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Listen to the Travelers' podcast every week on our radio Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to another episode of Scientology.

They are going off to a roaring start tonight.

Hi, Leah. Hi.

Once again, we call them the Ogg's. Kevin Ogen markedly.

Welcome. Thanks for having me. Thank you for being on again.

Thank you for answering the call on the podcast before this is the first time.

No meaning. Meaning like you consistently answer the call to me, to my to anybody who needs you, you and your wife, Claire. I mean, it's just. Thank you.

You're welcome. All right. Of course.

Well, so again, we've told your story on the aftermath and you've been on several times and like, put up those links. But let's let's dive into your story. Let's dive into your Scientology story. You were you got to Scientology when you were six. Your mother joined in nineteen seventy nine. You went to the Apple school as a kid, which is a Scientology school. Yeah. And how if you didn't call it that.

Well, yeah, a Scientology, I don't know, really.

It was a child care facility with with study tech. Yeah, it was.

You learn you learn Scientology as a kid for your education. Yes, exactly. That's the best way to say it. Yes.

And I was writing an article about this. I was I was doing an interview and I keep having to add to it because, as you know, Scientology is not an easy subject to cover in a tweet, even in the show three years and a podcast. I mean, we just were always running out of time. But but, Mark, it's funny. I was I was writing because one of the questions the interviewer asked was, why are you so consistent?

Why are you always shocked at Scientologist behavior? A fair game? And, you know, in going to therapy and reading books on the subject, you know, Scientology, once your parents are Scientologists, they cease to be your parents. And I'm just talking about parishioners. It's everything is referring to L. Ron Hubbard technology. Your parents can't think for themselves. As soon as they become Scientologists, they literally stop thinking for themselves.

That's totally true. And actually, when I was a kid, yeah, my mom, if something happened or if I misbehaved, she would get out one of these green volumes like Scientology book. Yeah, it was called the would just call them the green.

I call them the green books when I was a kid. But whenever anything would happen, she would grab one of these green Scientology books and then she would quote from that like base what basically what I did wrong and how it was wrong and then what I would need to do. And and I was so I had so much resentment for Scientology growing up, like, can't you just have a conversation with me and I? And finally it came I think I was about 14 and I said, every time you talk to me, you have to talk about it.

One of those green books. And I actually ended up moving out of the house at 14 because I just couldn't take it anymore.

Where did you go?

I actually went and lived with some of my friends that went that went to Delphi.

I know other Scientologists, other Scientology families that would take me in. And my dad had moved to Nebraska by this point, so I couldn't go live with him. And that's all I got.

Is, is that because your dad wasn't a Scientologist?

No, my dad was never a Scientologist. We lived we actually lived in Hollywood right across from the celebrity center, which is that big castle castle in Hollywood and Bronson or Franklin and Bronson. And we lived in an apartment building it right across the street from that. And my mom lived in the apartment building and my dad lived in the apartment building, but in separate apartments. So they weren't together. They didn't they were divorced soon. Actually, when we moved to California in nineteen seventy nine, my mom very quickly got into Scientology and I think at some point she gave him the ultimatum.

Well, if you are not going to do Scientology then we're going to get divorced. And he was like, well I guess we're getting divorced then. So. And that sort of. Was that the kind of baseline that Scientology had to do with my parents breaking up and it had to do with me going to all these shitty schools and we mentioned Apple School later on, I went to Delphi, which is another Scientology school. And and basically when I moved out when I was 14, I lived with these other families and then my mom and I never really had a good relationship.

When she kind of joined Scientology and broke up with my dad, I kind of I don't think I ever kind of got over that, of course. And and my dad was always cool. He was always I mean, he worked hard. He did what he could, but it was always like, well, he's not as good as he could be. And my mom started telling stories like he got electroshock when he was a kid and that's why he be Scientology.

And I was just like and I never even brought any of this up to my dad. I was just like, whatever. This sounds like a bunch of nonsense. And I actually I was like, she's just third party my dad, which is kind of like a Scientology thing where if there's any conflict, there's a this third party that is creating the the mischief or the the rumors or whatever, trying to, you know, make a make a stir up some trouble.

But but your dad, he kind of resigned to the fact that he just had no jurisdiction over you or he that's the wrong word.

He basically my sister and I have a sister as well.

And she's also was in Scientology and went to the same schools. And he basically knew that he had to play along to get along. If he did if he said anything bad about Scientology, then he knew he would lose contact with us.

So but you said you weren't allowed to move with your dad. Why was that?

Your mom had obviously custody of you and your sister or he moved to Nebraska and I went to school and lived and all my friends and I didn't just I wasn't just going to up and move off to Nebraska.

That was sort of like, whoa, now, even though you had this kind of. Well-deserved disdain for Scientology, it already broke up your family, you still joined what's called the Sea Organization, which is the part of Scientology, where you join, where you give up your life. You have to live, eat and work communally.

And that was sort of you, Josele, that was OK, really. I didn't sign up for what I was doing. I signed up for something else and I got bamboozled. So I was I was I was basically moved out when I was 14. I was living with a girl that went to school that went to Delfi in her family and her her mother and father got recruited for the Seahawk. I was living with them. So then I had to move out of their house.

So then I moved in with another lady that was a teacher at Delphi. And then I also began doing what's called a work study program at Delphi because my dad and mom stopped paying for my schooling. So I was paying for my school. Delphi's an expensive school to go to. I think it's about back then it was about five hundred a month, which is I think it's probably still a lot. But I was paying for my own schooling and then working at the school and I was a soccer instructor and I was helping out with whatever I could.

I was actually the person who was in charge of getting the teachers to do their courses to learn how to be better teachers. And and a group of recruiters came from a Sea Org facility called Able International, which is the Association for Better Living and Education. And they are a Sea Org unit, which is this billion year contract, Sea Org members from Scientology, and they run the front groups for Scientology, which is Narconon, Criminon, Applied Scholastics and the Way to Happiness Foundation.

And they came and said that I could work at a Narconon in Oklahoma and that I would be getting minimum wage, I wouldn't have to finish school. Right. And that I could help people get off drugs. So here I am. I'm that by this time I'm 15 or I'm paying for rent, food, trying to figure out how to get to school every day, trying to hustle and do side gigs and other things to make money. So I don't have to just eat ramen and baloney for every meal.

And these guys come along and say, you can get all up out of here, don't have to finish school. You can go to Oklahoma, start making minimum wage and we'll cover your boarding and all this other stuff. And I thought that sounds like what I need right now because I'm really struggling at 15 to, like, pay rent and pay school and everything else. And so I joined the Sea Org because there was going to be a Sea Org team that was going to go out to Narconon and run the Narconon and take over for these people that were basically not doing too good on running a Narconon.

And so after about two weeks in the Sea Org, I realized probably not going to end up at Narconon, as you read about in the Sea Org, one of the first things they teach you is you're going to go wherever we tell you to go and you're going to do whatever we tell you to do.

And I thought your mother had to sign papers that basically handed over your rights as a parent to Scientology in the sewer. Right. So she had no parental rights at this point.

Yeah. And oddly enough, that was the first time I actually felt like she was proud of me or like when she got to have nothing to do with me anymore. Like, this is the best decision you could be making. I'm so proud of you. Finally, you're going to be a real Scientologist. And I was just like. Really? OK, now you have no responsibility for me whatsoever, and now you're happy. So anyway, so I start working at the Sea Org and I start actually working at Abel International, which is on Hollywood Boulevard.

It's the big building at 63 31 Hollywood Boulevard. And. Of course, I'm not going to narc, that's I find that that's like the first thing they tell you is that I'm actually not only am I not going to go to Narconon, but I'm going to become the vice president for personnel for Abel International. So that's like an executive posting. I've been in the Sea Org exactly one hour and I'm going to be now I'm actually going to be in charge of recruiting new people who are right at this senior facility on Hollywood Boulevard.

Yeah. And so I ended up doing that for about, I don't know, three or four months, I failed horribly. I tried to recruit every single person that I knew at Delphi. I tried to recruit anybody and everybody that I knew. I tried to recruit and and I wrote a lot of letters to just the files and all that good stuff. And the one person I got into the Sea Org was my sister from Delphi. Oh, well.

