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My name is Geoffrey Zakarian and I'm the host of a brand new podcast from Pirate Radio called For Courses with Geoffrey Zakarian.
In my career as a chef. I've been lucky enough to have several top restaurants cook alongside the greatest chefs in the world and appear regularly on the Food Network channel as a host and judge. But now I want to speak to my friends from other industries about how they found their success for courses with Geoffrey Zakarian launches March twenty sixth on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to another episode of Scientology Fair Game, the podcast.
Hello, Mike. Hello, Lily. How are you? Very pretty today. Thank you. I just want you to return that compliment.
But, well, here's the thing. You know, here's the thing, Mike. You always look good. OK, you have a great head of hair. You're a great head of hair. You're aging beautifully. So I just feel like to say it is just it's just obvious, you know, I don't have makeup on or my hair done when we do these podcasts. So it makes sense why you might say today that I look pretty. So you understand.
OK. All right. All right. Well, you're the PR queen. Look at that, what a perfect response does that response wait, is that what they said? Absolutely unrehearsed, perfect response. It was would you like to introduce our guest who has been I would love to introduce our guests as we are talking to another special. We have a lot of special people that show up on our podcast, let you know that a lot. I know that.
And there it's really great that so many people are willing to sit down and talk to us about this subject.
But this this particular person is a media and politics reporter. He's done a dozen or more stories about Scientology with plenty more to come. He has a huge following on Twitter. I'm going to put the address, his Twitter handle and Instagram and all the others on my Web site, cetera, when this episode goes out. But today. Welcome, Yashar. Ali. Hello, my friends, hello. Good to be with you. Thank you. First podcast, can you believe it?
I was shocked when you said that. I am so honored that you said yes to us. And because it is your first podcast, I'm sure you have thousands of requests and I'm not exaggerating. So the fact that, like Mike said, that you're willing to talk to us and said yes immediately, we really appreciate it.
Thank you. It's an honor to be asked. Thank you, sweetheart.
Well, let's talk about you for a moment, shall we? You sure you were never a Scientologist? Yeah. So this is not even what got you interested in Scientology?
When I was 16 years old, I stumbled upon. A website called Operation Clambake, which was Mike, I don't know how you would frame it, but sort of an opposition site to Scientology.
Yeah, and and also a place with where the guy that ran a Andrius held a lond in Norway, collected an enormous amount of material and made it available on that website. And I think that that's really the enormous value that it has had and continues to have is as a repository of information about Scientology.
And I was shocked by what was on there. And at that point, I mean, you didn't have both of you were in Scientology, you didn't have going clear. You didn't have all this stuff that people know about, but you had enough. You had the big Time magazine article in 1992. You had various lawsuits and there was enough in there that I was absolutely mesmerized by the information. I know. But it was an odd kid. And and I will also note that I knew I knew what the name was because a couple of years earlier, I had seen like 10 Dianetics commercials on TV, like in the span of a couple of days.
And I bought the book he Dianetics I Biogenetics when I was probably like 14 years old, because this is a powerful campaign.
I think you're talking about the campaign that was done by Jeff Hawkins, Jeffrey Hawkins and the volcano thing and all that stuff.
And and I mean, I, I probably got through one page of it before I was like, what is this ridiculous nonsense?
Right. So I landed on Operation Clambake and I started reading it. And I remember it was around 11 o'clock at night. And after an hour, I called my cousin and I said, have you seen this website and she didn't know anything about Scientology except for Tom Cruise's involvement.
And she went on it and we stayed up till 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning. Wow. Reading as much as we could.
And we were obsessed and I was obsessed. And I've remained obsess over these years, even when I was working in politics with exposing all of this information.
Because when you sit somebody down, you say, what if I told you there was a tax exempt religion that didn't allow people to leave, if they wanted to leave, that sent private investigators after people, if they dared to question anything in the religion, that sued anyone who asked questions. If I didn't attach Scientology to that, if I didn't say was Scientology, they would say, well, it sounds crazy. But the second I would mention Scientology, they would say, oh, isn't that the Tom Cruise thing or isn't that the John Travolta thing?
And so, you know, it's been it's been a 20 year obsession of mine. And it's something that that I can't shake and I'm proud to be associated with, meaning the obsession with exposing the abuses of Scientology, because it doesn't make sense.
Right? That's what it's about to me. It doesn't make sense that this criminal organization could continue to exist in the form that it's in.
Right. And we're talking about Scientology when it comes to. And by the way, what is the response? Before we move on? What is the response when you ask people that those questions, the response has varied over the years?
It certainly has gotten better.
And by better, I mean, you know, the way that we use the three of us would hope it would be in the past few years with your show, with going clear and all the other stuff that I remember in the early 2000s when people would say, oh, they're scary, let's not talk about them, they may be listening to us, which is absurd. Right.
And you know, or people saying, oh, yeah, it's crazy, but they just sue everybody right now. It's people saying, oh, is it is it is it really that bad? Because isn't you know, now it sort of veered off with all the abuses in the Catholic Church with what's what makes it different from the Catholic Church or people. Reporters will say to me, I don't want the headache of dealing with them elected officials.
For the most part, you know, dismiss it and laugh about it, because they don't understand. How nefarious it is and the most important thing that I always remind people is. The media can certainly do more people like you and Mike have done. We'll continue to do more, but it done a lot. It's now in the hands of the government. And so elected officials don't want to believe when I say this to them, that they are responsible for allowing this to continue.
Correct. And the media, the media, like you're saying, are free to cover it because they they Scientology has a reputation for being litigious. They are also responsible because oftentimes what what what we see is critics of Scientology say this or anti Scientologists say that we're neither I don't like to be called a critic. Drives me nuts. Yeah, me too. And I'm saying do your own story. Right. Do your own story. Have your own opinion.
But the few people who are covering it right. And we're not talking about, you know, Time magazine that did something a long time ago. The L.A. Times has done nothing but you. Marlow Stern, Tony Ortega, Tampa Bay Times. And that's about it, and that's about it, yeah, and it's infuriating. Go ahead. And you, Yashar, don't you think also that politicians tend to act and respond when there is media coverage on things?
That's why media stories often end up initiating federal investigations, congressional investigations, because they have no other choice but to respond to it. And what I say about the media stuff, the critics think, is what, you know, that sort of framing that you just mentioned are but critics say Scientology. And what I often say to editors and reporters, as would you say that about North Korea, you would never say, critics say, about North Korea. You would say North Korea is a dictatorship.
