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[00:00:01]

Hey, I'm Steve Greenberg, the host of Eyharts new podcast, Speed of Sound. Speed of Sound is a music history podcast that gives you an all access pass into the songs and sounds that have become the soundtrack to our lives. We'll take you back in time and straight through today's charts to tackle Pop's top songs and most sensational scandal filled stories. Listen and follow the speed of sound on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast, wherever you listen to podcasts.

[00:00:35]

What if you can learn from 100 of the world's most inspiring women now you can introducing Senecas one hundred women to hear a new podcast brought to you by Seneca Women and I Heart Radio in partnership with PNG. I'm Kim Mazzarelli. In celebration of the 100th anniversary of American women getting the vote, we're bringing you the voices of a hundred groundbreaking and history making women listen to Senecas 100 women to hear and I heart radio Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:01:08]

Well, hello, everyone, welcome back to another episode of Scientology Fair Game, I think I got that right. Right? Yep, you got it right this week anyway. Once again, we have a guest that we just love and admire.

[00:01:23]

Paulette Cooper, thank you so much for joining us this week, Paula. It's such an honor and a pleasure to have you to talk to us. You, in my mind, of the the oji of fair game victims. You are the original and the you're a woman who survived something that I think is absolutely remarkable, not just your life vis a vis Scientology, but your life before Scientology.

[00:01:55]

And, you know, your whole story is just incredible. And it's such always such a pleasure to be able to talk to you. And let's get going here.

[00:02:06]

I was fascinated by you and your strength and your courage and you continue to talk, which is not usual for somebody. You were never a Scientologist. And I'm going to let you tell your story.

[00:02:17]

So let's go back, Paulette. Hi, my name is Paula and I. Hi there.

[00:02:24]

And I was born in Belgium during the war and I am Jewish. And my father was taken and killed in Auschwitz. And right after I was born, my mother was taken and she was killed in Auschwitz. And actually I have a blood sister and the two of us were also supposed to be taken to Auschwitz and killed and one week before we were saved. And how actually, I can thank my fight against Scientology for that. Why? Because I did not know how I was saved.

[00:03:07]

And what happened was that there was a news story about me fighting Scientology. And this was just a few years ago. And it mentioned that I was born and she was written by the story was written by Tony Ortega. And it mentioned that I was born in Belgium. So the story got picked up by the Belgian newspapers and the sister Dutch paper. And within twenty four hours after the story about my fighting Scientology and what they did to me as a result, I got an email from a man in Holland saying, I think it was my father who said to me, and he had various you know, he said various things in his email that he could not have known if he had not known my real family.

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OK, and it turned out that this man and my blood father, that's my father who was killed, had been best friends. And this man became the one whose father saved me. He became a very high ranking Dutch official and he bribed. The camp that I was in, the Nazi camp that I was in, he brought them to release my sister and me. And the transport to Auschwitz that I was supposed to be on carry fifteen hundred and fifty four people and not my sister and me.

[00:04:43]

Wow. And we ended up in a series of orphanages until I was six years old, at which point I was lucky enough to be adopted by a wonderful family. The Coopers and I became an American citizen. And I went to college, I got a master's degree in psychology, and I also studied comparative religion at Harvard one summer, so I was already interested in this area right after I got my master's and I moved to New York. Scientology was very, very popular and probably then they had maybe about one hundred and fifty thousand members between one hundred and one hundred and fifty.

[00:05:30]

Now, happily, it's down to under 20 and let's see it go even lower than that. Years, what years are we talking to? Nineteen sixty eight. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's very popular, as I said in those days and I, I went to work as an advertising copywriter and I had a boyfriend who joined Scientology. And then he said to me that he had learned that he was Jesus Christ in a past life. And basically, that led me to start to want to look into what was going on, because this was of stress, because it was as a friend of yours, right.

[00:06:13]

And then all of a sudden he was he's he's a boyfriend. Oh, yeah.

[00:06:17]

So he you know, him. And now all of a sudden this person is talking crazy. Exactly. So any concerned girlfriend would be like, what's going on? Exactly. OK. And so at that point, I was just starting to be a writer and I thought, well, you know, this might be something worth investigating. And little did I realize what I was taking on at that point. Right. I should have probably, because very soon after I first wrote an article that appeared in England and I began getting death threats.

