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Hi there, my name is John Paul Kurumi, I am a breastwork teacher. I'm really excited to be doing this new podcast with my good friend Foully called Hang Up. That's right. I'm John Feldman. I'm in a band called Gold. Singer John Paul taught me breath work. It changed my life. We're talking about solutions to problems today.


Listen to hang ups on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts up on where the bodies are buried, contains graphic depictions of violence that some listeners may find disturbing.


Discretion is advised. Forget what you've heard about serial killers, forget the movies, podcasts and stories in the media of infamous psychopaths like Jeffrey Dahmer and Ted Bundy.


I'm going to show you what exists beyond all of that. And you will hear from the source, the killers themselves. This is where the bodies are buried.


That is a massive. My name is Phil Chalmers. For over 35 years, I've dedicated my life to communicating with and studying hundreds of serial killers, teen killers, school shooters and mass murderers. I helped solve cold cases, locate bodies and bring closure to hurting families of the victim. Joining me is my wife, Wendy, and my producers, Adam and Samantha. Samantha, you ready? Yep. All right. We're rolling. One, two. All right.


Let's jump in to Clyde Gibson.


You know, this is a prepaid call from William Gibson, an inmate at the Indiana State Prison.


On this episode of Where the Bodies Are Buried, Esteems serial killer profiler Phil Chalmers speaks with William Clyde Gibson, who's currently serving life at Indiana State Prison for killing three people. He discusses his reign of terror over two decades and dozens of other murders, including the slaying of his mother's 75 year old best friend for walking in on him, chopping up a corpse. You'll witness how Phil Gaines Clydes trust in the hopes of getting another confession.


This call is from a correction facility and is subject to monitoring and recording. Hey, Mr. Feeny, hard to get a hold of.


You know, if I don't answer, you keep calling William Gibson. We're talking to you here. But his nickname is Clyde. You're in prison for multiple murders. First of all, tell us why you're in prison and what your sentences is.


I got to death sentences and 165 year sentence, and they're all four murders for hacking and mutilation and the rest of the party teaching me stuff like that. I mean, this treacherous stuff, I'm where I belong. I know that.


What was your childhood like? A lot of people think serial killers, that when they grow up, they kill animals and set fires and they have really bad families. But you didn't quite have that, did you?


I don't fit any of their profiles. I've never been through the animals, never set fires, no kind of self mutilation. I know that stuff. I don't know. I don't fit the profile in any of that. As a matter of fact, I'd tell you a story about when I was a little kid, I was sitting on the sidewalk behind our house and my mom was going in and out with laundry. I was watching these or ants on the sidewalk and she was stepping on them and I called her a murderer.


And that was like, you know, before anybody ever told me about like that. But I don't know. I don't know what caused me to do what I did. I just did it because I wanted to, I guess. Yeah, that's the next question I have.


How do you get from your a bouncing baby boy to being on death row? Do you ever think how the hell did I end up here?


All the time. All the time. Because I did the things that I wanted to do that I knew wasn't right. I couldn't explain to you why did it feel except for the fact. Because I wanted to.


Were you more driven by sex, anger or robbery? Well, the robbery thing that come into play, I could drive a person without killing them. The first murder I ever committed was for money and I was overseas. And it seemed like after that it just county executives family. Oh, it's weird. I have no arms in my childhood growing up. I thought about what it'd be like to kill somebody and that was at a pretty early age. But I never, ever thought that I'd actually do it.


So you're in prison for three murders, but how many murders if you committed?


Well, I know I killed thirty three. What we see typically is serial killers have always killed more people than the police know about. And Clyde Gibson has admitted to killing thirty three people. He's only convicted of three murders. There's 80000 to 100000 unsolved murders in this country. And so the reason why I started talking to serial killers is because I knew they killed more people than the police knew about. And I wanted to get them to talk to me.


They will confess to unsolved murders. I've also shot people from a distance that I could have killed them and maybe not. I'd go to the project and just sniper two people could they usually blamed it on a rival gang and jet over in Louisville, Kentucky.


And how many times you think you did that? I know each other people at least 20 times. I don't know. You know, I never really kept up with the news on what happened afterwards. In your 40s, you killed Karen Rodela.


Did you kill anybody before? Karen Rodela? Karen is one of three unfortunate victims Clyde was convicted of murdering.


Oh, yeah. Yeah. Tell me about your first murder in the United States. How old were you and what happened?


I would say it was 82.


You are 25 years old. OK, so what happens?


Most of the people that are killed, as far as I mean, that's the nicest way I can put it. There is just tramp's. I don't know how to put it any other way. That's the way Karen was. And that's one of the reasons I killed her. I killed her because you cheated on her husband with me. That's weird to say. But you told me a story about Karen Della, where you met her at a bar and she was with her husband.


Tell us how that goes down.


The story of how Clyde killed this poor woman is absolutely brutal. You've told it to me before. Why have them retell it? I would assume you're trying to get them to feel more comfortable, maybe open up a little bit more. Yes, I am growing closer to Clyde Gibson and he is starting to open up about some of the details of these crimes. And I know if I stay with him long enough, he's going to confess to not only one cold case, but we're hoping to get 15 to 30 cold case confessions.


In a moment, Clyde is going to describe some details that are so gruesome and graphic. Because of this, we chose to bleep out some of the most disturbing descriptions, well out of thin air at the bar by myself during that time. And all I was this Little Joe's talking to me, go out stabbing her husband comes up. Of course, I don't know who that was at. The damage came up on the other side of me and said, hey, man, that's my old lady.


You're going to look come along to me and start this. He he's in there. She whispered in my ear that after she takes him to work, she'll be back. That was the last time he'd seen it. Did you know when she came back that she would die that night? Well, I of I had a pretty good idea. I was there last night on Earth. Well, I did some really sick. Did you ever taken a bunch of pills?


And I had to share with me the joy that shared. So at that moment, I guess I'm working on that right. When I hit her, I hit her right. The government, just as it just started to mumbles out of a moment. I was after I killed her. Ever go and get her there? I heard. Do you have sex with her dead body? A couple of times? Yes. Or ran on my fingers. I mean, I'm a twisted person.


I'm listening to this stuff and I'm trying to have thick skin and be like, okay, what are the facts? But ultimately, it's terrifying. Yeah, these are images you cannot get out of your head. Do you try to keep emotion out of this? Is it hard to do that?


A lot of people ask me how I do this and how do I sleep at night. It's my calling. It's my purpose. This is what I was born to do. So I don't get emotional about it. I'm very aggressive. But you have to play their game. Did you ever take any trophies, Klyde, from your victims, like driver's license, jewelry or just body parts? I took a few driver's license, as a matter of fact, I think they found them and when they searched that place.


I think they found a Anglophones or something in their case. What do you feel like when you're in the midst of committing this crime? Are you excited? Does it give you a sense of power?


All of the above? Is it exciting?


It was for me. I'm sure it wasn't for them. Yeah. I mean, it just gives you a sense of empowerment. You're invincible and you do anything. The thing about it was I had done it so many times. The ways I got away with it was stuff that should've never happened. I've had so many stupid ass close calls where I should have been arrested. I should have been arrested two decades ago, and it happened to me all the time.


Phil, how is it that these guys can get away with murder for such a long time?


So the serial killers of a couple of things go to number one, they kill strangers. And number two, a lot of them kill outside of the area where they live.


So we know for a fact that when you killed Karen Hodel in 2002 and you got arrested for killing Stephany, Kurt and Christine with us in 2012, the three people you were convicted of murdering and you told them you killed many, many more. And they continue to say Clyde Gibson is lying.


Now, I say this. It was pretty much a routine and was usually about one a month, something like this.


And so between 2002, Karen Holder in 2012, Stephanie Kurk, that's 10 years. How many you think you killed in that 10 year span of.


I don't know, maybe 15, there's so many names together and it's crazy what states what areas do you think these victims are from?


Oh, they're from all over. You know how Illinois. Indiana. One girl I picked up was from Colorado.


So the typical M.O. of Clyde Gibson is you meet someone in a bar and you take them home. Right? What do you prefer? You kill them in your home or you kill them in your truck?


Well, usually in a stolen vehicle.


So you normally don't bring them home and kill. And that's pretty rare when you do that, right? Right. Well, the only reason that I killed Stephanie there at the house was just because my mother was in the hospital.


What year did your mother die?


My mother died in 2012. Wow.


So that's right. At the time of Stephanie Kirchen. Christine with us. So now you have the house to yourself, correct? Right.


So you have to sit in prison thinking to yourself, if I would have got rid of Christine, witness's body may not be in here, correct?