It's it's an autocracy. It's it's a vicious, brutal regime. And by saying critics say you are leaving room. For another interpretation, and when it comes to Scientology, there is no other interpretation other than that, it is my favorite thing to say to people. It is a criminal organization. That is set up as a for profit business masquerading as a religion. That's it, right? How do we move past this, Shasha, because it is becoming increasingly frustrating to us as well and to the victims who are not receiving their days in court or receiving fair treatment because judges are affiliated with or doing the work for.
I mean, what what what can one continue to do to get the message out there that it isn't about being a critic, it's about exposing, like you said, a criminal organization and what they're doing every day, what their tax exempt money is, not why they have tax exemption. I think that part of this is about and they take responsibility for this going forward is public education.
So if you go on somewhere like Twitter, where every reporter, every editor lives, you have a lot of discussions about how people should report on the Trump administration or how people should talk about Trump or Biden or Republicans. You don't have that sort of education, which is important.
I think a lot of reporters learn from that sort of discussion about Scientology and and also about cults based organizations, you know, because I think that Scientology is not only a cult, it's also like this for profit business.
That's a you know, that's engaging in criminal activity. So I think it's two things simultaneously.
But when you when you talk about this stuff is people often just make fun of it. Right?
So they talk about Xenu or they or in the case of if you want to talk about a digital cult, Kuhnen, they talk about people believing that Oprah or Chrissy Teigen are eating babies and drinking their blood, and that allows these cults.
To sort of be spared from the kind of. Investigation, right, that needs to be done, which is about in the case of Scientology, which is just about money. So every time you talk about Xenu, you're not talking about the fact that the church has billions of dollars in real estate.
Right. That sits empty, that it's stealing money from people by by forcing them to to hand over donations.
And then in the case of something like Kuhnen, you're not talking about the fact that you've got people that are believing that political figures are dangerous enough to go and storm the Capitol.
So so I think it's about public education, something that I take, you know, that needs to be taken seriously because I think a lot of people just don't know when it comes to the threats.
I'm sort of very cold about that because, you know, and part of it comes from being Iranian when you're Iranian and you've had your relatives arrested and tortured and executed and all this stuff, these sort of threats, that I'm putting that in quotes.
It's sort of laughable, like once you've dealt with that stuff, right?
You know, some some some random guy following you on the street but can't arrest you or do anything becomes something that's not as as interesting.
And so when people say, oh, you know, when reporters are said to me, oh, I don't want to get sued, I'm like, well, first of all, I'm making this example up. You work for a huge newspaper, right? You're going to you're going to be fine. And I would love. For Scientology to sue me, saying, please, yeah, I would love it, I would welcome it, I would I would be like a pig in shit begging, begging for begging, beg is yes.
And and why do we want to explain why why we're saying this?
But for me, it's a couple of things. For me, it's it's it elevates their nefarious activity publicly, makes it more known to people as soon as you get sued. The second thing is, please, let's go into discovery to agree.
Right. I would love to have depositions taken. Agreed.
And that's and that's and that's really for me, that's what it is. Jagat it's they know and I can tell you this because he was the head of the Dirty Tricks Department that that does this to people. He knows the last thing that he could have done was sue somebody like me or Mike or you. Yeah, he knows that all they can do is harass, threaten, stalk, attempt to silence, attempt to discredit, smear. You know, this is all they can do.
And that's really the message that I think, Yashar, that I want I want you to send to those in the media that they're not going to sue you because they know you're telling the truth and even if they do sue you.
You know, you you have an apparatus to protect you and they are never going to win, and that is that you have the truth, right?
That's the truth.
Yes, some of us it was someone from a network is telling me they're scared to be sure. I'm like, you're working for a multibillion dollar company, right? Trust me, you're going to be fine. I've been sued for defamation and won, and I don't have that backing. And I was fine with it.
And when it comes to the, you know, the following and all this other stuff that to me, I still get it.
And I'm not a woman. So I want to sort of separate myself from that and say, like, you know, I don't have to deal with that stuff day to day. But so what if somebody is, you know, sending threatening letters to your work that involve legal threats, not physical threats, because that's what they never they never do that.
Well, you're in the business, but you're in that you're in a business, right. That you're used to that now is for the average person who we've dealt with. Right. Who have talked to us or done the aftermath program. They have been shocked. I mean, shaking in hysterics when a guy shows up at their house, they're threatening them, you know, going through their garbage. You know, if you have children and you have somebody, you know, breaking into your gated community, as I have, you know, my first thought is I don't know this person and I don't know what harm.
They can do to my daughter now, you know, we are prepared to protect ourselves and I'm from Brooklyn, so I already have, you know, that built inside of me where, you know, you start looking over your shoulder, you're going to you're going to have, you know, maybe a response that you're not used to by people that you you do this to. But but but when it comes to people who don't deal with this, it is shocking.
And it's and it's fucking scary when they are. It is it is frightening your job. Yes. Yes. But they're threatening your job when they're outside your house with with their minister gear on where they have infiltrated other real religious organizations. And they seem to be a legit and bonafied, you know, group that's being, you know, bigoted against or whatever. You know, that that all sends a message. And employers don't want that mess. Right.
So just losing your job is. But but Scientology has these as their policies. Just for those who don't know, it's when Mike, you can post this on the website so people can see it, that Scientology actually has said in their fair game doctrine, find out what the person seeks to protect and then go after it. So what do people seek to protect their family, their friends, their job, their reputation? And it lays it out and lays it out.
Exactly. That go after those things. It doesn't need to be true, just suspicion of somebody being doing something just credible, you know, that's enough. Right. And that stuff, not most people can't deal with.
Yashar, that's up. That's right. And I think people who are who are former members. Yeah.
Who actually have a tie to the church, who've given over their information in auditing in other ways, have a legitimate fear. And so what I always say, when people are going to scare them like I don't have to deal with.
They don't have, you know, 20 years of my private stories, they don't have all the places where I'm vulnerable, and that is when I think privilege comes into play.
So because I don't have a family, because I mean, I don't have children, I don't have a spouse because I don't, you know, sort of need to worry about somebody, you know, threatening my job because, you know, I'm essentially self-employed. I can take on these risks. But I think the most important thing to say is, is, is there all of the things that they do now?
I'm not talking about 30 years ago when they were, you know, doing some significant harm to reporters. All of the things that they do now are just an attempt to set up a barrier where people say, well, I don't want to deal with that. Right. Rather deal with this story.
