system.


Law enforcement prosecutions and clear can can chime in with the same stories about Warren McShane that she's personally heard from Miscavige.


Go ahead.


Yes. So, again, on many instances, David Miscavige said that Warren, his special skill was professional. He's a professional liar. And in fact, when during our lawsuit, there was a day that I on one of the days of deposition where I was in deposition with Scientology's lawyers, Warren McShane was present.


And it was that was that's so uncomfortable, clear. And it was this is a guy who I've seen lie.


He's told me he's lied. I was just like counselor and Scientology senior to him.


Yes. I think, honestly, the only reason he was there was as an attempt to intimidate me. And I walked in. They looked him in the eye and said, hi, Warren. Long time no see, and he just looked down and didn't answer. But there's one other example, I think, of a story that just might help answer some of the out, you know, the general public's questions, because it struck me when it happened and I understood it when I saw it, but nobody else did.


OK, so there was the Anderson Cooper history of violence to the five part series.


Yes. Yes, right.


And during one of those episodes, they had all of the ex-wives there.


And by the way, we should say people should really look that up. If you had seen Anderson Cooper's five part series on Scientology, what was it called again? And you just said it's history of violence and violence. It is.


You should watch every minute of it because it is so shocking. Yes. Yes. So they had the wives on the wives of all of these suppressive people that left. So that was Mike Reinders ex-wife, Marty Rathbun, Zuks wife, Jeff Hawkins, Jakobsson Hawkins ex-wife and Tarbox and Tom Dave, oxer ex-wife.


Yes. And so those four women gave testimony and they all said the exact same statement, as I recall. Anyway, I haven't seen it in a while. They also rehearsed. I knew every inch of his body.


He never mentioned it.


I lived with the man now, which was so crazy, like like I used to pull my hair. I like I would just try to hurt myself. They were so frustrating. I wanted to have at the TV.


Yes. I mean, you it's a business transaction.


You know, I might be able to stomach you, but you're not paying each other's bills. You're not having children in the store. You're not raising children in the Sea Org. You're not going through what couples go through as your members. It's like if you see each other, you see each other. If you don't, you don't. Sometimes your members are transferred to to a different country. And God forbid you said, look, I miss you.


Your own husband or wife would write a report on you going, what the fuck is that? I'm in the sea. What are you talking about?


Like what? You were telling the story. Oh, so the inquiries.


Yeah. Oh, yes. I was just saying to me, that's that's a sure story that everybody I mean, the amount of people that were just commented at the time that that History of Violence show aired saying, who says that? I mean, it was jarring to everybody. Right.


And, you know, we should we should know that, like going forward. And we're talking about Scientology parishioners. We're talking about Scientology celebrities are told what the short stories are going to be and they are drilled. Like you said, this is what you're going to say if you're contacted by law enforcement, if you're called to a grand jury, if this if that if your deposition, here's what you're going to say. And that. So I don't want people to get the idea that it's just your members.


All Scientologists are taught to lie to protect Scientology, which is why you're seeing like these videos, these hate videos from people, family members and friends of they are willing and willing to say or do anything to protect Scientology. Yes. So, yeah.


Anything to add, Mike? No, Leah, I think we've we've I mean, we could talk about this no, but I just one episode. I just didn't know if the girls wanted us to go through this amazing list that's here, because I think it's a great whoever put this list together. I mean. Did you want to go over that? You want to go over that? Do you girls want to shut? Well, I just want to stay on warm McShane for a minute, because he seems to have an extensive history here and that's because he's the guy that's put out there is Leha understand and law enforcement out there understand there are a few people that you will hear from routinely over and over.


Warren McShane on behalf of RTC, Alan Cartwright and Lynn Fani on behalf of the Church of Scientology International.


And those people, the people who are routinely the people that interact with law enforcement, with courts, with judges, with prosecutors, and they are very, very skilled at lying to protect Scientology. We there is another document that we have here, which is a report that Warren McShane of from the Riverside County Sheriff's Office. And this actually came up in the context of Claires. She mentioned earlier about being involved in a lawsuit and Claire had filed a lawsuit and this document became relevant in that lawsuit.