I wouldn't be in here. But, you know, it'd be to the point for people. Right. Like I told you and Wendy before or in the world, you know, I got no problem with my kid excuse me tomorrow and say, now, you've told me before that you welcome execution, you welcome death.


What would be your last statement?


I don't really know nothing other than the fact that I'm getting what I deserve.


At the same time, if they cut you loose today, you think you would still kill her? When I'm on death row talking to these killers, I kind of keep in mind who I'm talking to, I'll never I never forget that they all say they're not remorseful most of the time. And they all they say, release me today and I'll kill again.


I mean, so nothing's changed with Clyde Gibson is definitely the kind of guy who goes I 100 percent should be here. I should be put to death.


Yes. One of the rare ones that says I'm where I need to be, I'm a sick bastard, I want to die.


When I heard him go into detail, especially with, like, mutilating victims bodies after they were already deceased, to me that was very difficult to hear. And as a woman, the things that go through my head are what raises fear. It raises questions of, oh, my gosh, how do you avoid becoming a victim for one of these guys? Like, these are the things that come up for me as a woman when I hear any of these guys talk.


There hasn't been a major research project on serial killers since the 70s and 80s. I'm doing this. I'm talking to hundreds and hundreds of serial killers more than anybody else. And I think we need to have a better understanding of who these killers are because a lot of people don't know who they are. We're stuck in the 70s. We're stuck on Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy, and we got to come to this decade because serial killers have changed dramatically.


So I have a few calls scheduled this week with Clyde Gibson.


Every time I talk to him, I try to squeeze more information out of him. I'm going to start to now tell him I need his help. I've helped him a little bit. Now he needs to help me. And he's hinted that he wants to start talking about some of these cold cases. And then I'm going to talk to Detective Jeff Topping, who was at his arrest and see what Detective Topping has to say about the case. Hi, this is Dennis Quaid, and I want to tell you about a new show I've produced that I know you're going to love.


It's called The Pet Show. And, well, it's a show about pets and alternate universe full of strange and wonderful people who love and are quite possibly obsessed with their pets, talking to them about their pets and their relationship with animals. Finally, we've also made a bunch of special episodes focusing on incredible moments in pet history. That's right. The first of all, tell the tale of the acoustic kitty and the CIA incredible attempt to train cats to become spies.


Make sure you check out the pet show from audio. It's the podcast with a purpose.


Listen to the pet show on the radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And this is a prepaid call from William Gibson, an inmate at the Indiana State Prison.


Well, some. Clyde, how are you doing? I'm doing great.


Clyde Gibson has admitted to killing thirty three people. He's only convicted of three murders. He killed a 75 year old family friend and he gave them murder 10 years earlier because he wanted to show them that I've been kill him for at least a decade. And then he gave them another murder, a woman who was buried in his backyard. They didn't even believe she was there, but they found her. And he said, You think I've only killed three?


I've killed a lot more than that. So you've gotten in trouble, you came back to the U.S., you lived in Indiana, I assume, and what did you do? Well, I went back to work for the power company in Langley. Just this country's out of our eye and stuff like that. I did it the whole time. I was married to my wife right after I got out of Leavenworth. Me and her got married. How long were you married to her for?


We was married to a man before she divorced me when I was in prison over in Kentucky. So you were married for 14 years.


How did you get along with her? Did you have a normal marriage? What was it like?


We had a perfectly normal relationship other than the fact that I drank a lot and she would complain about that. But every time I got in trouble, she would blame it on my drinking.


You had normal relationship. You had normal sex with her, nothing out of the ordinary. You didn't try to choke her and nothing funny like that.


No. You were married, but then you were out killing other people, right?


She never had no clue about it. I mean, it's just funny. I mean, even my mom, the only one I really had a clue about it was my sister. My sister actually told me I had a dream that you had some moments filled and had to go to prison. Wow. She told me about that dream that wasn't too long after had put her on hold those. Before there could be a lot of these guys are just living normal lives in plain sight, having somewhat normal relationships, you never really know someone.


And until they're caught, I'm sure a lot of people in our lives were shocked.


A lot of people are shocked. They don't look like killers. They don't talk like killers. They don't act like killers. These guys live pretty normal lives. I mean, BTK, I mean, that's a perfect thing. Church president, Boy Scout leader married his high school sweetheart.


These guys are dangerous. Is there any other unsolved cases where there's people that they know their names? Are there any other big cases where people were looking for victims?


Yes. I want to come clean with a lot of them. There's some of them that I don't even remember exactly where they were.


But I'm going to try I want to help you solve these cases, bring closure. There's a lot of families probably that wonder what happened to their loved ones and be kind of a good way for you to go out is to just scrap all these things up.


Right. I understand that. Completely inhuman. I just have a few good qualities. I would never harm a child or not. So I just interviewed a guy from Illinois who kills little kids.


What is your take on that?


Well, I would like to cut its hair off. And we got one lesson here that when I was telling you about you might be all right about him one day. If I ever get a chance to get this through, put a role player in a little kids pants and set the house on fire with his room fire and the little kids pants, a five year old little boy and a sister was so scared she hid in the closet that smoke inhalation was just a letdown is bad enough.


But when you mess with the little kids, it's got the rest of their life. Yes, it's just irritating. I deserve to be executed and I've got no qualms with it. But this guy kills little kids and thinks he should be executed.


He has his own moral compass. It seems he has done all these horrible things, but he draws a line. And I just find that fascinating, that someone who's done such horrible things does have a moral compass of his own. What's your understanding? There is no understanding. I mean, there's a moral hierarchy like, oh, my gosh, child killers. I would strangle them if I got my hands on them on death row. Yet he's killed 33 people and done some crazy things.


But he loves his cat. He has a cat on death row and he wants us to get it adopted so it doesn't have to spend its life on death row. Clyde, do you have remorse for any of your crimes, really just one person, the older lady? Do you ever think about any of the victims?


Oh, yeah, absolutely. I remember a lot of them.


Hey, Jeff, are you here?


Yes, can you hear me, Detective Jeff Topping was one of the police officers who arrested Clyde Gibson. Hey, Jeff, what was your job? Who did you work for? For how long?


I work for the Ford County Sheriff's Department for over 20 years.


Let's go back before William Clyde Gibson is arrested. What do you know about him before the murders?


He likes to steal cars. Were you surprised Clyde was a serial killer?


Yes, for sure. Clyde Gibson has killed three people. He's a serial killer. He claims he's killed thirty three, some law enforcement, that he's only killed three.


And some things he may have killed more. What is your thought?


I think it started in 2002. You don't wait until 2000, eight, 10, 12, and then just start up again. I do believe that he's killed others. I don't know how many. There's a couple people that he's probably had all. But do I believe thirty something? I don't I don't know. He's on death row.


Obviously, he's never going to get out. He's not really remorseful. He said he deserves execution. Does it make you realize, as a detective, as a police officer, that killers could be anybody?


Yes. I mean, it shocks you. I just hope he don't wait till the last minute to try to strike a deal. And it's too late. Like Ted Bundy could have some valuable information to solve other crimes. I don't know if he'll die with all the information or if he'll break down. If you some credible information that may help us. That's our struggle.


That's our challenge. Right. Like we know Ted Bundy went to the grave. He probably killed one hundred people and he went to the grave with that information. Our goal is to try to get him to talk. And, you know, when you're dealing with a psychopathic serial killer, it is like walking on eggshells. Then we're hoping now that is going to come clean.


So, Jeff, we will let you know if he does. And you're always the first person I call. We're hoping he's going to lead us to multiple bodies. You've always been great. Thanks, Jeff.


OK, thank you. Christine White is comes to your house, your last victim, and how does that go down? Well, they say that I called her, but I don't remember her in agriculture overacted. I went to her house anytime I wanted to. I kind of went to her house. I'd been over a times.


This is your mom's friend. She's 75 years old, right?


Right after her husband died, we actually had sex together. And it was a mutual thing. I never told anybody. And she never told them that.


Why did she come to your house that day? I guess just to check on me, because she had been doing that ever since my mom passed away. And just so happened that I had another body there just from Omar. I didn't know the children I was putting her up at or plastic. How did you kill her? Same way. Strangulation.


Yeah, I loaded her in the van. I took her to the river.


So when you were in the midst of cutting her up, that's when Christine White House came over and stumbled across her body. Is that how it went?


Right after I killed Chris. I used her van to take that body away.


And then what did you do with Krista's body was stuffed her in the garage after I cut her breasts and or one of them and put it in my pocket, took it with me. The van was clean because she was all wrapped up in plastic and after in the river. But Christine, I put her in the garage after I'd done all of the stuff I was going through with her. Then I went up to Hooters and I was still in her van.


