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Hi, I'm David Plouffe. And I'm Steve Schmidt. We're the host of Battleground, a new podcast from the recount.


In 2008, I ran Senator John McCain's campaign for president, David Manege. Senator Obama's in battleground.


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Well, hello, we are back again with another episode of Scientology Fair Game, we're joined by Mike Rinder.


Highclere, it's great to be back again. And it's it's wonderful to welcome our guest this week. Yes. Who is someone that I have known since, oh, I don't know, 1973 or 1974, something like that. Oh, this feels so good to say this.


Sorry, I was for. Go ahead.


I wasn't Carondelet Karia, who has been a very, very good friend to me, someone who has stood by me and Julia since she has left the church. Yes. But prior to leaving she was a what's known as a Class 12 auditor.


And what does that mean? She attained the highest level of training and expertise in the subject of Scientology. That is possible under the direction of the man himself, L. Ron Hubbard.


And very, very few people in the world can claim the status that she had in Scientology. And on top of that, she was also married to Heba Jentsch, who, as we all know, was the former president of the Church of Scientology International who disappeared and has been held at the Golden Era Productions property. As we talk to Tammy Clark about.


Correct. Karam has a lot of information about Scientology, but also she has personal experiences that she has been the target of Fair Game.


Thank you, Michael. Real pleasure. Can I just throw in one thing? You know, the phrase imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Yes, well, you, too. Mike Rinder, Leah Remini from Precedented Success in the Sparkasse Scientology is looking at to forecast, Tony, on this block. Yes, I'm sure that is the sincerest form of flattery. Yes. Yes, you. Yes, we copy copycat. Yes. Yes. Well, listen, and we could be accused of that.


You've been doing wonderful work on your own channel if you want to talk about that, as well as your partner, Jeffrey, who has a wonderful website called the Scientology Money Project, which is amazing. But you guys also do videos which your videos are really for the purpose.


I love the reenactments because a lot of times people don't.


Really understand what procedures go on in Scientology and and reenacting these and actually showing us what what actually goes down in a in an auditing, you know, session of Scientology or just explaining policies in the way that you guys do.


So so you've been doing it before us.


And the only the only thing that I want to clarify is because people get confused because Karen was a Sea Org member, like you said, married to Heber Jones, who hasn't been seen in public in 15 years, who is at the gold base in Riverside County. But you guys were married. You were in the Sea Org and this at the time, Karen, they were allowing Sea Org members. They have since stopped allowing this to have children in the Sea Org.


So you had your son Alexander with Heber in the Sea Org?


Yeah. Yeah, little things. I dearly wanted one more child. I saw them putting on the brakes and heaver and I had to petition. Imagine having to bake hierarchy to have a child. We attach statistics, proof of stellar protection. After all, I was a Class 12 case, not just a Class 12 auditor. I supervised the Irish senior all the Class 12. And and that's pretty big shit, by the way.


Everybody like who's listening was like hearing these words. Class 12 senior Kacie. I just know she was the shit in Scientology.


People would call her sir. You know, this is like imagine wearing epaulets and the military uniform. This this person and what it takes to be a class 12 would be analogous to a bachelor's degree, Mike, wouldn't you say? No.


A master's doctor of philosophy that is the equivalent in Scientology is a doctorate degree, OK? It is the ultimate. You can't get any more. She became the professor, the lead professor of Scientology.


And I'll tell you, it was brutal to get there. Sure. No days off. Mm. 60 to 70 hour weeks burn the midnight oil. Mm. Oh, I'm not sure what I mean what do you do when you leave your personal belief.


So you had your son Alexander in the Sea Org and as we all know, children in the sea or not raised particularly by their parents there because of the workload and what's expected of us.


You remember like you're saying, you're working morning, noon and night with no time off, maybe an hour to see your child, but your child is given to a Scientology daycare, you know, and supervised by people.


And this is still goes on today in in a certain way, not so much with children, but with any kind of medical care for staff.


These positions to take care of children and people in the Sea Org are usually 12 year olds and people with no formal education in how to care for children or people. So your son Alexander was was basically raised by other children. Correct. And other Sea Org members. And you saw him, what, an hour a day maybe.