And it's a story that doesn't really matter why it was, but it came to light in that context.


and Warren McShane, this was when a guy called John Brousseau, who was another person in RTC, had left the base on an unauthorized fashion.


He blew, in Scientology parlance, Cascais J.


He made his escape. He made his escape. And J.B. Was someone who was intimately connected to David Miscavige and Tom Cruise. He had built Tom Cruise's hangar.


He had had decked out his house. He had built a limo, a limousine for him, all his motorcycles, all sorts of stuff. So J.B. was like a big, important person in the world of Miscavige. So the minute they discovered that he had escaped, Warren McShane called the sheriff's office and filed a report with the Riverside County Sheriff's Office alleging that John Brousseau had stolen property, which was not true.


I see.


But in the course of alleging that and trying to convince the sheriff's department that he had done something heinous and terribly wrong, Warren McShane informed the sheriffs that, well, he got away because he had access to the Internet, unlike everybody else on the property, and he was able to escape because he had the right to go on and off the property without anybody else's authorisation.


So he was in and he escaped. So he is admitting that he got escape, that he that he had to escape.


He didn't say escape, but he said that the way the way that he was able to leave was that right.


And and these things are really significant, actually.


Warren McShane telling the truth for a change. All right.


About by mistake. By mistake. Right. By mistake. Yeah. Because he thought it was going to incriminate Rader.


End exactly that. Scientology denies over and over and over that you can leave of your own free will whenever you want to go, but here but here he is saying the only reason he was able to do that is because he was the only one with this access.


He was the only one who was ordered to do that because he was the only one who had a vehicle. And he's right. Yes, exactly.


They said it so many times in our lawsuit saying, well, you were free to leave. And of course, I said, well, had I driven off in their vehicle, that would have been grand larceny, right?


No, I was not. I had no means to get out. Right, right.


Right. And you had and by the way, you also had no word of grand theft, grand theft auto theft, right? Yeah. Yes.


But yeah. But you also had nowhere to go. No. No. Right. Yes.


And they also on top of that, when Marc Headley was on his bike, didn't they run your husband over?


And then what? And then when the sheriff's office showed up, he lied.


Yes. Protect Scientology even in that moment. He did. And that's and that's all this is all in his book, Blown for Good.


And to add to that, more specifically, he knew that if he did, I who he'd left behind, thank you, Mark, would be in deep trouble. And they would. And I because I would have. But I would like to comment at this time, though, the day that happened. I was I had been up all night and I was in an office in the same building as Mike at the time, they came to me and said, Mark is an enemy of the church.


He called nine one one well.


That was black and white, right? Anyone who calls 911 when they are an enemy of Scientology. Right.


And so they're basically saying, no, that so you're married to him and you're going to divorce him. Yes, yes. Yes. OK, Mike, let's go through some.


And by the way, he didn't call 911. He didn't yell.


I was not that not that it would have been wrong to call 911. Right.


Claire, did you want to go over any more? Did you have other things that you thought you were about to say? Some things, accidents or other things that you witnessed?


I mean, there there were numerous accidents, incidents, suicides. And they were all I mean, we could go through the details for hours, but the pattern was always the same as your story was developed.


OK. Were you witness to any abuse and were told, OK, if somebody asked about this caller, you're going. So we're just looking for other things. If yes, the answer is no, there's answers.


No, but if you I mean, we've we've talked about witnessing physical abuse before on the aftermath. So, of course, you know, there are hundreds of times that I witnessed Miscavige being physically abusive, maybe even thousands. You know, it was a way of life at that property.


I saw Miscavige physically abuse Mike more easily hundreds of times over the years. So.


So were you told and were you told? So you're saying you've witnessed physical abuse by the hands of David Miscavige? Yes. And you were told by whom?


