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This episode is brought to you by Comcast since 2011. Comcast has connected more than four million students from low income families to the Internet. Now they're launching more than 1000 Wi-Fi connected lift zones and community centers nationwide to provide safe spaces to get online. Learn more at Comcast dotcom slash education. Hello, everyone, welcome to another episode of Scientology Fair Game, the podcast. We have yet another special and very distinguished guest who made us wait, by the way, so that he can pour himself a drink.

Well, that's job anyway, why? Would you like to introduce you guys have long a long history together, but my good, good friend at this point.

Yes. And one of the truly. Old school investigative reporters, he's also a very accomplished writer who's written a dozen books, including a very good book about Scientology called Scientology Church of Fear. He was a reporter for a long time for the BBC for Panorama, which is how I first came to meet him. He is now recently embarked on a new career as a podcast, having put together an incredibly successful podcast called Hunting Ghyslain about Jeffrey Epstein's former lover.

And that is now being, I just read recently converted into or turned into a TV series by Sony Pictures TV. So it's with great pleasure that I welcome to our little chat session today, my friend John Sweeney. Hello. Hi, how are you?

Well, before we start, I just want to get one thing clear. Oh, Jeff, you you were not OK, we got that sorted. Excellent, excellent. No, that's better for people that don't know what that is about. This was the first show that John did about Scientology when Tommy Davis and I were assigned the task of money and.

Well, yeah. Yeah, but she was a bit. We'll get there.

We'll get that. Were assigned the task of dealing with John Sweeney.

And part of that was the Scientology tactics literally driving someone to the point of breaking. And there are various techniques that he used. But Tommy Davis was very, very certain that he could drive John Sweeney absolutely psychotic. And he reported this as a fact to David Miscavige.

And then in the middle of the the tour of the the crazy anti psychiatric industry of Death exhibit. That's on Sunset Boulevard in Hollywood, California, everybody. There you go, so you can go if you if you please do.

Yes, it's right there on Sunset Boulevard and it's called, what is it called by the industry of death.

No, but it's it's what is sad for all of the citizens, the Citizens Commission on Human Rights.

And I please I implore people, if you're doing a tour of Hollywood, please take take a minute. Take a look.

But any event at Tommy was cutting John off. Every time he tried to say something, Tommy would jump on him and cut him off.

And it was just antagonizing, antagonizing, antagonizing.

At the end, John sort of lost it and started screaming at Tommy about something that Tommy was claiming. And he, John, infamously or famously at this point, screamed at him and said, you were not there at the beginning of the interview.

And a video was made and a CD was put out and all sorts of things were done seeking to discredit John. And so that's so.

So let me can I just stop you there? Because.

Yeah, you know, we've we've long argued this point I've argued this point with John because John felt like this was this was him coming undone. I coming from a very loud East Coast family and knowing what John had been what he was being put through by you and Tom Davis and you.

Oh, I was the nicest of everyone in this fuckin equation.

You were still bloody awful, though. You know what, John? You could fuck yourself because if you're saying I was not awful. No, no, but fuck you, sir, because I was to even put me in the same category as what you were dealing with from an archer from Kirsti. I was concerned I was wrong, but I was concerned when you went into the bathroom, you were just changing your mind. But I thought at that point you were upset.

And I said I came to the door and said, are you upset? And then I got in trouble from Mike and Tom Davis going, What do you give a fuck if an ESP is upset or not?

Don't fucking ask what is OK? Who cares if he's upset and I got in trouble for that. So that might not have seemed like that. That maybe didn't seem like much to you, John. But but Mike can attest to me having any sympathy for you was was going out on a limb.

Oh it was. That was a big big no no. Absolutely big no. No. Yes. But in any event, John, John took a lot of heat over his outburst. But ultimately, it wasn't an outburst over his reaction to being to being to being abused by you and Tommy Davis.

I thought his reaction was quite called for and justified. And he was only reacting to to, I think, appropriately to the abuse that he was receiving anyway.

You all want to call it an outburst. And all I'm going to say is that at this point, John has embraced this so much that his Twitter handle is at John Sweeney Raw.

I, I make a I make a habit when I do talk sort of the students, universities and also skeptic's clubs in Britain. I've done one in my very bad Italians who initially allocated Labora the church affair. But I always make a point of showing off of a TV screen of showing me losing it to the students so that when I said this is if you ever think you might be a bit embarrassing on television, look at this, by the way, that you can see it all on YouTube.

There's the clip. Forty seconds of me screaming my head off. And I said at the time, I sounded like an exploding jet engine, an exploding tomato or engine exploding anyway.

But it's it was it was in a moment of real anger for which I apologize then I apologize now because people in the public eye should lose the temper. But also, in a funny way, it was kind of like a hand grenade into the whole nonsense.

The Church of Scientology, which both of you were trapped there at the time. I do remember that Lear was easily. No offense, Mike, the best human being of all of you. I was a bit like Spock. She was half human.

I mean, like, what's wrong with this woman?

And the thing is, anyway, we put out this film called A Scientology and me and of course, the BBC being anxious about any any BBC reporter behaving in an unseemly fashion. And I had, according to the BBC, canon behaved very unseemly way to be fair to me. I didn't swear. I think if I said it like you were there, the fucking beginning of the interview, they would have sacked me. And also the BBC. But also I lost my temper grammatically in in sentences very loudly.

But I didn't break the rules of English grammar. And that's an important point in my favor as well.

I, I think you deserve points for that.

I mean, you know, the toilet thing was a joke. It was just I was sick of Tommy and I went into the loo with Sarah Remold, my brilliant and clever producer, and Bob Brown, my brilliant and clever Northern Irish cameraman. And and what I can remember of it and we can hear it is not you there, though. You may have said. I see. OK, but we didn't hear that. What we heard was. With steps approaching and then there's Tommy knocking on the door, yeah, hey, hey, you OK?

Why are all three of you in the toilet? Is this some kind of BBC policy? And I go, it's a BBC requirement, but it was. Yeah, yeah. But the thing is that eventually in the in the psychiatry industry of death thing, Tommy got to got to me. What's fascinating about this experience was that. In a kind of you know, we're reliving it now. And it was very, very strange and I thought, you know, they might sack me.

The bosses at the BBC and they went in. There was a long, long silence. And I can I can remember being avoided. And after they'd gone away and looked at all of the tapes, every single second of it.

They came back and I can remember the deputy director general of the BBC, I bumped into him in the corridor.