[00:06:51]

But after the hour at the of the year, it was about Scientology. Yeah. In fact, the funny thing is that I didn't even know the article did come out yet in England. And suddenly I was getting death threats. And then I found out that the article had appeared right. And I began doing more and more research in those days. Investigative reporting was a hot subject and I had enough material for a book. And there has been no major exposes of Scientology up to that point, and I decided to write this book called The Scandal of Scientology, which sometimes I jokingly refer to now as the book that launched A Thousand Suits.

[00:07:36]

Right. Unfortunately, all against me. Right. Right and right. And the Scientologists did everything they could to silence me.

[00:07:45]

And they started this, you know, what we call fair game, the fair game process. Exactly. I was trying to destroy you. So the Democrats, all of this is part of the Fair Game Directive, right? Yes.

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You know, death threats seem like an odd thing to stop someone other than this is the we want you to be so scared and intimidated that you back off and become a dismissed attacker and you are no longer willing to open your mouth and say anything about us.

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And what were the authorities saying at this point, Paula, that when you were showing them that death threats, were they willing to deal with it or they didn't know what to do with it?

[00:08:26]

No, the people thought that this was just a nice little group. Like nobody really understood what a cult was at all until Jonestown. And that was, what, nineteen seventy five. Right. Until then, a cult was that that was people who listen to songs. Judy Garland. Right.

[00:08:46]

Right. So they were like, this is a church. They would never do this. Right. Right. Yeah. If you had to decide which one was crazy it was going to be they would decide. It would be interesting.

[00:08:56]

Right. OK, so you wrote the book. I wrote the book on Scientology. Yes, it's called The Scandal of Scientology. And by the way, I made it available on my website at like dot com. Anyone who wants to read it for free. Right. Right. Yeah. So anyway, all these things began happening, and it was just it got really, really very bad. They were death threats. We found that my phone had been tapped.

[00:09:25]

They were putting my name and phone number up on bathroom walls in the city. So men were calling me with these terrible, obscene calls. Everywhere I went, they were following me. But you know what Scientology calls, I believe, Noisey investigations. It's not as if they were trying to be quiet and that I wouldn't know it.

[00:09:49]

Right. Mike, do you want to join you want to explain what Noisey investigations are, Mike?

[00:09:54]

Yeah, it's it's exactly the same thing as I was talking about before. This is the we are going to intimidate you into silence.

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We are going to have private investigators overtly and very obviously following you with cameras in your faces.

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We are going to do things to you which are intended to intimidate you and make you decide this isn't worth the the hassle. This isn't worth the heartache. I'm just not going to carry on with this because it's just, you know, what have I got to gain out of this?

[00:10:31]

And but I just I just want people to know at home, though, that in your car, wherever you are, that that this actual policy and it's actually these words are used a noisy investigation.

[00:10:42]

And Mike, you should put it up on your blog and we'll have Paulette's links up as well, where you can read her book for free.

[00:10:48]

And also, Tony Ortega wrote a story. Wrote a book. Right.

[00:10:52]

Tony Ortega with with Paul with Rowlatt called The Unbreakable Miss Lovely. And we'll explain that later. But this will all be up on the blog for you guys to take a look at.

[00:11:04]

One day there was a delivery for me. And when it were flowers and I was not there, my roommate was there. She was my cousin, actually. She looked like me. She was a short brunette. And when she opened the door, the guy unwrapped the flowers and there was a gun in there and he put the gun to her head and either the gun misfired or it was empty. No one knows. She began screaming. Neighbors opened up the door and the guy ran off.

[00:11:42]

And that was very scary because I didn't know whether it was a murder attempt, whether it was to scare me like and you can talk about something called hour to forty five, which is what I think it was, because one woman who has since left Scientology wrote an affidavit saying that during this period of time she was at a meeting in which they were discussing using R to forty five against people like Cooper. Do you want to talk about our two forty five.

[00:12:13]

Yeah, very much.

[00:12:14]

Pull out. And particularly because there is a specific issue by L. Ron Hubbard in his own hand that says that if certain people are seen Sea Org members to employ up to 45 on them and are two forty five is the name that Hubbard gave.

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I want to say a joke but it's not like it's a funny joke as sort of a nod and a wink of this is a Scientology process, quote unquote, that will result in exteriorization, which in, in Hubbard's terminology is the spirit departing from the body and operating outside the body.