And then and I immediately made her the what's called the the cop officer, which is kind of like the junior to the guy who's in charge of recruiting everybody. It's the the one person out there who made her write all the letters and do all the recruitment and all that stuff I didn't want to do. And and then I ended up getting busted off of that because I didn't recruit anybody else. And then they made me the vice president for the finance division for the for the Treasury Department.

So I got actually like. I was I got what's called a committee of evidence, which is kind of like a justice action within Scientology.

And so, I mean there arbitration.

Yes, arbitration, their official Scientology arbitration process. OK, just checking, which, by the way, is very arbitrary. I don't know if those words have any.

It's so arbitrary. It doesn't exist.

Arbitration in Scientology could be based on the what way the wind is blowing past David Miscavige that day. It could depend on what the results are.

But wait, Mark, I want to ask you just a few questions. Yeah. During your time in the sewer, I mean, what are we talking about? You're 15 years old. You are. You're living in a dorm with grown men or adults living in a dorm with a guy named Dick Story.

And Dick Story was one of the original Guardian's Office members. And he's mentioned in a lot of the Guardian's office documents when the Scientology perpetrated the largest infiltration into the United States government in its history. He was I think his post was like assistant guardian or something.

He was in the intelligence bureau. The information, the the invest, the the dirty tricks department.

Yeah. So he was my roommate when I got into Scientology and and he worked at a because. A lot of and this is a thing that I didn't know until I got into Abel as well as that when the Guardian's office got busted. They had all these people that work for them and part of the agreement or whatever the plea or however the court system worked it out and dealt out the punishment to Scientology. They said these Guardian's office people can't work in Scientology anymore because they're criminals or Scientology kind of threw them under the bus to say they don't work in Scientology anymore.

That's that's actually what happened. There was nothing from the government. This was a PR solution to the problem of how do you have all these guys that got sent to prison that were good Scientologists at the top of Scientology? Oh, we don't have them anymore. We threw them all out. Yeah.

So, you know, I got to able I found out that all these Guardian's Office members became the staff members for all these front groups. So because the able able international actually used to be a Department of the Guardian's office, which was called socco social coordination. So all of these people that were in the Guardian's office that were infiltrating the government and doing all these dirty tricks, well, guess what?

There's a guy by the name of Henning Helt. He's also he's actually one of the people I think he went to jail or he was one of the named co-conspirators. Guess what, he was the headmaster, headmaster of Delphi. He was my headmaster at Delphi. Yes.

Yeah. They just reassigned the criminals to us. So, yeah, he wasn't working in psychology. Yeah.

Like, legitimately, you know, he was working for Scientology was working for was working for their school front groups. Not on science. Not on paper. The Scientology Church or whatever you want to call it either way.

Yeah, but but Mark, let's not make let's make sure people understand Abel International is absolutely part of the Scientology quote, Church International is a sea organization outfit that, as you say, was headquartered at 63 thirty one Hollywood Boulevard, the Hollywood Guaranty Building with David Miscavige.

Yeah, yeah. Exactly the same building that RTC is located in L.A. And the head of Cable International was Laurie Zun.

And Laurie Zun was the former deputy guardian United States. Yes. And the president of Abel International was Rena Weinberg, the infamous one meaning dirty tricks department agent in Africa from South Africa.

Yeah, this the place who's who it was a who's who of the dirty tricks people were the people that, by the way, were the most ethical people on the planet. Here's all your coworkers. And it was literally like, these are the guys you're working with. And and then I found out. There's a guy by the name of Kendrick Moxon, who's the Scientology lawyer, and he's also an unindicted named unindicted co-conspirators in the infiltration of the United States government.

And his wife, Karla, was a teacher at Delphi. So once you start making all the connections, Delphi was with basically all the rejects from the Guardian's office. That's where they went to work. And and in fact, the guy who founded Delphi in Oregon is declared Espie to the to at this point. But so they have all kinds of Delphi. It's got all kinds of ties to Scientology. If anybody tells you Delphi is not a Scientology school, it is one hundred percent through and through a Scientology school.

It is also now the biggest source of new recruits into the Sea Org in the United States. Yeah, you have a hard time finding anybody in the United States who will now join the Sea Org mostly if they get them, they get them from like South America or Central America or Eastern Europe.

Yeah, but in in the United States, Delphi is the biggest source because it is primarily children of Scientologists. So the Sea Org recruiters hang out there all day, every day pounding on people. It's how Christie got into the Sea Org. She was recruited from Delphi.

So, yeah, it's also it's the usual suspects list. Even now, when you like, you go to the Danny Masterson thing and you say, well, there's this girl who was Danny Masterson's interrogator or the person who oversaw his interrogations and and let's get a hold of her. What's her name? Her name's Angie LeClaire. Angela Clare was the very first graduate of Delfi, Los Angeles. So it's when all these people that kind of went into the Sea Org and in the in the 90s and in the 2000s, their parents of Scientologists are children of Scientologists.

And in a lot of cases, they're students from Delfi. When you go when when you get into the Sea Org, if you're like a new Scientologist and you joined the sea organization, you have to do all the indoctrination that you would have to do to become a Sea Org member. And there's all these different courses and all this different training that you have to do. When I joined the Sea Org, that the indoctrination period took two weeks where sometimes it could take people two months.

It took two weeks for me because I'd already done all of the indoctrination while at Delfi. Right, right, right, of course. Yes, so and so you guys point, I mean, parents, Scientology parents are just really quick to hand over their children to the Sea Org. But even before that, as far as I was mentioning at the top of the podcast, was your parents ceased to become your parents as soon as they began to be Scientologists.

They don't think for themselves. They don't. Everything is about what does L. Ron Hubbard say, pulling out the books? Yeah, reading this to your children verbatim, having your children follow these things verbatim. But even past that, even past just the what would LRH say and what does L. Ron Hubbard tell me to do? They start sending their children to Scientology organizations that are run by Sea Org members, now, suer members are dressed in military uniforms.

They are set up as the most ethical beings on the planet. The only hope for mankind. And these are the men and women who your children are being sent to for confessing that they stole something or being promiscuous. They Scientology parents send their children to the sewer. Yeah. And these men and women and by the way, children running the Sea Org are in these military uniforms with epaulets. I mean, the whole the lanyards, they they have a formidable, formidable presence that as a child, you're petrified your.

Oh, my God, my parents kowtow to these people. So they must be really powerful. And there's all these posters up of Suer remembers in military uniforms and military hats, and it says, we're the only hope mankind has and we're the only ones doing anything about it. And they set themselves up as. Your primary caretaker, totally, and so the reason I bring this up continuously is because we can we continue to be asked, why did you stay and why are you shocked by the behavior of Scientology and Scientologists, even your own parents, when they do hate videos about you lie or break the law?

All of this is shocking to us because we know we're telling the truth, but also because as children. And into adulthood, I mean, adults are being handled by Sea Org members. I mean, if you're a Scientologist, you were reporting to the Sea Org, you are given well, this is what's going on at work. So you remember sitting across. This is what you need to do. Or my husband wants my children. This is what you need to do.

All that's going on, that's going on. This is what you need to do. They're dictating your life. Grown men and women don't know how to think for themselves. And that is why in a lot of cases, the children pick Scientology or the parents pick Scientology over their own family because that is their primary caretaker. So whether or not they're abusive or not, those who have been in abusive relationships or have parents that were abusive, yeah, most will protect their abuser.

Yeah, no, it's tough because that's their primary caretaker and that's what we all did. And so you growing up in this environment and being sent a clear message, as we all were, that Scientology took precedence over being a parent and protecting you. Mark, this makes sense why you would join the Sea Org at 15 and remain in the Sea Org for most of your adult lives, just so with Mike, same with me as a Scientologist. Like it makes sense why we need all I ever do.

That's and that was your primary caretaker, right. And why it's easy to walk away from your parents and your husband and your wife is because you really don't have a bond with with your parents, as you do with Scientology, who take over being your parent.

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And even what I joined at 15, you said, well, you're still going to have to go to school until you're 16 because it's not legal for you just to not go to school. Right. And so but then as soon as you get this, I got to the you out there like, well, you're working inside the Hollywood guarantee building.

Who's going to know you're not at school?

And that's a thing people ask us that all the time. Like, why are parents like, why isn't anybody reporting these kids being abused? Why is nobody reporting that these kids are not getting an education or go, yeah, well, everyone see it on it.

Yeah. Everyone the Scientology parent is in total agreement with how you're being raised. And if you called your mom and said, mom, I'm not eating or, you know, this is illegal, I'm working from 8:00 in the morning till midnight.

Well, every night, even when I so I was so naive. So the first week I'm there working at a table, I'm thinking, well, you know, I'm supposed to go to school like once or twice a week.

Like maybe I and I think at some point someone said, yeah, yeah, you could just go to school on the weekends. I work on post during the week and then on Saturday and Sunday you'll go off to school. And then Saturday came along and I was like, am I supposed to do like the school thing and the like?

And I think it was actually it might have been Rena. No, it was actually this girl named Veronica Kegl. She was the person who was over my area. And she said, listen, you're like fifteen and a half or whatever it is. By the time anyone figures out you're not in school, you're not going to be to go to school. So I never went to one day of school once I joined the CIA as well as is true with most of your children.

Yeah, it was. And it was. And there were tons of other kids there that worked at what we call it, the HGV, the Hollywood Garraty building. And it houses I think it made a house like eight or nine different Scientology organizations and we all had different schedules and we work for different people. But we were all we were all coming in at eight o'clock in the morning and we were all leaving at midnight. Right. And there was probably I don't know what several hundred people that worked in that building.

And if you worked in that building, you were a Sea Org member no matter what. And there was a few people at that time, and this was my case as well for Abel and for another group called Wise, which is the Worldwide Institute of Scientology Enterprises. And that's sort of like a front group for getting chiropractors and dentists and sort of business people kind of bamboozled into Scientology so that they can, you know, use Scientology in their business practice.

Right. Right. So able and wise, we're getting paid minimum wage.

So most Sea Org members were making like thirty to forty dollars a week at that time.

But if you worked at a bowl or you worked at Wise, you had to get minimum wage because at the time this was in 1989, 1990, they were trying to get tax exemption from the IRS. And so if you worked at a or wise, technically, those weren't Scientology, those were these secular. I don't remember what they called it, but they called it the oh, they were social betterment corporations was what Abel was running. And and wise was a business activity that had nothing to do with Scientology on paper.

Right. Yeah. So we had to get minimum wage and I thought, well damn, I'm working one hundred, ten hours a week, I'm going to get loaded. And they're like, well no, you're we're only going to pay for 40 hours.

I'm like, well I mean you're going to if you're going to follow the rules to follow the rules, let's follow the one hundred and ten hour part.

You know, I'm going to assume that didn't happen. Mark No, I got 40. But this is even the better part is that for a long time we were getting the 40 hours a week. But then they figured out, well, you guys are getting too much money. So now we're going to make you pay for your food and then we're going to make you pay for the berthing where we live, the apartment that we lived in. And then that way that would kind of take us down a peg.

The Scientology owned building. Yes, we would have to pay.

We would actually pay the Scientology organization that fed us would have to pay them money, and then we'd have to pay the site.

The Scientology, whoever was paying the rent for the apartment we lived in, we'd have to pay that to them so that they could then pay the rent to the apartment building. And and we still had some money left over. And eventually I was just like, well, I'm not paying you guys for food because your food sucks. I'm going to go down to Sandy Berger on Hollywood Boulevard for lunch and well, it sounds like you had a great life marked the way you're setting it up.

It sounds amazing.

I mean, I'm leading I'm leading up to the punchline. OK, so I became the treasury secretary, the vice president for Treasury. They were like, when you pay everybody this week, you just need to get him to sign the checks. So you write them checks and then you have them sign them and then you just deposit it back into the bank account. And so so I would write them their payroll check for the minimum wage and then I would get them to endorse the checks and then take the checks back from them.

So I would literally give you a check saying here, here's your check for the week ahead and sign the back of it and give it back to me, because I'm going to go redeposit that back into the bank.

And then what's the response of your members when they were they were like basically told me to go fuck myself. Most of them, they're like, you know, that ain't going to happen. And I said, well, listen, it's an order. It's come down from the top. You've got to do it. And probably 80 percent of them did it. But when I got to the bank with those checks, the teller at the bank was like, you can't do this.

And I was like, what? She's like, yeah, this is super illegal. You can't write somebody a payroll check and then have all of them endorse it and then come back here and deposit it back into the bank. And so that whole sign over your paycheck back to the org thing lasted about an hour. And then I had to go around like with my tail between my legs and give everybody their checks back that way.

But regardless, I mean, I don't want to I don't want to set up the picture that people were getting paid. No.

Then we were we were making a few hundred dollars for a hundred and ten hours of work a week, which is basically slave labor.

I mean, if you compare what Sea Org members make in the United States, it's actually less than what people consider slave labor in China Sea. Org members work more hours a week and they're paid less and they get less time off than what is internationally can. Sintered slave labor. That's how a Sea Org member makes about thirty five cents an hour. That's the rate, the average wage wage of a Sea Org member based on the hours they work and based on the amount of pay they get.

And so in China, it's 40 cents an hour is the average slave wage. So more so despite all that, you've found your way to the international gold base, which is the the where the top yes, the the top executives strata of Scientology lived and worked with David Miscavige in Hemet, California.

Or what does it say, though, about what is is.

It's Gilman Hot Springs, Riverside County in Riverside County.

If you duck the Hemet people and the San Jacinto people, they're very specific about Hemet and San Isidro not being the same. But they're like Scientology is not in our city here. But yes. And the reason and the only reason I even got to that headquarters place is because a girl that I was friends with, a Delfi, she worked at the base and she put my name on a list and that's how I ended up there.

So you ended up got it. So you ended up at the international base and you ran the studios there. You were promoted to the producer of Gold and the director of ABC Systems responsible for the AP systems for all organizations and missions. And you were there from, uh, for how long, Mark? How long were you there?

I was there for 15 years from 1990, and I left in January of two thousand five. You escaped and you wrote a book called Blown for Good. We'll put that up on our website. You escaped with the help of, ironically, the help of. The sheriff's department there, Riverside County Sheriff's Department. Well, I mean, yes, they helped me escape because somebody called 911 one. That's really the because they saw.

So so we just quickly just run through this. Mark, you and your wife, Claire Headley, lived somewhat off the base of this base. We live next to it.

We live right next to it. And a house.

And you were in your on your motorcycle. You escaped. They came after you. They hit you with their with their SUV. Somebody saw that call nine one one. The sheriff's department responded. You didn't tell him what happened. There's reasons why you just wanted to get out out of there. Understood you. I know you have busted your balls about this because you could have had them. And I look like I could have had them, but I thought I know, but I said, well, I can say that over a thousand moments.

And no one was.

I was I was eight seconds out. I get it.

I get it. But they did hit you in your car. They did hit you ran me.

They ran me off the road one. I was on a motorcycle escaping on a motorcycle. The security guards in the in the in their SUV ran me off the road and somebody saw that and called nine one one. All right.

And the sheriff's department help you. They asked you who did it. You just said, I just want to go. I just want to I just want to get out of here. And they assisted you to get to ultimately your dad because they knew they knew that I was trying to escape, even though I didn't tell them I was trying to escape.

So they basically called me on it and said, listen, I told them a song and dance. I'm just trying to go to my dad. They said, listen, where are you trying to get to? I said, I'm trying to get to the U-Haul in San Jacinto. And they said, great, we're going to call for backup and we're going to escort you there. One car in front and one car behind you. We're going to drive you to that U-Haul.

Right. And we're all doing that. Yeah. Two different Scientology operatives tried to follow us and they ended up pulling them over on two separate incidents and telling them you're impeding with a police investigation, stop following this guy. And that was a guy by the name of Bruce Wagner in a Honda Acura and another woman by the name of Muriel Defraying, who is the kind of like the Keystone Cops PR girl gal at that international base.

And she's actually just go and she's actually the one that tipped them off because I was giving them the whole song and dance like, oh, I'm just trying to go see my dad. I'm there's no problem. These guys and I, we just had a misunderstanding. And then she pulls up while the cops actually talking to me and says, what's wrong with Mark? And they and the cop recognized her from being from the Scientology headquarters. And then he immediately was like, oh, this guy's trying to escape.

And so he said, nothing's wrong, ma'am. Go ahead, move along. And as soon as she drove off, that's when he said, dude, where are you trying to get to? And I said, I'm trying to give you. He's like, OK, let's get you there. Like, let's let's cut through all the nonsense you're trying to escape. We're going to help you. And Muriel is the person that that infamously said in one of those interactions with the police.

You can leave any time you want.

Yeah, you kind of can. Having to run you over. Well, you know, whatever.

But you could do this is this is the classic lie that is told about Sea Org members that they can you know, they're free to leave whenever they want. And anybody who has been in the Sea Org and particularly anybody who has been at the international base knows just what a complete, absolute outrageous lie that is. Yeah.

I mean, they were like chasing her. They were chasing Mark down in an SUV and driving them off the road because he was free to leave whenever he wanted.

Yeah. Leah, when when went for the 15 years I was there. I would say I don't know, two hundred people escaped. It was escaping was a pretty regular occurrence, like so much so that like David Miscavige would get let known each day who'd escaped that day or if somebody had escaped that day, it was like it was a regular conversation.

And so you knew if you left, you knew they were coming after you. You knew they were going to go to the bus stations. You knew they were going to go to the airport. You knew they were going to go to your relative's house. You knew they were going to go to the friends you have. And when you sign up in the Sea Org and I never realized this until afterwards because I was so naive and oblivious. But when you fill out your life history form to join the Sea Org, you give them your mother's maiden name.

You give them every address you've ever lived, that you give them all of the info that they would need to get to get into your phone, your bank, your credit card. You give them all of that info, mother's maiden name, date of birth, social and everything, so they can very easily find you if you have a bank card. Not a lot of people did. If you have any kind of relatives, they have all of that information.

And within a matter, I would say within an hour, they pretty much have a list of everywhere that you could possibly go once you leave. Right. And send people to all of those locations.

It doesn't matter if it's in San Francisco or if it's in San Diego or if it doesn't, it doesn't matter if it's in St. Lucia.

I mean, they're going to no matter if it was in South Africa.

So it kind of Khalaji has very limited, limited amount of tax exempt money at their discretion.

And this is another thing a lot of people don't know. They also at the base, they have their own travel agent who has access to all the airlines he can get you a ticket to anywhere from anywhere on any airline possible.

And he also he also probably knows who probably has information.

He does and will say, well, that's impossible. He doesn't have information. Well, yeah, you know what? He doesn't have he doesn't have the first name. He can see the last name. That's all they see is the last name.

What we are to say. Like I was going to say, this absolutely is the case. Airline reservations. One hundred percent are available. And people say, well, you know, you can't walk into a travel agent and they're not going to tell you who l you know, you can't walk in. Your travel agent say, does Mark heavily have a reservation from Denver to Washington, D.C. next week? And they're going to say, are you kidding me?

We're not we're not telling you that.

Well, they could if they wanted to if they were a psychologist, they would tell you because they have access to SABR, which is the airline reservations computerization system. Yeah, that's the thing.

Like, I know people people ask that, too. Why have you told the authorities. Yes. Why cancel the rest. Yes. Mark Headley, Claire Headley. They have all told the authorities of the abuses and the criminal activities that have gone on in the Church of Scientology since it was bought and invented. Yeah, so either way, we knew you knew what was going to happen when you left and through the times that I was there, they have a thing called the blood drill.

So if some blow is an unauthorized departure, that's the Scientology term for when you leave without approval. They call it a blow. And there I can think I think I made a list one time. It was like 50 people who had blown and were gotten back from that blow drill. So they escaped. And then a week later, poof, you see, and I'm assuming we were on the property for the night.

And I'm assuming the reason why they're so concerned with people, especially leaving the gold base or any secret base of Scientology is because of the things that you guys have witnessed unexpectedly. One hundred percent. The beatings, the. Yeah, the abuse.

So also just a secret crazy Scientology stuff like that was the thing that I found most fascinating is that I would start telling Scientologists these stories after I escaped. They would say like, well, you know, I can't believe you're not sorting this out. And I'd be like sorting it out. Like, you have this you have this idea that everyone in Scientology follows Scientology policies.

Exactly. The only people that are made to follow the Scientology policies are the Scientologists, the public, the paying people at the base. We don't there's no Scientology policy being followed on that.

That's what was the most shocking to me, to what I know you would tell me here, the process of this. And I was like, what are you.

Yeah. You know, you keep talking about the policy. Nobody gives a shit about the policy. And you'd be like, well, aren't people writing knowledge reports? I'd be like Leha a knowledge report. Has it been written at the base for many years? And even if they're written, they're never read or acted on. It's just a giant waste of paper. But but. But but Scientologists would hear these stories and they'd be like, I can't believe that that Ray Medoff is being beat up.

Oh, yeah, Ray Madoff was. I mean, he was I wasn't beat up as much as Mike, but he was beat up a lot. He was picked on. Maybe he might even have been picked on even more than Mike. But I don't know, I wasn't there for all those meetings as I was in gold. So I would see these guys being beaten up. And I was in a lower organization. And that was for a long time.

They kept this appearance up for the international organizations. They were all high and mighty. And if you were in gold, you were the scum of the fucking base. You were shit. And you were like you were just you were lowlifes. But if you were in the CMO, the Commodore's Messenger or you were in international management where you guys were the ass kickers, and if you were an RTC, I mean, the sun might as well have shown out of your ass.

I mean, that was sort of like the hierarchy. But then in the 90s, I would say in the late 90s, David Miscavige, he just started talking shit about everybody. If they were an RTC, if they were in international, he didn't give a shit. It was like, everyone sucks and everyone is a suppressive and every single person at this property is trying to kill me. And you're like, whoa. Like he thinks he thinks.

Mike Rinder is an op ed in the ghetto. The is and Espie like he's right. He's writing to them. He's actually writing to them as suppressive. Mike Rinder, like that document was sent to Mike Rinder and I was on it and it said, Mike Rinder, Suppressive. And you're like, is this reality? Like, this is insanity? And then at the same time, you're going like. Why is he writing to a suppressive if he's suppressive, like David Miscavige is writing to people saying, this is what I want you to do, like here are the action items for you for this week or this month.

You suppressants like you're like if this is oppressive, you should be the fuck out of here. Why is he writing to them like it just so that that world was so insanely crazy? Yes. That yes, of course, if anyone told what they saw at that place to a Scientologist, they would not be a Scientologist. That's right.

I don't I don't know about that because for one thing, every single person that I've talked to that was a Scientologist that I've spent two hours talking to. They're not a Scientologist that we're in. Yes, I have.

Well, good for you, Leah. I was I was doing a job for a sports bar in Santa Monica, and I was doing all this work for them and Scientology. This is after I left and Scientology would send pies to my clients to fuck with them. And they would try to basically make me look like I was hiring thieves that escaped from because when I left, I kind of isolated. The thing you need when you first leave, you need a job and you need a place to stay.

That's the two things you need and maybe a vehicle depending on how. Philanthropy, my philanthropy is doing you need maybe need a vehicle, do those three things are the things you need to kind of get back on your feet. And so I was hiring I probably hired 30 people that escaped from Scientology and I would hire them and I'd have them do work for me. And then Scientology would come to the places of business that I was doing a job for.

And they'd say, Have you seen this guy? He escaped or he he stole a bunch of stuff from Scientology and then left. And so I was doing this sports bar and it was for owners and they said, hey, these guys came by today looking for this kid that you got working for you.

And I said, oh, and until this time, my kind of my past Scientology life and my new life had not really crossed over. So I said, listen, I want to meet with you guys. I got to tell you some stuff. And I sat down with the four owners and I said I used to work at Scientology's headquarters in the desert at the secret compound. And and I escaped with the help of police. And now I'm sort of kind of like an underground railroad whistleblower slash just pain in their ass.