And instead of hiding or running away, which is some of the time I did that, the guy said, Hello, John, meaning I was I was no longer unperson. Oh, OK, that's good. OK. And there was a moment and then I thought I sort of walked past him and I just saw Hello, John. That means they're talking to me. That was going to suck me right is how it works. You know, it's a bureaucracy.

Well, let me ask anyway.

But it was so but inside it it was deeply comic and rather frightening.

Sure. And kind of what the fuck is this thing that's invading my brain and what we know what it is.

It's the church affair. It's the church that likes to wear dark glasses.

Now, can we go back for a minute? I want to just get your where your interest in in in exposing Scientology began, where could you take us through to to getting to Mike? Because Mike was and I want you to talk about Mike, if you can, when when John's telling his story because I wasn't there. All right. I wasn't part of the Office of Special Affairs.

So I'd like to know because I know you even have I don't know if this was in your story, John, which was an amazing story to the piece you did with Mike, that the texts that were going back and forth to David Miscavige from Tom Davis, is that in the piece?

Oh, so my favorite. So what we don't know is the story behind this.

Exactly. That's that's why I want to go through it. So where were you? Where was your interest in Scientology?

So it starts from a simple thing, which is that I've always been both my sides of my family, the Sweeneys and the owners have always been fantastic storytellers. And the most I'm not saying that now, but OK, I'm the best story. By the way. I'm kind of a Welsh, Irish, Irish, Welsh ancestry, but I do love an Italian drink and I'm drinking as well as he holds up. He does have a really nice hefty glass of wine.

And it's a lot where I ask you out. It's a horrible, horrible in the morning.

And so. I'm interested in being a good storyteller, and the best stories are stories powerful people do not want. All right, you shut up. So it's an easy step, but ceremonial. And I started with we did a documentary about Kabbalah called Witch Madonna was hooked into for a while, which Rick Ross said this was kind of Jewish Scientology. I it and it was very funny. And then we thought, hey, we've done Kabbalah Center, let's do the T-Rex.

No serious romantics, which is your your New Jersey. And she talks about this and she says, Hey, John, you seen Karasek Park?

Yeah. Yes, I've seen Jurassic Park. Yeah.

You know, that bit. Well, they have a code and I have the guy and they wait for the T-Rex to come and get it. Well, Joel, you're going to be the toughest guy, you know.

Yes, I counted and that was my job. And she's working out. What happened was that if I was tethered, the T-Rex would come and get me right.

What we had to do was always have two cameras with us at all times, OK? And I have to wear two separate sound packs on my suits in case one fails all the time.

OK, it meant going to the toilet, a complete fucking nightmare, frankly, because it was like unzipping, you know, an astronaut from Apollo 11.

Every time I watch, however, it meant that every time the T rex of Scientology attacked, yeah, we had it on camera. We never lost a second. Towards the end. We had so much. We were staying in the same hotel as Louie through. And he said, look, look, there's a private eye there. Who's spying on. I said, no, we got him a week ago.

It's fine. Don't worry.

So Louis Theroux's doing a number of his programs about cosmetic surgery. And he was doing then as we were, we had so many private eyes in our hotel spying on us. It was like bad version of 80s Space Invaders. Go away. Go away. Right. Right. I mean, we only pick the best ones. You know, all this from when you were kids. But basically, Scientology says it's a religion, but it uses things like fancy toys and nasty private eyes to spy on you in the way that, in my view, no proper religion should ever do whatever ever do.

Right.

In the course of this, we go we write to the church and Mike and when do we meet you, Mike, to meet you in the States?

First of all, no, in England. Then I look at Saint Hill.

Actually, I came there with Tommy and I and some lawyers, I think Bill Walsh and and but there were no cameras.

It was the right thing. Right. Right. And the thing is that you you showed us a video and like it was and OK, you after an hour, can we talk about what we're going to do here? And they said, no, no, no. You've only watched the first you need to be four hours of this. And this was North Korean style indoctrination. By the way, folks, I eventually went to North Korea and I'm that's kind of like Scientology without Tom Cruise, but with nuclear weapons, it's the same kind of nonsense anyway.

No, wait, before you move forward, Mike, so you you and Tom Davis, now you're not only you out of the Seahawk now, you should just say and you are not a Scientologist or subscribe to anything. Scientology by Tom Davis, who was the former spokesperson for Scientology, is no longer in the Sea Org, but he is still very much a Scientologist, right? Yes, that's OK.

So what is the so what are the what what's going on now? Behind the scenes, you hear about this guy who's coming, who's doing a story about Scientology. First thing on the checklist is get him to see the amazing four hour nonsense video that we you guys are not saying that you're you're saying, OK, so the first thing he has to do is watch this four hour video. Well, and hopes and hopes that what that he'll be like.

Holy shit, this is amazing. Let me know story. You really believe that? And Mike. Absolutely. OK, this it wasn't just one video, Leah. It's like all these videos that you have seen yourself. Yes. You know, this one about the drug rehabilitation program. There's one about the exploits of. A volunteer ministers, one explaining what the dynamics are. There's one message you're giving me flashbacks. Stop, stop the countdown. Just take another sip.

Take another sip. It'll be OK. I'm not going to make you watch another video.

OK, so so then if anybody. And then there was these huge binders that we took that had like pictures of all of the OG's around the world and all the happy, smiling people and success stories.

And it was like an endless presentation of look here this and this is the mindset that Scientology operates on when dealing with the media is they never get the story right because they don't understand what Scientology is really doing.

So we're going to give it all to them and explain and show it to them. And then maybe someday someone will get the story right and OK, that is what that was about.

OK, then the second tier is if that doesn't work, if John Sweeney is insistent on telling the story of Scientology, then then what are the what are the the directives given then to you as the head of OSA or part of us or go then?

Then the first thing that happens is find out everybody that he's talking to or everybody that the reporter is talking to and provide a dead agent pack about each person.

And that is the evidence that shows that they are an unreliable source, that they can't be trusted.

So fair gaming. Now, John Sweeney, so already the now are these drawn up plans or they've written, OK, this is what we're going to do. Yeah. We're going to attack John Sweeney. We're going to find out everything we can, every piece of dirt to then silence him. Yes, that's another. Well, there's two parts. One is discredit all the sources, but then ultimately discredit John Sweeney or Anderson Cooper or whoever or Tom Tobin or Joe Childs or whoever the reporter is with their bosses so that their bosses start doubting whether the information or the story that they are seeking to put on the air is accurate or not.