If anybody asks about this, you are to say this.


That's that conversation. In those circumstances, when it's on the property just involving staff, it goes without saying there's no there there's no need for a short story.


When there's no outside witnesses, there's no you just are you guys know that Mike is not going to jump over the gates and go run to the sheriff's department? That's just know that you're not going to say anything, Claire, because you're just used to seeing that abuse. And it makes sense why that abuse is happening. That's right. And if the authorities were to come on the base and say we heard stories of you guys being held against your will and people being beaten, what would you say to that?


Well, so there and there were a few instances where in the early 90s someone did call 911.


One, there was a woman whose mother she was trying to she was trying to leave to reconnect with her and she called 911 from the property.


However, in this in the main security booth, they have a scanner. So they heard that the police were responding and coming to the property and they promptly put this woman in a vehicle and drove her to Los Angeles so that by the time the authorities got there, the answer was, there's no one here by that name. Uh, I see.


And again, they've developed relationships with the local authorities.


You know, they'll question they don't where they don't question it. Yes. Right now. But, Claire, if you were directly asked by the sheriff's office, Claire, we heard that people were being beaten here. Is that true? Why don't you come with us? We'll help you. What would have been your answer back then?


Back then? Well, let's just set the stage. There would be a Sea Org member with me, a hand during the interview. I wouldn't be by myself in that interview.


And that's I would have that's standard practice. You're not absolutely by yourselves, OK?


No, absolutely not. And I would have already been prepped with exactly what I was going to say. So in in my mind, what would you say, Claire? What were the what were the things you would say about being beaten and held against your will? Say?


I absolutely was not have not been beaten or and have not been held against my will. And you're happy here and here?


I'm happily married. David Miscavige is God's gift to mankind. His entire purpose is to save the planet.


And I mean, in some of the affidavits, they make stories about how he rescued a bird. And, you know, I mean, but but Claire.


So if they confronted you and said, no, listen, you know, your former co-worker, Mike Rinder, is out here in the real world telling us that, you know, he was beaten hundreds of times in front of you.


What would you say to that?


The mindset is not that the facts of what happened is not important. What's important is that in that scenario, Mike is attempting to destroy Scientology.


So therefore, it's my job to to discount and.


Right. So what would you say about Mike to the officer asking you that question?


Whatever lines I was told to say. I see. You will be trapped, right? Yeah, because I usually but but usually with the lines are clear, you know what the lines are, right? The lines are. Mike was kicked out of Scientology. He was not. He was kicked out for reasons of whatever, unable to live up to the high standards of Scientology in the sewer.


And if anybody had committed these horrible things, it was him and Marty Rathbun or him and Marty Rathbun or him and Tom debarked or Tom debarked and markedly whoever it is that's left.


If they are forced into a corner of having to admit that something happened, it's the people who left that did it right.


Even though they're the ones that are going out and saying, this is what happened to me, right?


Yes. But, Claire, your mindset was it was that you would lie to protect Scientology. But but when you went to bed at night, when you were in your motel room with no TV and a mattress, you would think, wouldn't you think Mike's telling the truth? I know that Mike is telling the truth.


Of course, I would know Mike is telling the truth. But I think it's also important to talk about and understand that if a staff member there does not follow what they are told to do, there are very serious consequences. So had I messed it up and said something wrong, I would be put under full time security watch. I would be on heavy manual labor. I would never I wouldn't be able to talk to my husband. You know, there's very real life consequences if you do not abide by and do what they tell you to do.


Totally go. I got that.


Yeah. But when you laid your head down at night, Claire, and you thought that Mike was telling the truth. That that is the that is the hardest part for me as a Scientologist, to understand what they do to people, how they fair game people, how they destroy people's lives, when when they lay their heads down at night, they know that we are all telling the truth.


That's the part I don't understand. Yes. So so when you lay your head down at night, you go, but fuck, I know Mike is telling the truth. I was witness to his abuse.