And they look they all three of them looked at one of the owners who was a Scientologist. He was Elizabeth Moss twin.

It's all reading her her he was her student partner at the Celebrity Center in Hollywood. This guy, he was an actor. He was on TV shows. He's been in all kinds of stuff. And he was the owner of a sports bar in Santa Monica. And and he was like he was in disbelief. He was like, dude, you're awesome. We've been working for us. I can't believe you're a suppressive. And I was just like, dude, I'm like, I could be top ten right now, like currently a living space, you know?

But this is pre Mike Rinder to know. Mike Rinder. There were no Leia's floating around. It was just us, us, us ogg's, as you say, anyway. But I spent two and a half hours talking to him and that was it. He was done. He hasn't.

Well, you're your baby. Jeez. Because there was some truth. You go for you. I know. Are you? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Staying here with us are really all there are.

Yeah. Like a it. Yeah.

All that Cooper. Yeah. Well yeah but I'm X base that's.

Yes that's exactly right. And even more so he left. That was it. And then he started addition to his best friends with Tom Cruise's agent and I was like he was telling me stories from like last week in Scientology but he left Scientology after he did right after that I said he never he never went back.

Amazing. Good bye. But wait, wait.

But either way, it wasn't I didn't talk it. And this is and this is how this is my system. What however you want to say, right or wrong, my system is not to attack the philosophy of Scientology. You can never win because Scientology programs you as soon as you start talking about the the philosophy or the policies or any of that, they're their blinders go up. They go now at Squirtle. They can't talk about that. They'll talk about that.

Just talk about the actual crimes and the wrong and the things that are not per the Scientology policies and not per the philosophy that they're doing. And David Miscavige beating the shit out of people and torturing people and throwing fat, overweight old people into swimming pools, just all that kind of stuff, that that just blows their mind. And there's no way to there's no way for their circuitry that they've been programmed in Scientology. There's no way for them to override that.

And none of that work, none of that work work on my friends where I was in. And I was saying, guys, this is what's going on like that, like rule the world or leaving. And they're claiming they're being beaten. And well, here's the only other Chelly hasn't been seen. And I wrote standard reports I was told to write in Scientology. I did that.

Well, here's the here's the only thing where my system falls apart, and that's when you start getting into the business relationships and the family relationships. So you were very lucky that you somehow left and you kept your family, your close family. Yes. A lot of people who've been in for a long time, there's no way for them to do that. And if that is a if that's a button or if that's some weakness that they have that they cannot leave with and leave their family, well, then there's no way around that.

There's those people in their heart of hearts could be like, I know Scientology is the most horrible thing ever, but I can't leave my kids. I can't leave my kids. And that and that's the part what they already have.

That's the part that's so. And that's what I tried to explain to them. And as I go once, the last time you went on a vacation and just did a road trip across, you know, what was the last time?

You gave a real shit about your own child. Exactly when's the last time, when's the last time you were like part of the PTO and you like we're making sure the kids were, you know. Yeah, you got you're not you're you've already not you're you're when you become a Scientologist, you become another version of yourself that doesn't have a family. So you're not you don't see your kids. You don't care about your kids. Yeah. I don't care about your kids.

You should come out of Scientology. Exactly.

But I don't think it's the family. Say your daughter. Your son. I think it's Scientology as a collective. Yeah.

And and the relationship. Yes, exactly. Exactly. And also a lot of and where you live, it's also all about appearances and in in L.A. So if if your friend is, you know, Melinda Blackstone or whatever and she's got all these connections, I know I'm saying her name wrong, but if she's got all these connections, she's going to lose. If she stays your friend, well, she's not going to be your friend anymore.

And that's the shitty thing about Scientologists is they are loyal to a fault with Scientology most of the time. But if you can show them. If you can show them how supporting Scientology is just basically a horrible thing to do and that really you got to take you've got to make a sacrifice, you have to find work. You have to make a sacrifice so that we can end this thing called Scientology. If that doesn't mean if that means I can't talk to my mom and my sister.

Well, but it's for the for everybody in Scientology, not just for my mom and sister. This is bigger than Mike and Leah and Mark this. We're talking about thousands of people's lives that are being ruined. Agreed, I agreed and I was going to bring that up. Mark, when you when you left you your your mother and sister. And half brother all disconnected from you, right? So you have your your mother doesn't know her grandchildren, your brother doesn't know your sister doesn't know her nieces.

I'm in her nephews.

I haven't seen my brother, my sister since 2005 or talk to them ever once. My and my sister called my dad last year.

My dad passed away last December and my sister hadn't spoken to him in 15 years. And she talked to him on the phone for 20 minutes the day before he passed away. Right, and that was the only contact she had with him since he helped me, he didn't do anything. He didn't even he didn't even say anything about Scientology. He just helped me escape. That was it. That was his crime. Well, he didn't help you escape, Muk.

He helped you. With somewhere to live. Yes. How when you escaped, escaped, help me escape to somewhere.

And for that, your sister wouldn't talk to. Yeah, my sister or my mother, and actually we went to a funeral, my my uncle's funeral, my mom's brother, and at that funeral. She told her family that we if we if she talked to Stephanie, my sister Stephanie, or my mom talked to Claire myself or my dad, Bernie, that they would be risking mankinds all all of mankind's future eternity. I mean, her family, her family are not have it don't have anything to do with Scientology.

They that was a hard pill to swallow for them. What if you talk to Mark mankind's future eternity?

And I don't think I want to spare everybody at home. Don't think of your mother as just kind of the exception. Well, that's Mark's father. She's an extremist Scientologist. Well, is this whole heartedly, yeah, yeah, and they told when we first when I first started talking out about Scientology mainly in 2006, I was just writing about things like I was just correcting stuff on the Internet. Like I would read these just crazy things like, oh, they're they have secret spaceships at their headquarters and sent in Gilman Hot Springs and, you know, just ridiculously crazy stuff.

And I'd be like, listen, that's not I don't know about spaceships. I worked there for 15 years. I didn't see any spaceships except for the ones we built to shoot in a movie or something. But I was just saying, people getting beat up. I wrote this story about musical chairs and that one that got a lot of traction.

And that actually was a very good story to show Scientologists. Listen, this musical chairs thing ain't got nothing to do with policy. You can read the musical chairs policy. There's a policy that L. Ron Hubbard called musical chairs. When you move people around in Scientology on their posts and it destabilizes the organizations when you do that. Well, yeah, no, this game of musical chairs, he did kind of give any kind of story to tell you about.

That was that was in good. Basically we basically yeah. It ended up being in that going in the Lawrence Wright book, which then also was highlighted in the Going Clear movie on HBO. But he basically played a game of musical chairs with all of the international management, staff members, Sea Org members, and whoever was left at the end of the game could stay there with him and rebuild, quote unquote, Scientology. What about us?

And everyone else was going to get sent off to the worst possible Scientology would be purposely falling over myself, tripping myself out of these toilets.

Not a few pictures of these toilets he showed us and in Canada, but. All right.

But anyway, this story was the story was told in going clear. I don't want to go over it again. Yeah.

Either way, he was going to split. And if you were married, he was going to split you up. It was just a horrible torture session. Right.

And and so but that was that was that was the every day. Yes. That was a Tuesday. Yeah. Yeah. Right, right.

You would go if you went to a meeting. Mike can back this up if you went to a meeting with David Miscavige, the very possibility you're walking out with a Band-Aid on somewhere in your body. And if he didn't if he didn't physically attack you personally, he would throw shit at you. Like he'd have these manila file folders with papers and VHS cassettes and all kinds of weird stuff, binder clips of them. And you could get one of those hurled at you just you're not even paying attention.

You could just be like staring out the window and you could just get Boake right up against the side of the head with a file folder, with a VHS package in it.

And and that was and that was an every single day occurrence. If you went to a meeting and there was not a physical altercation, that was like that was a good meeting. No one got beat up in that meeting. So, so, so, so, so, Mark, you you escaped, like I said, in in 2005 and you wrote a book. Voting for good about growing up or in Scientology and leaving Scientology, but so you left.

Yeah. What happened to you when you left? When you started speaking out?

So when I started posting, I started posting on the Internet under the name blown for good because I told you they would get people back. And I was like, now I can't get me back. So I started posting and there was a very big program to figure out who this blown for good guy was. And I would post kind of things that would I would think like that's going to get them off my scent a little because I know they're going to figure it out.

They have ways of doing this, but I'm going to try and keep the ruse going as long as possible. And they actually were starting to pull in people that in my circle. So I had a bunch of ex Scientology friends that had also left from the base and my wife and I and we were kind of like a little group and and I was actually starting to recruit more people. Like, I would be like, hey, dude, I found I tracked down Jeff Hawkins.

Holy shit. Let's invite him to our party. Hey, I tracked down Amy Scobee. Let's have her come to our ASPEY party. And we'd have these parties every few months called an ESPE party, and we would just start collecting more and more people. And each time we'd find somebody, they'd know two people. Well, this pissed Scientology off to no end. And we actually had, I would say, at least three or four Espie parties that oza the Office of Special Affairs, the dirty tricks Bureau of Scientology.

They had people that were my friends that were working for Oza to to basically report up on the party. And so I started to see and and like notice things like, hmm, that's a little weird. And when you leave when you're an ex Scientologist and you and you leave Scientology and you start telling stories and, oh, people are following me, everyone's like, this is just so crazy paranoid. All these ex Scientologists are just paranoid. And I would be like, no, I swear.

I think somebody somebody's following me. I get this weird feeling. They're always people following me. Anyway, and then there was this weird guy that was around our neighborhood, and then I was invited to go to an international conference in Hamburg, Germany, to basically to talk to a group of European Union police forces and their equivalent of like the FBI and law enforcement for all of Europe. So Denmark and Germany and Italy, all these got France. And when I went there, I went with a guy named Jason and when we were at the airport.

For to leave from LAX, we got given these flyers, the big broadsheets, and it was basically a picture of Jason and a picture of me, and it was it was all the horrible stuff. We all these horrible things about us. Unfortunately, it was in German, so I couldn't read it. I was like, that's a good picture. But I don't know about any of the stuff you wrote because I don't speak of the German anyway.

And then I sort of thought, OK, I'm definitely on their radar. They definitely know it's me. They definitely know I'm up to no good. And when Jason and I were waiting in the lounge at the airport, I said, those two dudes right there, those are our guys. I said, I bet you money. They said either right in front of us or right behind us on the plane. And sure enough, they sat right behind us the entire way to Germany.

When we got to Germany, we were booked at a hotel by the German, basically like the Secret Service. Secret Service of the German government is the one who booked our hotel.

When we got came down for breakfast in the morning at the hotel that the German Secret Service booked, those two guys were sitting at the breakfast table right across from us.

Well, they could have followed you. Well, yeah, but either way, we had so since about I'd say about twenty six. I've had his private investigators hired by lawyers of Scientology following me, taking my kids to school at the supermarket. Any time one of these ASPE parties happened, they had people in there. And funnily enough, when Mike Rinder left. Do you live in 2007, Mike? Yep, when he left in 2007, he found some thumb drive kicking around and he's like, Hey, Mark, I found this thumb drive on it.

It's got your dossier in it. I was like, my what? And he had all of the communications between Oza and RTC about who blown forgood is about Mark's birthday party coming up, who we've got going to go into the party. They had three different people going to my party that didn't know the other two people were spies for them to report up on anything that was said or done. They had they had set up fake business opportunities for me to go and bid on a job that then they would claim me of doing and correct and then sue me.

Right. They had an entire lawsuit drawn up by Ken Moxon and Oza of suing me for telling all the secrets that I knew about the base and all the notes like we can't say this. We need this data to become overt. It's covert information. Like they had a whole list of covert information that they had gathered and on their plans to make it overt information. They had my phone records. Leah, who I called, who I talked to, how long I talk to them in summarised pages for months.

And this is on top of creating a hate website on you, having your family know this was on top of harassing me, not letting me talk to my family, sending me and my wife a bill for I think it was one hundred and fifty three thousand dollars saying that we owed them for all the training and all the interrogations I got on their.

Easy, big lie detector at their at their request.

Yeah, at their at their at their insistence on top of on top of working for them for for 15 years ago.

30 minute sound good. I worked one hundred and ten hours a week for 15 years. I got paid a total of twenty nine thousand dollars for the entirety of that 15 years.

The first six months after I escaped, I made more in six months phoning it in. By the way, I was working three hours a day on some days. I made more in six months than I made in 15 years working for Scientology.

And, you know, I'm I'm really I'm only pointing out, Mark, that they actually had the balls to to a bill. And so how long did the harassment I mean, has the harassment ended? I mean, here we are. We're twenty twenty one. Yeah. So finally left you alone, Mark. Well, asking you, your wife, your children, because the same with Claire, I mean your wife, all of her family disconnected.

Yeah. Know grandparents don't have relationships with their sons and daughters and their and their grandchildren destroyed your relationship with your dad. Thank God he was there for you and you were there for her. And I'm so glad that you had your time together before his passing. Yeah. But I mean, it just never ends with Scientology. I mean, listen, I could I can be your name right now, Mark. I could fill up your website. Unclear.

I mean, I think it's who has Mark Headley Dotcom and they paid for that. They pay to make that the top search result. And they've been paying Google for that since, I would say, 2006, 2007. But I don't have I don't have the hundreds and hundreds of domains that you and Mike have. But I might have ten. But but yeah, they my dad, actually, he would keep up with the sites like he would say, oh, there's a a new video up on you.

Now to full disclosure, I have never, ever been to my hate website that Scientology is created because I know it's really just for me, it doesn't they don't care if anybody else goes to it. They really want me to go to it and watch the videos. I've never watched a video. I've never been to the site. But my dad would go to it all the time. And I would say, Dad, it's just a bunch of nonsense.

He's like, I know, but it's the only chance I have to see your sister because she's doing hate videos on there. And I know it was.

But but he could get it. He could get he could see her. From this year or whenever it was, he could see videos of her and what she looked like currently and he could see her talking and he could kind of get the essence of her, but that was the only way he could see her was to go to my hate website. And he actually. He came to me one time, this is this was this was last year, actually, he came to me, says, hey, your mom put up a video about you.

And I said, all right. I said, you know, Dad, I don't go to that because, you know, I don't want to get riled up. And I know whatever they're saying on there's crazy goes. He goes, well, you got to hear it, though. I said, OK, Dad, I'll I'll. Oh, you mean what did I do now? He goes, He tried to drown your mom when you were seven years old.

And I said, What?

He goes, Yeah, evidently you were in the pool and you tried to drown her when you were seven. And I was like, well, first of all, I have a seven year old. If he tried to drown me, I would just stand there. So I don't really know and I don't know even know how my seven year old would try to drown me. But OK, fine. But I would always I would always tell him to go to the side.

I know I had to go to see my sister.

He he he didn't care. He wanted to see her, whether she was talking shit or not. But and that's how he kept up with her over the years, was to watch her doing eight videos on me on my website. And then he like I said, she did call him. And we even then she called him and spoke to him. We were in the hospital with him and in all of my cousins and his sisters and all his all we have a huge family here in Colorado and they all came and saw him and went through and it was a big deal.

And he called his sisters on the phone. And and when my sister called, we were all so happy because he got diagnosed with cancer in 2004. Lung cancer and then again in 2014, he was diagnosed with lung cancer and he was given three months to live in 2014, and then he outlived that expectation, obviously. But then in two, I want to say a few years later, he was diagnosed with brain cancer and they gave him three months to live then as well.

And he outlived that. And he just kept going. And we really did think the only thing keeping him around was the the just the desire to be able to talk to my sister again. And so he he did. He did. He stuck stuck around for a lot longer. But they basically stole my sister from him for no good reason whatsoever. And at least he got to talk to her for 20 minutes the day before he passed. But that's like that's just every day in Scientology.

They don't say means nothing to them. And she didn't come to the funeral.

My mom didn't come to the funeral. They didn't send flowers. They didn't send a card, nothing. She talked to him for 20 minutes. And then it was just like, you're out. And even that 20 minutes. He didn't he he kind of he kind of played it down. OK, we'll get it right next time. Yeah, way back to Scientology. Yeah.