[00:12:59]

Well, it means death. Exteriorization doesn't count to death, but are to 45 minutes and you are going to exterior he an exteriorization process, instant exteriorization, put a bullet in someone's head and they are instantly exterior rise from their body. They are no longer there. In other words, they're dead. So are two. Forty 45 is a thing that is a shorthand use in Scientology for shooting someone in the head.

[00:13:34]

Right. And Mike, nothing about L. Ron Hubbard or Scientology is a joke. Everything that is put in writing from L. Ron Hubbard is followed to the T..

[00:13:45]

There's no wink wink and the reference to R forty five there, it's still in print. People are still seeing that. But certainly back things have changed. Mike, wouldn't you say? I mean, back then they were doing these types of things going this far. L. Ron Hubbard was still alive, but it's still there. It's still in writing. Their game is still alive and well.

[00:14:09]

And Scientology, I believe, tried to put out a statement once when I think that Tony Ortega write about it or somebody somebody in the press wrote about it. And Scientology, I think, responded with, oh, that was just a joke.

[00:14:22]

And if you know Scientology policy, there's nothing about Scientology. That's a joke.

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It's a matter of fact, there's a policy called jokers, integrators, and it's almost illegal in Scientology to be making jokes about Scientology in any way. I know, because I've been reprimanded for it many times.

[00:14:41]

Right. Yeah. What if you can learn from one of the world's most inspiring women now you can introducing Senecas One hundred women to hear a new podcast brought to you by Seneca Women and I Heart Radio in partnership with PNG. I'm Kim Azorella. In celebration of the 100th anniversary of American women getting the vote, we're bringing you the voices of a hundred groundbreaking and history making women listen to Senecas 100 women to hear and I heart radio Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:15:18]

I don't know if I brother was.

[00:15:28]

It was an unimaginable crime. There's blood all over the house. It was the second biggest mass murder in 2016 behind the Pulse nightclub shooting.

[00:15:37]

Eight people dead, all from the same family. It would become the largest criminal investigation in Ohio's history.

[00:15:45]

Pike County sheriffs requested state help immediately after they got word in the early morning of April 22nd, 2016.

[00:15:53]

Eight members of the rodent family were brutally murdered, shot to death execution style in their homes.

[00:16:01]

Eight victims, 32 gunshot wounds, three children left alive at the scene. This is the PYKEN massacre.

[00:16:14]

Listen to the pectin massacre on the I Heart radio app, on Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Pullet, was this man ever found, was any investigation opened, nobody knew anything that was going on on it, except I would say that I very, very fine, of course, and I decided to move almost immediately to a four man building, a much safer building. And I moved in, thought I was safe. And all of the tenants in the building, all three hundred of them received an anonymous mimeographed smear letter saying that I had moved in there, that I was a part time prostitute with venereal disease who had sexually molested a two year old baby girl.

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It was so weird. Now, maybe Mike would like to discuss this whole thing about molestation of children and how that often comes up in Scientology.

[00:17:18]

This is pursuant to the exact ideas laid out in the policy of you find things that are buttons, you find things that people find reprehensible, that people find touchy as subjects, and you start accusing the person who you are seeking to silence of those things.

[00:17:45]

And as Paulette says, the history of Scientology and its dealing with sexual molestation and the molestation of children is abhorrent.

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And a lot of it is founded in the beliefs that Hubbard had about children and what children are and how they react and how to deal with in law enforcement and et cetera, et cetera.

[00:18:14]

So you often see the accusations against people who Scientology is seeking to silence being the very things that Scientology is most guilty of. They accuse people of lying. They accuse people of being sex offenders. They accuse people of abusing other people of physical violence. So, yeah, you're right, Paula. That's exactly how it goes. I mean, that's why I said you are the poster child for fair game because, you know, everything that happened to you is pursuant to the policies that are laid out and those policies still exist.

[00:18:56]

And so they are still being done. Well, what happened next after that is almost immediately after I moved, I received a visit from two FBI agents and I was called before a grand jury and I was told that Scientology claimed to have received two bomb threats and that they named me as a likely suspect. Well, the whole concept was ridiculous. I didn't even take it seriously until I found out that one of the bomb threats had my fingerprints on it and that I faced 15 years in jail for sending bomb threats through the mail.

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And this was a very, very terrible time for me. Even now, I don't like to remember it. Of course, for eight months, I had 15 years in jail over my head. I was in danger of it was going to become a big news story and I was just going to be absolutely ruined, totally humiliated. I would embarrass my adopted parents, which I didn't want to do, and there was nothing I could do. I was not believe when I said I didn't do it, they did it to me.

[00:20:19]

They had come into the grand jury with their black clerical robes and a huge crosses and the jurors had to decide who's telling the truth. These nice religious people claim that they're being harassed by this writer or a writer who at 30 is is not married, is doing travel writing. So traveling around the world alone. And they decided that I was the one who must have done it. And I was indicted on May 9th, nineteen seventy three, I was arrested on May 19th, nineteen seventy three.

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And the man I had planned to marry left me because I went into such a terrible depression that I could not eat. I went down to eighty three pounds. I was living on one hard boiled egg and a glass of tomato juice and lots and lots of vodka and Valium. For eight months, I was just a total wreck. I couldn't even leave my apartment during that time. And I had a job to work and I met this guy. Who had moved into my building?

[00:21:48]

And he offered to walk the dogs and the dog I had won and to help out, and then I could no longer work, I could no longer write. So he suggested that he move into my place and he could take care of things and he could walk the dog and pay half the rent. And I said, OK. I mean, I was so depressed. It was good, actually, in its own strange way to have somebody there.

[00:22:18]

Right. And one of the things that is always really, really upset me is that there was a pool up on the roof of my building and most of the time he would go up there. I later found out that he was using the payphone, but he got me to go up a couple of times with him. And on one occasion he jumped up on the ledge is a very gutsy guy. And he had been a helicopter pilot in Vietnam.

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He jumped up on the ledge and he said, come on, you got to come up here and show those bastards how strong you are and that you're not afraid of anything so that you can face the jurors for this trial. Come on. And thank God I was afraid of heights and I was in such a state that I just sat on the chair, huddled and cried. I couldn't get up there. And when five years later, I found out that he was a Scientologist, that he was calling in a diary every day on what I was doing, what the lawyers were doing, what I was wearing so I could be followed on those days that I had to go out and writing things.

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Here's this guy who was my best friend saying today she's talking about suicide. Wouldn't that be great for Scientology? And I do believe that the his plan was to get me up there. And I was in such a suicidal state at that point that it would have been tremendously easy for him to just touch me and push me over. And everyone would have thought that I commit suicide and Scientology would have been rid of their worst. And at that point, only enemy.

[00:24:05]

Right. Right now. I don't even have I mean, I've heard this story that I've read your book, I've read Tony's book. It's still I mean, I'm just still in just kind of utter shock, like, I mean, it's it's if something if something had changed, right. You listen to these stories for 15 years, they're abusing her.

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They're destroying her life.

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They're doing everything that fair game says to do their attempted murder on several occasions here. If something if we were just talking about history.

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There would be some sort of well, at least, but we can't even say that. That's absolutely right.

[00:24:50]

This is history that is being repeated today, repeated over and over today and every other day.

[00:25:00]

And I sit here and I listen to pull that and it's like I have these lumps in my throat of right. I can't actually think of what the appropriate thing is. Right. Right.

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And and, you know, I that's why I started out this same poll that I have so much respect for you.

[00:25:19]

It's not funny.

[00:25:20]

It's like what you survived and how you came through this and that you persisted and persevered is absolutely astonishing. And I take strength from knowing your story to keep going no matter what.

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And I think a lot of other people do, too. And, you know, we're not even to the end of it yet.

[00:25:47]

Yeah, we have not been indicted and facing criminal charges with 15 years in prison. Yes.

[00:25:56]

And losing everything, trusting people to come into your home, to think that you have a best friend, only to find out that he's a plant.

[00:26:04]

You know, it's just anyway and I just want to remind you, it still happening today.

[00:26:10]

Well, I had this over my head for eight months, and it was it was just horrendous. And in the end, we were able to get a little bit of information against them to at least be able to show the prosecutor that these were not necessarily nice people. Yeah, and that helped the government then began. They didn't really they didn't want to lose the case and they weren't sure anymore. So at that point, they made an offer that they would drop the case.

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They didn't drop the case. That's right. For a year, I had it all over my head that at any moment I could just be arrested. Right. And but I'm going to fast forward four years had this over my head. And by the way, during this time and afterwards, they kept suing me. They can sue me to somebody, somebody else's book. They said yes. They said I'd helped him. I didn't at all, even if you did.

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But even if you did, I know they just kept they kept suing me and suing me. And I had ended up with 19 lawsuits. And I had to fight every one of them. And they were all over the world.

[00:27:17]

So that was true and managed and pay for depressing. Yeah. And they paid for it.

[00:27:23]

It was so depressing the whole week. To this day, I can't walk into a lawyer's office without having an anxiety attack. Right.

[00:27:31]

But anyway, so four years later, the FBI seized Scientology's papers and that with something called Snow White when that was. Do you want to talk about how. Yeah. So what? So what started this, Mike?

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What started the F? Because it wasn't Paulet. It was something completely unrelated to Paulett. Right.

[00:27:50]

Right.

[00:27:51]

It began with a Scientology, had sent spies into government agencies and they around the 70s.

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Right. Right. In the 70s, the IRS, the FBI, the Department of Justice, all I mean, dozens and dozens of government agencies. And they were stealing documents and planting documents and gathering intelligence information and smearing people, et cetera, et cetera.

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And eventually one of them got caught with a fake I.D. and that guy named Michael Meisner was at first hidden literally.

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He was disappeared from the face of the earth, was being held in safe houses and by Scientology, by Scientology to keep him out of the hands of the FBI because after they arrested him, they let him go before they conducted further questioning and he disappeared. And then there was an arrest warrant out for him.

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Long story short, ultimately, Michael Meisner said, I want to turn myself in. I can't take this. And they then kidnapped him and stuck a tennis ball in his mouth. Who kidnapped him? The Guardian's Office, the Scientologists. OK, let's talk about hold on.

[00:29:11]

At this time, the fair game department who executed these horrific crimes and acts against people were called the Guardian's Office. And this is a Scientology department dedicated to destroying people. And the head of that department at the time was L. Ron Hubbard wife, Mary Sue Hubbard. So and these people who did these things, like Michael, was just called a guardian, right? These were people who were called guardians, so that they seem like they're the defending. Truth in honor of this amazing organization, Scientology.

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Boy, that's right out of of the guardian of PR. Yeah, right.

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So let's just let the people know what the Guardian's offices and and at the time it was just called the geo. Right. That's what people called it, the geo. And they these were people who were whatever. Go ahead.

[00:30:04]

Right. So anyway, Michael Misner eventually went, you know, I'm not doing this anymore. Michael Meisner was kidnapped. He was being held against his will. He eventually sort of acted like everything. He had changed his mind and all was OK until he had an opportunity to escape and he ran away. He managed to escape and he went straight to the FBI. That gave the FBI enough direct evidence of what they were looking for, that they got a warrant and that weren't allowed them to go into the Scientology buildings in Los Angeles and Washington, D.C. and take all the files of the Guardian's office.

[00:30:48]

And this is what Paulet is alluding to, that that raid on Scientology in 1977 disclosed an enormous amount of information that had otherwise been secret.

[00:31:08]

Hey, this is Jason McIntyre, join me every weekday morning on my podcast, Straight Fire with Jason McIntyre. This isn't your typical sports pot pushing the same tired narratives down your throat every day. Straight fire gives you a level of authenticity you just don't get. In sports media today, honest opinions on all the biggest sports headlines, accurate stats to help you win big at the sports book and direct conversations with all the best guests. Look, I know what sports fans want.

[00:31:35]

You want the fluff, the lists, the hot takes, but I give you what you need. I can't say that I'm going to be right all the time, but unlike the rest of these shock jocks, I'm always real. Let me tell you something. Patrick Mahomes is not the Michael Jordan of football, but he is the Steph Curry. And you know what else? Johnny's pulling a Kevin Durant and leaving the small market bucks to build a super team would be great for the NBA.

[00:31:58]

These are just the facts. Folks, do yourself a favor and listen to Street Fire with Jason McIntyre on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts and I heart radio, we bring you the best podcast from the biggest names.

[00:32:14]

Ron Burgundy. Jack Chelsea Handler. Yup. Love him, too. And the one thing these shows have in common, they all started with an idea and now we want yours. We're looking to you for the next great podcast. Do you have an idea for a podcast? Let's hear it. Any genre, any topic. We want your voice. Pitch us your show for a chance to share it with fellow podcast fans across the globe and become a part of the I Heart radio podcast family.