Right. Well, they cut off family time as well. So that one hour got cut off. They were shipped to a ranch two hours outside Los Angeles. Right. So a two hour journey. They have two hours to come. Four hours. You you just couldn't do it. Yeah, so. So, yeah. So my only make that point.


So people understand that because this is how parishioner children are raised, you usually send your child to a Scientology organization to do courses all day. And basically Scientology is raising that kid. And so that's where they get their, you know, quote unquote formal education.


And so even Scientology parents who are not in the Sea Org don't raise their children, but go ahead.


So you so so you were in the Sea Org now highly decorated Sea Org member for how long? 20 something years.


Right. I left in 1990. OK, but Alexander was now a SEAL member and I stayed in the being a good girl, a good Scientologist for another twenty years.


So meaning so many. Just to clarify. So you left the Sea Organization, correct. However, you remained a Scientologist. Yes. 2010.


Anyone you abided by the policies of Scientology, which is not to speak out or say anything disparaging about Scientology, because if you had you.


Would have risked knowing your son. Right, right. So I cut him off from me and they did exactly what I did. Sure. So in 2010, what happened? Well, I came out on Marty's blog, Marty Rathbun, another form.


So Marty Rathbun, everybody, just to remind you, is a former high ranking Sea Org member, former friend of Mike Rynders and Karens and all of us and has gone back into Scientology.


Yeah, I came I came out. I really have to thank my Karoonda who held my hand. Because I was in such a black cloud, I was I was so disaffected, but I didn't have the guts to just come out and lose Alexander, so I was in this no man's land of wanting wanting to do the right thing.


And yet I couldn't write. I've done a total vision till finally I. I did it. But I would call we would talk for one hour at a time. Mike answered all my questions as to why they so brutalized me and in base and. And as that was enormous help to me. Well, Karen, let's go back for once again because you just mentioned something. What were the circumstances of what you did leave the Sea Org after so long?


Why did you leave? I had two very, very bad, tortured, torturous incidents in the Seahawk and I just couldn't get over. I couldn't. This is not what I signed up for. Well, I think one was I I was a class 12 six statistics out the roof and I was bucking against the system on taking really demented illegal species by species who were suicidal. Please.


No, no, no, no. People don't know what pieces are, so.


Oh, I see. Well, public wanted Scientology services. Yes. And as long as they had gobs of money. They were hurled into this class. We talk about you were hurled into a certain area and I was solely responsible to see that they would win, which Scientology procedures. Right.


And you felt that. And you felt that these. People that people were that Scientology was allowing in was against the policies that you knew from L. Ron Hubbard that these people should not be accepted into Scientology, not just that we were the wrong forum.


They didn't need to go to some institution or so on. I mean, they were threatening, for example, to throw themselves off the balcony outside the Crystal Ballroom. Oh, so you're saying they needed. Oh, so you're saying they needed real help, not Scientology. Yes, that's OK. And so this is what's so funny, Mike, here she is, a dedicated Scientologist at the top of the training chart for Scientology. Like one of the lead, she would be considered a lead therapist, a lead psychologist, the head of departments.


Right. Right. And she's saying we can't help these people. Right. We shouldn't. And they need help.


And of course, they had money, as Karen said. So you can't send them anywhere else.


They've still got money to be looked at. And this was a horrendous dilemma.


And I'm going to save Karen the pain of having to go through the other experience, because I am very familiar with that.


She was brought to the international base at Golden Era Productions and put onto what is called heavy manual labor.


And the reason for this, David Miscavige did not like Karen. David Miscavige sought to persuade Heba to divorce Karen because he thought she was too much of a loudmouth.


She wasn't good for his you know, he was staying on the program and being with the with the team and that she was a bad influence on people.


I mean, he was exactly right.


If you take bad influence being think for yourself. Right. And have a sort of a perspective on things that isn't just the Scientology perspective, but.


Well, that resulted. She was she was a God. She was she was a trouble source. And in the mind of David Miscavige, a trouble source like that has to be dealt with. So she was brought to a golden era productions and May basically turned into slave labor without any.


And the horrible thing about it and what Karen and I talked about for so long that she refers to is that she had no idea what she had done wrong or why she was there. She was just being punished for the sake of punishing and breaking her. And she didn't know what she had to do to ever figure out how do I get back to being just a normal person again.


And that that happens to a lot of people in Scientology, in the sea organization, particularly those who come close to the orbit of David Miscavige. And Sharon was because he was that was the end of the road for Karen in the Sea Org. Absolutely. I heard on numerous occasions David Miscavige say Karen is not good for him. But I was he was boss at the time.


And I heard a lot of this stuff about, oh, he was messed up and he did this and he did that and he said the wrong thing on a TV interview. And it would always go back to and it's because of his connection to Karen Brooks.


Karen's a bad influence. Karen's not Karen's this Karen's that. It's like this.


Endless stories about the reason why he was not performing his duties well was because he was married to Karen and Mike, sort of Religious Technology Center. David Miscavige is. Yeah, organization. And his henchmen at the time was assigned to deal with Karen and basically get her to. Do what Scientology Sea org members are expected to do ultimately, which is admit it's all me, I'm bad, I've done all these terrible things. Please, please, please forgive me.


I'll do whatever it is that you want.


Right. So there's even a fair gaming within the organization where if if somebody is speaking up or showing some independence, not getting with the program like Karen was saying, then that's considered trouble. So then they start the campaign within the organization, meaning with you, Mike, with Heber telling heaver, well, it's not your fault. You're incompetent, it's Karens and it's your wife's. And this happens all the time, like in Scientology, in the sewer, the divorce rate.


And Scientology has to be astronomical because divorces happen as soon as David Miscavige says that person is not, you know, worth because they're saying maybe they want to leave or maybe they're saying this is not right. We shouldn't be beating people.


You're out. You're exactly right, Leah, but it's even worse than that. OK, I don't know that you even know this, but at a certain point it was determined that if someone was married to a person in a different, i.e., lower organization, they had to get a divorce.


So like Claire Headley was told to divorce Mark because Claire Headley was in Religious Technology Center with David Miscavige and Mark Headley was in Golden Era Productions, same facility, same organ, same thing. But they were a different organization.


So they were ordered to get a divorce.


Right. A family of five brutally killed in their sleep in the companion podcast Biomax, as the murders at White House Farm, you'll hear from those involved in the making of the series and the real life events on which the drama is based. Stream the murders at White House Farm now on Biomax and subscribe and listen to the murders at White House Farm, the podcast on the I Heart radio app, Biomax, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.


Hi, I'm David Plouffe. And I'm Steve Schmidt. We're the host of Battleground, a new podcast from the recount.


In 2008, I ran Senator John McCain's campaign for president. David Man and Senator Obama's in battleground.


We're going state by state and giving you in-depth reporting on the Trump and Biden strategies so that you understand what they're doing and more importantly, why they're doing it.


Listen, a battleground on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast.


When you get married in Scientology, there are three people in the marriage, even if you're public, public seal as you, your spouse and Scientology is in the bedroom. They will get knowledge reports of even pillow talk. There's three people in the marriage when you are in when you marry in Scientology. And that might precipitate the astronomic statistics of divorces because there is constant third party and whispering. Oh, yes, well, third party meet, third party to everybody at home means third party means exactly how it sounds.


There's a third entity in any relationship that's talking badly about one to to one and talking badly about the other so that they're both kind of starting to hate each other secretly.


And that third person remains kind of hidden. Who's causing the trouble? You know, Micah had a cognition.


I realized something. David Miscavige was super friendly to me in earlier times when he had these big dinner parties, when he was Burke, they he he was very cordial to me. Well, maybe because you were on well, maybe because you were compliant then or you didn't actually show him your truth.


But I realized one thing I did that humorously pissed him off and he doesn't forgive when you anger him. Talk about holding a grudge. I personally defended David Mayo, his arch enemy. Now people have different time tracks with David. To me, David, from the time I arrived on the ship, he really protect me. He helped me. He was good to me. So I only so when he was suddenly in 82, declared be an enemy.


Yeah, I, I made it. I was loud like Michael, like Mike Rinder said. And I said, no, David, David Mayo was a good guy and this led to my removal to run around a pole. Twelve hours a day, two things, one is I was walking, Wendell Reynolds said, Jeannie Williamson said that I was counting intention to raising revenue by making a fuss about certain illegal species. And, you know, I had I had people come to me in my ivory tower and put their nose in my face and say, So you don't believe how technology works.


You don't feel you can help this person, do you? Are you are you saying how technology doesn't work because someone had a meltdown? Right. This was a shakedown anyway.


So I really proclaimed David and I got a committee of evidence for that. And that's the point that David Miscavige could no longer I was because he was super friendly. On the other hand, my friend will tell you the flip flopping of him. Yes, he shows you. He shows you love, and then he turns on you like a rattlesnake. That's classic David Miscavige. Right.


So let's go back to 2010. You you speak out for the first time.


Yes, I, I gave a little time track and I gave time track of. My training and my dedication and my loyalty and. Then within two weeks or even 10 days, I got a call from my CPA nurse called saying the FBI were visiting with him.


So so two weeks after you speak out, after being in Scientology for most of your life years. Yeah.


Within two weeks, the fair gaming begins the fair game. Gotcha. That's OK. And what was the first thing? It was a chilling message that he said that there was an anonymous phone call to the FBI that I was trafficking in under-age children for sex. In other words, after 40 years and a senior SEAL technical member, I flip flop, walked up the next morning and became a human trafficker of children, underage sex. No. Yep, got it.


And the FBI were somewhat cynical, was an anonymous phone call, they didn't leave any. So they said, does Karen have any enemies? Mm hmm. And he said, oh, she just came out of the Church of Scientology. She describes a mystery. The FBI literally went back to that chair they like. And that was the. The case was closed. The FBI didn't even call me to get further data. It was the end of the amnesty.


I know about fair game. Well, they know what the Church of Scientology.


Maybe, maybe, maybe they didn't back then. But so far, they haven't impressed me. But going forward, Karen, in your story, they tend to be slow.


This slow is so slow that the word for Garrett Glassell.


Oh, I like it. Oh, very, very slow. All joking aside, the FBI drops this sex child sex trafficking allegation. Then what happens, Karen? Then someone from the city of L.A. shows up and says, we've had a report, we need to inspect your property, we've had a report that there are so much hoarding here, they're dead rats all over the place and that your house could cause bubonic plague to the whole neighborhood. And even they said not to be panic.


Plague. Yes. They said they wanted plague and and and they said, you know, people don't usually send in reports. So over the top. Over the moon. Yeah. I'm using my language for sure. So they came in and at that time I was having different media come and interview me and used my living room. So it was absurd to say I had dead rats all over the place. Anyway, they they apologized. They said, you know, it's just routine.


We're sorry. And then I called him into my office. Yes. And I showed them an Internet site, hate site, which said the same thing. She hasn't cleaned her home in years. The Scientology Hate, Hate, Hate website. OK, so they saw that. And is this the Scientology?


Is this the who is Karen or is this. I have plenty of hate sites for and I don't have a who's Karen.


Is this how freedom is this a freedom magazine. Stanley type spoke out. You say this and they don't even open stand here. Oh OK. This was, this was ten years ago. That's so within hours, the next day Animal Control showed up and they said, we've had to report that you're torturing animals again. They looked at the report. This is it was so extreme and so over the top they said, we really apologize, but we need to check.


So they came and saw my beloved pooches healthy and happy by happy birds and so on. Sure. And I said, you know, yesterday health health officers came and now animal control. And, you know, they were so cruel. They said, you know what, this is wasting city official time. This is wrong. Oh, we're going to write to every agency. I've got electronic gates. I've got a tree. You care for tight security?


I mean, I've got boss everywhere. I videotape everyone. Everyone knows they're on the video camera. So so the helpful city officials said enough is enough. They're actually wasting city official time by sending us up. So they wrote to every single agency and asked me to see if there's any further report. It's the Church of Scientology, right? That was the that was the end of city officials coming.


I find it very interesting and sort of enlightening. Anybody who knows Karen knows that she is not. She is beyond an animal lover. She is an animal rescue person. She helps rescue all sorts of animals. She's known all over Los Angeles for this.


This is the Scientology find what is important or what a person is seeking to protect and attack that.


Now, Mike, before you go on, because, yes, you cannot assume that people know what you're talking about, especially with your Australian accent. You know, it's you know, it's so soothing, Mike, that I don't know that that it gets in because people are just like, oh, Mike Rinder.