And my dad was nice to a fault, too. He wouldn't he wouldn't say, stop it, stop with fucking bullshit.

He always he would always air on the side of. You know, she's not saying it, it's someone's telling her to say it, it's not her, it's it's Scientology, you know, so it is what it is.

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And she and he's not wrong in that either. I mean, again, this is, you know, Scientology parents and their children over to Scientology. What you know at this point, what you expect. Yeah. And at the end of the day, they choose Scientology.

They collected my trash every week. They when we moved from California to Colorado, they had people in cars with cameras hanging out of the windows, filming us in the moving truck driving.

They followed us for maybe an hour or two out of Los Angeles just driving in a moving truck, but they filmed driving in a moving truck.

So what does this what does all of this get the at the end of the day, destroying someone's family, keeping grandparents from knowing their grandchild? We're spending millions and millions of dollars on following people. And, you know, I think I think it's garbage hiring.

I just want to make an example for their parishioners. At the end was simple.

It was an example of if you leave, we're going to fuck your shit up if I guess we don't.

But I guess what? You don't fuck our shit up because guess what? Marc and Claire are happy. They have beautiful children. They they created a life for themselves that is devoid of of of this hatred day in and day out for mankind.

I mean, you always try you know, there were there I'll tell you earlier, there were periods where I went through a very in the early, early days after I left, where I went through mainly when we were we had a lawsuit where we were suing Scientology. And I was spending a lot of money to keep the lawsuit going and trying to keep my business going and having three boys and everything else.

And there were periods that I would go through like a bit of a depression. And no matter what, I would put on a good show and a happy face to make it like, no, Scientology is not winning. You know, I don't give a shit about their lawsuit. I don't care if they were winning.

I don't care if you were putting on a happy face. I understand we're winning. Yeah. Even if they won legally, I mean, they have millions. They have been the top notch lawyers in every state. Yeah.

On retainer even in the end, because we sued them, there was a ton of information that made it into the public domain stuff that they did.

That is that is legally on file. And there was another lawsuit. There was a bunch of lawsuits that were filed at the same time as ours. Like people. I basically said, hey, if you this happened to you, you might have a case. You should talk to a lawyer. And so there were several lawsuits that got filed. And one of those lawsuits, they did end up settling with those people. And those people did get a good, good chunk, I assume, out of Scientology.

But no matter what the word got out about, the beatings and a lot of those things became deposed, facts that, like these people said this in a legal document so it can be reported on.

It could be movies can be made, books can be written. And then also when we lost, we had to pay them. I think they sent us they actually sent us a letter. We couldn't believe it. They sent us a letter saying, listen, you always fifty five thousand dollars in legal fees.

They fast tracked this thing so that it got approved by the court. And they said, if you don't pay this, we're going to aggressively collect like we're going to try to take your house, take your vehicles and whatever we can. But if you spy for us, if you become a spy for Oza and talk about all the communications you have with Mike Rinder and Marty Rathbun and turn over the rights to my book, if I do all these things, then they will forgive the fifty five thousand dollars.

And and I just said Big sent them a big F you and a cheque for fifty five thousand dollars and then amazing.

And then but this is the best part.

And I want to say this because there is a lot of people that helped. We did as my friend Jason said, there's no way you should pay that. Fifty five GS. I said I already paid it, I already wrote him a check. He said well, you should do a fundraiser. One of those go fund me things and you should say, let's get that money back in one week we got fifty five thousand dollars on Go Fund Me and and we got so the fifty five that we paid, we were made completely whole again and we got the money back from just people, a lot of anonymous people, but a lot of people that are, you know, still fighting Scientology to this day threw in a fifty or a 20 or hundred or a thousand or whatever.

But and that was also got a lot of good airtime and press and kind of got the word out that, you know, even after they sent us the bill and they stole 15 years and the whole my whole childhood and everything else, they still they were like, no, we need another fifty five KATU before before we're going to let this one go.

But yeah, they're relentless. They don't I don't think. I don't think there's any way that Scientology is going to get shut down unless people just keep talking about what what their experiences were, what they're doing.

And one of the ways that we found to be able to do that is when the people do leave, if they're vulnerable and they have no place to go. Scientology has this really good system of keeping them in the fold, even though they're basically disgruntled and hate Scientology.

They they rely on their support system of their Scientology business or friends or whatever.

So if you give people some basically resources to be able to escape Scientology and to leave, then they it's better it's a better chance that they're going to tell their story, because Scientology actually sent a group of people around to anyone and everyone who ever left the base. They went around, they hunted these people down and they said, listen, whether they had talked out or not, they said, listen. We're going to give you a check for twenty five thousand dollars, but you've got to sign these papers saying that you will never talk about Scientology for the rest of your life.

Right.

And that is arguably that's a more legal document than whatever paperwork you sign when you're in Scientology, when you receive a payment from somebody and say you won't do something, it's a little bit more binding in some places than if you just say, yeah, I'm not going to say anything and you don't have a lawyer and you don't even know what you're signing. But but so the go ahead. I was going to say the Aftermath Foundation is a foundation that a bunch of us ex Scientologists are part of.

And and we use that to help people get back on their feet. If they do escape from Scientology and have nowhere to go or nowhere to turn, we can help them out with a place to stay or a job or I mean, we've had volunteers all over the world that are like, if anyone needs anything, we're here.

Like, I know you name it. And there have been people offering psychiatrist, therapists, psychologists, people offering their homes, saying if any Scientologist in this area needs a place to stay, a job, the people that own chains and chains of restaurants or such a beautiful thing to see give anybody a job.

I don't care if they have been in the Sea Org their whole life and they only know Scientology still. And I'll still hire.

And I want to say, and I say this to people often, like, you know, if you encounter a person who's in Scientology, in the sea organization because they are walking down the street, not people from gold, the gold base where David Miscavige was and where you guys were. But, you know, we see local churches of Scientology and you see the people walking around the uniforms. There are members or in Florida. In Clearwater, Florida, you could see I mean, they're getting off the buses.

I mean, you know exactly who they are. And I say, please don't ridicule them.

Yeah, that's not illegal.

Yeah, that's and and direct them to the Aftermath Foundation because they can help them. And that's what I tell people. You see it. If you see them, please try to help them get them out. And the Aftermath Foundation is is a beautiful thing that you guys started. And I love talking about it. And we should talk about the bubble and not the bubblehead was originally it wasn't even a thing. Was is a pretended bobblehead. Well, no, it was was one apology.

No Scientology. They actually had a bobblehead.

Yes, they made a bobblehead.

All right. That's right. They also made a marionette of all the days when we would have events, when we would do international events. We did seven events a year all over the world for Scientology. And at these events, you'd have speakers like Mike Rinder, Ray Madoff, Mark Yagur, Gilma, Sev Hiebert, Jesus, all the top top executives.

These are, by the way, have not been seen right along with Shelly Miscavige. Go ahead. Yeah.

And they also, by the way, have all their own hate sites all ready to go, you know that. No. Yes. That all of those names are all registered.

They already have all their domains. So so they have a Who is Mike Rinder site that's got stuff on it. Well, they have a who is Marcu Acre site ready to go. If he jumps over the fence, they just push a button and his sites up and running. So but but David Miscavige would make fun and ridicule these guys while they were on stage rehearsing for these events. He would make fun of them full time. He would talk shit Deamer and he would call Ramit off.

Howdy Do Howdy Doody. Was it now Gunby Biyombo Gambi No EBOs. Howdy Doody. Howdy Doody with Syria raiment of was Gumby and Mark Yeager was cueball because he was bald and he would make fun of them. But the, the making fun of them got really old and he'd already said is what he'd said so many times.

So he actually had professional marionettes made like commissioned.

They looked I mean I don't know if you could get your hands on that, Mike Rinder, when that thing would be invaluable. It was it was amazing. It was amazing.

And so he made bobbleheads and so on.