I was witness. What do you tell yourself then when no one's watching? That's the voice of reason that you stick in the back of your mind and do not listen to. I don't know what else to say. Right. You just you know, and to me, honestly, that's, you know, the fact that I lived there for 15 years and witnessed some terrible things. And how do you come to terms with that? All you can do is try to understand the programming and the manipulation and the mental control that they exerted over you.


That's of course, I get it.


Mike, when you knew that people were telling the truth, were there was there a moment, a crack of like. But but how did you get through it, you just said, but they shouldn't be talking, but they even though they I know it's true, they know it's true. They shouldn't be talking about it.


Yes. And therefore, deserve deserve the the punishment they're getting.


That's a big part of it, Leigh, is that, look, if you've got a problem with Scientology, deal with it in Scientology. Yes, there are internal procedures for dealing with everything. There is a justice system. There is an ethics system. All of these things are all already covered in Scientology.


So if you're stepping outside of Scientology to air your grievances or resolve situations or whatever, then that is proof that though you may be telling the truth about something or another your over all trying to destroy it.


Mike, that is the bigger point to make here, because that's what justifies like.


Yes, Leah is telling the truth. Mike's telling the truth, but they know they shouldn't be saying it. That's against our policies and that's how they get through the fucking night because they go, OK, we get it, Leah. But right. Internal reports did that. But write it to David Miscavige there about him. There about him. My reports are about David Miscavige abusing people. So we can't do that. There's other options, there's. There is no ROTC.


David Miscavige is ROTC. OK, but there's the watchdog committee, there is no watchdog committee, David took it out. They must have check it out. So they but they still believe in the policies of Scientology that you can make it right and fix it within. And that's what we've been really guilty of in quotes that we've gone against the policies of you don't put it out on the street. The truth. Yes, absolutely correctly. Just don't tell anybody.


Yes, exactly, and then you add one more layer to that, which is back to something Cliff said very early on, the greatest good look. I know when I told my brother when my brother came to try and confront me in the parking lot. Yeah. And was yelling and screaming with those other crazy banshees.


And I said to him, Stop, Andrew, stop. Listen, you don't know what is going on. You don't know what really happens at the international base. You've never been there. You have not seen day. Don't care. That's exactly right, Leah.


I don't care because David Miscavige is doing so much good for the world.


Right. Right. And on that, we hope that we've educated people further on what how far how far reaching fair game and lying to the authorities.


And a lot I mean, how far Scientology will go.


To hide the truth and I hope we've given more insight into this week, I hope people really starting to get this and clear once again, we've called upon you to help us out. And we love you and thank you. For continuing to tell the truth, for continuing to speak out against Scientology and we love you and Mike, I love you.


Oh, thank you. I love you.


I love you. I love you. I love you. I know. But only. Thank you.


Thank you for your both for the persistence on, you know, this this whole path of educating the public in general has been a tough journey.


And I I truly hope that the examples we've given will help educate authorities on the pattern by which Scientology has evaded justice so far so that they can no longer continue to do so. They point clear.


Thank you so much and thank you to all of you for listening until next time. And we love you, too, we should say. Yes. Why should we love you guys? Thanks for listening. Ever wondered why there are two ways to spell doughnut's or why some people think you can find water underground just by wandering around with a stick? Believe it or not, this is stuff you should know. You know the podcast with over a billion listeners.


It's now for your eyes so you can read it. Stuff you should know. An incomplete compendium of mostly interesting things covers everything from the origin of the Murphy bed to why people get lost preorder at stuff you should know dotcom or wherever books are sold.


This is savage and I have some exciting news to share. We are back for season two of my podcast. Let's Be Real with Sammy J. This season we'll have more revealing and unfiltered conversations with celebrities, influencers, activists and athletes. Guests include the amazing singer and actor Anthony Ramos, Tic-Tac sensation Dixy Romelio, NBA star Aaron Gordon and many more listen to Let's Be Really Savage on the Ihara radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast.