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[00:00:00]

How did the world's greatest entrepreneurs find their way to such prominent positions of success? I'm Jeff Rosenthal and in Out of the Hustle, my podcast from my Heart Radio.

[00:00:10]

I sit down to chat with the cultural innovators and magnet Shaping Our Future from the co-founder of the Black Lives Matter movement to the former CEO of Twitter. Join us each week as we discuss the insights and critical advice that shaped all of their lives. Listen to the Art of the Hustle on the radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:00:30]

Hey, I'm Mr. Toy, host of Get Down Cape Town, a new podcast from Iowa Radio. As a founder and chef of several New York City restaurants, I believe that food is the ultimate gateway into a culture. As a proud ambassador of Korean food. I'm excited to share my culture with you. Tune in to the unfiltered conversations with trailblazers like Roy Choi of the Great Food Truck Movement, Korean Skincare with Charlotte Cho and pioneering rap Adlard Dumbfoundead. Listen to get down in Cape Town of the Heart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast.

[00:01:06]

All right, well, here we are, another episode of Scientology. Mike, you notice that I'm talking a little bit more commer voice.

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Well, people, Leah, I think that they like your regular voice.

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I saw a ton of comments about we love Leah and we love her passion and we love to hear her. You were the one that brought up I sound crazy or whatever it was that you said. Yeah. And I brought up I sound slow.

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And then there's a whole bunch of people saying, no, you talk to us like you can't win. I can't win.

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Today, we're going to talk about really the meat and and substance of what is fair game and a little bit about the history, because I don't think people have a clue how extensive and how long these practices have been going on in Scientology.

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I agree. I just think it's like it's become a couple of words and a sentence or two that people think, oh, yeah, we know. Fair game. Yeah, they attack enemies. Right.

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When you look back at the history of Scientology all the way back to the early 50s, when Hubbard first started declaring people as enemies and his first enemies were the psychiatrists and medical doctors, because they said that his great new discoveries were not, in fact, great new discoveries, but quackery.

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And that offended him. No end.

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We see history, that is it's almost too difficult to to comprehend that what is portrayed as a religious organization has conducted.

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Very deliberate campaigns to destroy people for decades and infiltrate organizations, and I don't mean they have just been doing little smear tactics on the Internet like they do on you and me currently.

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I mean, real concerted campaigns to infiltrate government agencies, to destroy people to this.

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We've heard and seen the story of Paulette Cooper, but Paulette Cooper is just one one microcosm of this subject.

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You know, we go around and look at the prosecution of the sign, the 11 senior Scientologists from the Guardian's Office, which was the the name previous name for the Office of Special Affairs and the Guardian's office, was that part of Scientology organization that L. Ron Hubbard said was to defend Scientology against outside attacks. Right.

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The the prosecution of those 11 officials, including L. Ron Hubbard, wife, Mary Sue, and their subsequent going to jail after pleading guilty.

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And this is in 1977, the government, the FBI, they conducted a raid right on Scientology. And this was the results. They uncovered all of Scientology's Guardian's office. Now, Oza, they they found all these documents that they were infiltrating government agencies.

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They had broken the law to a point where, like you're saying, that resulted in 11 Scientologists going to prison.

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Correct, yeah, and let me let me just say, Leah, the back story to why that raid even occurred is a fascinating one, and that the documents that were obtained by the U.S. government, the FBI, when they did those raids in Los Angeles and Washington, D.C., are by no means all the documents that the Guardian's office had, a system called the red box, which was the box that items that were considered to be.

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Secret or problematic or could cause difficulties would be put into this box immediately and every day that box was to be shredded.

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So there was huge amounts of material that was never gotten by the government.

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What was gotten was so incriminating.

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It is astonishing.

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And I think that we got to make the point, too, that these things that were uncovered in that raid and then came out in this prosecution are from the 70s, 60s and 70s, primarily the 70s. But that doesn't mean that this stuff has stopped. Right, because they were all based on Hubbard's directives and policies on how you go about dealing with enemies.

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And none of those things have changed since.

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Right. Right. The practice of how you deal with an enemy has not changed. So let me just go back and explain a little bit.

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What had happened was the Hubbard had written this this famous or infamous series of things called Snow White, the Snow White program and the Snow White program was Hubbards effort to deal with governmental, quote, attacks on Scientology.

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Now, when you say attacks like you don't mean that the act the government was actually attacking the government was doing their job by looking into Scientology, abusive and criminal behavior or not even looking into it.

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They just had, quote, false information, unquote.

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But but they had information on Scientology. They obviously had information that was correct and it wasn't false.

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I understand you're speaking for Scientology and being, you know, tongue in cheek, but I just don't want people to misunderstand that there was nothing that the government was doing that was wrong. They were actually doing their job. And for that, Scientology said, you are fair game to us and we will try to destroy you and get those documents and destroy them.

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Absolutely correct. The Guardian's office had infiltrated spies into the United States government, into the IRS, the Department of Justice, into senators offices, the Better Business Bureau, the American Psychiatric Association, the American Medical Association, I mean, the office of of the Postal Inspector. I mean, it was like all over the place.

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And the process of planting Scientologists and infiltrating these organizations is because these government agencies is to what what's what's the purpose of it like while the stated purpose was to locate all of the information that these government agencies had on and on Scientology, and therefore, by locating it, be able to quote unquote, correct it.

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But actually what was happening was they were stealing it.

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They were removing they were removing the documents from the files so that the information that had been transmitted to the IRS about Scientology financial crimes would suddenly vanish.

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Right. OK, here's what happened. Leah, want two of the people who were the infiltrators in the IRS got caught.

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They got caught with their false identities and they were supposed to then report to be interrogated by whoever it was that was going to interrogate them. And one of them, a guy by the name of Michael Meisner, The Guardian's Office. This what happened in Washington, D.C. at the headquarters of the IRS.

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And by the way, Scientology had bugged the conference rooms of the IRS so that they were listening in to the conferences that were being held about what were they going to do about Scientology so that they would know the strategy that the IRS was employing in the legal cases so that they could then circumvent the strategies that the IRS was using.

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This is on frickin real Mike. Yeah, it is unreal. This is like this is like, you know, Jason Bourne stories.

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Yeah. Yeah. But for real. Yeah. This is OK. So Michael Meisner was he gets caught, he gets caught.

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And instead of showing up for his interrogation and reporting in for the arrest warrant, he gets flown to Los Angeles so they can figure out what are they going to do and what story are they going to come up with.

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You know, I have mentioned a few times that the way that Scientology deals with things is corral everything immediately and then figure out what the story is going to be and how are we going to deal with this and how we're going to tell this is, you know, spread the lies.

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And so wait. So instead of going to where he was supposed to go, where you supposed to be interviewed, not interrogated?

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Interviewed by what? The FBI. OK, yeah. Scientology flies him to Los Angeles. Right. To drill him. To train him on what he's going to say. That's a lie to correct Scientology. OK, what happens from there? There is an arrest warrant that is issued for him because he doesn't show up. At this point, this goes on for some weeks, he is being hidden in Los Angeles in safe houses by Scientology, by Scientology.

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So the authorities can't get to him. Exactly. Nobody knows where he is. So, yeah, they can't get the evidence from him.

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But if they can't talk to him. Right. This is so. Yeah. So Meisner then says, look, I don't want to be a fugitive with an arrest warrant on my head.

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I want to turn myself in. I want to go tell them. And they've concocted this whole or they were in the process of concocting a whole story about what it was that had happened and why he was doing what he was doing and blah, blah, blah. And he said, I just want to go turn myself in.

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The Guardian's office, officials for Mary Sue Hubbard on down said, no, you are not turning yourself in.

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And they kidnap the guy.

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Scientology, truly that the Guardian's office kidnapped their own guy. They tied him up, handcuffed him, put a tennis ball in his mouth and put him in the back of a car blindfolded and drove him to another secret location where he didn't even know where he was and kept him there out of the hands of the government. He then played ultimately sort of got smart and played nice with the people who were watching him saying he was all cooperative and he wouldn't do anything bad and blah, blah, blah, they let down their guard and he jumped the fence and made his way to the FBI and spilled his guts and told that truth.

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That's exactly right. He spilled it.

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He laid out everything that had happened. That is how the FBI was able to go in and do the raid from what Michael Meisner Meissner did.

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Yeah, exactly.

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I his his testimony was what allowed the FBI to then go get a search warrant from a federal judge in Los Angeles and D.C. and go in and do this raid. And that raid then resulted in all of these documents coming out and the prosecution of those 11 people and those documents.

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And this amazing in the in the course of the prosecution of those people from the Guardian's office, Mary Sue Hubbard and company, there was a stipulation of evidence that the defendants, Mary Sue Hubbard and Co., agreed to with the U.S. attorney's office.

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And it lays out all of the things that they agreed that they had been engaged in.

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And it is like infiltrating the BBB, doing, you know, all of the things that I laid out.

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And then there is a a fascinating document. When the judge was supposed to be sentencing them, the United States attorneys submitted what is called a sentencing memorandum to the court, saying here is how you should treat these people.

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And it lays out in enormous detail the fact that Scientology, based on the teachings of L. Ron Hubbard, believes itself to be above the law, that these people believed that they could lie, cheat Bergel, do anything that they wanted in order to justify achieving the goals and aims of Scientology and what they have been told to do by L. Ron Hubbard. They couldn't charge L. Ron Hubbard.

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He was an unindicted co-conspirators in that case because Mary Sue Hubbard fell on her sword and so did the other Guardian's Office people and said he knew nothing about anything that they were doing.

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Right. Well, of course, that wasn't true. He had directed it. All right.

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It'll be as as David Miscavige is doing today. Correct. Under the guise that yes. Under under the same policies of Fair Game that were written in 1955 that are still active today, correct? Right.

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And we see examples of this exact same sort of stuff happening all over the place.