[00:32:42]

Simply go to next great podcast Dotcom to get the details and submit your pitch. In partnership with the creative platform Tongo I Heart Radio will select up to 10 semifinalists and give them a thousand dollars to produce a pilot episode. Then listeners will vote on their favorite to decide the next great podcast. The winning show will be made by our best in class production team and shared with listeners all around the world. Enter today at next. Great podcast, Dotcom.

[00:33:11]

That's next. Great podcast, Dotcom. Why shouldn't the next great podcast come from you? Now, in these documents that were seized, Scientology and the Guardian's Office had everything because, you know, we keep saying this well, we'll just keep saying it so that the authorities and government agencies understand that everything in Scientology is put in writing that as a policy.

[00:33:42]

And thank God everything was put in writing the operation to destroy people, to infiltrate government agencies.

[00:33:50]

And it was the largest. They uncovered that Scientology is responsible for the largest infiltration of government in history.

[00:33:58]

And in these things like they were what was so they called them like Operation Freak out, Operation Snow White, Operation Tuko, less operation. What was all of Paulette's operations?

[00:34:12]

The first bomb threat was called Operation Dynamite. But then they found something, a series of papers called Operation Freak out. Mm hmm. What had happened was that when they had failed to get me arrested. Or put into a mental institution, those were the two things they were trying to do, they put together something called Operation Freak out, very similar to Operation Dynamite. This time they would have somebody posing as me going around threatening to bomb places, to send letters to people like Henry Kissinger, threatening letters in the hopes that I would be arrested.

[00:34:59]

And that's one of the things that they found, including documents that admitted that they had done Operation Dynamite, that they had sent the bomb threats.

[00:35:12]

So it was only because of this, because of the raid and it was for years that all I wanted was to prove my innocence, because most people, I think at that point probably thought that I was the one that sent the bomb threats, not the other way around, because Scientology still had a pretty good reputation. Right. Until this this hurt them very badly. It was all over the world. And I didn't know about the what they had found in the raid.

[00:35:41]

I was coming back from Europe and they used to give out free newspapers on the planes. And I picked up The Washington Post and there was a huge story. Scientology seized paper indicate Ryder was framed and I just started to cry. I was so happy when I came home. The Scientologist sued me for The Washington Post.

[00:36:05]

Are you kidding?

[00:36:06]

Well, Paula, no, I didn't even know about it anyway. Wow.

[00:36:12]

Now, so. So so did it end there, Paula?

[00:36:16]

No, no. Because I didn't quit if I had quit. But the problem is that nobody else was standing up and speaking out against them. And people don't understand that before the Internet, it was very difficult to know what was going on. Right. And somebody needed to know. And because I had written this book and because I was very open about trying to help people who were having problems, I was constantly hearing from reporters who were doing stories and needed background and from lawyers who were handling lawsuits.

[00:36:53]

Their clients were being sued and they needed information. So I became the Internet right there before it became even more important as far as Scientology was concerned, to get rid of me and to shut me up. And that was the period in which there were a lot of horrible anonymous smear letters sent about me. Besides the first one that I already discussed to my adoptive parents, to the boss of the man that I had planned to marry, the there were there was constant things going on all the time.

[00:37:28]

I used to call it the harassment of the week. It was always something that they were trying to do. And I really kind of wanted I wanted to have a normal life. I wanted to get married. I wanted but nobody else was crazy enough, I guess, to, you know, sort of like you and Mike and Tony Ortego.

[00:37:49]

We're the ones that are, you know, you're the ones that are really speaking out. And I couldn't just abandon all these people and let Scientology continue to destroy their what's right.

[00:38:00]

And it's funny because like I mentioned before, you guys, it would be all like at least.

[00:38:07]

But now they continue to put up these hate websites. Now they continue to show up to court appearances. And in looking like ministers and acting like ministers and writing smear letters to advertisers, you would just think and and we keep saying this, it won't ever change because Scientology has a policy about policy never changing.

[00:38:33]

Ultimately, the Guardian's office as a result of that were 11 Scientologists from the Guardian's office, including Mary Sue Hubbard, were arrested, right, Mike, and pled guilty ultimately to having conducted this campaign of infiltration and smearing people, et cetera, et cetera. But honestly, even though that was, you know, in the in the history of Scientology, that's probably the worst thing that has ever happened.

[00:39:06]

But it wasn't right. You scratch the surface, Leah. Oh, of course. What what even even all of that stuff that they found the prosecution was of like so narrow when the issue is so broad and so all pervasive and, you know, Scientology since 1977 or since actually nineteen eighty about has sort of tried to push all that into the background, said, oh, that was just a few rogue people.

[00:39:43]

Well, the rogue people were L. Ron Hubbard wife operating on the policies that he wrote. Those rogue people who we have since gotten rid of and the way they got rid of them was to replace the Guardian's office with. The Office of Special Affairs, but nothing else changed, right? It was it was like the we got rid of Fair Game by saying we don't use the term anymore because it creates bad public relations, but we're not changing what we do.

[00:40:12]

Right. We're still do it.

[00:40:13]

And now we're going to rebrand the Guardian's office to be called now Oza, which is Office of Special Affairs, which now carries out these activities, a fair game today. And yes, you were at one point the head of this department, Mike, and you did your fair time.

[00:40:31]

Yes, exactly. But but they say the same line.

[00:40:34]

I mean, when you all went on CNN saying that you were you know, you were beaten, you beaten people under the direction of David Miscavige and L. Ron Hubbard policies.

[00:40:44]

They're still saying that, no, these people were expelled. These were the bad eggs of Scientology.

[00:40:50]

They the same routine is going on. Lea is a slut. She just wants to make money. This one's an asshole. That one's a prostitute. That one's a wife beater. That one's a child molester.

[00:41:02]

They're still doing the same thing, the same activities of destroying people, still stalking people, still lying. Like Paulette said, the things that they've done, the crimes that they have hidden, they are complicit. They are the real criminals. And whatever they accuse people of is what they've done. If the authorities wants to solve these crimes, just listen to what they say.

[00:41:28]

And then you go, OK? Exactly, and and you know, something else I wanted to comment on was, you know, Paulet was saying, well, these law enforcement and the grand jury and whatever, they have to kind of weigh up and go, well, who do we believe? Do we believe this woman who we're not really sure about? Oh, do we believe these wonderful people over here in the clerical collars and their crosses and and.

[00:41:57]

On top of that, there is also this concept that people are generally good people do not believe that someone will just out and out lie, lie.

[00:42:11]

It's very hard to persuade someone that you see those people over there, what they're saying about me, they just made it up. They just invented this out of absolute whole cloth. They are trying to frame me. And in in most people's minds, they go, oh, is a crazy person there. There's a crazy person. And yet the the story of Paulette Cooper is the absolute proof of that.

[00:42:40]

But the problem is also most people believe that when someone gets caught doing that sort of stuff, they don't do it anymore. Like they learn the lesson. They're not going to they're not going to come in and try this same routine again.

[00:42:55]

They got caught. They got sent to prison for why would they be doing that all over again?

[00:43:00]

Because it's not really good, because it's the policy and they are going to keep doing it for ever.

[00:43:07]

It is not going to change. So when we see them coming out and saying, Leah Remini is this or Mike Rinder is a wife beater or whoever the current, you know, enemy du jour is, you can be sure that what they are saying is just as valid as what they said about Paula Cooper threatening them with a fake bomb threat.

[00:43:32]

It will make it up. We'll just invent it will and will say it. And a lot of people just going to buy it because they don't believe anybody lies like that, right?

[00:43:43]

Right. A series of things happened, including a lawyer starting a class action suit and all these people who had been afraid to talk, many of them, when they smelled money, were now ready to come out publicly. So once I saw that there were other people who could help those being hurt by Scientology and Scientology was hurting people. I mean, to me, of course, they they they destroyed my life for so many years, but they destroyed so many people's lives in other ways, bankrupting them, separating them from their family, practicing their game.

[00:44:23]

If they complained that I couldn't leave until somebody else was taking over and this lawyer came in and he took over, at which point I was finally able to live a normal life. And as a as a happy postscript to my life was that somebody, a wonderful man that I had met before all this happened, I bumped into again at a party of the lawyer who had handled the end, the settlement with Scientology. So something good came out of it.

[00:44:58]

And I met this man and he's absolutely wonderful. And we've had thirty two glorious years together. Right, darling?

[00:45:06]

Yes. He better just say yes. And I love my shoes, Joe, because he learned to say yes, dear, we're not perfect.

[00:45:14]

Well trained Paulet well trained. When we first got married, his best friend said, look what a happy time.

[00:45:21]

Anything she wants, she's going to get married anyway. So just say Yes dear. Is there.

[00:45:25]

Right. But, Paula, you still continue as you are today, as you have for us on the aftermath.