And, you know, what I always say to reporters is you have an incredible story here of an organization that does not belong on a list of of tax exempt religions, that is incredibly wealthy, that has, you know, less is not what it used to have in terms of celebrities, but has a few major celebrities involved.
That is a story of a major story that any reporter should want to to tackle.
And I think that when it comes to this idea of, you know, oh, they're going to they're going to, you know, try to to to ruin my life and all this other stuff I just think about.
Where they've tried to do to me, which is set up the standards that they set up fake websites, they buy ads for social media companies that are, you know, that that make stuff up about me. They they yeah. I used to work for for California's current governor, Gavin Newsom, for many years. And they sent in public records requests to get my emails with Gavin in the hopes that they would find some thing. Right. And the reason I know that they did that is because they made the mistake or maybe they did it intentionally of putting their Clearwater address on the forms.
So. You know, they've done they've tried to do other things, you know, like sliding into my friend's dams and asking questions about me and all the stuff.
I mean, they also went to where you lived. Yes. And she sent you a message that we know where you are.
And that is, you know, I am obsessively protective. I'd be more careful. But back then I was pretty careful. Yes, I lived in my building under a pseudonym. Yeah. And they they they had somebody drop off a piece of paper that had my name on it, but it had the name, my pseudonym on the envelope. And when I opened it, it was my name. Right. And I found out that's when I stopped doing television interviews, because one of the things that I found out is, is that you do a TV interview that's live.
People know. That you're leaving the studio at a certain time, right, so they can follow you around, right. So. I you know, all of this stuff I'm just speaking up on when it comes from my perspective, is nothing compared to, for example, when my family went through and it's all in its hands to to place this barrier to make me think twice about tweeting about them. Right. Or about doing stories on them. And and frankly, I think more reporters with this sort of privilege.
They can have the flexibility that I have need to take on the church. I agree. I mean, what is the difference? Yeah, what is the difference between you and most of them? I don't know. Most of them can take on this risk kahunas.
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But you, Yashar, the very reason that they fear doing this is the exact reason that the media needs to be exposing it, it's it's exactly the same thing as what happened with the IRS.
The reason the IRS should not have granted tax exempt status to Scientology is because they violated the IRS code by putting pressure on the IRS that they practice fair game on the IRS in order to get tax exempt status. That's the exact reason they shouldn't have it. The exact reason the media should be reporting on Scientology and the abuses and the fraud and the rip offs is because they spend their money to do things to try and intimidate reporters.
That's reason enough for the media to be exposing what's going on. It's not a reason to shy away from it. It should be the motivation to do more. That's right.
And I think that one of the factors when it comes to elected officials is I have some, as Leah just mentioned, about people who are dealing with threats for the first time in their life.
I have empathy for that.
I don't have an empathy for elected officials in terms of you've been elected to do to protect your constituents, to to fight for your constituents, to protect the the federal government.
And so I don't want to hear that you're worried about lawsuits or people following you when you're an elected official and this is your fucking responsibility and. Right.
And it's a dereliction of duty that they have repeatedly been handed, example after example, over the past three decades of massively fraudulent and criminal behavior.
And at a minimum, because you can lose your tax exempt status for non-criminal reasons. Right. Right, right. At a minimum that the tax exempt status has been maintained. I don't I don't want to hear about any any complaints from elected officials about what may happen to them, particularly when we saw what happened at the Capitol.
And they're still willing to to deal with those people and have those people around in their party.
So I, I, I just think that it's it's especially particularly with the Trump administration being over that, but genuinely did take up a lot of energy for so many reporters.
Sure. And certainly I might from my perspective, did every time I wanted to sort of focus on Scientology.
It was like another round of. Sort of. You know, concerns about the Trump administration or in my case, also the Metoo movement being reignited, you know, I had to shift my focus to some non Scientology stories as it relates to that. But now we're in a different period where people can hold the Biden administration accountable for stuff, but they're not sort of taken in by Saturday morning tweets. Right. So they can focus on things like Scientology.
And I hope they will. Right.
And speaking of that, like how how do you think the media and and celebrities should deal with Scientology celebrities? Because there's one thing to to report on the criminal activities of Scientology, that it is, in actual fact, a criminal organization. But you have now entertainment reporters dealing with Scientology celebrities and they are never asking the questions. They are. I try to be not.
So one of the one of the best examples of this as Elisabeth Moss. Yes.
Who is a longtime Scientologist, if she's out of it, she should tell.
She should tell us she isn't. She she is.
But I'm saying sometimes what happens in these situations, people. Well, how do you know she hasn't said anything until she does. She's in it. Right. And and you have people.
Not asking her questions, so, for example, she sat down for the Today Show a couple of years ago and you know, these the entertainment reporters often, you know, they're not. They're not. Like hard news reporters in the course that they make deals and they, you know, sort of things, but the Today show is not in that realm, right? The Today show doesn't do preconditions.
It doesn't you know, no one's going to tell a reporter on The Today show or an anchor until they show they can't ask a question.
Right. And so to sit there and watch her not be asked. About Scientology was infuriating because. From my perspective, unless you are a minor. So, for example, somebody was like a 15 year old Scientologist and a famous actor. That's fine. I sort of leave minors to the side because I don't think they're responsible or right for being part of a criminal organization, for being brainwashed.
Yeah. Now, I want to I want to play a little bit of devil's advocate here, because when I was asked questions about Scientology when I was a Scientologist, I truly didn't believe these things were going on in the organization. Now, when I was in in and brought I was brought up in this in Scientology. And what we engaged in was and taught was psychological warfare, where we believed anybody who was asking us questions that seemed to be derogatory, a.k.a. the truth was an enemy to us.
So immediately you would shut down. Right. And you know that that but also the data that's available today wasn't available just a short time ago. Right. So, yeah, I'm not justifying why I stayed in, but I was in as a child just as Elizabeth and most Scientologists. But that's not going to change, Elizabeth, right. Being asked those questions, that's confrontational. She will perceive that as an enemy tactic. And then we're taught how to respond to the media, right?
Yeah. And this is how they responded. This is the actual real problem that I have with it is every celebrity who does a podcast, who does an interview, who does a talk show, is asked. Let's say they ask a softball question. Right, about Scientology, like what do you say to the critics of Scientology? That's usually the pussy question they ask, right? Right. The answer is usually don't believe everything you read. Scientology has saved my life.
It got me off drugs. You should look at the good works that we do. And then I would start, you know, spouting off the the the there they're front groups, the secular, quote unquote, secular groups and saying all the good work that Scientology does. Then the good old read a book, right? Yep. Yeah. These are just apostates. These are people with an axe to grind. Why doesn't any fucking person say great, but what what, what are they lying about supposedly.