And when I came back home, I stayed out too long. I was getting drunk. Right now is knowing that I needed to get Chris out there and get rid of her. I mean, something with her mouth. But I got so drunk, let time get past me. And it was like two o'clock somewhere around there.


And again, Detective Jeff topping. Well, it started out I was notified by the city homicide at Gibson's residence where he was staying at his mother's residence and that they was looking for him. And supposedly there have been several sightings of him and that belong to the victim. Yeah, go ahead.


Keep telling me. I was driving back in a van and the cops are all going to house and I to call. And they occasionally when I talk to the chief of detectives at Albany City and they gave me a description and one of the city officers had spotted him and got in a pursuit. And I come in a Wal-Mart parking lot on the north end and they come in on the south end and I come at a pat on Faustine stops. He was sitting in the driver's seat and he had started in the car.


So he was for something in the car. So we told that he might be armed and it ended up being on a witness. Witnesses arrest that he cut off.


What he was saying was, you're not thinking he's a serial killer of 33 people. You just thinking, oh, my God, Clyde's gone too far.


Yeah, we didn't know why he had done it. Hello. This is a prepaid call from William Gibson.


Anything you like to say to the victim's families if they listen to this?


Well, I mean, it wouldn't do no good to say you're sorry. And that's because promotion. I'm really nice. I'm just being honest. I'm not glad I did it because I could. And there's no reasoning behind it. Most everybody wants to know why. There is no reason why. There's no reason to do that to anybody. I don't care what anybody says. No know me, right. I'm exactly where I should be. I tell you that.


There's no question about it. I don't think I'm such a terrible person. I'm not a good person. I love animals. That's not another one of the profile on that kind of stuff for me is completely wrong. Right? If a person wants to meet me at a bar, you would never know that I'm like I am. Nobody was anybody would be susceptible to me attacking. And you know what I mean?


Really, when I walk outside, I might be walking a freakin serial killer because at least 100 serial killers moving around.


I know you've definitely if you're in California or you bumped into serial killers in L.A., I'm always wondering on a daily basis, like, are you are you a serial killer? You never know.


But once the lion decides to kill you, you're done. Clyde, where are most of the victims from? Where do your victims come from?


Fear of everything. That's just dumb luck or bad luck for them. A lot of them like that. Elizabeth Bannister, she was just just happen to be one unlucky one, you know, just a stupid thing with the way we've met. How did you meet her? She was walking down the street and I picked her up and took her home. She just a regular little house there.


That was a confession. That is what we're shooting for. That's what our goal is, and they may just mention it or breeze over it, but once we get that, I immediately whip out my computer and say, is there such a person as Elizabeth Bannister missing? What are the details on this case? And then we quickly realize, you know, we researched can he have done this? And guess what? There wasn't Elizabeth Bannister. It is in his area.


She used to live in New Albany, his hometown. And we realized that this is real. So the jet. So listen, man, call me tomorrow afternoon, I might give you a call tomorrow, OK? Thanks for. Hey, Dennis Quaid here, and I want to tell you about the orange tree now, I have recently started a podcast network called Audio Up. And much as I prepare for movie roles, I've been researching the podcast landscape and listening to hundreds of podcasts.


One in particular stopped me in my tracks, The Orange Tree. It's a true crime podcast series filled with such authenticity and care by Haley Butler and Tina Thomas, two journalists who were University of Texas students when they started reporting on the story. It's about the 2005 murder of a young woman named Jennifer Cave near the University of Texas at Austin campus. What struck me most was the thorough examination of the case and the exclusive access granted to these two young reporters.


What makes this true crime story so unique is their perspective. There are two young women who are the same age as Jennifer Cave, and it very similar points in their lives. The orange tree is engaging. It's thoughtful and really, really powerful. Take a listen to the Orange Tree or an Apple podcast, Spotify Stitcher or wherever you listen to podcast today. You know, this is a prepaid call from William Gibson, an inmate at the Indiana State Prison.


Here's what I want to ask you, Clyde. Are you positive you killed Elizabeth Bannister in Evansville, Indiana, which was a very high profile case?


Yes, Elizabeth Bannister is a cold case murder that dates back 20 years. So we know the details of the case. We know that Elizabeth was killed inside of her home, which was split up into little apartments. We know she was stabbed to death. We also know that the perpetrator escaped without being seen. My next step now is to talk to William Clyde Gibson and to see what he has to say about the case and see if his story matches up with the story the media released.


A lot of your crimes have to run together. How do you know of her specifically?


Well, I just remember this mainly because of what she looked like. How do you know that was her name, though? Well, she told me her name when I first met her. And I just remember there's a lot of details I don't remember just because of the time there's so many other people that I killed. It's hard to keep it all in line.


Was it a big case? Like was it on the news and stuff? Well, you know, I don't really know because I went back to the oil, so we don't get much news down there. You know, I mean. Walk me through it. You're literally from the very beginning moment, you laid eyes on Elizabeth Bannister, where how I mean, walk me through the whole story. And so you left.


Well, like I said, I've just seen her on the side of the road waving her hands in Iraq. I've picked her up.


And then, you know, the from there, you picked you up. You took her to her house, right?


Right. As far as I can remember, I mean, like I said, I was I was so worried I might not be exactly correct, but I remember great big mirrors or anything. I'm pretty sure they're OK. But it was like a like a big apartment building, like a house, but it was a bunch of apartments. So I thought it seemed like to me it was nighttime when we went. Yeah, I have I can't I don't recall that much either.


And did you kind of walk into the apartment with her?


There was other people around, too. I mean, it wasn't like, you know, it was Incognegro type stuff. I mean, you know, it was there was outside, but they it was just weird. I mean, it should happen like that many times where I could have been go, you know. Right. All right. And pretty much left out and hand. And then you had her up and you stabbed you stabbed her. So you just like kind of have the feeling, I think I can kill this girl, must follow her to do this.


Yeah, yeah.


I mean, that's how it works. And that's how I did most of. I mean, I just go out with that mindset and that's what ended up happening. I never knew exactly who is going to be like me.


Right. Do you remember stabbing her and where you stabbed and how many times?


If I sit around and think about it for a while, it might come back to me. I mean, I see I see it in my life.


And, you know, I mean, when you left, anybody see you leave? Well, I wasn't really paying attention, but I'm sure that people did seem to know, get the hell out of there, got in your truck and went home. Yeah.


And the family's been searching for the killer for a long time, and they are going to be very, very excited. There's a younger sister. Her life has been destroyed.


And I can't wait to call her and tell her you're talking about a call that I don't know if anyone out there listening would ever want to me. Yeah. How do you do it?


You have to be very careful because these people are very, very hurt. They're going to be very suspicious. They don't believe anything until they see more facts and stuff.


So I'll be very careful with her. We begin tonight with a long time unsolved case, 20 years after the murder of an Evansville woman. Family members are still searching for answers. Elizabeth was a great person.


She had a huge heart. And she she loved everyone.


Elizabeth Bannister was found stabbed to death inside her Washington Avenue apartment in Evansville in January of 2000, more than 20 years later. Now, Elizabeth's sister, Sarah, has been active on social media, creating a Facebook page, working to bring justice for her sister and peace of mind for her family.


Hey, Sarah, are you there? I'm here. This is Phil Chalmers. I won't take much of your time. Is it OK if I record this interview? Sure. I sent you an email not too long ago telling you I wanted to talk to you about your sister, Elizabeth. Yes.


On January 19th, 2000, the morning of January 20th, your sister was murdered in Evansville, Indiana. Right. I have some news for you. I found Elizabeth's killer. His name is William Clyde Gibson, he's already in prison, he will spend the rest of his life there and he's on death row. This is what I do. Our goal is to bring closure for you, right? Like. You just want to know why did you do it?


What made you do it right? Right. Like and you get the same answer, but it's unanswered questions. Just live within you. What I want if he is, in fact the troopers and that murdered my sister, I want to see him face to face. I want to talk to him and get his insight of why he did what he did. It doesn't matter what he says, why he did what he did. It's still wrong. However, I have always said and I've always told the Lord that I'm going to forgive this person, whoever did it, I'm going to forgive them for what they did.


The last haunting words of me and my sister together, I made a promise to her that I would somehow keep her alive and maybe one day they find them and maybe they would. So, Phil, what does this feel like right now after talking with Sarah? Man, I feel for I can't relate to that.


I've never had a relative murdered, but I can't imagine the pain you would have where it stays with you for you if for the rest of your life.