So you guys were doing that. You were sending a bunch of shit PR about John to the BBC, to his bosses at the BBC and to anybody else who would listen.

In fact, there was an entire video put onto a DVD that was sent around to members of parliament and religious leaders and people in the media and media critics.

And I mean, it was like this huge production done by Golden Era Productions.

It was very well done. And it was called Black Paroma. When Sarah and I watched it, we thought, well, that's the technical quality of it was streets ahead of anything poor old BBC Panorama could do. Not really good.

Its content was crap, but, well, it was sort of thing.

And and everybody always hated everybody who had a go at me and I can't go, aha.

But, you know, meanwhile we're being spied on. But why the other piece of context, which I'm going to remind myself that Mike was in the whole erm when only when we started knocking on Scientology's door, Mike was in the in the whole playing musical chairs, the Sound of Music, Bohemian Rhapsody, punching people to have the honour to to serve Miscavige being punished or whatever it was year and only got him out, you know. And then right.

Because Right.

Let's pause there because at this time, Mike, you were in the hole being abused with other senior executives of Scientology. They let you come out, get a reprieve from the abuse to now conduct this operation on John Sweeney, correct? Yes.

I mean, there's a little more to that story, but add to it if you want. Well, I was in the hole and I had been replaced by Tommy Davis, and he was fucking. And Tommy Davis was. Was. Charged with dealing with John Sweeney and Sarah Marshall, but didn't wasn't doing a satisfactory job in the eyes of David Miscavige, Sir David Miscavige pulled me out of the hole, took me into a conference room with with Tommy Davis there, and told me that I was going to be Tommy Davis's lackey and that I was to do whatever he said.

David Miscavige called me and said, your actual duty is to report to me directly everything that Tommy is doing OK? In other words, I was to be a spy to let Miscavige know what Tommy was up to. Right. The next thing that happens is I something occurred. I can't remember what. And Tommy didn't handle it right. Miscavige calls me up and starts screaming at me. What the fuck you are letting him do this for? Why is he what the fuck is Tommy Davis doing?

Why is he doing this? You're fucking there. You should be handling this.

The other thing is that at this point, Tommy Davis is, you know, he's the daughter of an archer whose son. Son, sorry, is the, um.

Well, we'll fill in for you as your Italian is the Italian one is stronger than I thought you fought. Anyway, Tommy Davis is the son of an archer who's Bunnie got boiled in Fatal Attraction, whose Hollywood, et cetera, et cetera, and Hollywood gold. And he looked the part very much. He looked like a kind of very, very natty, maybe a lawyer and in a movie or something like that, and still beautifully dressed. Mike, on the other hand, who spent, I think, the last four years well off and on.

Yeah. Yeah. But spent anyway, it it looked as though you hadn't you were really thin and it looked as though you hadn't seen the sun for months. You looked like a prisoner from the gulag and and also you weren't allowed to speak or engage with us then that changed slightly over time. Right. You were like a ghost, like somebody from a horror movie.

And you stared intensely at us.

And I can remember Sarah and I having a conversation with Sarah said, I can you know, I can live with me. But Mike Rinder, he really, really gives me the creeps. And so, you know, what's so weird about that is now I would I would completely reverse that point of view. And some there's some weird dynamics go on. But anyway, there on our case all the time. And we start in in Florida. We start in Cleveland.

And there's a thing about water which is not clear yet. So I've got two things wrong. Cleveland, Ohio, Cleveland, Cleveland Street in Clearwater, Florida. Yes.

But anyway, we we saw and there's a thing that happens, which is a reason why the BBC can't sack me. And I never, um, I didn't talk about it at the time, but my father had just died and we buried him. And then I flew to the States and I think it was March the to Ron Hubbard's birthday. And that was the first event. And literally the day, whatever it was, the Wednesday I flew on the Thursday arrived Friday, something like this was our first day with the chutes.

And my mother has since passed away, obviously. But she thought that the reason I got upset was I was still dealing with the grief of my father dying. I don't know about that. He was a lovely man and he died. And I and I when an old person dies, it's not as bad as when, you know, it's nothing like as bad as when a young person dies. So I'm not sure about that. But anyway, that's the context.

And I go that in a funny way. It was great to work and it was great to to to start Bartolome. We we rockhopper the L. Ron Hubbard birthday thing and I try and get in and security dismissive of you go and then we interview a couple.

You are very nice to Mike and Donna and their members, and they're they're angry and upset that they wasted so many years of their lives and so much money on the Church of Scientology. And in the end, we get the interview in the can. And Mike in particular has got to his father died and. He had something like six children and five out of the six didn't turn up his death bed, didn't turn up to his funeral because they disconnected him.

So this was powerful evidence that Scientology was a nasty organization. Tommy Davis turns up at midnight with a cameraman march there to another hotel and they hijack us. But according to general ceremonies instructions, we have a small camera which Sarah has been hammering. She gives it to build her films and she films everything. Bill gets his big camera and so we don't lose a second. And this confrontation in the hotel, Tommy, I said, you know, I'm disgraceful.

I've been talking to these horrible people. You're disgusting, whatever it is. And I grab his microphone and said, well, you've been spying on us. You've been spying on the BBC. And frankly, that's a bit weird. Here's your microphone. And so this was the first battle of the war. And and we felt from, you know, that's that's fun.

So what the fuck are they going to do next? And it kept on and on and on. We interviewed Sean Homestyle. I interviewed Sean Lonsdale on the roof of a car park overlooking Scientology place in Clearwater. And I can remember Bill's voice, Northern Irish, wonderful, very, very funny looking Irish cameraman, a great cameraman, never Mr Shorten. He said it's Tommy Davis. And like I said, it was with his with, as Mike said, with the rap sheet, with the kind of dead agent file and I and Tommy face, you can watch it.

And the videos on YouTube, Scientology made Tom Allen face up to this. And I said, you know, why wouldn't you give us some access? It's almost as if we got something to hide. I've got nothing to hide. And on faces like this. Yeah. And when we looked at the rushes, Sarah said, I think you two found each other.

That's funny.

But no, I know I don't know about Tommy.

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But, Mike, this had been going on for how long? So you guys were following him carrying on with these black operations behind the scenes, and this is all very normal for us, right? This is very, very normal to be doing this to a journalist.

Absolutely. 100 percent. This was just standard operating procedure now. And it went on like John like he said. John and Sara arrived in Clearwater for the March 13th event with the idea that they were going to ask to interview David Miscavige because they knew he was going to be there for the event. Right. Smart thinking. Tom was already there. I get a call in the middle of the night and get escorted out of the hole and flown to Clearwater to come and be with Tommy so that I can watch Tommy do what he does, but also from that.

But to just stop the story from being told.

Absolutely that and everything that was being done was an attempt to stop, either. Intimidate, yes. Intimidate the people that they were going to be talking to, provide dead agent material on the people that were going to be talking to or literally just intimidate John and Sara into backing off and sort of bailing on the the what was the main focus that John had, which was David Miscavige has physically assaulting people. This is something that he had heard from a number of witnesses.

Jeff Hawkins, you know, some of the people that, you know, Jeff Hawkins, Bruce Hines and others. And he was pursuing this. And this was the big oh, these guys have got to be stopped because that was directly targeting David Miscavige. It wasn't even the or this is just going to be bad about Scientology. No, this is going to be bad about David Miscavige.

So the pressure on Oza to act and do anything and everything to stop this was probably more than any other media that has ever happened. Right. I mean, put aside Paulette Cooper and the years of of her fair gaming. But with respect to this Panorama program, I think that was the most intense and extensive effort to stop that program. I mean, from the moment John and Sara arrived in Clearwater, the entire time they were in Clearwater, when they went to Berkeley to see Margaret Singer and and Bruce Hines and whoever to when they went to Los Angeles, to when they went to the gold base, to when they went back to Los Angeles, they were followed 24 hours a day.

The every action of them was monitored. Every single thing that they did was tracked.

Montignac flew. Mike flew in the same plane that we did. From where were you aware of that, John?

No, because we we didn't we didn't realize that Scientology was quite this fucking crazy. Right.

And anyway, we go, John, because, John, you had you had gone undercover, you were reporting in North Korea, you you report on the Russian mafia, you are arrested.

I mean, this is right up there with with what you've experienced in terms of getting inside my head. Yes. Scientology was worse than all of the above. Wow. In terms of making you paranoid so that in places like North Korea, there is a bit of mind control going on, but. It wasn't a kind of assault on my conception of reality, so it got some are this is the the only time, you know, when I lost my temper, I lost my temper because I was afraid, because I was trying to push back.

Right. But some of the detail of this is is extraordinary. We anyway, we flew to we ended up in L.A. and then flew through in our Hotel Louise, a friend, and he's a good bloke. I said, look, this. And anyway, there was there was a private eye. I don't know how many private eyes there were in the hotel, but there was a guy and he was a black guy in a cowboy hat. So he was like super kind of in-your-face and kind of obviously there to deliberately intimidate.

And he was there at breakfast. And then and we what we used to do was shoot it about what happened was that Sarah would stand and put her head in the world and then move out the way. And then we go, look, there he is. Right. We did it again and again and again. And our rule was we have free hits, somebody behaving suspiciously, and then we do it towards the end. To be honest, I lost the plot and we were flying out from L.A. at LAX, what we call it.

I ended up lax drinking a gin and tonic and all my eyes had been drained next to her. I think I may be wrong an ordinary American businessman who was too close to us.

And then I did that thing with the ice will go just to annoy this guy because I thought everybody was Scientology.

Right. Are you? But I don't think you were you were probably not wrong. So there was a culture. Yes. I mean, hello, Jeremy Clarkson. Eat your fucking heart out here. Am I in L.A. in a car? And then we're being followed. We're being followed by two cars. I clock them and I kind of you know, I've been to Sarajevo during the war in Bosnia, so I know how to, you know, drive fast.

And when you're being followed, what you do is you turn down a side road to a Huey, you accelerate, turn down the side right to you, you wait. And then I predicted that a Kia Sedona would go past. Right. And I can remember saying it's just me and Bill in the car. And I said, I remember saying to Bill or maybe I'm being paranoid. And they said, because our orders and off we go and there's a chase.

I drive like, fuck. I mean, like we edited out how fast I was going lest I get booked by the LAPD and I catch up and I knock on the garage door. Excuse me, do you with the Church of Scientology and the guy's hiding his face. Well, fuck you, motherfucker, right? I mean, I, I don't swear on camera because I work for the BBC that time anyway. So it was so crazy all the time and everything that people like Russell Miller, who wrote this wonderful book, Their Face Massar, about a Ron Hubbard, everything he had said to me about they will come for you.

It was all true. And and the paranoia, the mindfuck was really, really intense. Having said that, there was an interesting dynamic. So at some point, you know this when I met you, there was a series of members of the Scientology and Archer. I said she said to me, do I look brainwashed to you? And I went. How dare you? I didn't say anything. I just. Yeah, sure, anyway, but you you were a human being.

And what was funny in retrospect was that you were having big doubts and you were going along to be a good trooper. But from the way you and I dealt with each other, I was trying to be fair to you when you were trying to be fair to me as a human being.

But I didn't know you were being directed by this sort of creep, higher intelligence, David Miscavige and its acolytes and all that stuff.

But I could tell that you were drifting. I sorry, at the time, I didn't know this for a fact, but I sensed that you were a human being. And in my book before you left, I wrote that you were the, you know, the nicest, most human. You will learn more about the most like the most like a human. Yes, you can. You will. And also also there was something about you from New Jersey, Brooklyn, New York, whatever it is, Brooklyn, somewhere in the in America.

Anyway, the you were a real human being who had been kind of mind for by the cold. But you're a real human being. Those words you could feel the pull of that tide of your basic humanity fighting your brainwashing. Yes. Thank you. I felt in real time and felt it. And I thought I. And also the other thing is I was incredibly rude to you because Sarah kept on telling me things and I was just like, so mind fucked.

I said, I'm terribly sorry. I've got no idea who you are. Right. Which is a terrible thing to say. Sure. I just feel like I was doing it slightly out of mischief because I think you're right. Are you, are you were you are taking the piss out.

But hey, I'm not another fucking zombie. It was what I was going for. But actually you were funny to be honest. I found you sexy and I kind of and you you got to smell that. I went, aha.

OK, well I got to stop it. Hey sweetie, you call me sweetie or something like that. Yeah. Yes.

Were zombie face renderers staring up right and dead and.

But there's a moment when we become weirdly you come as human beings, you become used to people. And there's a big moment where I say to Mike and we we we filmed everything endlessly. And remember Sarah's filming, Bill's filming. And so I'm told that he's got three cameras because, yes, frequently. So there's far cameras on us the whole time. Yes, yes. Yes.

And I say to to Mike, OK, you know, why can't I interview your pope? And Mike says, you can't interview our Pope, David Miscavige. There's a reason for that, John. I said, what's that? And he said, Because you're an asshole.

Sarah started laughing. Rollerbladed Bill you Bill. So to. Yeah. And there's a moment I can clearly feel it. Maybe I'm wrong, but Mike likes it, gets it that we're a team.

It's just the three of us. But we're a team and they know team. If I'm the the lead character, the reporter, it's entirely okay for the others, the producer and the cameraman to take the piss out of me. Yeah, I can laugh if the joke's on me. And it was funny and it was good. And there was a sense that Mike wanted to be in our gang. We could take the piss out of each other in a friendly way.

Yes. Then in his gang where you couldn't write, could never.

No, no. You're absolutely right about that job. No, I mean, there's a thing called joking, integrating.

There's a policy called joking and degrading. You are not allowed to take the piss out of David Miscavige. Tom Cruise.

I mean, I did a whole video for a time. I was asked by Scientology and I was making fun of him. And I got called in and I said they asked me, who the fuck are you to be joking and degrading about Mr. Tom Cruise and his video?

And I thought, well, everybody else is going to be kissing his ass. I thought in the middle of this video comes me going, you know, Tom is so annoying. And I thought it was funny. I mean, and I got in trouble for stuff like, you're not allowed to do that in Scientology. Sorry, Mike ahead.

No, no, you didn't cut me off at all. I was agreeing with John that there was some envy of the the flippancy with which John and Sarah and Bill interacted.

And I wanted to say, Mike, that was probably the most unscripted thing you said. Right. Like, we're talking about the human side. That was probably the side of you that that was still there. Like instead of giving the rehearsed line from Tom Davis and and what's her name, who was doing the the the mouthpiece for David Miscavige and still is. What's his girlfriend's name, slash assistant? Oh, Lou, they are Laurice. This was not written for you.

This was just right, Mike said, because you're an asshole, John.

Yeah. And in fact, it came after John had asked Tommy the exact same question and Tommy had given one of the scripts, you know, and ultimately inappropriate responses where he said, yes, I speak to David Miscavige because Tommy had said, no, he's too busy, blah, blah, blah. And John had questioned Tommy and said, how do you know he's so busy? Like what? Like, how do I know that he's even getting my messages?

How do I know he's even getting my requests? And Tommy had said, well, I speak to him every day.

And I was like a huge no no, because Miscavige had maintained he knew nothing about Panorama and the BBC. He was too busy doing all this other stuff he couldn't be bothered with. And and nobody was going to interrupt the pope in his in his busy schedule to deal with a minion like John Sweeney.

Right. And that actually Tommy's response. Which preceded mine, and then John turned to me and my response was, because you're an asshole, Tommy's response was what caused him to then get in his car and drive to Las Vegas and hide out in the Wynn Hotel where Davis, Tommy Davis, because he was raised then there was a tax rate that said, you fucking asshole, why would you fuckin say that? You're talking to David Miscavige?

I don't think that there is a tax. Maybe there is like it, doesn't it? And whatever he knew, he was now in deep shit hole, so tort.

So John and Sarah and Bill get on the plane to go back to London. And the next thing I know, Tommy Davis doesn't show up. He's supposed to be going to London, too, because they're going to go do filming there. And John Travolta is about to have the premiere of Wild Hogs at Leicester Square. And Miscavige is paranoid that John is going to show up for the press junket for the film.

Right. And so I get sent out on the whole again on a flight to London and dispatch to see John Travolta at the Canary Wharf Four Seasons Hotel, where they were setting up the press junket to prevent John Sweeney from speaking to him.

And as John alluded to earlier, ultimately me being in London and then another interaction that I had with John on the doorstep of the Tottenham Court Road Scientology test centre was one of the final straws that I then when I'm out of here, and as John quite rightly says, I am a big reason that you are no longer in Scientology and the Sea Org and he is absolutely correct about that.

And I have thanked him profusely many, many times.

Now, look, we stop for one second, John. I remember there is some footage of you guys and he's saying, does David Miscavige beat you down? David Miscavige beat you and use and just like John refer to you, you looked gaunt, you looked grey, you looked really beaten up and. Yeah. And you said that is a lie, that is. But you knew you were lying at that time, right? Well, what was that?

What was it? Because throughout all of this, Mike, there was just a moment where you were like, I'm lying. What this man is saying is true. He's not the enemy. He's not everything that I was taught to believe.

Yes. And I had Leah I had lied a lot for Scientology to me all.

Have we all and lied about and particularly like, you know, I I was on the Today Show with Katie Couric and she asked me about Xenu in 03 and I just flat out lied.

But I believe that what I was lying about was a worthy it was a good lie.

It was no, it was it was noble of you for the greater good. Right. And then here I am standing in in Tottenham Court Road, Scientology Centre with John. Asking me, he's saying, I've got witnesses that say they saw David Miscavige beating you, I like verified witnesses and I knew exactly who had talked to Bruce Hines and Jeff Hawkins and other people. I knew Jeff Hawkins. And besides, I've been there.

They had witnessed it. And I am starting to threaten. I will sue you. You put that on the air, will sue you, and then I sort of walk away from that and I go, what the fuck am I doing? Like, is this really why I got in Scientology? Like, I'm here defending and protecting someone who is physically abusing people for what reason? And it still wasn't enough to get me to walk out the door that day, because primarily the thing that was holding me was what do I do?

I can't abandon my children. I can't abandon my wife. I can't figure out how to get them, but I can't leave them.

And then the the final straw was Miscavige sending a notice or a dispatch, a letter to Bob Bob, whatever his name was, the Post Bureau UK, the guy that was the local contact originally.

Yeah, yeah. I can't even think of his name now with the S.S. to me saying Lorinda's never coming back to the US. I'm going to send him to Western Australia. He can go if he can't make any money there, he can sell his body on the street. And I'm like, well, I don't have a wife and children anymore. I'm being banished to the nether reaches of of the farthest, remotest place in the world. Nothing. I've got nothing left to lose, right Scientology wasn't too concerned with they do this all the time, right?

They send, you know, Sea Org members to other continents. I mean, they don't they don't give a shit. But now I just I just want to be clear about something. When you say a band in your family, OK, that would imply to somebody who's not well versed in Scientology that you were supporting your wife, your ex-wife and Scientology, supporting your son and daughter in sight, you hardly saw them. They were being raised by the sea organization as they had been.

You you did not you were not financially responsible for them their whole lives.

It wasn't a traditional it wasn't a family.

I mean. That's right. Yeah. So right. But I understand you wanted to be the same in the same country at least. Right. And you might see them every four years. Go ahead.

Also, the consequences to them of me leaving in an unauthorized fashion were not going to be good.

The consequences to the rest of my family, they're all now have a big suppressive person that is a part of their family that's always difficult to deal with, particularly when you're in the Sea Org. So I didn't want to burden them with that. I understand.

I understand. Now, let's just fast forward. So, Mike, you end up leaving Scientology and then you start speaking out against you reported all these crimes to the FBI, to the local police. You told your story to the authorities. They did nothing.

There's a moment after I lost my temper. Anyway, the phone goes out and this is before Twitter, before Facebook's big, big. But nevertheless, lots and lots of e-mails coming in. And then I'm I'm I'm worried that the BBC has its ass inside me. But it might and basically it's a bit like the emperor going like this waiting for the plebs to go like that. Yeah. Thumbs down. Right.

And there's this Cromvoirt. We put the we anyway, just before Saturday. The program goes up Monday night on Saturday. Scientology puts the clip of me screaming out my son Sam is his training gym with his mates in front of a screen showing BBC News, and his mate looks up and he says, look at that nutter screaming.

And Sam goes, That's my dad, you know.

Oh, my God. And then for three days, well, from Saturday through to Monday, I got hammered in particular by American, you know, like, look at this. This is not how you should do it anyway. When the show goes out, you know, I say I'm very sorry, I apologize and I apologize. Now, I apologize for losing my temper, but look at what they did to me and then we set it out.

Yeah, the case of the defense. Right. And it is every fucking doorstep, every spying attempt, private eyes, the car chase, all of the nonsense you, you and all the others saying Lord Xenu doesn't exist. I don't know what you're talking about. Maybe just a bit crazy. Right. But we all know who fucking Lozano is. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, the response from the British public is five million people watch the show and as a result, it's one of the best rated panoramas in recent history and not become a rock star immediately.

Yeah. Two years later, I'm arrested by the Pakistani secret police who threaten to kill me and my crew in a in a in a in a subtle way, but nevertheless, say, who are you and what you who do you work for? I work for the BBC. Here's my passport. They took my passport, my BBC pass. It disappeared and then the guy turned to me and said, who do you and who do you work for?

And I said, Well, I've got seven million hits on YouTube.

Look me up. Right, right, right. And then he came back and then one of the people came back with my passport, said. I'm terribly sorry there's been a mistake, and then a couple of years later, I'm arrested by the KGB, the FSB in Russia, next to the Georgian border. Who are you? You're not a journalist. Where's your press pass? The foreign ministry won't print it because they've run out of ink. They just fucking with me and they say you're not a journalist.

Yes, I am. I've got seven million hits on YouTube, whatever. I you know, if you add them all together anyway, they say, no, you're not. Yes, I am. And then I showed them the clip and they start laughing. Then one of the KGB guys goes off and makes a phone call. Income bank says, I'm terribly sorry we've made a mistake. So I'd like to thank the Church of Scientology for making me internationally famous.

Apology for it. But there's no reason for us to go.

And it's the only place on Earth that recognise me. I've been recognised in Egypt. I was undercover in Egypt doing a film about a migrant ship coming from Egypt going down. Lots of poor people died anyway. We were secretly filming. I'm undercover. I like Cairo Airport. We're leaving. And I forget we're on the cover and this Egyptian British guy says that's all about Scientology. I love that film. And I said, James Jones to my producer, this guy loved our film about Scientology and the airports and the notorious.

And James goes, for fuck's sake, Joe Moore on the cover.

But at the same time, yeah, there's something I want to say in a serious point, which is that I think Scientology is an evil cult of preys on people. And I salute the work that you, Leah and you, Mike and all the other people who've been on your show. Do I really, really think it's fantastic. There's something else, which is that the people in North Korea and, for example, in the Islamic State and other crazy cults around the world and also probably people who work for the Kremlin.

Who are locked in that kind of mind control and standing and understanding Scientology helps me understand the mindset of these people who are locked in these other things that kill people in a way that Scientology isn't. And the world of Scientology, people can end up dying because they're not looked after properly, but they're now afraid of that stuff or confirm deny any wrongdoing. Remember on that Britain, I'm worried about the libel laws. However, understanding mind control is important because the best way of fighting it and the thing they don't like most of all is mockery and I'm sure will.

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I go motorcycle fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more. I just want to go over one thing well, what one important thing that I think is important to today and thank you for all that you do, John, not just in the field of Scientology, but in what you've mentioned in your career. It does take somebody brave to do what you do. I'm a bit not.

Yeah, well, you need that, too. And thank you, sweetie.

Thank you. You're welcome, my love.

And by the way, that's not that's not I do talk like that. I call people baby and honey, and that wasn't my baby anyway.

So, yeah, you're preeminently even when you were a Scientologist, you were a human being.

I tried to be, but it took a long time for me to get out. And at that time, in my defense, I really thought what you were saying was insane because I hadn't heard anything about this ever. I wasn't on the Internet. I wasn't looking at those things. I was not that I couldn't. It just that I was taught way forward an enemy line.

I had never I had never heard this about Dave Miscavige. People wouldn't be talking about that at the Cafe of Scientology. It's just a no no. It's not something that Scientologists were doing that we just weren't talking about. Like you said, there wasn't social media. There wasn't. And if you clicked on something that was, you know, telling the truth about Scientology, you would have to pay for that literally like three thousand dollars to to to confess your sin of doing so.

So we just you just get taught not to do those types of things because why why forward an enemy line, which is what it's called.

But anyway, so so Mike, here we are. Years later, he leaves Scientology. Mike, there was a time when you had left Scientology and you weren't yet speaking. How many years had gone by? Between 2007 when I left and 2009, when the there were two years that went by right where you weren't speaking, you were you were getting your life together, you basically had to start from the beginning.

And they were great exes who left who were helping you to get your life in order. Right. How did you how did you heard from your son, your daughter, your seahawks' son Benjamin, and your and your Scientology, your daughter Taryn and your ex-wife Kathy in the two years that they call you and say, hey, you know, we're sorry you've been beat, you were being beaten and put through all of this, were any communication?

No one except for one letter.

That's a handwritten note from my ex-wife when I reached out and said I would like to be able to talk to you after shortly after I had left. And the response was, fuck you, I'm filing divorce papers, great little fuck you.

OK, do you have that, by the way? Yeah, OK. You should post it as well as well. Could we post the interview that you did with John Sweeney for Panorama on the. Oh of course. The Web site. Great, because I want people to see this. It was really, really well done.

There were two shows that I'll put the first one up, the one where I was attacking and trying to stop, and then the second one where I was sort of the feature of the show. Speak Me and Marty Rathbun speaking to John, explaining what had gone on in the production of the previous show. Great.

So in the two years that you left, you did not hear anything from your family except fuck you, I'm filing for divorce. Right. OK, and that was from your ex-wife, Kathy Bernarda. How do you say her name? Bernardini.

OK, and your daughter's name is Taryn TORC and your son's name is Benjamin Rinder. OK, so you hadn't heard anything and then you did an interview.

Who was the first person to do the interview with? With Joe Childs and Tom Tobin from the Tampa Bay Times, Tampa Bay Times, OK. Right now you find yourself sitting in a parking lot. How many years later?

That, I guess, was in 2010, I think in April of 2010 or thereabouts.

So three years later, three, let's say three years later, and you're sitting in a parking lot waiting for your wife. You had since remarried, which, by the way, John, was at your wedding, OK?

It was a great wedding on that one. The whole whole it was the one of the best weddings I've ever been to. And I had to spend my entire time reproducing the show. You were not there to all the Church of Scientology. So much so. I lost my voice.

You had a great time. So you're a big rock star there. So now you're with your you're at it. You're in a parking lot.

My doctors of a doctor's office at a doctor's office. And yes, you're sitting there and you're talking to John about this upcoming interview that you're going to be doing with him, right?

Well, actually, it was fact checking after the fact. But before the thing had aired that aired. Right. John was calling and saying, look, we've got some things we'd like to go over, some facts we'd like to check. You know, we have a fact checker here who is very diligent and we just want to verify this and this and this. And it's OK if I record you.

Yeah, I was recording it.

The fact checker was a BBC robot is a nice guy. He's a nice guy.

Now, though. Let's just set this up, Mike. So you're sitting in the parking lot waiting for your wife, who's in a doctor's appointment. Right, right. And up walks. Let's name who was there. Well, first, two cars pull into the parking lot and understand earlier this parking lot was very remote, not able to be seen from anywhere, OK?

Along of the two cars, hmm? Two private investigators, my ex-wife, my daughter, my brother now and brother Andrew, you had not seen in how many years?

Oh, I don't I you know, I actually don't know, like eight and seven.

So that didn't didn't call you after he knew that his brother was being beaten and abused and put in a hole. So he hadn't contacted you to say, oh, my God, Mike, OK, your daughter hadn't contacted you prior to this going dad that she didn't even call you dad, I'm sure. But I'm so sorry to hear this. I want to stay connected to you. Please don't leave Scientology.

You hadn't heard any of this shit, you know, but now that you're speaking publicly. Yes. They fly in your brother from fucking Australia. Right. OK. And my ex-wife and daughter from California came along with. Sue will hear from ATC now, who is she? She's just an executive in the religious technology center of the work directly for David Miscavige.

OK, good. And Jenny Linson and who she was in the Commodore's Messenger Org. and also was one of David Miscavige is right hand attack dogs.

OK, David Bloomberg, who was I don't know what he was at that time, he had formerly worked directly for David Miscavige at Ortho Services. OK, only serve who was the international executive director of Scientology, theoretically. OK. Uh, I think there's a rugby player.

There's a big guy. Yeah, that was Dave. David Bloomberg. OK, so this is a big guy. No, no, no, no. Mike.

So these are senior executives of David Miscavige, his personal organization, right? Yes. Except your brother Andrew. And you're right. Right.

He's he's a public Scientologist. OK, so now this is Scientology executives and clergy. These are people calling them. This is from a group calling themselves Church Religious People.

And they come up to your car as you're talking to John and Mike. But, Mike, what do you think the purpose of this is? What was the purpose of this happened? This happened two days after I have been called by Joe Childs at the Tampa Bay Times saying, Mike Scientology is saying that you're a terrible, terrible person because your son has cancer and you didn't even raise a finger to reach out to him to see if you could help stop right there.

And Mike, had you heard that your son had cancer from Scientology or your ex-wife?

Nope. Not hearing it from fucking journal reporter. From a reporter. So the following morning from that phone call, I drove to the Fort Harrison with Marty Rathbun to see my son or asked to see my son. I was stopped at the front door by private investigators and they called the Clearwater Police Department and issued a trespass warning against me and had me leave. Right, and now this is the that's the context which now what you're about to hear occurs, right?

So your son did not wish to connect with you and Scientology called resources of which they don't pay for in the Clearwater Police Department. And had you removed so they didn't give a fuck that you should be connected with your son. Your son didn't give a fuck to be connected to his father?

Well, actually, that's that's a bit more of a story, because it turns out that at the time he was trying to leave the Sea Org and couldn't go. And when the police eventually went inside, at my insistence to talk to him, they were escorted by several people from Oza and did not have a conversation with him by himself.

They had a conversation with him while he was being watched or overseen by the Oser people. So he did not he that didn't work out, unfortunately, but my yes point.

But since, Mike, your son has recovered, we should say this. Your son is fully recovered and doing well. However, Mike will receive no updates of the well-being of his son or his daughter who remain in the Sea Org. And and since Mike, your son has done a video, a smear video about you.

Yeah, more than one.

OK, let's play it again. I don't care. I can't I'm afraid to stand up and make this look like. Here, you're gonna. So. Right, let's talk for a second now, Mike, here is your this was your ex-wife screaming like a lunatic. That was any Linson most.

Oh, that was Jenny, OK. Yes, OK. But you're she's repeating this line. You deserted your family. You deserted your family.

Now, you hadn't heard from your family. Correct. And in fact, I had tried to go and see my son.

And you were just two days before and they had been Livy's people. They begged to fly these people out from California and Australia to come and assault me in this parking lot. And and Leah, that just goes on and on and on. And I tried to walk away from them and they prevent me from walking away. I try to get in. I had been walking in the parking lot. I tried to get into my car and drive away.

They prevent me from getting into the car. Then they take my car keys and they threw the car keys away. And then the doctor comes out of the office hearing the commotion and says, Should I call the sheriff's department?

I say, yes, call the sheriff's.

Now, John, what are you thinking when this is all going on? Have you I mean, you couldn't have been more shocked that you're on the phone checking, fact checking with Mike about it coming, a story about these lunatics.

What were you thinking when you heard all of this?

It's still upsetting, and I felt very, very sorry for Mike. I also feel, and this may be strange, but I want to express this, but I think these people have been his family members and so many other people who are family members inside Scientology are effectively captives. They have been their hostages who have been mentally kidnapped by the church, and they are being held and used as a kind of prisoners. And then they've lost to a mind control cult, all concerned deny any wrongdoing.

The Church of Scientology says that I'm a bigot on a fantasist.

So this would join the crew. Go ahead. Yes. So this is anyway, it was awful.

And I can remember I was in Belfast, weirdly, because Scientology so heavy duty. We did all of the Scientology programs out of the BBC office in Belfast, which had bomb proof because it bombed lots of times a lot.

And, you know, the security doesn't muck around, you know, good quality. And OK, so we're doing the Church of Scientology investigation in the BBC Belfast office, which is not proof anyway.

So, yeah, but I can remember feeling deeply upset for my career as a journalist. Yeah, that was a great fucking coup. And I press record and so completely not by accident, but it so happened that this tape proves. Without a doubt that Mike was attacked by.

A Church of Scientology attack using abusing his family members against him in the cruelest possible way and so on, I have no truck for the apologists or the people who say Scientology is not bad.

No, no, no, no. It's this is a dark, dark organization. But I am pleased. It's a good I've done some good stories in my time. But one of the things I've done is I you know. So, Mike, can you confirm that blah blah, blah, blah, blah, press record this and this and this and then this is attack. So I'd just like to say, fuck you, Church of Scientology, or confirm or deny any wrongdoing.

Stop laughing, sorry, you're from Brooklyn. Yes. This note. Clear water and yes, I do. I'm getting OK. Yeah, well, just to let you know, just to stick up for my New Jersey folks, I don't know if you've ever been to New Jersey, but hey, Rick Ross.

Rick Rick Rossland, you know, he's the I know he's got two terrifying yappy dogs.

And it was just. Oh, for God's sake. Anyway, he was a good guy. He said, you do Scientology, they will come after you. Sure. He was right now.

And they and it continues now that that that that tape that we have. Mike, I hope you post that as well. The whole I well, the whole attack on you. But what you should also post, Mike, is the Scientology video that came following that, where Kathy Bernardini, your ex-wife, has now retold that story. And to that you viciously attacked her for which she has permanent damage to her arm. Now, like like you guys mentioned here, the doctor seeing this attack as it goes on where they go, fuck you, fuck you, you piece of fucking shit.

Oh, fuck. They're like, it's crazy.

But I think that from the Vox's ex, what's her name again? Yes.

Jenny Swanson. Yeah, but yeah. But what? I'm saving the money. By the way, the Clearwater cops investigated and no charges were put against Mike because there was there was no evidence of any such attack. Mike was the victim of bullying attack by the Church of Scientology, using and abusing his family members. Monica's innocent. The police looked at it and thought, this is rubbish. We're not going anywhere.

Well, no, no, no. Let me let me go back. Kathy. No, actually, Kathy, because you Mike, the doctor there at Mike's request called the sheriff's department. They showed up. An ambulance showed up. Kathy never said to the police officers who were there taking a report that Mike had attacked her, the ambulance, the people who are tending to her. She said she had sustained no injuries, that she that required her being looked at.

Now, if you look at the Scientology video that Kathy and now her daughter Taryn are putting out, they are saying now the opposite of what they what Kathy didn't report anything at the time. And the police report as well, the that the people attending to her, quote unquote, injury was that there was inconsequential.

It was incidental contact that occurred when I was trying trying to get away. I was trying to leave them showing up at that. Kathy had sustained a graze on her arm of a patient that she considered to be a pain level of between and on a scale of zero to 10 to be a two, and that she refused to be taken to the hospital or get any further medical attention or treatment.

The problem is the only thing is I managed to take this call and therefore you can hear the aggression from Scientology under the monks being entirely reasonable and. And so this didn't work and the authorities didn't go anywhere with it because it's nonsense. There is a wider problem because while we were making certainly the second film, we were aware that there was a parallel investigation by the FBI into Scientology, which went nowhere. Uh. Why? Because I think that, um, the FBI and the government in the United States, like many other governments around the world, is afraid of taking Scientology on.

I think it's a confidence trick masquerading as a religion and that should be stripped of its charitable status in British terms, one of the language, but of the precise language you use in the states, you get my drift.

It shouldn't, um, it it's an organization that makes money like Coca-Cola. But Coca-Cola makes money out of selling sugary drinks. It's an organization that makes money out of fear and blackmail like the Mafia. So I always take offense to that. But go ahead. Sorry, I always take offense to that because I always say that the Mafia has some morals.

Yeah, I. That's the Brooklyn girl with some. New Jersey connection. I've seen a movie, by the way, home quickly overconcerned, deny any wrongdoing.

There is, of course, no suggestion that the church was wrong. So this is a bit of a suggestion because I think a British judge, an American judge in 1984, both accused the two judges separately accuse Scientology of blackmail and brainwashing. Both of those judgments stand. And I would stand on I agree with both of that. This is a church that lies and spies, wears dark glasses that brainwashes and blackmails. And it's not a church.

It's a criminal organization and also standing as a church.

You know, and John, the other thing, too, is that, like you said, like businesses like that that run like a business. Scientology has a price list and a preset priceless. So this is not a this is a for profit business. And so it should be it should be seen as that. And and you're exactly right. It should not have tax exemption while being a business for profit.

And the Fed should have a go. Yeah. Where's that ball, by the way? We've been talking now forever. Yeah, we're leaving. But listen, I just want to say that. Yeah, I want to say something. Here's the good news is I think this ontologies got a ton of money. But thanks to you two in particular, and also Lawrence Wright and Alex Gibney and all the other good people in the wonderful United States of America, which to my mind is one, it's marble's again.

You're making it suffer quite a lot.

So carry on doing what you're doing. Thank you, love. Cheerio, Governor. Thank you, sweetie. I love it.

Hey, Mike, I'm next summer in London. The bears are on me. Oh, literally, OK, while the fish and chips are on me, we should chip shop again the next time I see you.

John Sweeney, listen, we can't thank you enough for continuing to to answer the call.

When we ask you what you've done, the aftermath, you continue to to to speak out. And we really appreciate your time. And we should let you go. We appreciate you. We love you until next time. Thank you guys for listening.

Thank you. I just want to say one more thing. I got it.

Yeah. You can't take McSweeny out of it.

You can't take the raw. Yeah. Oh, I love you. Love you.

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