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Welcome, everyone, to another episode of Scientology Fair Game, Mike Slowly Kellow, we have yet another distinguished guest and someone we consider part of the family of fighting and exposing Scientology and their criminal activity.

Tony Ortega, welcome.

Thank you for having me on. Leah. My I.

Tony, how are you?

It is absolutely our pleasure. Now, let's for for those who don't know, Tony, let's go through a little bit of your history.

Tony, you were not ever a Scientologist, never once.

And what got you involved in exposing Scientology?

You know, I was a new reporter for a newspaper in Arizona, of all places, and I was just looking for a good story. And I was fortunate, I worked for a weekly and part of our job was to look for stories that The Daily had either missed or done badly, OK? And I happened to be looking through the letters to the editor one day of the Arizona Republic, and I spotted a letter from a guy named Rick Ross who was complaining to the paper that they had covered his lawsuit and that he had lost a five million dollar lawsuit.

But they had completely left out of the story that the plaintiff against him had been recruited by the Church of Scientology. And I thought, wow, that sounds juicy, how could the paper of record leave that out? All right. And so I reached out to him and found that there was this incredible story about Kendrick Moxon and the Church of Scientology recruiting this Christian kid to sue Rick Ross so they could really end up suing the cult awareness network and end up taking it over.

I mean, it's an incredible story and these Scientology story, but I got to sink my teeth into that. And I was fortunate enough that I worked for a publication that kind of encouraged you to develop an area of expertise. And so over the years, I just kept coming back and back to that subject. I just found it endlessly fascinating. But I'm just a reporter covering her story. I never was involved in it myself.

But now, you know, just a quick little stat rundown for you. You graduated Cal State Fullerton. You've worked for the Phoenix New Times. You worked for The New Times, L.A., Broward, Palm Beach, New York Times and The Village Voice.

So I ended up the editor in chief of The Village Voice in New York, which is an amazing position to be in as a journalist. And I had written a lot about Scientology on the website and it had gotten huge. You I was overnight, I was the most read blogger in the entire company. And but, you know, this was a very difficult time for newspapers, we were letting go people all the time, it was terrible. I hated doing it and the guys that owned it were turning it over to their lieutenants.

It was going to change hands. And when you're the editor in chief, you serve at the pleasure of. Right. And when and when a regime change comes, you know that you're probably not going to survive it. And I knew that the new owner readers didn't think about me the same way the previous owners did. So I got out of there when I could. I left at that point because I knew it was changing and I went to go write my book about it.

So I left. And a week later they announced the ownership change that until then had been secret. I was one of the few people that knew about it. Right.

And just and just to let everybody know that that Tony started his blog after leaving The Village Voice called the Underground Bunker.

And you you then you wrote the book. You just mentioned the book that you wrote, which is amazing. It's a story about Paulette Cooper, who was a journalist in New York and has probably one of the most egregious fair game stories that that we've ever experienced.

And you've you had her on the aftermath. You had her on the podcast. I mean, she's an amazing figure. And I just you know, Janet Reitman had written her book and Lawrence Wright was writing his book. Yeah. I just wanted to find something that was more narrative based. I wanted I wanted to find a story about Scientology that was a story. Right. And my publisher gave me the best advice. He said, write it as if it's happening.

So when you read my book, The Unbreakable Lovely about Apollo Cooper, it reads more like a business thriller than a history, you know what I'm saying? So I guess the way I tried to do it and I think people enjoyed it. And so that's so that was the timing on that. I left the voice. I spent a couple of years writing that story. I had started up my own website, Tony Ortega Underground Bunker. And just a year after I left, the voice is when I got to break one of my biggest stories of all time, and that is that Leah Remini had left the Church of Scientology.

Is that right? I didn't know that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. July eight or something. So I felt something like 2013. I got to break the story that you had left Scientology and I got to tell the story about the wedding and Italy and all that stuff. Right. So that was that was a huge thrill for me to be able to break that story on such an important one.

So how long have you been writing about Scientology abuses? I just passed twenty five years, which is fascinating because, again, I have to reiterate, Tony is and was never in Scientology. And you are one of the few who continues to expose Scientology.

I mean, we I know we all tweet about that, like, hey, where's the L.A. Times? Where's The New York Times? Where's anybody other than Tony and Yashar and and Marlow Stern? Like, I don't know who else is really writing about.

Well, one thing I had noticed was, you know, as I was learning the history and I, of course, had such huge admiration, not just for Paulette, what she had written, but people like Joel Subpanel and Robert Wilkos of the L.A. Times and, you know, people at The Washington Post. And but what I noticed and Richard Bahah, for example, who you had on.

Yes, you're right. Listen, I don't want to not mention the people. There are people. The Tampa Bay Times, it was Joe Childs and I noticed.

Yeah, it was that yeah. What I noticed was that it would do some huge thing. And then, like, we're all totally indebted to Tom and Joe for Truth Rundown. Yes. But then it would kind of die off and write what I realized. It was a niche that I felt that I could fill, and that was that daily drumbeat so that, like, not every day at the bunker is a huge, important story. But we're keeping an eye on them day in and day out so that people won't forget about disconnection, about tax exempt status, about all these things.

And I felt like that was something I could do. And I just really enjoy it. I still feel like I got a front row seat to an amazing story that's going on. Yes.

Well, and I think also, Tony, you've you've provided an archive and a place, an easy place for people to go to search about any topic related to Scientology.

I mean, there is a story on the bunker about anything and everything from what is Dianetics and clearing to what happened with the tax exempt status to what is going on with the legal cases to personal stories of people's involvement and how their lives are being destroyed. Royte, like everything is there, and when I'm looking for something about Scientology, rather than just doing a straight Google search, I usually go to your website and search on your website first and look to see, OK, well, Tony's article about this because it's always got links to any other information.

It's like an invaluable repository of the history and dirty laundry of Scientology.

I don't disagree. And once again, I'm not talking about people who are have amazing websites like Geoffrey Augustine with a Scientology money project and Chris Shelton like definitely now.

Yeah, but I'm talking about non Scientology. You know, not former Seinfeld, not even connected to Scientology in any familial way. Just straight up journalist talking about Scientology abuses. So I just want to be clear, because I don't want to discredit the amazing work that people do, because, like, you have an amazing blog as well. But we're not talking about it.

We're talking about journalists who have never been in Scientology. Right. And they are far and few between. So you've been covering Scientology. We're also going clear, Tony, and you have been systematically and consistently fair, gamed by Scientology and Scientologists. Yeah, you had me on the aftermath and ask me about that, and that's when I said for the first time publicly that they had targeted my wife with an elaborate scheme where they hired an out of work journalist to pretend that he was working on a story about her in order to freak out her employers.

So why don't you tell us what happened? Well, fortunately, her employers understood. You know, one of the advantages we have, yes. Is that people know about Scientology and they know that Scientology is full of it. So once we made them aware this is a Scientology plot, they understood. And then, you know, what's what's this I want to say? It's funny. It's not really that funny, but no. Three, three years later, they tried the exact same scheme, the exact same same scheme.

What's the scheme? Tony told me today they have somebody pretend that he's a reporter writing something about my wife and accusing her of being a terrorist. And so they go to it.

So they go. So how do they do this? They go to your to her employer.

They contact her via the telephone that they want an email saying, I'm working on a story and we need a quote from you about why you would hire a terrorist. And the reason why they call her a terrorist is that, you know, back during the anonymous days in two thousand eight, two thousand nine, they had some really fun online boards where people went and talked about Scientology and Anonymous. And she was one of many thousands of people that, you know, told jokes about Scientology at the anonymous board, OK?

And so they that they consider her a terrorist. So they sent an email to her employer saying, do you realize, you know, working on a story, the fact that you hired a terrorist?

Well, hang on, Tony. Let me just clarify one thing. That they don't consider her a terrorist. I mean, they don't give a fuck. They only care.

They just trying to freak them out because they don't actually believe that they don't want to harm you.

Yeah, but but what I found funny was three years later, they tried the exact same ploy with a different person. And this time her bosses were laughing. They're like, if it didn't work the last time, why are they trying it again? I said, well, that's Scientology.

And my buddy Mike. The intent of this is what? Because they're not they're not journalists. They work for a Scientology front group magazine. And they just simply can say that they're journalists, which which they are not. They did this in my in my mother's restaurant.

They showed up with a business card that said journalist on it for I think it was what Freedom Media magazine or which is a Scientology publication that is just dedicated to putting out slander or lies about people speaking up and out about Scientology and literally went up to my sister and said, you know, we're doing a story on Leah Remini.

And she's like, oh, are you you're doing a story about has written about Leah Remini. And she's like, oh, OK. So here's my card.

You know, are you willing to talk about her? You know, she goes, what's the story about? We're we're we're just we're vetting her book, Troublemaker. We're vetting her book. And she said, OK, because the book's been out for like five years, I just said, yeah, and my sister asked some follow up questions for which the women just kind of started to back out of the diner.

And this is the.

But, Mike, what is the purpose of something like this? Like, let's say Shannon was my boss.

The purpose is to cost you your job so that that is exactly what the directive from Hubbard says, that you can always cost them their job.

So just the planting, the seed that maybe I was not factual in my book.

I mean, everybody has written a book, knows you ain't seen it in a book that's not vetted up and down a million fucking times. Anyway, sorry, Mike, go ahead.

Yeah.

And and the idea and, you know, I've shown these things a number of times.

There are two particular references from Hubbard where he talks about you call up, you know, he gives these examples of, gosh, Porgie and I call up the call up the the thing and say that, you know, the prostitute is demanding her payment.

And that creates in the mind of someone, oh, there must be something to this where there's smoke, there's fire. I mean, they did they've done the same things to me numerous times. They go knock on your next door neighbor's door and say, we're conducting an investor. Hi, I'm a private investigator and I'm conducting an investigation into Mike Rinder. Are you aware that he is engaged in mortgage fraud?

Are you aware that he has been accused of smuggling drugs?

And that's complete bullshit.

But the person gets in in their in their mind the idea there must be something bad about this person, because why would anybody show up if that wasn't the case? Right. And I remember when this first came up with Tony's wife and I actually wrote a letter to her boss that detailed and gave the exact here is exactly how they do this.

This is what is happening around here. And how do I know this?

Because this is what I use to be in charge of in Scientology.

And because Tony Ortega is such a thorn in the side of Scientology and they can't get him, they're trying to get his wife. And that also is pursuant to the Hubbard dictate of you go after what the person is seeking to protect. Right.

And every man who is. Who can call himself a man seeks to protect his wife and children and family. There is no question that that's that's the job of a man is to protect his wife and children. So that's a very common target for when you do one of those things as well.

Women as well. Women.

But we. Yes, I'm just saying, why go after why going to Tony's wife? Well, because I have a wife. Yeah, but it's also going after just really, Tony, and going after anybody who's connected to Tony will eventually take in their minds. Take Tony out if you can.

Mike, if you could, will you post all this on the Web site? Yeah, I do it every time we talk about this.

I put them on the great, you know, Fair Game podcast, dot com website that accompanies the each episode and on my blog. And, you know, I keep putting these things out because they are so incredible. Yes. I don't think people still or many people still actually understand that these things are mandates.

These are what Scientology is required to do from people.

I truly it says frame them, I think because people come from the thought, you know, like real people who are have real faith. Right. You don't have to exactly follow to the T, you know, the scripture of your religion. Right. Where because Scientology isn't a religion, it's a business for profit, pretending to be a cult, not even a religion, because it really is a business for profit, because it conducts itself as a business.

It has a literally Mike, I did a I did a podcast or someone the other day and I said, you know, the price list of Scientology and those are priceless. You have to prepay. But wait, wait, wait, what?

And he was well versed in Scientology. And, you know, as far as he can be not being a Scientologist, right.

I said, baby, please tell me, you know, that there's a fucking priceless like you can just Google.

I said, Smurfette, please do it now. Please do it now as we're talking, because I cannot take this anymore. Scientology has a price list. Everybody, you can Google it and see it. It is not a faith based religion. It is a business for profit. Sorry. Well, it I mean, it is faith based, though, Mike, and I'm going to I just want to make a distinction here.

Well, Mike, let me ask you, Mike, really, faith is faith in L. Ron Hubbard. No, no, no. That is Mike, Mike, Mike and Mike. I'm going to fight you.

Sorry, Tony, that you have to be involved in this family feud. But this is what the family is all about, Tony.

And you're part of the family. So hold on.

Mommy and daddy are fighting or as I refer to us, grandma and grandpa, OK? Grandma and grandpa are going to fight for it. Mike, have you ever been in a Scientology courtroom where you are sitting reading a Scientology policy while the police officers are standing behind you, making sure that you don't yawn, don't itch, don't move in your chair. And if you do, you are forced to go into another room by the Scientology police officer called a supervisor and they then start to ask you what every definition of the word czar is or what's the definition of a what's the derivation derivation of how is the word a being used here, how they're being used?

And then after they do that, Mike, you say I don't particularly agree that all children in Dianetics, I don't I don't really think that I subscribe to this idea that a child of seven years old should not be reacting to being passionately kissed by a grown up.

And if they react in any way upset that that child, there's something wrong with that child. Now, if you say you don't agree with that.

Yeah, what happens, you're allowed to believe that, Mike, and not allowed to believe it, you're allowed to not believe Scientology.

You know what I'm saying?

You have to. It is entirely a matter of you have faith that every word of L. Ron Hubbard is true. And that is the distinction of what makes the Scientologist you have to believe. I just don't I just don't like those things when it's.

No, because there's no repercussions if I go into a Catholic church or synagogue and I say, I don't particularly believe this, why TOTY are laughing.

But what, Tony, be the tie breaker here definition is this is exactly the kind of argument I try never to get into at the poker right now, because if you are raised with the first what the first you're using faith as a broad term, meaning a real religious belief.

I am being funny and saying. Right, yeah. Scientology says there's no faith in Scientology.

And I'm saying that's actually not true because you have to believe every single word of L. Ron Hubbard.

But I just don't know of any religion other than extremist cults and and other types of extremist thinking that that is actually considered. You know what I know to be faith, which is, you know, having faith in something. You can choose to believe something, choose not still call yourself Jewish, still call yourself a Catholic if you know one showing up to your house. Mike Demandforce, thank you.

But that's what I'm saying. That's a broad definition of that term, meaning a religious belief or religious community.

Now, one of the more intriguing things about Scientology is that its its adherents will swear to you up and down that you're not asked to believe anything, any science. It's a scientific pursuit. Hubbard said it was science and he didn't want you to believe anything. You just have to go through it and learn the science. And then once they've been through going through this science long enough, they're removing invisible entities from themselves with the use of a quasi lie detector for eight hundred dollars an hour.

Right. So, you know, it's amazing that people that will put up with that will claim to you that they aren't asked to believe anything.