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Look, since since that prosecution and one would imagine that when 11 senior officials of a quote unquote, church are convicted of or plead guilty actually to having infiltrated government agencies and burgled them.

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And all of this information comes out that that that would be enough to cause them to stop.

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Not so I just became a little bit clever about how they went about doing it, and probably the biggest thing that changed subsequent to that was instead of having Scientologists carrying out the dirty tricks, the the infiltration, etc, etc., it was all done with the cutout of lawyers, lawyers hiring private investigators who then hire someone else to go do the dirty work.

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Right.

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And before we move on, Mike, I just want to ask, so whatever happened to Michael? He is living life and has never spoken. He really went off and and I think Tony Ortega tracked him down at one point. Yeah, he living somewhere in New England and working at a nuclear power station. And he wouldn't talk.

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I think he just this this whole part of his life was such a such a catastrophe and disaster. He never wants to revisit it.

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I love to talk to him. And especially because he did so much good. I mean, but I would I would assume him seeing that Scientology, like you said, you would think that when this happened, that would be the end of fair game and these activities.

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But instead, the Guardian's Office of Scientology just became Oza, which stands for Office of Special Affairs.

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And like Mike said, the policy will never change. And so the activities that demand these activities will not change. They have just been altered. But, you know, he's certainly somebody to be admired and thanked from from our side for having the balls to do what he did, right? Absolutely right.

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The other thing is, Mike, where can we see this story? Has his story ever been written? Have you written about this on your blog or. The story of Michael Meisner and the history of well, Tony, I think Tony Ortega is probably covered more than anybody, but OK, I don't know that I mean, in the book about Paulette Cooper is a lot of this information, OK?

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But I don't think anybody has ever directly talked about the history of Fair Game and how this all sort of rolled out.

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Yeah, I'm glad you did. I'm glad you I didn't know this. Right.

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So it's really it's really mind boggling that it continues to happen. And like you said, Mike, when they uncovered those documents, they had hundreds, if not thousands of illegal operations. And that's what they call them, Operation Freak out for the mayor of Clearwater.

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It was what was talian fog and Tucker less. Right.

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And so these were the operations and they're written out. And you could certainly Google this.

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You could find these, you could Scientology dirty tricks, Scientology Fair Game, Operation Freak out will lead you to the many, many operations of Scientology's Guardian's office are now Oza and what they're doing today. And we should actually get into Mike. So starting with when people go, well, it's not happening today. It's illegal. I mean, it is still happening. You don't have to go far. Certainly could start with us.

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But please do look up these operations guys, because I just want you to see it for yourself.

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It's so important that that you have the information that you're armed with the information.

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And it's not just us saying it to you.

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We want you to be well-educated in the area of Scientology to avoid it for yourself and to if you're a judge or you're in law enforcement.

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It's so important that you understand the tactics that Scientology and Scientologists alike are willing to take to discredit or silence anyone who is exposing them.

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Right. And Leah, I will put this like a there is a document that someone compiled, I didn't even know who it is that this out a lot of these operations and who they were against, et cetera, et cetera. Now, put that on the Fed game podcast, dotcom website, OK? When this episode airs so that people can see it and along with the other documents, you know, the that we've talked about the stipulation of evidence and the the sentencing memorandum, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:20:58]

OK, great. What if you could learn from one of the world's most inspiring women now you can. Introducing Senecas 100 women to hear a new podcast brought to you by Seneca Women and I Heart Radio. I'm Kim Azorella. In celebration of the 100th anniversary of American women getting the vote, we're bringing you the voices of a hundred groundbreaking in history, making women listen to Senecas 100 women to hear on the radio app Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:21:35]

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[00:22:41]

So I think that this this story that I'm about to recount is illustrative of what goes on today, like all the way to right now the airing of this podcast, although like the Michael Meisner's story, it has a sort of an earlier beginning. Right. And it has been going on for 10 years or more. Well, let me just stop. OK, go ahead.

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After I had done the interviews in the the Tampa Bay Times, what was then called the St. Petersburg Times.

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Now, Mike, was this the first interview that you had done when you left Scientology, the Sea Organization, as an employee?

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Yes, it was. Leah and I did an interview with the St. Pete Times. Now The Tampa Bay Times. Correct.

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And it was for the very extensive series that truth rundown.

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Yeah. There you go. The truth rundown. See, I'm getting old, Leah, now.

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We all are. But Mike, here's the thing. I have to ask you a question. You cannot find that too easily. Why is that?

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Because like most other media, The Tampa Bay Times has put stuff that is archival into where they keep it is you have to have a subscription, right?

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Why not so available so people can see it?

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I mean, it's just so stupid anyway that can you find trying to make money to stay alive. Hey, Mike, so can you put this do you have those stories somewhere on your blog?

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And we people find that I will endeavor to get those links in any event. Yeah, I did a series of interviews and that there is a back story to that to which is originally I had not wanted to participate in those interviews.

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They were interviewing Marty Rathbun and he and some other people and the reporters at the time, Tom Tobin and Joe Childs, contacted me and said they'd like me to confirm information that Marty Rathbun had given them.

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And and Marty Rathbun was a former senior executive of Scientology as well. Yes. He was one of your closest friends? He was, yes.

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And he had been involved in a lot of the same things.

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I had been involved in dealing with external matters for Scientology.

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And he was also abused and beaten. You got it. Great. I had originally not agreed to to be on the record, but they they sort of begged me saying we don't have anybody else that that can confirm some of this information that Marty Rathbun is telling us, because you and he and David Miscavige were the only people there.

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Right. So you and I agreed. So ultimately, I agreed after the the private investigators who were living across the street from me reported in to David Miscavige that I had met with these people who flew to Denver to see me from the Tampa Bay Times.

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And then Miscavige dispatched Monique Yingling, the lawyer, his personal lawyer, another lawyer, Tom Davis, and two other people to Denver to try and stop me from talking to the Tampa Bay Times. And when that happened, I said, OK, I'm now going to talk, you can't come and try and threaten me. They talk like Monique Yingling was saying. Do you ever want to speak to your children again? You know, you don't want to go to war with Scientology, blah, blah, blah, blah.

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And I was like, so Monique is the mouthpiece for Scientology and Monique is threatening you that you're not going to see your children who are employees in the Sea Org of Scientology, if you speak correct.

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Also spent money on getting a house across the street from you and hired parties just to watch you.

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Correct.

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In fact, Leah, those two private investigators have been paid in excess of ten million dollars by Scientology to follow Pat Broca, who was a former Scientology official for ten years before they were put on to me.

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Wow.

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OK, so I know this this story is almost as crazy as the the Michael Meisner's story in some respects. The next thing that happens, Leah, is the article comes out and then Joe Childs from the Tampa Bay St. Pete Times at the time calls me and says, Mike.

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I have a very unpleasant question to ask you, and I know what the answer is, but I have to ask you, I just got off the phone with Monique Yingling, who informed me that you are such a horrendous person that. When your son was diagnosed with aggressive skin cancer, you didn't even want to know about it.

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Do you, Mike, know that your son Benjamin has aggressive skin cancer? And I said, Joe, I had no idea.

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He said Monique Yingling told me this and told me that you refused to even talk to her about your son or see him or see your ex-wife who had flown to Denver in order to inform you of this.

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So, Mike, before we go any further, the whole purpose of this is so that they throw away your story and don't report it, because we're telling you this guy is so disgusting that he didn't even want to see his son, who has a gross of skin cancer.

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Had you known that your son had skin cancer at this point?

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No, of course not, and they didn't even mention that Monique Yingling never mentioned that supposedly Kathy was in Denver.

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I have seen my ex-wife, another another Scientology employee, a Sea Org member, in fact. Yeah. And and she supposedly flew all the way to Denver to see me, but then never called me.

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Good.

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So my when they all when they all met with you to try to silence you in the beginning that they ever mentioned it, then no, there is no mention of this.

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So now they're pretending. Well, that didn't work there. Like now let's pretend that we all concerned Scientology Sea Org members only flew out to Denver, not to harass Mike, not to silence him.

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Let's go with a story that we were alerting him to, the fact that his son has aggressive skin cancer. Correct. But that was a lie. That was a total lie. So your story gets worse. Say, oh, geez. So after getting off the phone with Joe. Yeah. I go, OK, I need to go and see Benjamin. My God, this is alarming.

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So yeah. Yeah, so. Marty Rathbun and I, who happened to be with me at the time, go to the Fort Harrison Hotel in Clearwater and approached the front door, and I say to the security guards and the private investigator who's standing there, I would like to see my son, Benjamin, whom I have been informed that he has cancer and I am here to see him. They tell me to leave the property, get off their property, and they will call the police and they call the police, they issue a trespass warning on me.

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Six police, I thought, is my duty. They want you to see your son, Ben. Well, apparently not, didn't Ben want to see his father? Apparently not. Why is that? Because he was being surrounded by four people from Oza who were making sure that he didn't walk out the door.

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Two days later, I was taking Christy, now my wife to the doctor's and I was sitting in the parking lot of a doctor's office in Clearwater, Florida. And this is a very secluded location, by the way, it's like way you can't see it from the road at all.

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And I'm standing in the parking lot talking to John Sweeney, a reporter from the BBC who was doing a show on the Panorama program about Scientology, actually was his second show because I had agreed to speak to him after having represented Scientology in his first show. I was now talking to him about what really was going on and what had happened in trying to prevent him from doing that first show.

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In fact, trying to drive him crazy, literally.

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Right. And that's what you were doing as part of Oza when you were Iraq, when you were in the CIA. Now, interesting, Ken, this is an amazing show, by the way. Can people see this? Because I thought this was fantastic.

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Oh, yeah, you can absolutely see it. And I will put I have links on my blog. I'll put them on the right, the Fair Game podcast. Great, great, great, great.

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OK, so you're in the parking lot talking to John Sweeney, your former enemy. Right.

[00:32:39]

And former recipient of your fair gaming to write him. Right.