What have, what have you seen. Tell me a scene that you've seen in the aftermath. Like what was Merican of Florida lying about when she was crying hysterically about the forced disconnection of her son, that she has spent 50 plus years, spent millions of dollars only to find out that it was all a lie and they took her son from her. What was she lying about? What was Mary lying about? What was Claire Headley lying about when she was in the sea organization and forced to get an abortion she didn't want?
What was she lying about? Why? This is what this is what enrages me more.
This goes back to education. So when, for example, I say to I have a debate with somebody in a non celebrity judge, somebody who says, why are you so obsessed with Scientology?
And saying, you know, by the way, by the way, I would stop them right there. I don't like words like obsessed. I don't like words like critics. I'd say rephrase and ask like a fucking person with some decency and a shred of like just show me that you're somewhat fucking intelligent before we start.
I'm not from Brooklyn, OK? But no, I'm from New Orleans.
So you know me. I can be pretty. I can it can be pretty forceful. But I will say that when they say that word, they say, oh, it's not a you know, it's if Scientology is a religion, what about the Catholic Church and all this stuff? And I always say to them, and this is the part where reporters don't understand this and they can't ask the questions that you have rightfully suggested they ask, I have said to them, that's B, cause there is not a policy.
Written by God, I'm talking about the Catholic Church, written by, you know, in the Bible or in, you know, or written by a pope and ordered by the pope that somebody who disagrees with the Catholic Church should have their lives destroyed.
And that's the kind of thing that people don't understand reporters. About the complexities of Scientology and its leadership. They don't understand this goes back to the public education part. They don't understand that. You know, this is written in policy by L. Ron Hubbard to do some of these things. And then you can go and say to Elisabeth Moss, you know, nice try. Right. This is what LRH said in this policy. Here's the policy. Right?
Here's your own policy. And you and I know, Elizabeth, that this is not open to interpretation. This is what LRH has written as part of policy. L. Ron Hubbard has written part of policy. And, you know, there is no interpretation other than his own.
And you can't say this to me, you know this, and so they can't do that because they don't know it, and even though they've been provided it, even though you can Google this shit and we tell this to people all the time, don't take our word for it. Get on your fucking phone like you already are and Google this shit.
Yeah, I listen, I. I know, but I will tell you something. So many of these reporters. Don't do it. Yeah, no shit. Yeah, we know. Yeah, I know, I know, but they don't do a lot of Googling in general, which is no shit. They're unprepared to answer questions not only of Scientologists, but a lot of people.
And and so I think that that public education is really, really important in serving as a resource that I've decided to take on this role while we're taping this fucking podcast.
What we are, Mike, we're where I should you know, I realize that, you know, because they speak the language, you know, that newsrooms understand is I can sort of help to educate people about how they should be reporting on this stuff because there's just a opaqueness from their perspective which need to be when it comes to Scientology. Same thing with elected officials. They don't understand the layers here. And, you know, once you sit somebody down, it's almost like after this pandemic I want to, you know, set up a conference somewhere, please, to do a, you know, PowerPoint presentation to teach everybody about what a nefarious organization this is.
And it's not some hot new fad in Hollywood.
And it's not innocuous. It's not just like, oh, isn't that just the crazy cult where Tom Cruise is jumping on a couch like it is? No, it is not something to be ignored and to just laugh off. And to go back to your point about the Catholic Church. I also want to add just a few more things to that. Not only does the Catholic Church, just because we're using it as an example, not have policies, plural, that lay out exactly what you do to somebody who is speaking out.
But it also has policies to destroy people who are going to the police to report their rape. They're being molested as children by Scientologists. And and the these people are on the list as well. Right. So you don't have a department in the Catholic Church that is solely dedicated to go after mothers and fathers who simply want to know where their children are at or their sister, as in like Shelly Miscavige, who's been, again, missing for 15 years, hasn't been seen.
Tom Cruise's best friend, David Miscavige, his wife. Nobody seems to give a shit and nobody's doing anything about it except me, and then I get attacked. Yeah, for doing it right when I move.
I've moved a few times across the country, back and forth over the past 15 years. I have never, not once gotten a call from the church that I attended for Mass every Saturday or Sunday and said, Where are you? Right, and I should point out that here's the other difference is that Scientology is a prepaid business, so you have to prepay. You can't just walk in and just get a free service. I mean, I don't even know if they have free service.
I mean, they might have things for PR reasons, rights and tax reasons, not only for PR reasons.
But by the way, again, you can Google this everybody. Scientology's price list is online. You could see it. It adds up to about four hundred thousand dollars minimum. It says it right there. These services have to free prepaid. They do. They apply. They have a whole book, thousands of pages called the public division. Everything says this is how you make money. This is how you bring money into the church. This is how you make money.
There's a whole division just set up to make money. It's run on statistics like any other business. It's run on gross income just like any other business.
They it's the Catholic Church doesn't pay commissions.
You know, Scientology pays commissions to all of us. If you are a Scientologist, you are already or automatically what's called a field staff member. And if you get anybody in doing any introductory courses, you get 10 percent. So everybody's assigned immediately as a field staff member who is a parishioner. But what you're saying is your Scientology demands that you put in two and a half hours a day minimum. They will call you if you don't show up. If you have any trouble getting to your studies, they will call you into their ethics department.
You will be reprimanded, you will be interrogated on their lie detector. And that's two and a half hours a day every day. And they are keeping tabs on you. Like you said, you have to report to your church and you have to put in two and a half hours a day on top of paid for your services, on top of having a department that goes after you. Should you ever file a police report or want to be connected to your own child?
Should they have if they have left the organization, you are not allowed to have connection. They have.
I mean, Catholic Church has never asked about my family. Right?
Fifteen years ago, I stopped giving putting money in the collections way because I thought to myself, I'd rather give the money directly to organizations that are helping the poor and other people that are in need, because I don't want to be financing the the these settlements. Right.
The legitimate settlements that survivors deserve. But I'm not going to encourage that behavior by giving money. I you know, since then, which again, fifteen years ago, I've never been called me.
So you're saying they didn't label you an enemy to the Catholic Church and then starts trying to discredit you and make your life miserable?
They've never asked me for money. They don't even know who I am. Exactly. They and the other thing is, is that they've never you know, as I said, they've never asked about my family.
They've never asked me why I'm not showing up. They don't mean I don't exist because I don't need to exist because it's about the religion and the belief. Right.