Oh, I know, right, Tony?

The thing is true is if I was a Scientologist and I would tell my mother I don't particularly agree or believe in these upper confidential levels of Scientology, my mother would 1984 me, she would send a report, a written report to Scientology. Then they would call me in. They would interrogate me in a locked room. They would say, what are you looking at on the Internet? Who are you talking to? That's anti Scientology. And if I just said, look, I just don't believe that were made up of a spiritual beings that are talking to me or, you know, pretending to be cancer, I just don't believe like I just don't I think I don't think that's true.

I just choose not to believe that just. And you get punished for that. You have to believe it or you are punished for it. Not only are you punished for it, then your whole family is punished for it. Pulled into Scientology at the cost of us, by the way. Three thousand dollars minimum to interrogate me.

And unless I say, OK, I believe this, that will I ever get out of the interrogation, I have to believe there's no way for me to get out. And so if I want to get out and say, well, fuck it, I'm out, then my whole family is leaving me.

I'm being shunned by everything I've ever known. I'm having to admit that I was wrong. I don't longer have my community that I was right. You know, there's a lot of repercussions.

I just don't know of any real faith. That's the repercussions are so great.

Of course. Of course. But that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying.

You can't you can't define Scientology as a faith in the same way that you define Catholicism or capitalism or whatever as a faith.

But the lie that you don't have, that you don't believe anything in Scientology, that it is all science.

And just as Tony said, you you are not asked to believe anything that's utter horse shit.

There is. Yes. Way more belief or faith in L. Ron Hubbard in Scientology than there is in the Bible, in Christianity or the Torah or whatever in any other religion.

So that that was. The point I was making, I mean, I guess not a faith, but it requires more faith than any faith that you know of. OK, I disagree with the word.

So I'm not even going to agree with you, Mike. But, Mike, the real point of this was because you are forced into submission with Scientology teachings.

We were talking about the policies of Scientology. And so this is the part I think, that we could all agree on, that people don't really understand that there's no assimilating information from Scientology. The policy of L. Ron Hubbard has to be followed to a T. You cannot kind of think it says this kind of thinking says that it is policy. There's policy of L. Ron Hubbard that says policy is to be followed and my policies should never change, period.

And so because of that, this is why fair game and fair game directives will continue to be in existence and will continue to be used by Scientology and Scientologists because they follow the scripture, the policy of L. Ron Hubbard, to which he that is part of the the the agreements of Scientology.

We all agree that we will adhere to Scientology policy at all times exactly how it's written.

And because of that, they spend incredible amounts of money, taxes, covering nuclear, smearing your bike and smearing me. I mean, they just it's constant online. They send people around the world. I've had private investigators trying to intimidate my loved ones in both hemispheres on four different continents. I mean, it's just it's insane the amount of money they will spend hoping that they will frighten you out of saying anything else about the Church of Scientology. That's exactly what it is, a shot of them into silence.

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Fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on top of all of this, Mike, you and Tony were victims of of Scientology hacking. They actually hacked your emails, tried to tried to write. But but but what was the guy's name. Mike. Tony.

Eric Suld Arriaga. Yes. Being employed by Dave LaBeau.

And who's Dave LaBeau? Dave LaBeau is the notorious private investigator who was the protege of the original notorious Scientology private investigator Gene Ingram.

And Dave LaBeau was the person who was originally the guy who went after Bob Mintern at my direction and then was the guy that went after me and Marty Rathbun and Tony at whoever took over from me direction. LaBeau showed up at my mother's house twice. Saying What? Doing what?

The Just Intimidator this Breitner when doing an investigation into allegations that Tony Ortega is involved in child sex trafficking, I guarantee you that's exactly what he said.

And your mom and your mom, Toni, your mom does.

She's not involved in any of this. Right?

She you know, but she's you know, she's tough, OK? I mean, the whole point is they show up, they want to ask questions and it just gets everybody nervous. I mean, they write what they want. Is that that feeling in the pit of your stomach that somebody at my mother's door on the other side of the country, there's nothing I could do about it. Right. LaBeau is also the guy who ran the squirrel busters.

Wow. Sorry, bottle of water, Mike, I have to drink two of these a day, I'm told. Oh, it's so like I don't like water, I just don't like water in general.

Yeah, I have coffee here. But the to this is like torture to me to have to drink two of these are literally it's like, oh, you've got you've got Dave's brand of water.

Leah, first of all. So fucked up, you know, because I saw a Tom Cruise's house, right, and, you know, you ask for water and this is what you get.

I drink the water and again, not a big fan, like I just don't like drinking water because it makes me pee every two seconds, so.

I drink the water and I go, fucking this is some fancy water. This is the way the fuck in the real celebrities do it, you know? So then I go, let me see if I could find this water. So I find the water. And then I have, like, my regular shit water, you know, bottled water, and I'm like, oh, I got there is a difference between the taste of these waters now and I even have had taste tests in my house where people go, you're absolutely crazy, you know, water's water.

And I'm like, I will fight you. Seriously fight you on this point. I'm going to put out Dixie Cups of water and you tell me which one tastes better. And it's always this water. I know.

And out of my city, drinking water. Wow, that's different. OK, so that's that's unfair. That's unfair, Tony, because I live on the West Coast and you're not.

Oh, I know how bad the tap water.

You cannot drink the tap water here. Horrible. I am forced to spend money on this fancy Tom Cruise in water.

I still remember my first day in New York as an 18 year old in 1981, turning on the tap for the first time and realizing how cold and was still crisp. Wonderful it was. I was shocked. It is a shocking moment when you could literally drink out of the. It's very liberating. Anyway, yes, and I reluctantly am still drinking this water.

I'm ashamed of myself, my ashamed of myself. Thank you. All right, so, Tony, so you guys end off on the wind it off on the fact that this man died, did you want to add anything to that? Because it just kind of fizzled out because I was coughing.

Well, I just remember what an interesting moment it was when the U.S. attorney had revealed to me that I was the victim in a case. Yeah.

And then I was talking to Mike Rinder and realized he was a victim of the same case.

Wow. It's an odd day.

Yeah, it was. Yeah. And at that point, we both realized, oh, now we know who the real criminal is. Who's going to want to actually take taking Mike Rinder? There's really only one organization that will do that. Right.

But you guys were never able to with the help of the FBI, take it further. I mean, was this person ever did he ever say I was hired by the Church of Scientology or did he ever admit to any judge revealed that in his chambers and The New York Times reported it.

And like I said, I think because it was so incidental that they had caught this guy in a in a larger investigation of something else they were more interested in. They didn't spend the time following this where it could go. And wasn't it, Mike, that they wanted Sarda Yogurt to do a recorded call and they kind of blew it or something and he couldn't pull it off because he couldn't pull it off.

And LaBeau was smarter than Eric Selda Arriaga.

And because the FBI was having Eric Selda Arriaga speak to the people who had hired him to try and like expand this because they knew he was really a patsy.

He was just the guy that did the like the grunt work. Right.

Who hired him was who they were most interested in and he couldn't pull it off, apparently.

So it just sort of fizzled.

But the the good thing about that was that was the end of Dave Labo.

He has not been seen since then. In fact, his brother wrote to me. And he said and said said, I know what my brother has been up to.

He is a rotten piece of shit and I can't even find him anymore. I don't know where he is. He's gone to ground. And I just want to let you know that that nobody in our family agrees with what he has done.

And, well, that's lovely that he that he reached out to you and has an opinion about the dirty work that his brother has been engaged in most of his life. But that but what is interesting to me is how somebody just kind of disappears and why.

I mean, I know I understand it when it comes to missing, you know, the missing wife of David Miscavige or any Scientology employee that was a witness to a rape or, you know, children being molested.

And so that makes total sense to me. But why why would this guy just kind of disappear from his own family?

He's not a Scientologist, does he? Yes. Oh, he was. Oh, he became one. He became famous as a P.I. He testified he submitted a declaration in the Rathmann lawsuit that he was a Scientologist.

The reason why he was running the squirrel buster operation was that he was personally offended that Marty Rathbun was harming his religion. Of course, I think Mike and Mike took it about as seriously as I did. I mean, the idea that Dave LaBeau was motivated out of, you know, just standing up for his religious beliefs. Right.

And so listen to the truth of the matter is, if if any of these guys, if they get wind that the FBI is after them and is trying to smear them in some wider investigation, they panic.

Scientology panics, mm hmm. My bet would be that Dave Laboe is down in Cabo San Lucas with Gene Ingram. That's where he came from. He was Gene Ingrams mechanic on Gene Ingrams, four wheel drive rental agency in Cabo San Lucas.

I see.

So because we have told these stories before and people like you, you were part of Oza. So, you know, the thing to do with people that you think will be subpoenaed would be to ship them out of the country and basically finance their lives to just kind of live freely and happily with Scientology's tax exempt money so that they could avoid any kind of responsibility.

Yeah, in fact, that's where we sent Ronnie Moscovitch and his wife, Bettie was to Cabo San Lucas when the fear was that they were going to be subpoenaed in the McPhearson.

The person that Lisa McPherson trial, the death of the woman in Florida. Sure. Now, if you know Sea Org members, the people who run Scientology, they very rarely leave their posts. Like I have seen.

I have grown up with the same people that I have seen at Celebrity Center my whole Scientology career. They either moved to a different job, but they are still within the same organization unless they are in trouble. But they always come back like they they get reprimanded for, you know, six to eight weeks, and then you're not supposed to ask like, hey, were you, like, forced to lick toilet bowl, you know, allowed to ask your members where they've been, but they always come back.

That's the motto of the Sea Org, by the way we come back. But they mean in a different way. They mean lifetimes anyway. This person just so happens to have gone missing. The same time the LAPD knocked on Celebrity Centre's door asking to talk to this poor, she's all of a sudden out of the country. Yeah, shocking, isn't it? No, no, and by the way, we told them, we actually did say, hey, guys, if you could just listen to us.