[00:32:45]

OK, you're on the phone with him when Richman's which by the way, I just got to tell you, John Sweeney and his producer, Sarah Marshall, have become very good personal friends of mine.

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Yes, I know John flew from England to come to my wedding. Oh, so you're on the phone with Sweeney and I say at a doctor's appointment for your wife. Right.

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Suddenly I see three cars pull into the parking lot. And who is it? Out of the cars comes my ex-wife. How long have you been divorced at this point, Mike? Well, actually, I had not yet been divorced and the reason I had not yet been divorced is those Scientology had filed the divorce papers on behalf of Kathy to divorce me the instant I left. They hung on to the divorce case. Because they were getting regular, I had to provide regular updates about my financial status.

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Where was I making money from? What was I doing? Who was I in contact with?

[00:33:57]

And they were using this as intelligence gathering. Yes. Until finally the five year time limit ran out and the judge said, OK, I've had enough of this.

[00:34:08]

OK, so this is four years after you guys separated and you hadn't seen or talked to her since. Right. Yeah. Yeah. OK. Actually, three lya from 2007, June to now, it's April 2010, so she never had contacted you about your son and your daughter who were in the sea or your children who were in the Sea Org never contacted you once you left Scientology and spoke out?

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Not once. And you have a message to them on your blog and there's been no contact. Correct. And not by you. Mike, this is because of the policy of disconnection and fair game. They believe because they were raised by Scientology, not you and Kathy, that they cannot talk to you because you're an enemy to mankind.

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Correct? Got it. Yes. So out of these three cars, pot to piss. My ex-wife Kathy, my daughter Taryn, my brother from Australia, so you haven't heard and you didn't hear from Andrew either when you left Scientology, right?

[00:35:18]

No. Are you OK, Mike? Are you doing anything? So nobody nobody's contacted you. You and they flew your brother from Australia.

[00:35:25]

Right. OK, and along with those people was four officials, senior officials of Scientology. Jenny Linson, the former wife of Tom debarked, daughter of Art Linson, brother of John Linson. I mean, sister of John Linson. And Moscovitch Pit Bull, she is has literally become a like a shrieking devil, that is, oh, he's the one gennies the one on the video where she's at the airport confronting Marty Rathbun going.

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And nobody gives a fuck about you that way.

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Right. Yeah. Please, everyone, please look this up, please. Look, Jenny Linson up at the airport confronting Marty Rathbun, former senior executive.

[00:36:21]

But that just epitomizes who she is and who Sea Org members are really, right? Yeah, go ahead. And and she is the first person you hear, because when they started approaching me, I said to John, John, you'll never guess who just showed up in the parking lot. My ex-wife and I go through and I start listing these people and and he he was already recording the call and suddenly the screaming starts and it's Jenny Linson, who is the the main source of the noise that emanates from these people.

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But anyway, the other people were LA PSUV, who was the supposed executive director international of the Church of Scientology International, who has not been seen in public.

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In how many years?

[00:37:15]

Many years now? I don't even know who else. David. David Bloomburg, a former rugby player from New Zealand who was one of Moskovitz enforcers, and Sue will hear from the Religious Technology Center. And I said, well, hell was there.

[00:37:33]

Can you tell me what the what the Religious Technology Center is?

[00:37:38]

Arties Religious Technology Center is the organization that is headed by David Miscavige, who calls himself the chairman of the board.

[00:37:48]

Yep. Religious Technology Center. OK, go ahead. These people start, they approach me and start screaming.

[00:37:56]

Stay away from Benjaman. Stay away from Benjaman you motherfucker. You piece shit you bla bla bla bla bla bla.

[00:38:04]

And these are, these are religious. These are people who represent the top, top tier of Scientology, like you said, the Religious Technology Center and the Church of Scientology International. Correct, got to be the ultimate Scientologists. Gotcha. And, you know, like the ultimate of Scientology. Well, here's what's funny.

[00:38:25]

You know, people can see that they go, these are raving lunatics, right? We see it. We go, that was us every day. Yep. This is normal behavior for Scientologists and Sea Org members.

[00:38:39]

Just just so everyone knows.

[00:38:42]

Right. What's so abnormal about this is it was caught and recorded.

[00:38:46]

Right. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, right.

[00:38:49]

And they're screaming at you. Stay away. You're just trying your father screaming.

[00:38:55]

I have never heard anything like this, Mike. Like I mean, like you're saying that was. Recorded, right? Yeah, and I even said to him, I'm recording this. Yeah, the BBC is on the other end of this phone. I think they thought I was just pulling their leg or something.

[00:39:13]

Yeah, yeah. That's what they had to believe that because, I mean, to be exposed in the way that they were exposed.

[00:39:20]

But I guess, you know, because, you know, that is behavior of, you know, of a psychotic or somebody who is, you know, a sociopath. They don't see their behavior as anything normal.

[00:39:34]

Yeah. All right. So exactly. So, so much so they're they're they're carrying on.

[00:39:40]

They basically this was to what what is the purpose of this particular action?

[00:39:45]

Intimidation, right? So they would you know, you would stop talking to the Tampa Bay Times, you would not show up to CNN and you would not show up to see Benjamin or your daughter Taryn like that.

[00:39:58]

So this was all to silence you, correct? OK, and that was the only purpose for it, right? No other no other reason.

[00:40:09]

So would that imply that? So for the last three or four years, Kathy, you haven't talked to Mike. You haven't had your kids call Mike, your kids. You have tried to see your children, you have tried to call your children. We all know they will not take your calls. They will not see you. And, you know, you could see that video again of Mike trying to see his son at the in Clearwater, Florida.

[00:40:35]

And, Mike, they will you have no relationship with them, but not that you had any when you were in.

[00:40:42]

So this is all part of this farce to appear as though you left your family and then. Just kind of and just moving on with your life, and that's not the case, what it was to simply just silence you because they can have a contact with you. You would love contact with them.

[00:40:58]

You would have your son, Benjamin Tarran, live with you and Christy and your boys.

[00:41:04]

I mean, you would welcome them with open arms. You would help Cathy if she wanted to leave the Sea Org. You and Christy would help her as well. Would I as well? Would anybody who was out there because we understand why she's doing what she's doing.

[00:41:17]

Correct. Absolutely. Hey, this is Jason McIntyre, join me every weekday morning on my podcast, Street Fire with Jason Macintyre. This isn't your typical sports pot pushing the same tired narratives down your throat every day. Straight fire gives you a level of authenticity you just don't get. In sports media today, honest opinions on all the biggest sports headlines, accurate stats to help you win big at the sports book and direct conversations with all the best guess. Look, I know what sports fans want.

[00:41:51]

You want the fluff, the lists, the hot takes, but I give you what you need. I can't say that I'm going to be right all the time, but unlike the rest of these shock jocks, I'm always real. Let me tell you something. Patrick Mahomes is not the Michael Jordan of football, but he is the Steph Curry.

[00:42:06]

And you know what else Giannis pulling a Kevin Durant and leaving the small market bucks to build a super team would be great for the NBA. These are just the facts folks. Do yourself a favor and listen to Street Fire with Jason McIntyre on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Heidi Murkoff, host of What to Expect, a new podcast from My Heart Radio when I first wrote What to Expect When You're Expecting my mission was simple to help parents know what to expect every step of the way on what to expect will answer your biggest pregnancy and parenting questions about everything from preconception planning to birth plan.

[00:42:49]

Newborns sleep to toddler tantrums. Motherhood is the ultimate sisterhood, but it can be overwhelming if you don't know what to expect. Listen to what to expect on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. The story gets even more bizarre because ultimately I then tried to get in the car and leave and just drive away from these people because they were like completely crazy. And then a big tussle ensued while they tried to keep the car door open.

[00:43:27]

They took my car keys. They threw the car keys across the parking lot so I couldn't leave. They tried to prevent me from getting in the car.

[00:43:36]

And then when I finally forced my way into the car, they tried to prevent the car door from closing. And the ruckus that is going on is astonishing.

[00:43:45]

It's like this screaming and well, here, if you guys listen to this recording that will be on the website, you'll you'll understand. I mean, I get it might get it's hard to listen to. It's so nice. And you just have to remember, these are employees who are members of Scientology.

[00:44:03]

It's so easy to write them off as just crazy people, innocuous people who you encountered in the middle of the street somewhere who are on crack or some shit, you know, I mean, no, these are Sea Org members, highly regarded Sea Org members in the Church of Scientology today. Right.

[00:44:20]

Right. Yeah, yeah. They're not the lunatics walking down Hollywood Boulevard with a shopping cart.

[00:44:26]

Right. Which is what they sound like. Right. Right, right.

[00:44:29]

In any event, the doctor then hears the noise and comes out to find out what's going on. And I try to make my way into the doctor's office. And she said, should I call the police? The Don Johns? Yeah. And John Sweeney also said, should I call the police? And I said, absolutely, yes.

[00:44:47]

As soon as I said, call the police and they heard that the the sheriffs were going to show up.

[00:44:56]

Jenny Linson gimlets and Dave Bloomburg took off, they jumped in one of the cars along with the two babies and vanished.

[00:45:05]

All right. When the sheriff showed up, long story short, they talked to me, they talked to the doctor, they talked to my brother, my daughter, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

[00:45:16]

And at the same time, the sheriff showed up. Also, a paramedic showed up because Cathy had a graze on her arm, like, I think from trying to hold the door of the car door open.

[00:45:29]

Sure. But I don't know how it happened. OK, they take all the statements and, you know, the report from the sheriff's department. And I'm I'm actually going to say the conclusion was that these people intentionally followed me, Mike, to the doctor's office and confronted me. Although Katherine did receive an abrasion on her arm, the injury was likely caused during incidental contact while Michael was attempting to move away from the group. Right. And the reason I read that is because it's very important in understanding what then happens here.

[00:46:05]

And there is a also a report from the paramedics where they treat Kathy for the graze on her arm and she gives the they in the report. It says the pain level is a two out of 10 and she refuses to be transported to the hospital or to get any further treatment. They put a gauze around her arm and that's it.

[00:46:29]

Now, if you look, since that time, Scientology has accused me of being a wife beater, having broken my wife's arm, even having a Scientologist doctor do a video saying confirming that that is true.

[00:46:51]

Right, that I had broken her arm, that I had caused to permanent neurological damage for which she requires surgery and will never recover in her in the rest of her life, et cetera, et cetera.

[00:47:06]

So I have become like the the person who has caused grievous bodily harm to my next one.

[00:47:15]

Have any contact with her, as the police report says. Incidental, there was incidental contact that caused an abrasion on her arm and that has been turned into I physically assaulted her and caused her permanent neurological and physical damage that she will never recover from.

[00:47:42]

So, Mike, but now in the video, looks like you had somebody had gone after Cathy in this parking lot with a machete like hacked her arm up, right? Yeah, it's insane. It doesn't even look real. I mean, it is bad effects. Bad, very bad, very bad effects, but they hope that people won't bother to look and find out what really is going on and what really happened, but they'll just take this for what it is.

[00:48:17]

And in part, it's for their own internal audience.

[00:48:21]

Right.

[00:48:22]

It's not really this this stuff is not for, you know, investigative journalists to go use because any investigative journalist is going to shoot a million holes in a second. It's for them to be able to tell their Scientology people who may see the aftermath or have read something in the Tampa Bay Times or whatever. Oh, well, here's the real story. Right. And horrendous, right?

[00:48:48]

So it's the fair game for anybody in Scientology.

[00:48:52]

It's right to discredit you and that you left, that you're saying you were being beaten, that you were being abused, that you saw abuse in Scientology directly by David Miscavige. And this is their way of, you know, having Scientologists like me go, well, wait a minute, how many people have left and said the same thing about David Miscavige?

[00:49:15]

Well, let's show you there the people that were doing it. And Mike's a, you know, a wife beater. And so that didn't particularly work, Mike. So so nothing came of that other than, you know, it's pretty just concerning. You know, people say, well, somebody walked up to me in my car, you know, when it happens to you, it does have an effect on you. It is especially what you've been through.

[00:49:39]

Mike, people have been going through your garbage for years. I've been filming you for years, have been trying to destroy you for years by moving into houses across the street from you, by videoing you everywhere you go, by having you. They have websites up at you, but trying to destroy your career with, you know, when you were first trying to get on your feet, they tried to destroy that job just so that you had no financial support and that you would go running back to Scientology.

[00:50:07]

So this has been going on. So this had no effect. So now what they did is they turned your daughter against you. I mean, this now we're taking you now to most present fair game, right, Mike?

[00:50:17]

OK, Mike's daughter, who once again hasn't heard from her, has showed up.

[00:50:23]

I guess they decided at one point, Mike, they tried to jump on the Metoo movement, but they realized they didn't know what that meant and what it was about. Correct. Right now, one opportunity right now, your daughter's name, we should say, is not Rinder. Right, she she got remarried to some person that I don't know, her name is now Taryn Deutsch, T.U., the EU, DCH.

[00:50:54]

Yeah.

[00:50:55]

And and she has become the the face of this Scientology campaign that they are now running called Justice for Mum, right.

[00:51:07]

Which is, like you said, they tried to tie into the Metoo movement originally, they saw that as a great opportunity.

[00:51:14]

You know, anybody will take and jump on the bandwagon of a woman that steps forward claiming that they have been abused in some fashion.

[00:51:26]

Right. Well, first, she tried to say that you abused her as a baby. Right. Yeah, and that didn't get much movement, and then they then Scientology decided, well, let's go to this other movement because a daughter pretending to be her mother's advocate and champion, that's like a button that's being pushed right now in the wog world.

[00:51:53]

And the warg is derogatory. And by the way, racist term that L. Ron Hubbard came up with to describe non Scientologist.

[00:52:02]

So, you know, they use it every day, like, oh, that's warg medicine. We don't subscribe to warg medicine. Oh, that's warg law. We're above the law.

[00:52:11]

So just so you know, that is a term. So they are using this purposely, right? That's WASG thing.

[00:52:19]

Think. Right. You know, the parent and the mother. Meanwhile, Cathy's not raised her daughter, Orben. Neither has Mike that Bently.

[00:52:27]

So Scientology is the parent and Scientology is the primary caretaker of not only Sea Org members, but even people like me, just Scientologists.

[00:52:38]

My mother sent me to Scientology if I was smoking cigarettes or having sex or, you know, I got sent to Scientology to be reprimanded. And this is the House Scientologist or raised in our parents sent us to Scientology to be raised same, even more so for Sea Org members. Then you hardly ever see your child.

[00:53:00]

Correct. So this campaign now is what she apparently does full time is her job in the Sea Org, right.

[00:53:08]

She literally works with with our old buddy Ed Pocan and the Stand Ligue, the Scientology front group that stands up for religious freedom, supposedly freedom of speech unless it impacts on them. Right. And she goes around and has inveigled herself into and this is another Scientology tactic into other organizations that are doing the same thing. Yeah.

[00:53:41]

Pretending that she is just like them. So she goes and has her picture taken with the district attorney for Los Angeles County, Jackie Lacey, the woman who was responsible for prosecuting. Danny Masterson, mm hmm. And with Gretchen Carlson, because she was, you know, a famous founder of the Metoo Movement and various other organizations and groups and pretends that she has a legitimate cause and she is actually speaking at these events. And she is it is so insane.

[00:54:23]

And this is part of the fair game tactic, infiltrate real organizations that are doing the works. Are you up here as legitimate?

[00:54:34]

And that is what tearin your daughter has done.

[00:54:37]

So the survivors thought, you know what, we're going to start to show up to these events because these events are for people like us. And an up to then they were scared to quite honestly and I'm sure a lot of victims feel that way. They don't see themselves as victims and not survivors. And and so they continue to do this type of thing, Mike, where they infiltrate real organizations pretending to be victims. And that is why we continue to speak about it, because people need to actually know how far they will go.

[00:55:10]

They they know no bottom. There is no bottom for Scientology or Scientologists.

[00:55:16]

People ask, like, you know, how can people like your daughter?

[00:55:21]

And also, like, you know, everybody who's done a hate video about me that I considered family of 35 years.

[00:55:28]

You have to get into the you know, I guess you have to understand the mindset. This would be the brainwashing to its fullest to to justify heinous acts is they believe they're doing good.

[00:55:44]

They they believe they're justified in breaking the law, in lying, in doing whatever they have to do to save Scientology because they believe that Scientology is man's only solution.

[00:55:58]

Correct. That's what's so sad about this. Yeah.

[00:56:02]

Is, you know, I look at my daughter and my son and I see what they do. And they say and unfortunately, I understand it, right.

[00:56:12]

Because you're as you were that person. So as I'm like. Right, I know. Yeah.

[00:56:17]

And they also don't know you. You know, you don't know each other, Mike. I mean, I know that sounds really awful, but you did not raise your children. They were not raised by Kathy. They were not raised by you.

[00:56:29]

It's it's it's something that people have to understand why Scientologists are so easy to attack. You know, my father, who wasn't even a Scientologist, did a video about me. He hated Scientology is all liked.

[00:56:43]

But again, my father didn't raise me. Right. Right.

[00:56:47]

So it's easy for him because my father, you know, was a narcissist, an egomaniac.

[00:56:54]

I mean, my my dad probably had mental problems, but it was still heartbreaking that I didn't get a chance to because I even though I say these things about my dad, you know, I loved him. But in that they used him against me when he wasn't even a Scientologist just goes to show you, I mean, my friends of 35 years, they see France, as I considered her, a sister.

[00:57:21]

I was the godmother to her babies. And for her to come out and and call me a racist, I mean, I don't know how many more stabs to the heart, you know what I mean?

[00:57:33]

Like, I'm just kind of left speechless. But like you said, Mike, we don't particularly like to talk about ourselves so much because people have received so much worse. Maybe not in your case, Mike, but certainly in my case, you know, I understand that the job that I've taken undertaken and the task at hand, I am susceptible to, you know, my friends saying horrible things about me, people that I love to say horrible things about me.

[00:58:05]

And I have to accept that.

[00:58:07]

But where it comes to survivors like the Danny Masterson survivors who are being fair game today and this type of activity happening where your daughter and Scientology is engaged in these campaigns, justice for mom.

[00:58:23]

It'll continue, guys. It'll continue. But the more educated you can be, the better. Because if you work or volunteer for one of these organizations, we want you to be aware of what is going on with Scientology.

[00:58:37]

And their intention is not to is really to just get their own video and infiltrate just to to further their own their own means. So anyway, guys, I mean, that's all I have to say today. Mike, do you have any more?

[00:58:53]

No, it's just what's valuable about this is what you just said.

[00:58:59]

We need to educate people. And the reason we continue to talk and do this show and do anything else that we do is so that people understand what is really going on and so that we can bring these abusive practices ultimately to an end.

[00:59:14]

And I hope that we have taken another little step towards accomplishing that end with this show today.

[00:59:21]

So thank you for listening until next year.

[00:59:32]

My name is Langston Kaminen, I'm a black man who loves conspiracy theories, that's why I, along with the beautiful oppressor's that I heart radio and big money players have a brand new podcast called My Mama Told Me where each week me and a special guest will explore all the twisted conspiracies that the white man is keeping secret.

[00:59:50]

So listen to my mama told me available on the radio app, Apple podcast or anywhere else that pods are cast. In 1983, Diane Downs shot her three children, killing one and severely injuring the others, she showed up for her trial pregnant. Now, nearly 40 years later, that child, Becky Babcock, is on a journey to explore her connection with her mother's violent past. Listen to Happy Face presents to face on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you find your favorite shows.