So for me, why I do what I do. There are families that are hurting and we kind of forget about them. When we do these investigations and we do these interviews for me, it brings me into reality. My next step is doing what Sarah requested. I can arrange a face to face meeting with Clyde and Sarah due to covid, so I will ask Clyde if he'd like to speak to her on the phone.


I think I can get him to agree to that. Hey, Sarah. Yes, what would you do if I can bring you two together on a phone call? I will set up that call for you. Would you ask him why would you with the GOLBY really? Oh, yeah.


There's many questions that I'd ask him for sure.


I want you to have that opportunity and over the phone. If you do, I'll start to begin to set that up.


All right. I will. All right. Take care. All right. Bye bye. Hey, Clyde, how are you? I'm all right. Hey, listen, I'm here with Sarah. Sarah is Elizabeth's sister, and she wants to just ask you a couple questions and talk to you. We just want to make sure you're OK. Are you OK with that? Yeah.


Hello there. Hello, how are you? I'm all right, how are you? Angry, but I am not angry. I am very. What I want to understand is 20 years ago, if I had to live for 20 years, all I had was things that I had my life. And look, I can tell you this, I'm just I'm sorry you don't have your sister no more. I mean, I can't say that I'm sorry for the crimes I committed because most of them I'm really not I don't have that in me and I'm not going to sit here and lie to you.


You know what I mean?


I guess I want to ask you, you know, by I mean, if there's any way you can tell me why why I like her.


Well, it wasn't nothing against her personally. I'm going to tell you, this is something that I haven't even really expressed to feel or when my thing was I got out of prison April 5th, 1999. Right. And when I got out, I was just I wanted revenge. I mean, I'm just going to be honest. I mean, it's not like I wasn't already doing it, but all it did was spiked my my anger toward everything, you know, and that's the reason my murder spiked so much and from 1990 to 2000.


Tell me how how you got access to the best of my ability, remember? I mean, I was high as I could be. You know, the best thing I can remember is that I seen her standing on the road waving her arms. And that's the time I had to read 95 Chevrolet pickup. And I just remember pulling over and talking to her and we went out. I mean, this happened, you know. I've got no excuses, you know what I mean is this when things that happened so much, you make it bad or just just it just happened.


I didn't know you had nothing to do with that at all. It's like I said, it was just complete revenge. I mean, the you know, whoever came in contact with me, it was just pure revenge. You know, if I thought they was in any way, you know, any kind of, you know. Any any kind of animosity towards a male, you know, if I thought they had any of that venom, I just I just went off and I mean, it didn't even have to be real, you know what I mean?


It just had to exist in my head, you know what I mean? I mean, I'm trying to find the best I can, but I don't know if I'm doing that.


I have lived with this pain for over 20 years, 20 years. And I don't think you understand how much pain bring somebody.


Yeah, I do. I do. Believe me, I do. I was like I said, I understand because I've lost people to. You don't see me go around killing people because my sister was murdered and they kill everybody else because of that.


OK, you know, I mean, I realize I'm a piece of shit. I don't have no problem admitting that, you know, something that's true. I'm going to tell you, she didn't deserve it. She was one person that did not deserve the kind of leadership of that. But my sister did not deserve that. She did not. She was a great person and had a huge heart. She would give you the shirt on her back. It's like I said, I am I am sorry that you don't have your sister.


I will tell you that. I mean, and and as I said before, I considered I mean, I'm glad I got a chance to speak with you anyway. I mean, and like I said, I'm not I'm not trying to fight the death penalty. I deserved what I got coming many times over. So, you know, if you get any satisfaction out of them, execute me. I would be mad, too. If it was my people, I would be mad.


But that being said, I just want to thank you for taking the time to talk to me. I really do appreciate it. I would like to meet you in person, and I would like to talk face to face if you are willing to do that. Not now because of that, but. Right. I understand and I have no problem with that. I mean, I'm willing to do whatever if it'll help you out, OK? I mean, whatever you want.


Thanks for listening to where the bodies are buried, there is a lot more coming your way this season.


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Well, hey there, hey, Dennis Quaid is here. That's right. And guess what? I have a podcast. It's called The Denison's, and I think you should listen. I'm having some really cool conversations with some really interesting people, like music legend, Billy Ray Cyrus, housewife in Beverly Hills, Garcelle Bouvier and many, many more.


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