We're just going to give you a one. Just a few sentences of advice. Don't go knocking.

Because the next thing that's going to happen is that person is going to be shipped out of the country and of course, just like the lawyers involved in every Scientology case, including the Danny Masterson idiot fucking lawyers, they know everything.

Including the police and the FBI, aren't they, ma'am, please don't tell us our job.

OK, just going to just we just know how Scientology works. But if you think, you know, I went to law school. Yeah, but you don't know S.L.

We know better. Thank you. OK, what happens not 48 hours later up out of the country.

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I go motorcycle fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more. Let's talk about the Danny Masterson case, because you, of course, are following it and have been following it and and the cases that are Valerie's case, Valerie Haney's case, if you want to talk about that.

Well, one of the things I've tried to do and I think Mike and then you and I have all had some success in this, I knew this was going to happen when Danny was finally charged. Places like the L.A. Times had full stories about the fact that he was facing forty five years to life in prison for raping three women and other details. But what word was left out of their story? And this is what I have been trying to educate people.

You cannot write about the Danny Massa situation without considering Scientology, because not only is Danny Masterson a lifelong Scientologist, the three women he is accused of raping were Scientologists at the time. And as much as he complains about the amount of time that it's happened, it's gone by. Since these incidents happen, the reason why so much time has gone by is the Church of Scientology is interference in these cases. So you really can't write about the situation without deeply considering Scientology's role in all this.

And I think over the last year, I have seen news organizations do a better, better job understanding that. I think that's thanks to the three of us and other people, you know, trying to educate them, because these are complicated, very complicated cases. And I feel for these reporters that are coming to a new and trying to put this together. But they need to keep that in mind that all three of these women were Scientologists at the time.

They were blocked from going to the police initially because of Scientology. Scientology is up to its neck in this thing. And they you know, they're not they're less involved in the criminal case because the criminal prosecutor's job is simply to prove that Danny Marsden raped these three women and then he's going to face a long prison stay. So the prosecutor may not bring up too much Scientology in that particular case, but these women also sued Danny and the Church of Scientology because of the harassment they've been through.

So it's really important that people keep that in mind. But, yeah, you brought it up first. Those you know, the way these the civil lawsuits been handled has been pretty disappointing.

Yeah, we're not talking about the criminal case. We're talking about the criminal case is very, very well.

And that's big trouble. But the civil lawsuit has been just one set of mistakes after another. And all three of the big lawsuits they filed are now they're all they're all terrible state right.

So far of what was recently was what's the name of the judge?

Kleinfeld, Steven Clayfield. Clayfield. OK, I don't know. Now, can we just change the word? Because because if we keep promoting the fact that this is a under any circumstances an arbitration, it isn't. There is no such thing. Everybody and again, you know, I have an 8th grade education because I was in a cult that didn't allow me to get education. But I mean common sense. I mean common sense. It just we just have to just apply some common sense.

There is no such thing as a Scientology arbitration. There just is no such thing. Why a judge can't simply say, well, let me see it. Well, because I'm not allowed to look at anything having to do with religion. But yet you found for the people who committed the crimes and allowing her or forcing them to do something that is a religious practice in Scientology, it is not secular. This is a science technology, justice action taken.

It says it right there. Everybody, if you can, can we make what you post? What comments are.

Yeah, OK, post the the articles that I have written about this bullshit arbitration thing because it's called everybody.

It's called evidence. Yeah. It's called a committee of evidence. OK, and it says even I'm now I'm just paraphrasing. Don't take my word for it verbatim, but it says this is a justice action taken against Scientologist. That's the part that really baffles me.

Why can't you simply ask the Scientology lawyer, let me see the arbitration that it actually exists? Am I crazy? No, unfortunately, that did happen in the Garcia case, and we can get into what's different. Well, it's not that different, Mike.

You're talking about people who are taking who are bringing Scientology to court because they have been abused, they have been hurt, they have been raped.

And you are saying you now need to sit in a room with your accuser, with who you're with the person who committed these crimes against you, who believe who are going into the, ah, this committee of evidence, this pretended arbitration and who believe that you should be destroyed by the very policies that you work that you believe in, says that you should be eradicated from the face of this earth for.

Reporting your crime to the police, you Scientologists believe that you should be eradicated from the planet and you believe that this is what these women should be subjected to. Like what? Can you explain the other side to me, anybody so that I can maybe see the other side of this?

There is no other side. I mean, I remember when the Garcia case was going on and Might provided testimony saying that, look, I was there when they created these contracts.

The whole point of creating these contracts was to create this trap for people. And so even though you have this former executive explaining how this was all meant with the most cynical and evil purposes to destroy people, these judges still always say, well, yeah, but there a church and I can't examine their internal rules.

And it's just amazing the way Scientology well, because the community, the committee of evidence would require that the defendants return to Scientology.

I mean, there is case law. I mean, we've seen this brought up. There's there's a famous there's actually a famous case involving Hooters, of all places where Hooters said the same thing. If you're going to sue us, you have to go to arbitration instead. And that Hooters got to choose the arbitrator. And there's case law where the judge said, no, no, no, you know. OK, if you could you can require arbitration, you can deny somebody their day in court, but once that decision is made, it has to be an independent arbitrator and an arbitrator who could find for either side.