[00:45:33]

And you wrote a book with Tony Ortega. So you continue to speak out, continue to do the work.

[00:45:39]

Why is that? Because unfortunately, fair game is still in operation, if they had cleaned up their act, as they said that they would actually settled, then I would not say a word. But unfortunately, people are still being hurt and they are being harassed if they try to speak out. So I don't make a life out of it anymore like I used to. Right. But I do occasionally speak out against them when I see that something very bad is happening.

[00:46:12]

Right.

[00:46:13]

And we thank you and appreciate that. Well, I mean, what are your thoughts about it? Because you see it every day. I'm sure you see the websites, the hate sites that they put up on people, the lawsuits, the dogs.

[00:46:24]

Is it shocking to you, Paula, that they would continue this same shit that I am?

[00:46:30]

I am shocked that I continue to be shocked. Right.

[00:46:34]

I don't know why I keep expecting something different to happen. The same, you know, than I've even seen a few cases since then where they say, oh, somebody sent them bomb threats. And I say to myself, oh, sure, yes.

[00:46:49]

And going after people's dogs, you know, I mean, this is something that way back next to my life, I was most afraid for my dog's life because in those days then and now, I keep reading somebody. The Scientology's dog died.

[00:47:04]

You know, Pull-Out, mysteriously, we talk about that. It's so crazy because, you know, some of the victims, their dogs just mysteriously died. And, you know, you bring that up to a detective and they're like, OK, I'm like, no, no, no. You understand this. They have a history of doing this. This goes back to the 70s. It's they have a history of doing. And like Mike said, and like you said, you know, they just look at you like they're crazy.

[00:47:29]

Why would a Church of Scientology be killing your daughter?

[00:47:32]

I mean, it sounds so nuts that the judge in that government case is dog mysteriously died. So we're talking now back early in the 70s. Oh, yes. They use the same techniques. People are still being smeared. Yes, it's really it's very sad because they hurt themselves. They don't realize it.

[00:47:53]

Well, yeah, but like I said, you know, Scientology is a policy of policy not changing.

[00:47:59]

And so I just hope that one day that, you know, which is why we're doing this podcast pullet as opposed to doing something else that we just wanted to dedicate something to talking just about Fair Game, because it just seems like it's just not enough that people just don't understand that this goes on every day, as it has been for decades since the policy was written.

[00:48:28]

And behavior for a church is absolutely abhorrent. Yes, agreed. So hopefully with our continued discussion and exposing what they're doing, what they have done, what they're doing presently, we can bring an end to this like this year, because I, too, would like to move on.

[00:48:51]

I know the feeling. Believe, yes.

[00:48:53]

After 50 years, there's other very bad things in the world, too, that deserve our attention. Agreed.

[00:49:00]

Agreed. Well, thank you, Paulette. I cannot thank you enough. And I thank you for your your courage.

[00:49:06]

And we're just lucky to have someone like you in the world who was willing to fight for this long. And you persevered and thank you.

[00:49:16]

Well, thank you for all that, you and Mike, and a plug for Tony Ortega, of course, daily blog. What a difference that makes that every day is something bad that Scientology does he exposes of greed. And I believe between the three of you, I'm not needed anymore. And that's all.

[00:49:36]

That's not true. I don't think you're on vacation. My husband just laughed.

[00:49:43]

What do that.

[00:49:44]

Yeah, he does. Yes, dear. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:49:49]

Thank you so much. Yes. Thank you. And God bless you guys.

[00:50:01]

Hi, I'm Ali Wentworth. You know, I'm not a truth sayer, a therapist or an advice columnist, I'm not even particularly sage, but I do know a thing or two about a thing or two. And I've lived those things or two or three and consequently fallen on my face and occasionally been enlightened. So join me for Go Ask Ali for this season. I'll probe all the questions about growing a teenager in a pandemic. Go ask Ali premieres Thursday, August 20th, with all new episodes releasing every other Thursday.

[00:50:27]

Listen to Ghost Gawley on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:50:33]

And I heart radio, we bring you the best podcasts from the Ron Burgundy show to the Breakfast Club to stuff you should know really all of today's biggest names. But each of these shows started with an idea and now we want yours. We're looking to you for the next great podcast. Simply go to next great podcast, Dotcom, to get the details and submit your pitch will select up to 10 semifinalists and give them a thousand dollars to produce a pilot.

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