They didn't write down and record all your confessions. And we read about the church and some of their cover ups of pedophilia.
I've never gotten a phone call. I've never gotten a lawsuit threat. I've never gotten anyone showing up at my house.
And so I think that's one of the other ways that they're allowed to persist is this idea that I do think it comes along from the sort of fantastical beliefs, you know, the Xenu stuff. And people say, oh, this stuff. Well, if you read the Bible, there's crazy stuff, too.
And I'm like, that's not what we're talking about.
That's why it's always important to get away from the the doctrine, you know, write, quote unquote, and focus on the financial crimes and the other crimes that the churches is participating in to, you know, to, because as soon as we get into the ideology, that's just where you get lost, right?
Yeah. Yeah, but but that's a that's a great point, your show. But also, let's not forget the ideology of Scientology is also that. The abuse and the going after people and the fair game is, in fact the scripture of some.
Yeah, well, I mean, that's what makes it so weird is that just as you're saying, that that doesn't exist in the Catholic Church, the the local Jewish synagogue doesn't have some book that tells them how to deal with people who leave the synagogue that they Scientology has both on one side the crazy space alien science fiction. That is their scripture, but. People tend to adjust, as you're saying, go, yeah, it's a bunch of crazy loonies, lunatic stuff, but also this scripture is to destroy people, to destroy their enemies, to get money out of everybody, to milk everybody for as much money as you could possibly get out of them.
That's their scripture, too.
So I think it's about the fantastical parts that you sort of have to really split those in two. So if you take Kuhnen, for example, as I said, you know, it's easy to get sidetracked when you focus on the you know, Oprah and Tom Hanks and Chrissy Teigen are eating babies. But on the other side, you have Nancy Pelosi is an evil monster that needs to be held accountable. That's a very real threat.
Just as in Scientology, the Xenu stuff is a distraction, right, from the real threat of the financial stuff going after people trying to destroy people's lives.
And that's why I don't make fun of this stuff in in Scientology or in on that sort of crazy. And I focus on these people are dangerous.
Right? Right. And and that's very true because and we've been very careful about that. Although early on in talking about the aftermath, producers were trying to push Mike and I into talking about Xenu. And if anybody doesn't know what Zino is, it's when you you have spent, you know, most of your life in Scientology to get to the confidential levels, which is like the sacred scripture. And you find out the story of Xenu, you could look it up and say, and it's true, by the way, because most people who haven't gotten to this level called the OT levels, they actually don't know if what they're seeing is true.
And I'm going to confirm that it is actually what you actually read, because Mike and I have both achieved the level of oh, just the other thing.
And the Catholic Church, you have you know, you have a priest that is that is talking about the scripture. But I don't I don't need to be there to know what the scripture does, what it's in one place. Yeah. Bible writes it.
And you also don't need to believe it in Scientology. You are told you have to believe it or you are then taken to interrogation, put on the cans. They're asked. Then they ask you what you know, what you're disaffected. Who are you talking to? What are you looking up on the internet? You need to disconnect from your mother. If she's not like immediately it starts. So you just learn to just keep quiet and hopes and you hope that maybe it's going to get better and you hope that maybe you're going to open up a confidential source.
That was all crazy shit. And here's the real shit, you know? I mean, like it. Yeah, it's just insane.
No one forces you, right, in the Catholic Church, for example, in Leviticus, if it says, like, you should kill your child because they, you know, eat poor, I'm making this up because I don't know Leviticus that well, because they eat pork that was written two thousand years ago.
I don't have to follow that.
No one's going to come to my house or no one's going to take me and interrogate me for not killing my child after they eat pork. Right. In Scientology, I don't have to tell you guys, but I'm telling your audience, especially the people who follow me, that is. What you're supposed to do, meaning you must follow what it says in Dianetics. That's the key difference. And I and I feel like I just have to drill that into people's heads all the time.
There is no option.
There is no interpretation, and there's no parables inside L. Ron Hubbard.
If correct me if I'm wrong, maybe I'm mixing things up. Doesn't even have a policy about how you should wash windows.
Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah.
So this shows you how much I pay attention to this stuff is like that's the crazy stuff and you must follow it.
You must wash a window. I think he said with newspaper or something.
Yes. You correct. You vinegar and use vinegar. Yes. Yeah. You have to follow that.
You don't have a choice. If you don't, you are going to be targeted by the quote unquote religion that you are a member of.
And the other difference too, and you could tell me, if this is not even worth pointing out, you're going to find a lot of Catholics that say, we don't agree with this. We are not because we're Catholic, doesn't mean we agree with these priests should be punished. You will not find that in Scientology, you it's impossible, right?
And and because there isn't even a right, there's not even a small sect within Scientology, there is no room for negotiation or discussion. And so I think I think one of the things that does help with Kuhnen is that now politicians, because I was pulling my hair out for two years trying to to get people in there, there's other reporters that were doing it to look like my friend Ben Collins, trying to get people to take this very seriously.
And people were saying the same things. Oh, it's just a few people in their mom's basements or it's just and now they get it. And they also there is a dynamic within cults, but particularly in focus on Kuhnen and Scientology of this sort of fair game approach.
Yes, the same tactics, the same fair game tactics.
So and, you know, there's another tactic that is also used, Yashar, that that was brought to my attention very recently.
These people in Kuhnen are Arabs obsessed, and this is the correct use of that word.
In this case, they are obsessed with the idea that they do the research, that they are the informed people who understand. And everybody who doesn't get it is a dummy who hasn't, quote, put in the work and done the research. And you hear this in Scientology, too, and this intimidates people and intimidates reporters. Have you ever read it? Have you have you read Dianetics? Do you have you ever experienced an auditing session? Well, you're in no position to be judging us.
You're in no position to be commenting on what we do and don't do because you don't really understand. You haven't really found out. You haven't done your homework, bla bla bla bla bla bla. It's a similar.
Here is how we keep the world at bay and live inside our little bubble is that we convince ourselves that we're the only ones that really know and everybody else is ignorant. Yeah. And I say to that go back.
You can, you can get into someone like me can get into those kind of arguments with the Scientologists. But for reporters that that aren't as well prepared, there are some simple truths that are important, I think, to go back to. And one of those is at the Catholic Church. You don't need to hide in the trunk to leave. As people in Scientology have. Right. That's like baseline to me, right? Yeah, and and and and there's we don't need to discuss anything past that.
And, you know, there's just some some things like that.
In the Catholic Church, there is no policy that says that you are going to have your life destroyed if you dare to sue a Scientologists or call law enforcement.
That's another thing with with members of Congress who I know are going to be listening to this because I make them by tweeting about and sending it to them directly, I. When Scientology. All you need to know is there is a policy that is harshly enforced that says that if you want to call law enforcement and another Scientologists, you are finished. That's all. We don't need to discuss anything else. Right, that's it. That is enough to have the whole thing shut down, agree, and that the criminal justice system and law enforcement are tools of the psychiatric community and are bent on the destruction of mankind and that the only hope for every man, woman and child on planet Earth is for Scientology to take over and implement science.
The Scientology system of justice that to turn someone over to the justice system as it exists in normal society is tantamount to a signing signing the death warrant that this is the mind set of Scientologists. This is how Scientologists are raised or what they are raised to believe. And I know it sounds incredible. It is absolutely one.
I mean, the very last chapter of L. Ron Hubbard book called Introduction to Scientology Ethics says this explicitly, explicitly, that the FBI, the government, all government agencies, law enforcement, judges, courts, they're all criminals and they breed criminality. And that for people to end up in those venues is, like I said, the worst thing that can possibly happen to them.
Like, yeah, if I was to compile if you and I were to compile out of all the enforced policies that we have to read. Right. Because we all read the same policies. That's the other thing is, is that because Scientology's laid out in steps, you can't just go in and talk about your dad or your mom. Right.
Every Scientologist has read the same thing. Well, you might not have a chief, right, they might not have achieved certain steps on the bridge, but every reporter should ask, I'm sorry, where are you out on the bridge again? Google Scientology Bridge. And you'll see the steps that are laid out in the way that Scientologists have to do it. Right. They should know public education, they should know where somebody is out on the bridge and go, so then you read this policy and produce it.
Yeah. Hazari, what's a TV moment that you're still not over? I'm Celotto for the musical episode on Grey's Anatomy and me too.
I'm cringing just thinking about it. And there are so many of these pop culture moments that we had no choice but to make a podcast about it.
Hi, I'm Becky Keusch and I'm Syrian sneaky. We've been working at PopSugar for the better part of a decade, covering events, interviewing celebrities and spending too much time analyzing the latest in entertainment.
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But this is where the public education comes in when Mike is talking about the the policies against law enforcement, against the FBI. Yeah.
How L. Ron Hubbard and David Miscavige have talked about them with people who are unaware and uneducated about how Scientology works, will do is they will go and Google something like that.
And what will they see?
They'll see photos of Scientology officials with police officers taking, you know, hold city councilmen and women, city council members holding up placards honoring the police or holding up a big check saying, you know, we just donated twenty five thousand dollars.
And so it's about teaching them about safe, pointing all these other sort of things.
She does. Yeah.
Who to, you know, use law enforcement as a tool. As I was saying to a reporter, another reporter the other day, when it comes to Scientology and and law enforcement, if there's somebody that is, let's say a person who is, you know, an in-house person or perhaps somebody dealing with addiction that is sitting on the front steps of a Scientology building. The church will have no issue calling the police in that case, no, no, no.
Yes, that's exactly right.
Law enforcement is a tool, an external tool for Scientology, but it is not a tool that they want to use against the church.
So I think I think this really, really comes down to and I know you've done it ad nauseum, but sometimes they feel like, you know, you've got to just we got to keep doing it even though everyone wants to move on with their lives.
I'm sure there's other topics to talk about. I'd love to move on with my life. And that's what I said, by the way. That's what I say to people.
One of the other things is the obsession thing, the line and I and I use it sometimes myself. And I shouldn't, because I mean it in a way where I am I am focused on it is is something that the church loves to do.
Leah and Mike are just obsessed with the church right now.
If you found out that some organization was doing terrible things to people, you would be focused on it, too. So, you know, I think that the law enforcement that when I tell people that when I really make them focus on it, almost always they understand why it's such a bad thing.
Of course, if my husband if I'm a woman and my husband beats the crap out of me.
I can't call the cops right now because of all the other issues that come with a woman reporting domestic violence, but because this multibillion dollar organization. We'll try to ruin my life if I do, you'll lose everything and you'll lose everything, you lose everything. Yes. And just to go back to law enforcement.
My point was, if we ever compiled all of the policies that we're forced to to read and Scientology compile everything that L. Ron Hubbard wrote about the police department's politics, you know, the AMA, the EPA, the FBI, the CIA, real doctors, real. It's like if I was to compile what L. Ron Hubbard has said about government agencies, Scientology would be on the like the FBI's watch list.
Like they literally. I correct. Mike, is it. No, it's the thought. What you're saying that Leah thought overwhelms me. Right? Like it's like, oh, my God, don't get to the end of that sentence, Leah, and say, hey, Mike, can you have this put together next week?
Because it is literally it's huge. Yes. But what I will do and just pursuant to this idea of education, Yashar, and, you know, you echo what what Captain Yolanda Williams said to us when we talk to her, you know, she's the the Jonestown survivor who's now a captain in the San Francisco Police Department.
And she was saying what we need is we need a program to educate law enforcement on dealing with cults because they don't understand. They don't know how to act. They don't know how to react. They don't know what to do. You you have of a very unique position, you know, I forgot to mention in the in the beginning when I was introducing you, that you recently appeared on the Time magazine entry of the 25 most influential people on the Internet.
And you have the ability to reach an enormous number of of social influencers, political influencers, etc. And I hope that we can parlay our talk here into something bigger. And I will put together all of the things that we have talked about and put them on, you know, link for my blog and link for this podcast so that you can refer people to them to go and look for themselves and see these references, see what L. Ron Hubbard wrote about these things and know that it's not just, you know, made up horror stories from Bédard, defrocked apostates.
This is reality. And part of education is educating these people in the media, politicians, law enforcement about what really is the essence of Scientology, because the essence of Scientology is the, quote, scripture of L. Ron Hubbard.
And that scripture is stunning in its brazen. Disregard for the well-being of people or the law.
It's crazy. The only way to seek forgiveness and this sounds harsh to outsiders is to say publicly, if you're a celebrity, I'm not saying this about, you know, somebody who's sort of middle class that got roped into it. Yeah, I'm talking about famous people. The only way that I will ever believe that somebody is a former Scientologist is if they publicly say I am no longer part of this dangerous organization.
Right. Because I've gone after Greta Van Susteren a few times. Sure.
And, you know, she's one of those what I say covered Scientologists because everyone knows Tom Cruise is Scientologists. Many people know that Greta and her husband were writing big checks, by the way.
They are big time Scientologists. They're not dabblers. They are right. Big time in Scientology in it. And get to back to the covenant thing for a minute, because I know you literally are pulling your hair out for getting the message out. And nobody was listening to you, right. You you weren't saying you were saying forget the beliefs. These are dangerous. You were you were going to social media. You were saying, guys, you cannot give this platform and we're having the same issue.
How did you finally get people to listen to you show?
It became and I want to be clear, because there's Kuhnen for me was something that was I was sort of focused on.
I never did a story on them. I did a lot of tweeting, which in these days is the only is the thing that really matters. But but also I was privately and some people helping my friends.
Who were dealing with them, like Chrissy Teigen, who was they were majorly focused on her and, you know, violent threats and dangerous threats against her. And and so I was for two years, I was trying to bring attention to this because I had seen the parallels with Scientology and I would have discussions with people and social media companies saying, like, how can somebody tweet that so-and-so is a baby killer?
And a, you know, by the way, somebody with a verification badge. Oh, yeah.
Yeah, Scientology does, too. With one hundred thousand followers. You know, I'm making the number up, but there's examples of that in Kuhnen.
And how can you guys allow that to happen?
Because when someone tweets something like that with 400000 followers and a verification measures, people sort of tie that to if they have that badge, that means it's factual, right?
That is that is central to U.S. interests and and in you know, it sometimes I would say that I would say, OK, forget about forget about Chrissy Teigen, forget about Tom Hanks. Forget about any of these. What about some some of these reporters?
There's regular reporters that are making 50 grand a year. They don't have the protections that a celebrity has. Right. And they would just say they would sort of be befuddle.
It finally became a thing when, you know, when when people like Chris said, I am leaving the social media platforms.
Right. That they started focusing in the way that they should and having policies that they actually enforced. It was it was until their pocketbook was threatened. That they actually started doing something because I have sent people have sent our listeners have sent. So many examples of egregious violations of Scientology on social media, like you're saying, verified Jack Dorsey, the CEO, even tweeted at a Scientology event back in 2007.
Yeah, I have gotten no I have never been able to get over a certain amount of followers. By the way, for the many years that I've been on Twitter, like it will hit a certain number and never go over that number. We called once they said something like, oh, there seems to be some kind of restriction on her account, then we could never get that person back on the phone again.
So there's some crazy shit going on there.
But the fact that Scientology front groups are these accounts are going after current plaintiffs, I mean, to me, this is tampering with witnesses.
This is an attempt to silence them. They're trying to shame them. They're trying to scare them. And it sends a message to other Scientologists, go after these people, threaten these people.
And we have sent these tapes that we've we've sent example to their own to their legal department. No response from Instagram, Facebook, Twitter. No response.
This is where. I keep on going back to those I feel like a broken record where I think there needs to be some public education because people need to understand what allows these things to happen.
And An, in public education for social media companies, which is another commitment I will make them as podcasts is, is they need to understand how this stuff comes about. Yes.
And why it is. And I know you've tried to do it. I'm talking about, you know, just from a different perspective doing it because I think that they don't understand what happens to people. When they do this, when they for example, they compare me to one of which they've done a number of times to one of Hitler's henchmen.
Sure, the Standlake, which is a front group for Scientology, verified, by the way, by Twitter, has four hundred and something thousand followers, all, of course, Vought and seems to be, you know, a legit account and and and others that have verification.
And people don't want to believe that to be true, which is what they do with cults all the time in order to diminish how dangerous they are. I think this is a natural human reaction. They try to minimize the number of people that believe in it. They try to minimize the actual sort of reality of what this stuff means. So it don't worry just a few people that are just sort of going crazy, they're not going to actually do anything right.
And they you know, it's people, I think naturally don't want to believe that other human beings believe this.
I understand. And so that's what leads them to minimize it in their heads. It's not the right thing to do, but that's what they do. Yeah. And. Listen, I hope you get somewhere because we are. For victims, right, we want to advocate for victims and the campaigns that Scientology is engaged in is is deplorable that they would try to gain acceptance through pretending to be victims of real bigotry, pretending to be victims of domestic violence, and using the Internet, Twitter, social media platforms to do so.
And I hope that you can talk some sense into people, Yashar, like you've done and made such headway with Scientology, as well as as as where you have alerted the public and social media platforms to the dangers that could come from this type of thinking. And I and I agree with you. I think we saw the result of that. But I also want to say to to people who believe this.
Because I do have sympathy, Yashar, for people who because I was one of them and these are people who feel disenfranchised in some way, right, because you can't say that your government isn't lying to you. You can't say that. You're right. So there there's some truth in what they feel.
They are feeling disenfranchised in some way to connect up with something like this, just as you would with Scientology. Right. These are not stupid people. These are people that, you know, they're decent people that believe change has to happen. Right.
And so they're not hearing what they need to hear. So then they they see a little morsel of truth. Right, of like the government hiding. There's too much government involvement in your everyday life, you know, and and they attract to that just as we are attracted to something we thought was decent and we thought the same thing, that we had the answers and that everybody else was ignorant and that we needed to teach them that. Right. We need to find another way to communicate to to hear.
I hear you. I understand you feel disenfranchised. I hear you that things have to change. But this is not the way that doesn't make this true. When I often say about. You know, about Scientology and cute on one of the things I should say that that the people who you may want to criticize me and I'm not talking about Scientologists say is like, oh, you're just worried about your celebrity friends.
It's sort of some I don't know why anybody would say that, though.
People say that all the time, OK? And I say I'm I'm not losing sleep at night. Over my wealthy, famous friends, I mean, worried about them, but I'm not it doesn't keep me up at night because they have the protections they need, right? What the people that don't have the protections they need when I think of Scientology, for example, is, you know, a family of four that lives just outside Chicago and maybe maybe the father had a drug problem and ended up in Narconon.
And all of a sudden the whole family are members of Scientology. Right. And all of a sudden the kid's college fund. Which the parents have worked hard to build up over the years, they're being told, well, college doesn't matter.
Your salvation does, and all of a sudden they're emptying out the college account and all of a sudden they're taking on credit card debt, and then when they finally sort of get scared and say we don't have any money anymore, they're told you're going to lose everything and your family, you're going to have to cut them off.
Right. That's who I'm concerned about. Not to mention, Yashar, we spoke about Scientology being a prepaid business, right? Yeah, well, that guy that you're talking about was forced to put 50000 dollars on his account because you have to pay in advance. Right. And big and big chunks of money. That guy leaves Scientology, that money sitting on a Scientology account, and he's not allowed to get it back for services he doesn't want and will never get because he signed away the right.