And what I don't understand is with that case law on the books, a judge can't look at Scientology and say, OK, these people might be unhappy that they're not going to get their day in court and they're going to have to go through the arbitration. But at least it'll be an independent arbitrator who could possibly find for them.

But instead, they're not they're Scientologists in good standing who are required by policy to think of these women as evil suppressive persons. Right.

And you don't even hear them like they're not allowed to even talk to them if they were to talk the Scientology to literally cover their ears like it.

Is that insane? Is that insane and Scientology has done a great job of convincing courts that there is such a thing as a religious arbitration. Right. And I wrote an article on my blog where he said, look, a committee of evidence being called religious arbitration is like the Spanish Inquisition being called religious education.

There's no difference, right? You and you can't tell me that a court could not. Look behind this terminology of calling the Inquisition religious education and say, wait a minute, there's something really wrong here. This is this is no education.

This is torture. And actually, Scientology religious arbitration is also torture. It is subjecting people to a religious ritual which Scientologists hate. They hate being an interested party in a committee of evidence. It's like the worst thing that can happen to you. Now, imagine if you are no longer a Scientologist and having to submit to that bullshit. It's insane.

But what can we do at this point? Like what can we do, Tony? So I think that appeal the Garcias did go through an arbitration they didn't want to, but they went through it, I really give them credit because they knew the only way they could appeal the judge's ruling was by first going through the arbitration. So they went through it and it was as much of a farce as you can imagine. You can't have an attorney that can't have a recording.

They don't give you a transcript. They weren't even able to submit the evidence they wanted to submit. It was a complete joke, but they went through it so that the judge accepted it. Then they could appeal the judge's decision. So and I think they put together a dynamite appeal with all they brought up all of these issues that we're talking about, the unfairness with the religious. Why should a member of the church of the church have to go through the church's, you know, religious ritual, whatever they made all these?

I think they put together a great appeal. That's wonderful. It's more than two years now in the appellate court. Hasn't given us a ruling. Right. I mean, it's just incredible American justice.

And you know what? The other thing that bothers me, guys is, by the way, it's a committee of evidence. Might just bring up the point that you brought you brought up. It is like having the Scarlet Letter, because if you are in Scientology and you find out that somebody is is is under common, it is a justice action. It is like a court martial. Just everybody knows it is not an arbitration. It is a a justice action.

And if you literally like if I knew Mike, I saw Mike in the Cafe of Scientology and I was like, hey, no, Mike. And he was like, oh, I'm under control by.

Like, I wouldn't even want to be talking to Mike because a comma in Scientology means you or that you don't really you've done some shit and this is like the final this is the point before you're about to get kicked out, is a committee of evidence.

Right? Which is absolutely right. And you also have to understand it's not really like a court martial because you never get found not guilty.

Sure. OK.

This is the other thing about it is once a committee of evidence is convened on you, basically it's because you have someone guilty around has already determined that you are guilty of something and they want other people to pass the sentence on you. So it's a way of of avoiding having to be the bad guy all the time by passing it off to someone else, you can ask a thousand former Scientologists who've ever had a comment and say, what was your experience?

And every single one of them will tell you if they've had a comment. Well, I walked in there and I was assumed to be guilty. It didn't matter what I said. And even after I explained everything and laid it all out and whatever the findings found me guilty and the penalties that were that, you know, and I had someone write to me and said, yeah, well, I was found not guilty.

Like I had a committee of evidence that found me not guilty of certain charges and still gave me the penalties that were required. Had I been found guilty. I was like, what's the point? It's it's a sham.

But look, even as ridiculous as this body of evidence is and the arbitration is what's really going on here. Scientology has found a way to make itself lawsuit proof. Sure, they've found a way to make it almost impossible for a former Scientologist to sue them. It's just amazing that the courts are letting them get away with it. Well, I could only assume it's just because they're the. I don't know. Listen, people ask us all the time, like, what can we do, what can we do?

You know, I'm shocked that there's no victims advocate groups of. First Amendment people, I mean, where is everybody for the for the for the victims of Scientology?

This is that outrageous to me, the fact that we keep having to be the people who are screaming and carrying on about it, it just I don't know. I don't understand it. Is it because people don't understand what's happening? Because you're running around saying the word arbitration every two seconds as opposed to there's no such thing. It's called a committee of evidence as a justice action taken against Scientologists by using Scientology technology.

I mean, I don't know what what is it that that people can do to help to help the victims of Scientology who are being forced into these ridiculous, I don't even know, religious torture.

I don't know what to call it.

It it's so traumatizing to the victims of these crimes in Scientology. I don't know what to say to offer any comfort anymore to these people.

Yeah, it's just been a devastating couple of years in court. But what what can people do?

I mean, I'm sure there's people out there listening who who who can help, who can do something. I mean, what who do we need to to engage here?