And so when you speak, you speak so nice as opposed, to me, a Brooklyn Street person.


OK, so what Mike is talking about is once again, fair game directives. And one of the directives is a policy that's that says here's how you get somebody. So, one, find out what the person seeks to protect. OK, what does that mean? Oh, my my reputation. So then they go out and they say, all right, well, this person go out and say that this person loves to do weird shit with animals and this one is a wife beater.


And that one's of this right to try to discredit the person. Oh, wait a minute. Their family is important to them all.


And then it says and the third thing I think, Mike, and tell me if I'm wrong is the third thing is but you could certainly look at the very least you can cost them their job, right?




So they went after all things, which. Are minor in comparison to her son's story, right, but they went after the one thing, the one thing they went after, the thing that's most important, all the things she is seeking to protect. That's what that's exactly what the Hubbard policy says. You go after that which the person is seeking to protect because that is what is important to them and that is what will create the most impingement, intimidation or affect on them.


And when anybody who knows Karen knows how much she loves animals, so accusing her of being an animal abuser is, you know, like the worst thing that you can do. I don't know.


I mean, one would argue calling the FBI and saying that she's trafficking sex trafficking children, that's pretty egregious.


Yes. But that's also a button.


You know, that's also something that is in alignment with that idea of you accuse people of the things that they most don't want to be accused of, things that are so abhorrent to them that it has the greatest impact. Yes. You know, if someone came along and accused me of being a fan of Australian Rules football, it wouldn't have any impact because, yeah, I am a big deal.


If someone came along and accused me of you hate all all children, I would be very offended by that.


So it's it's finding and isolating these things that are what is called the buttons of people.


And that's why, you know, Animal Services is showing up to Karen's place, the last place in the world that animal services would ever think to go.


Right. So now, Karen, it's not just these four incidents that you laid out, three or four incidents that you laid out.


It is e mails. It's attempting to hack you.


It was you had confessed and I don't know, I'll bring it up, even though because we've talked about this and you said it was OK to talk about this, OK, they shamed you, body shamed you for an enhancement that you had gotten done after you left Scientology.


Yes. Yes. This is this is good. I'm so glad you said that. Yeah. I don't know if any church or religion that uses your own children, your own intimate family against you. Right. This is they put up look, I felt Daudi when I left to Seeable, I felt I lost. And so I went and had a boob job. No, I was still a good Scientologist. Sure. And the only person in the world that knew about it was my counsellor.


Sugar, your Scientology. Scientology say they handle trauma. Sure. Anaesthesia with a boob job is trouble. Right? So I ran the incident in a Scientology session that I felt was the sanctity of a session. Well, they put up a hate website. Ha ha ha. She had a boob job and then they got Alexander run your son, your son and call me up and say, Mom, look at this. It says you had a boob job.


Imagine using your Mike Rinder knows all about this in my heart. My heart goes out to you on all of that, Mike. But they used Aleksandar Jentsch. My son and say, why did you have your precious next month, right, on this hate website? Sure, sure. I'm telling you, Michael, if Alexandrov was alive, he would have done the turn to skidoos because he when you when you grow up in that nursery and all, you know, in the mindset you even from a child onward, although you you didn't buy any of that.


You were a child and you wanted out. You got out. Good for you. Well, yeah. I mean, I have a different story.


I was not raised in the sewer, although I was in the sewer for a year and a Scientologist, most of my life in Scientology did raise me. I like those of us, including you, including Mike and Jeff and everyone who's left Scientology.


There was a piece of us always that remained the fighter and that was with us and that allowed us to fight back and leave, which I believe, you know, there's more more there who do have that.


But let's go. So let's get back to this. So they fair game you they they called you a prostitute on your hate website. They have sent you emails. They send you emails to this day taunting you, stalking you. And I'm talking email after email. Guys, this is not like once in a while Karen gets an email.


I mean, it is it's daily beating, it's daily ridicule, it's daily body shaming and hate filled vitriol and and just trying to taunt her, trying to drive her insane, which is what they do to all of us.


And Karen is let me just say a perfect example of why Mike and I especially try not to speak about ourselves.


And although the fair game against Mike is pretty egregious and horrible, my story is not even it's not even on the same in the same universe as Karen's. And so that is why I choose not to when people ask, are you being followed or whatever, I, I don't want to say yes.


I just don't want to in comparison, like, oh yeah.


OK, I'm being followed. You either go through my car. Yeah. They're trying to get me fired. But Jesus, when you listen to a story like this, what Karen and Jeff have put up with for years, the heartbreak that you are dealing with, that you have been left with from Scientology is just unspeakable.


Your son ends up being used against you and then your son gets sick.


He gets a flu walking pneumonia. OK, so he gets a walking pneumonia for which he could have taken medication for, but because he was a Scientologist. They they claim to be medical doctors and treat treat symptoms with vitamins.


But at this time, Karen, your son was disconnected from you. Well, he had to report to Donatella, this intelligence operative, and also he had to report every week. Now, also for everybody, Special Affairs is that is a part of the Organization of Scientology ecocide. Yes. Yes. They handle legal and public relations. And you know what?


Now, actually, what they do, Karen, is they go after people and destroy their lives. All right. So, yes. And legal is like little fringe part of it. But but but really what they do is they just actively try to destroy people's lives. So Scientology not only now applied the heartbreak of disconnection, their disconnection policy to you and Alexander.


You could not speak to your son.


You could speak to your son, but your son couldn't speak to you, meaning you were out of Scientology and would have accepted your son to be a Scientologist. But Scientology policy says if one speaks out against Scientology and what we're doing, you can't talk to them.


And he was under you know, he was listening to his primary caretaker, which is Scientology, that says you can't talk to your suppressive evil mother.


And reporting to Oza, the Office of Special Affairs. And then he gets sick. Yeah, they quickly tried to send somebody far away from jurisdiction, so you can't meet my so they had bundled him off to Dallas Fort Worth. He was living in Dallas Fort Worth so that he wasn't in proximity of me, OK. And he would get these recurring fevers. And Stan, who's that magician like the magician Stan Gersen. Stan, an old magician who plays at the Magic Castle, OK, and heavily promote Scientology.


Thank you. So he won. Now, what did he have to do with the story? Alexander and him had some special friendship. OK, Alexander tended to adopt older males as a pseudo dad. He called himself the boy without a dad because he was in every hole for years. What do you think was in the dungeon? He was imprisoned. And you can't talk to your kids when you are in the dungeon in those in your Scientology prison at Gold Base in Riverside County.


So he gets tough choices by Stan. What if he can't breathe? A touch? Assist is touching your body saying, feel my finger, feel my finger. So it's a Scientology process. OK, yes. Procedure when when he couldn't breathe 48 hours later. So I get a call from Eric Smith at 11 who didn't know me, who I didn't know at the time. And he's and it's a Facebook message. And he says. Alexander is dead.


I'm so sorry to tell you. So it was incredulous, you had no idea, Karen, you had no idea, nobody from Scientology told you, even though Hebra was in the Sea Org, he wasn't notified that his son had passed.


You don't know, actually, but you know that you weren't contacted by anybody. Now you're contacted by a stranger and XY.


Org member, an ex Scientologist, Aaron Smith Levin, who just as a good person, thought maybe you didn't know because he knows the procedure in Scientology, that because you're considered a suppressive person, you don't matter.


You don't you don't need to know if your son is sick and dying or has passed because you, Karen, are an evil piece of shit for the Church of Scientology. Currently, it's a bitter pill that I served and worked 80 hour weeks for, and I immediately called Mike Rinder to, I say I am trying to grasp what happened. And Mike verified because Mike had other connections through Christie and and so on, and my my universe collapsed. Of course, I'm very private about my grieving.


Yes. But I'll tell you, there's only two things I could do. I could wrap myself up in a ball in a fetal position, and I could weep and moan and carry on, or I could grieve and rise up again like a phoenix and like them and expose them. And I chose that Alexander's death would not be in vain, that I would have a voice. Darren, I mean, we know the story and it's still upsetting, so you go to the morgue to see or attempt to see the body of your son and what happened?


I was banned from seeing my son. But how is that possible? Well, they cited that in Los Angeles, the wife has total. The wife is the kingpin, the wife. It's not the mother. It's not the parents. If the wife well, she was in cahoots with Osama. So Alexander married a Scientologist and she was blocking you because she's in cahoots with Oza and Scientology.


Right. Karen, where you where you were blocked from being able to see your son in the morgue?


It's even more than that because Jeffrey and I traced this where he was released from the morgue to a mortuary to be cremated. But I had that window of time for 24 hours. I only wanted to give him one last kiss on his forehead or just something. And he was released down the road in Pasadena. The dead body was there. And Jeffrey and I were begging the head of the mortuary to let me in for a last look at my my son.


There was only a wall between his dead body and me. And we called and we called and we banged the head of this that, you know, the funeral director, we begged and he had been so threatened by. He said he just couldn't risk losing his business. So I terrified of OSA. So Scientology went in and to the to the absolutely walled me off and said, you will not let this woman in or we will destroy your business.


Well, that's what he implied he was. He couldn't do it. He was in terror because we wouldn't leave. We kept calling, of course. And the mom, you know, he was born out of my room and the painful C-section. And you weren't even able to, of course, and you weren't even able to perform if you wanted to to to say this something is this is very odd circumstance.


There is odd circumstances of my son's death.


I want to get an autopsy done. I had no say OSAT had this to destroy your soul.


I mean, to lose your son is the worst possible. Possible thing that could happen, it it's it's something you never recover from.


Mike, I want to ask you a question about this.


How does this work in Oza that they would go so far?


How can they block a mother from seeing her own son? Other than what? What Karen described here is that they also went in Scientology operatives went in and threatened basically the.


The guy who runs the place, I mean, but other than that, or is there any legal avenues that they took to to push Karen out from seeing her own son?


They figured out how to take the law that exists, which, as Karen said, is that the wife, even though Alexander was estranged from his wife at that time.


Right. And use the authority of the wife to preclude anybody else from seeing the body and anybody else means Karen. And it was only to preclude Karen. So. Right.


You know, they got their lawyers to find out what's the law in California, who has the who has power of attorney and right to say if you violate this, we will now go after you.


And that's why under normal circumstances, someone like that would just say, of course, you're his mother. Come on in. Because he'd been threatened.


He'd been threatened that if you do that, you're violating the rights of the wife and therefore we will go after you. So that's exactly how it happens.


OK, Karen, the ex-wife was a Scientologist, I'm assuming. Still is a Scientologist. She didn't work for Scientology. She was a parishioner. Scientology, right.


So Religion Celebrity Center SEAL for six years. Oh, she was OK. She left you. But all her family are very grounded. Her parents are only seven. So what's her Scientology family agree on? The real change? I feel like she had complete authority over me.


You also had mentioned there were strange circumstances of which Alexander died.


He had walking pneumonia. The coroner. We visited the coroner multiple times cause we wanted they did complete drug autopsies. I mean, are they dead? Yeah. And they said, you know, at twenty dale. Twenty dollar antibiotic if he'd been on antibiotics his life. But he had he was awesome. He had no dad. He was in the hole and couldn't talk to him. I couldn't talk to him because I was declared suppressive person antisocial. And so he had no mom and he had no dad.


Right now people know that. I'm sure I could have had a complete medical diagnosis done on him and put him on the right medication, antibiotics, but he wasn't allowed to have a mom. And that's why I feel Scientology has blood on its head. Sure. And by proxy. By default. Because they cut off his mom. They imprisoned his father and he had nothing. No no medical. He had no money for medical. Sure. And he died at twenty seven years old.


Now, Karen, it says a lot about who you are that this didn't destroy you.


Because I couldn't say that it wouldn't destroy me. Had I lost my child? He says a lot about who you are, you're not.


You deserve all the praise in the world and people out there know who've lost children. This is a pain that would be unbearable. And some cannot deal with that pain, but understand that I understand that as well. But like you said, you have you fought back all of these years, you continue to fight back, both you and Jeffrey and I thank you for telling the story.


I hate to ask you and so does Mike.


We honestly hate to ask you to tell these stories to us and to the public what we feel it's so important. But also the success of you as a person, how resilient you are, and you should look up the word resilience because it has it is not just the basic you should look up the psychology definition A.


Of resiliency, because it is you, it says who it is, what you are, and you have risen, you have risen from this pain and you have a YouTube channel.


And I want you to talk about that. Well, the YouTube channel was born out of the pain of Alexander's death. I felt I needed to. I needed to show and tell a bit of his story. Yeah. Anyway, six, seven years later, I have going on 11 million views, which is over one million views a year on the YouTube channel. Yes. And I've had many, many guests, exile members tell the tale. Oh, boy.


Some of them were really faking. We've got to we're going to do some write ups for you with some extraordinary stories. Yeah. So where could they how could they find this?


We should also put the link up, Mike, on on the website to Kerans. Yes, we will.


Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And to Jeffrey's blog.


And, you know, all of these things will absolutely have on these sinta on the Fair Game podcast dot com.


Good job. Like I would like love like. Thank you.


And and and I have Geoffrey who is my absolute rock. I got to tell you that going through Alexander's death would have been a complete collapse. I did collapse that Geoffrey was my tower of strength. Jeffrey. And I have had this wonderful relationship, I know both of you know what it is to have a partner that is so your strength. Yes, yes. So I'm going to give Geoffrey a shout out. My character has always been there for me throughout the years when something really fresh me rattled me.


Sure, I, I, I call on Mike and his wisdom. I don't know where he gets his. We all do. We all might. We should do it. We should do a spinoff series. Karen call my whole life. No better call Mike. Better go Mike. Exactly. Yes. Yes.


And we'll put up we'll put up Geoffrey Jeffreys money, the Scientology money project up on the on the website like like Mike said. And and Karen, once again, thank you to both you and Jeff for all that you do. And thank you for continuing to speak out against Scientology and not giving up and being the beautiful, beautiful, strong woman that you are. And we love you. And we thank you for being with us today.


Thank you for your service. And shut up, all of you. Shut up. She was giving me a compliment. You got a lot of them. You got a lot of them. Mike Lee.


And all of that goes for me, too, Karen, as you know.


And I just did it again. I want to just add that one thing that is very important to me among my friends and you know this, Leah, is the idea that a real friend is loyal.




That that you know, that no matter what happens, they will always be by your side. That, to me, is the definition of a true friend. And that to me is Karen and Jeff.


Yes. Agreed. That's beautifully spoken. We are usually utterly, uh, you know, you have our loyalty and. We think the world. I just don't know how that you realize how loved you are in popular culture, you are just so loved and none of Scientology's malicious yak yak and the air and it doesn't mean fiddlesticks, you are loved. You have a growing audience. This podcast is going to increase your audience. I noticed since you started the podcast on the two major sites, Friends of Leah, The Aftermath, supporters of Leah in the aftermath, the amount of people applying to join.


To give support is just astronomically verson so good on you think lots of things to you. Oh, will take me loving you. We love you. I love you guys. Kiss, kiss. Bye bye, honey. Say God. Love you both. Love you. Bye. Damn, Mike, you still didn't let me get a compliment in any way.


Thank you for listening while you were cutting her off every time I said oh excuse me.


And then it ended back on you with more compliments.


But anyway you deserved the like. Oh Karen, you're still on the phone. Sorry.


Anyway, until next week.


Everyone, thank you again for listening. And like Karen said, you know, you guys have been supporting us and it means everything to not just me and Mike, but to the people who whose stories means so much to us and the pain that they've been through. So when you support us, you're supporting them. And we are so grateful, really humbled by it.


And whether this podcast is successful or not successful, we at least got to say these stories and got to put more attention on what Scientology has been doing. And for that we are grateful. So to my heart and everybody who's making this available, we thank you.


And until next time, Mike, what Leah said, I love you. See you next week. Who could be responsible for murdering a family of five in the most horrific way imaginable?


That's what occurred when quiet night in Essex, England, in 1985, when police ruled that 28 year old Sheila Cofell murdered her parents and six year old twin boys before killing herself as evidence continued to surface. However, the truth revealed something even more sinister. I'm Lauren Bright. Pachuco. Join me as we go behind the crime scenes of the new HBO series, the murders at White House Farm, as well as the infamous real life events that inspired it.


We'll talk to the people involved with the series and the case itself and find out why suspicion started to shift from Sheila to someone else and reflect on the fallout for all involved stream the murders at White House Farm now on Biomax and subscribe and listen to the murders at White House Farm, the podcast on the radio app, Biomax, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.