When you guys did the Aftermath show and Mike was the co-host, they were trying to say, well, it's hard to say whatever Leah wants him to say. He just nods. So they made a bobblehead like you could pay somebody one hundred and fifty bucks to make you a bobblehead, maybe three hundred bucks anyway. They made a bobblehead of Mike Rinder, and that's just sitting there shaking his head. Well, as soon as I saw that bobblehead, I was like, well, first of all, it's wearing a sweater.

I ain't never seen no Mike's sweater where my granddaughter's sweater sounds like he doesn't dress like that. And it didn't it wasn't a really good likeness of him, but it was OK. I was like I could totally knocked out of the park. I could make one way better, make Mike look like a million bucks, sell those for sell those for 30 bucks. And we could make a bunch of money for the Aftermath Foundation. Well, we made we made a I think we made a thousand we sold out of those bobbleheads in a few weeks.

They were gone. And we did make a lot of money for the Aftermath Foundation. And so after many requests and many people pleading with me that they didn't get one, blah, blah, blah, we made a new batch. So we have another. It's a bobblehead. It's eight inches tall. It's got Mike Rinder. He's wearing a nice it's a it's a photo that was taken from the aftermath TV show promotion photos or something. And it's a Mike Rinder bobblehead.

It says Mike Rinder on the bottom of it.

Well, I love it. I think it's amazing. And we sure we're going to put the link on our website so that USPI shop dot com is where you can buy them.

And if you already have a Mike Rinder bobblehead, you can get an ESP bracelet. So and as Scientology, they have these things.

When you get to this level called clear on the bridge to Total Freedom, I still have my by the way, you get your you get a bracelet says clear.

And it's a it's just and it has a number and it has a number on the back. But this I'm telling you, the clear's are clear's are measurable. There's like a few thousand of them. You can keep track of that. There's too many ESPs to keep track if we can't be number in the bracelet.

So it just have to remind everybody hesp means suppressive person, which means enemy of Scientology. You have S.P. bracelets that are safety bracelets.

They're thirty bucks, bobbleheads, thirty bucks. All the profits go to the Aftermath Foundation when that person leaves and they got nowhere to go after Math Foundation hooks them up and we've helped a ton of people and and and at first we didn't even realize how many people we think would be coming. There's a lot of people that that write in and they have like a little thing they can fill out and say what they need and where they're at and what happened.

And and we have a lot of people send in requests. And because of people that either make straight donations, you can also just sign up for Amazon, smile and lift the Afterman Mouth Foundation. So whenever you buy anything from Amazon, it just donates a portion to the Aftermath Foundation. We have people that do fundraisers on Facebook, but there's a lot of people that have donated. This is a way for you to get a little trinket, be part of the community of people that are, you know, speaking out about Scientology and and help the Aftermath Foundation, which is really the only I think it's the only foundation I know of that exists for anything related to Scientology, for people to escape.

I don't think there's any other things set up for anybody to go to.

So I applaud you guys. And it's a beautiful is it Aftermath Foundation dot com or what was the what is the website?

I think it's dot org, the Aftermath Foundation dot org. But I'll include a link, of course. Well, let's have an answer to that question and then been talking so highly of it. Yeah, if you want to donate directly, you can go to the Aftermath Foundation dog and just hit the donate. Thank you so much. Thank you for all the work that you do. Thank you. You and Michael, I mean I mean, I've been doing this since 2006 six, but you guys have accomplished a lot more and a lot shorter amount of time.

So actually, Mark, I'm going to disagree with you.

You know, everybody's work that is involved in helping victims of Scientology, taking down Scientology in their own way. If you if you help one person, you've done everything for them. If you save one family from this, you've done everything. That's I just I think we're all doing our part. Every every everybody is a little part. Big part. It all contributes to the bigger picture, which is we want to stop Scientology from doing what it's doing to people and families.

Yeah, yeah. I think everybody who does anything, including contributing to the Aftermath Foundation, is a part of the bigger picture. And yes, there are some people who are more prominent, but that doesn't mean they're more important. That's true.

That's true. Like, you know, I was listening to that Stephanie Hutchison girl. I mean, she is a firecracker.

That is amazing. And, you know, it's funny because when we were on the events, we knew I mean.

Ninety nine percent of that stuff was bullshit that we say in the events and all the people that are doing doing videos about that. Never in a million years. I don't think Scientology thought anybody would fact check a single thing they ever said. That's what I'm saying.

This is not even a journalist.

This is a woman who was watching the show going, fuck is this if you if you if you just took a stack of all their event videos, DVDs and just went through them, you could send one hundred letters of video.

And I'm sure, you know, 90 of them would come back. What the what? I didn't say that. You know, we did. Yes.

And that's why I want people to understand because they keep asking us what can I do? Anything anything you do is helpful. You're listening to this podcast is helpful. Supporting people who've left Scientology is helpful. Doing anything that you can do to contribute to the bigger picture, which is helping victims and and helping to get the word out about Scientology by writing your congressmen and women, by getting involved yourselves in any way that you can. It's all helpful. And we totally thank you enough for supporting us up to this point.

And you've been amazing. So thank you to everybody. And again, thank you for listening. And Mark, we love you. We love Claire Moore. It's OK.

She answers the phone. She answers emails on the phone. So that's kind of she's got the edge there.

But continued blessings work. Honestly, you guys are so blessed and as are all of us who have been given a second chance at life. Really. So continued success, more continued blessings. We love you.

Thank you. I love you guys to keep keep rocking it into twenty. And I want my bobblehead mark. What? I want my bobblehead.

OK, talk to your people. Got inside my firewall a firewall of like an No.

One could not even say that shit. By the way, can I get. Can you, can you.

Do you show the pictures, Julia. Well, what exactly is the structure of the stock market? You're such a liar.

By the way, we have the first five minutes of us talking before we actually started the podcast where Mark said he has tried to do the bubble has and he's done surveys and nobody knows who they're looking at.

Natalie Portman, I got Natalie Portman standing next to Mike Rinder and I got Beckinsale standing next and I got a Moute. I don't know somebody else, but yeah. No, I can't.

We can't do it. Well, it's not that hard. I know it's not because and it's because of me or my people, but your people. People, it's me. The bobblehead production unit is me, myself and I.

There's no one walking along.

It's just at Leha at the end of the day. Yeah. They just can't capture your essence. There's so much. I don't know, it's just explosion of energy there that they just can't. And also, I don't want that explosive energy bouncing back to me when you see these things. You never even saw that second one I did in the Senate. I was like, Claire's like, you think we should send it? I was like, oh, no, don't worry.

I didn't get any email.

She's going to call me if she sees that I am not upset at all being compared to Natalie Portman. I am absolutely fine with that.

OK, that gave you recognize look like OK, like take a picture of that. Like really take a picture of that and let's take a survey of people. OK, here.

Is it me. Is it me. OK, do this one too.

Oh no it doesn't look anything like me other than the white suit.

OK, I'm talking right now and this is my attempt, my first and second. Well there was a third attempt, but I'm not even going to show that one ever to anybody. But these are the attempts that actually got made. And like I said, Mike Rinder, he looks like a rock star. He looks better than his first one. But he just because he's just a little tanner. But oh, yeah. Just look like I don't know what to say.

I can't, you know, not give up.

Well, it's just I don't have enough time. And also I'm paying for all this. Oh, I got you. This is out of my money.

There's no there's no bobblehead S.P. Bobblehead Production Fund. I'm paying for all this shit. So I do a bobblehead. That sucks. That's I do too. I get a few thousand bucks out of my pocket.

Oh, hell no. Oh, OK. Yes. No. Yes, no. I have to pay these fuckers to fuck this shit up. No, I don't.

I don't want you to spend that money. All right. Anyway, Mark, thank you again so much. Love you guys. Thank you.

Thank you for having me. Hopefully I didn't talk too much too long. You can do it.

But you know, that's why we love you. We have the same disease work. Don't worry. Fire up the mountain. Know, it just it's a lot of information we get out. Yes. But thank you for everything. You were great baby. Thank you so very much. OK, ok. All right baby. Bye, guys. Ready to invest in Bitcoin, but not sure how to start. Just remember, coin flip. The world's leading Bitcoin ATM operator coin flip makes buying bitcoin so and easy.

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