Well, there's a new sheriff in town. And, you know, four years ago, we actually had some thoughts that perhaps the new administration might be interested in doing something and that nothing ever came of that. Right. But you know that when as the federal government dug into Scientology in 1963 with the FDA in nineteen seventy seven with the FBI and the two thousand nine with the FBI, in all those three cases, there was a Democrat in the White House.

So I don't I don't know. Does that be with a new Democrat in the White House? Is there an opportunity now for the federal government to do something? I don't know yet. It's too early. But, you know, I just feel like. These individual lawsuits. Individual lawsuits on their own were never going to sure, disrupt Miscavige too much, but they're just getting they're not even getting out of the gate now. Scientology is swatting them away.

It's really going to take government action. And I keep I'm sure you do, too. I keep hearing about government agencies that are interested or sniffing around. But when is somebody going to pull the trigger? I just don't know. But, Mike, are there lawyers out there who who should be interested in these stories, who should be?

Helping these victims or is it Prof's, is it, you know, individuals, I mean, is there anybody who is it or organizations who claim to be advocates for victims? I mean, who who can help?

What type of people can help here?

A billionaire would be good to afford to hire lawyers that charge a thousand dollars an hour because that's what all the good ones are. That's where all the good lawyers are. This is the problem or a big problem with the with the civil court system in the United States. He who has the most money hires the best lawyers.

And the let me just point out that lately in civil court, things have been disappointing. However, to answer your question, Leah, one of the best things that can happen is for a well-known celebrity to come out and speak out about Scientology and the fact that you have done that, you completely change the field. You have completely and utterly changed Scientology watching forever. You have brought in a whole new audience of people. You have raised the visibility of Scientology abuses in amazing ways.

So I don't you know, I totally get frustrated by what's going on in court, too. But I don't want to lose sight of the fact that it is. You have made a huge impact and things are very different today because of it.

And I concur with you 100 percent, Tony. And I also concur, and I say this often, ultimately, the solution to this is going to be when the appropriate government agencies decide to act. And how did they decide to act by two things.

One, pressure from public opinion and the media to pressure from elected officials who are in a position on the Budget Oversight Committee or, you know, they're the boss of the IRS or the boss of the FBI or whatever that is when you ultimately get to all of this is going to be put to bed.

And I believe that changing the public perception of Scientology is a necessary step to getting to that point.

Only when you get to that point do you really start seeing people willing to act. And I, I have great faith or great hope at this point. Just as you said, Tony, a new administration, there is a new opportunity. That's that's the best I will put it. I'm not sure that a Democratic administration is better than a Republican one. It's just new. So there's a new chance there, a new potential avenues to reach people who may be in positions to do something about it.

And I I will keep working on that as hard and as long and and until something happens, because in my view, that is the only way ultimately that these abuses are going to be put to an end.

Well said. Anything to add, Tony? I just wanted to say that in recent months at the underground bunker, Tony Ortega dug, two of the best things we've done recently is when you came to me. That's all. Three of us took part in Brian Seymours series Scientology Black Ops, which the network down there mysteriously killed at the last minute. And you were very unhappy about that, and that's when you revealed to me that there was an entire chapter of your book, Troublemaker, that you were not included in the book that was published.

And it was all about Tom Cruise and some of the things that Brian was going to reveal on his series. Right. And you stunned me by giving me that material. And you and I worked together to get that ready for the public to see. And I'm still just blown away that that came out on my website, the missing chapter from Leah Remini book, Troublemaker. So if people have not seen that yet, it's my pen tweet my number one tweet on my Twitter account.

So when you're taking a little link to that to Tony. Thank you, sweetheart. I appreciate it. And and, you know, of course, that has been.

You know, used as I don't know, but, you know, like entertainment, you know, fluff, bullshit where, you know, people accuse me of of, you know, he can't even sneeze without Leah, you know, and it has nothing to do with I think people miss missed the the not not not many.

But I'm just saying a small amount of people miss missed what the point of that was.

And I am so for covid rules being applied to such, you know, I'm a mosquera enforce it.

I you know, very much believe in this, in this.

And I never want to ever give anybody the idea that it's about that or simply not liking this person, because it's very hard for me to separate out the person from the victim, from the person that he is because of what he believes and not only believes in, but also is very much part of the abuse culture of Scientology.

Well, listen, Tony, once again, thank you for all that you do and for your continued support of the victims of Scientology.

I don't always love you, but I we fight just like family does.

I've sent you some really nasty emails and text, as have you.

But we remain dedicated to the bigger picture, which is exposing what Scientology is doing to people and will continue to do if we don't continue to do what we do. So thank you, Tony. Thank you to your readers who also are are are fighting and doing their part. And thank you all for listening and for caring. Don't forget to go to Tony's blog, to Mike's blog, to the Fair Game podcast Web site for all this information until next time.

Thank you.

I love you, both of you, to leave. Bye bye. I totally so I don't got to love you from Tony. I love you, Leah. Can you say it with like can you say it now where I actually believe you, I know you could do it. Men are very good at this. If you could just make me believe you.

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