Back. And you know, how many millions of dollars are sitting on account that people, good people can't get back?
We're talking 20000 here, 50000 there. I'm talking hundreds of thousands of people with money on account. Last we checked, last we had somebody in Scientology was Matt Peche who knew the numbers of the reserve accounts. What was that? That amount, Mike from Mike? From that, I think just for the flag service organization in Florida.
Hundred million dollars.
Three hundred million dollars sitting in unused money and people can't get it back. Why call a lawyer and go, hi, I used to be in Scientology.
I got 50000 on account. You know, they won't give it back to me. I haven't received the service. I don't plan on getting the service. And the lawyer goes, it'll be 50000 for me to even draw up a fucking paper for you.
You kidding me?
And they know this is why I tell people all the time that Scientology having its tax exempt status revoked is so important because there are so many protections. Yes, they get from religious punishment to this sort of thing about donating money.
And if it was treated like a business, yes, they would not be able to engage in some of these tactics.
OK, so so, you know, to your point about the guy and by the way, another thing, if you want to talk about the Catholic Church and compare to other compared to Scientology, you know, if I wanted to give money to the Catholic Church, they would say, oh, thank you very much and take it.
That's a if I if Scientology Catholic Church is not doing things like Scientology does, which is if I'm a Scientologist and I go sit down, let's say a, you know, an ideologue or some other place where they're they're they're trying to reopen members, they're telling you, oh, this is how you get more credit available on your credit cards and they'll call for you, the whole for you.
This is how you increase your credit score so you can get more money. Yeah, that's how you can take out a home equity loan. Yep. This is how you can do this. No, no other church is doing that.
Correct. So I think I think about these comparisons are so important to to keep making them, because I do think that people I've had the reason I keep doing this, because as we discussed, we'd rather be doing and talking about other things is I've just had too many people text me, email, D.M. Call and say, God, I really didn't know how bad it was.
And then I'm like, OK, I'm going to keep doing this because at some point, you know, maybe when, you know, we're in our 70s, hopefully before then, you know, it'll finally collapse because we've done this.
You guys are doing it full time, but because we've done this enough and, you know, it's it's it's a house of cards is what I always say. It's just waiting for somebody to kick it over. And when it comes to if you want to talk about celebrities, this is what I always talk about when it comes to Tom Cruise, because he's in a unique position that I don't think correct me if I'm wrong, any other celebrity is in Scientology.
Absolutely could write the whole thing down. If he sits down tomorrow with a good reporter or interviewer who asked the right questions and he was willing to reveal things that he knew and he has seen and he has participated in.
Go ahead. Yeah, knew, knew and participated.
I mean, he knows some stuff. Right. And he he's active in some other stuff.
He could take the whole thing down, of course. Yes, and that that is why when it came to people praising him for his covid-19 rants is bullshit rant, right?
I just wanted to just go nuts and I still will never let people forget.
That they said things like, well, I don't like what he does, but this was actually a good thing and I said, what's happening right now? This is about the education thing. Guess what's happening right now?
Well, that that imagine that.
Real but imaginary, because I'm using the example that father in Illinois puts families wrapped up in Scientology just as they're finally ready to pull away.
They're being shown articles. Where major people, politicians are saying good for Tom Cruise. He is leading the way. What a great example of that is why you can't praise these people, right. Because your information, your praise is being used as propaganda by a criminal organization to keep very vulnerable people locked into it.
Yeah. Absolutely right. And so, you know, I just I. I think that we just need to to to keep doing that and, you know, he's going to have movies coming out in the next couple of years. And and this goes back to the Elisabeth Moss thing. Every single reporter should be asking about Scientology and every single reporter should be asking him what his role was. And if it means that he stops doing interviews, fine. But any airing of an interview with a Scientologist like him.
That doesn't end up with questions like that is a dereliction of duty agreed and by the way. Do your research. I mean, we're always available to people to give them the information. You don't need to take our opinion. We're going to provide you with the information so that you can know what the fuck you're talking about.
Yeah, but not what you don't know. And you have to care about what's happening. And I think I don't I don't ever like to broadcast from from enjoying in advance, but I do think what needs to happen is next time Tom Cruise does have a movie coming out, people like me need to be very public and say, hey, I know he's going on GMA, GMA. You better ask him about this, right?
You ask him about this connection, ask him that he did he, in fact, choose Scientology over his own daughter.
When's the last time you saw your daughter? When's the last time, you know, just these questions and and enforced reporters and anchors and hosts to to feel ashamed if they don't ask these really, really important questions of where's your best friend's wife?
Yeah. When's the last time you saw Shelly Miscavige, why haven't you said anything about her, right? Yeah, what about people being fair, gamed every day, their lives being destroyed? No, here's the examples.
Here's a website from Scientology accusing this person of inciting murder. You have your own church, has these websites up and put this picture up to somebody who's in the fucking KKK.
Yeah. And and, B, be well prepared, you know, what I would say is these these these anchors would not go into an interview with a member of Congress. Right, because some of them may be useless, but some of these anchors would not go into an interview with a member of Congress without knowing the policy. Exactly, standing and then having follow up questions when they answer you with their political fuckin bullshit, you're right there to go.
Well, let me grab that. Yeah. But what Scientologists, you pussy ass, they don't even get asked. You're sure you have riled me up? Well, that's what I've always done for five years. If you Odzala, I give you give me a shot up.
But I love you. I cannot thank you enough. You're sure it was what you do not only for us, but for speaking the truth to power, for being brave, to do so with.
Some pretty tough critics and attacks you.
You it's not just us. So I thank you for all that.
You do your share and I love you. I love you. So I love both of you. You're a brave man. Your show. We appreciate you greatly. I take your lead wisely. Thank you very much for having me. Thank you for being here. Hey, everyone, I'm good, and I'm Wembley's tool, and together we are hosting the official companion podcast for the Biomax original series Generation in Generation, the podcast.
Judy and I are going to chat with the show's actors and writers, ultimately peeling back the many layers of the most complex generation ever. Listen to Generation, the podcast on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
So we're starting, we're rolling. Are we already recording, looking at your notes? This is so official. Hey, guys, it's Brian Baumgartner. Maybe you've heard my podcast, an oral history of the Office, where we go deep into the making of the show now. Well, you can go even deeper. That's what she said, because I am sharing my full length conversations with the cast and crew of the office. Listen to the office deep dive on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.